Template:Did you know nominations/Alfred Beckley

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Orlady (talk) 18:25, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Alfred Beckley

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... that Alfred Beckley (pictured), the founder of Beckley, West Virginia, found the townsite the "perfect wilderness"?

Reviewed: 2013–14 RFU Championship
Comment:

Created by PumpkinSky (talk). Self nominated at 22:16, 2 June 2013 (UTC).

This DYK? nomination fits all of the required criteria. Thus, I am saying that this DYK? nomination is good to go right now. Futurist110 (talk) 00:54, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Please explain why this is a reliable source; it appears to be self-published and there is no indication it meets our requirements for reliability. It is used to cite four statements in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:57, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

It appears that the actual source is a researcher who aggregates other resources; the site itself IS hosted on the University of Chicago's webserver, which says much in itself, and some of his research on other topics is linked via PBS' NOVA, which is generally viewed as credible. See here. this ref has a (in small print) citation to its original source; Easily passes basic WP:V for the material sourced. Montanabw^(talk) 19:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Please reference WP:SPS or WP:SELFPUB; how does this self-published site meet our requirements? If there is a lead to the original source, it could be located and consulted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Sandy, please follow your own advice "Now, now, do try and be nice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:45, 25 May 2013 (UTC)". PumpkinSky talk 00:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:SPS and WP:SELFPUB??? OK - I'm lost here. Since Beckley died in 1888, he obviously didn't have a thing to do with the website, so you're obviously trying to point to something else. I'm guessing that you question Thayer as being knowledgeable about the topic? Perhaps you could simply ask him if you have questions as to his sources or knowledge? — Ched : ? 01:16, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

addendum: Even though he's not edited Wikipedia since 2010, there are various email links available to contact him. TBH though - I didn't know we questioned educational institutions website credentials to such an extent. — Ched : ? 01:21, 5 June 2013 (UTC)f

We already have the necessary info here (already linked above), indicating the need to address Wikipedia's reliability guidelines wrt that webpage. At any rate, this has now been corrected by consulting and citing the original source. Perhaps those who took the discussion off-topic with personalization would care to strike the unnecessary remarks, and work towards helping assure that DYK upholds reliability guidelines in future nominations and reviews. Best regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:40, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

May I interrupt the factional food fight to introduce some facts into the discussion? This is clearly not a self-published source, as the style is that of a 19th-Century biographical compilation, so it is quite unlikely to have been published by the original author. By clicking on the link at the bottom of the page titled "Cullum's Register" (I highly recommend such practices for discovering the provenance of individual pages), we discover that this is, in fact, an etext of George W. Cullum's "Biographical Register of the Officers and Graduates of the United States Military Academy" and should therefore be cited as such, rather than as "University of Chicago". (That Mr. Thayer has transcribed the text or that the University of Chicago hosts it do not seem particularly germane to its reliability.) Choess (talk) 02:35, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Works for me. Will do that later today.PumpkinSky talk 09:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Specifically it's on pages 305-306 of the Cullum register from West Point. Any more questions Sandy?PumpkinSky talk 14:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

If it's 1888, wouldn't it be on Archive.org? We could just cite the book there, I believe. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:42, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Maybe. The U. Chicago page is a direct copy of the Cullum book, which all can see if you go to the url I just added to the article. It's from the West Point library.PumpkinSky talk 15:48, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not joining in the "factional food fight", but please be sure to conform with WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. The original source should be consulted and cited, and we should not be taking the word of a self-published and declared non-expert just because his website is hosted at a University. I'll leave it to others to make sure this happens (non-reliable sources is an ongoing issue at DYK)-- unwatching now since I don't see the need for food to be flying over such a straightforward matter. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:59, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Fascinating, given who first "shouted 'food fight'" (and it wasn't Choess, who posted a very calm and well reasoned response). I'm sure Psky can tweak the footnote a wee bit to clarify things. But really, instead of challenging the RS, a person who truly understands WP:AGF maybe could have done precisely what Choess did and take a few minutes to track this down and verify it for oneself. But no, it's far more useful to post a snarky attack, then telling others who try, in good faith, to explain things that they haven't read guidelines (with the usual implication that they are, therefore, stupid), thus creating a shitstorm of unneeded drama that (as usual) generates more heat than light. Can we approve this for DYK now, please? Montanabw^(talk) 16:21, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

In addition to what MTBW said, if Sandy had read the above comments, she'd also have seen the change is already made in the article.PumpkinSky talk 16:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Reinstating tick as the issue has been addressed; the original source has been included, with URL, so as to comply with WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. All other sources appear reliable. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:37, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Crisco, and thanks for checking the others as well. Hopefully this exercise will be instructive in helping assure future nominations and reviews take care to comply with WP:RS. Best regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:06, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Very instructive indeed... Montanabw^(talk) 19:07, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Sandy, how damned sanctimonious of you. The lessons you should have learned here have been totally lost on you. Have you checked your precious MEDRS stuff for compliance lately?PumpkinSky talk 20:10, 5 June 2013 (UTC)