User talk:Choess

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Catenary skids

Thanks for calling my attention to this. You're correct in your assumption that I'd be interested, but as I'm more of a track-and-structures person, I haven't noticed or studied this mechanism in any detail. Please share photos! Elizabeth Linden Rahway (talk) 14:29, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Sheriffs of Devon - date style to use

Hi Choess, over on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:High_Sheriff_of_Devon#New_style_or_old_style_years_before_1752? I am seeking some advice on dating issues - in particular around the use of old style or new style dates before 1752. I would welcome your thoughts over there if you have time to comment.NHSavage (talk) 09:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Metasequoia heerii has been accepted

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A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	:) Starzoner (talk) 15:13, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

	Happy New Year!
	Hello Choess: Did you know ... that back in 1885, Wikipedia editors wrote Good Articles with axes, hammers and chisels? Thank you for your contributions to this encyclopedia using 21st century technology. I hope you don't get any unnecessary blisters. Starzoner (talk) 15:16, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

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I wish you a prosperous 2021! Starzoner (talk) 15:16, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Baldwin, Pennsylvania (disambiguation)

The article Baldwin, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

After excluding the two redlinks and the township entry, which isn't known as "Baldwin, Pennsylvania", there's only one valid disambiguation page entry here.

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From WT:PLANTS

I'm relatively new to the plants wikiproject. It's possible I don't know what I'm doing, or that I do but people won't give me credit for knowing what I'm doing. Time will tell I guess. I've written a bunch of ideas down but I won't dump them all at once ... I'm trying to think of whether there's a compromise that will preserve most of the 4-page list and not require reviewers to cover the same ground again ... I can't afford to piss them off. Thinking. - Dank (push to talk) 01:04, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

@Dank: I still feel a bit muddled trying to understand the list criteria here. OK, so listing all plant genera, or even all vascular plant genera, with etymologies, is an enormous job, and it makes sense to bite off a smaller piece of work. But the way that list has been pared down is to make a somewhat arbitrary choice of source. It feels a bit like the list was constructed first to make it "FL-able", and only secondarily to answer a natural question from a reader. If the scope of the list were limited to cultivated plant genera, do you think that would be manageable? It sounds like Stearn attempts to be comprehensive, so further additions would probably be manageable, and "What are all the genera of plants in cultivation?" seems like a more natural question to ask than "What are all the genera of plants listed in Stearn's?" (By contrast, "What are all the genera of plants named after people?", which you're also working on answering, seems like a natural and reasonable question.)

I'd be happy to act as a sounding board for further ideas. Extracting data from print sources and organizing it, as you're doing, is the lifeblood of Wikipedia, and we have far too few people doing that in comparison with other ancillary activities. I would hate to see you discouraged from doing so. Choess (talk) 02:39, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

That sounds very encouraging, and is largely in line with my thinking. It's late ... I'm going to beaver away at something gnomish and give you an answer tomorrow. - Dank (push to talk) 02:55, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Suppose you could have any one sublist of genera you want, updated annually. Would it be "all genera in cultivation"? Something else? And if you know, where would we pull the list from? - Dank (push to talk) 03:32, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, personally, I'd like a list of fern genera, but that's my personal itch and I'd be the one maintaining it anyway. (Still waiting for Mineirella to hit IPNI, but I'm sure they're still recovering from the COVID furloughs.) That may not be the best one to suggest, in part because there are differences of opinion between POWO and much of the fern community. But "all genera in cultivation" sounds like a reasonable list, and maybe the current 4-part list could be transformed into that without losing too much of its current character.

Looking at pykew, it looks like a bot could poll POWO occasionally for names "added" since the last run, which presumably would generate a list of newly recognized genera, but I don't have the programming chops to implement that. I wonder if that would be a good addition to a Plants project page somewhere? Might encourage people to crank out stubs on genera as they're published/recognized. Choess (talk) 03:54, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a "cultivation" parameter at pykew ... do you know where i could get a list of genera that are in some sense in cultivation? - Dank (push to talk) 03:59, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. My idea behind using pykew is that you'd be able to pull up new additions to the database–it would be a tool for keeping up with newly added genera of any sort. Is Stearn's meant to be comprehensive? That was why I suggested "in cultivation" as a criterion; it should track pretty closely with the existing lists, but it might accumulate some additional genera that were missed from things like the Fern Grower's Manual sitting next to me. Do you need an existing comprehensive source so that the list can pass FL without questions as to whether it is, in fact, complete? That might be troublesome. Choess (talk) 04:13, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Roughly speaking, my answer to that question is that the plants project can choose whatever criteria they want and whatever source they want, and I'll work with that. But see User talk:PresN#Lists that change annually. What I'm looking for at the moment is to understand your idea of what "genera currently in cultivation" looks like, so I can compare it to the Stearn lists. Btw, I've decided: after the project has selected what new series of lists they want and that series has been promoted at FL, then you guys can do whatever you like with the Stearn list ... burn it to the ground, de-feature it, rename it, tweak it, or keep it as is, I don't care. (Added: I don't care because I think it's likely that if a new FL succeeds with heavy overlap with the Stearn list, then any confusion or conflict over the Stearn list is likely to be cleared up, and it probably won't matter what we do with it.) Also, I need to mention one constraint: some of what I'm doing with my current (probably four-part) list at FLC is done best if I do it from memory, so I have to at least finish writing those four lists before I can work on a new list. Won't take more than 3 weeks, I think, then I can work on something else, but they might not be promoted for 2 months (or never). - Dank (push to talk) 15:25, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

I guess I thought "genera currently in cultivation" was sort of self-explanatory--if I had a list in hand, I'd put it in the article! I guess I'd say to make it manageable, accepted genera should be added to the list only when they come from some sort of tertiary reference or catalog of cultivated taxa like Stearn's. That would avoid getting entries shoved in on the basis of anecdote or one-off reports of cultivation. Hopefully that wouldn't add very much to the current lists but I don't know. Choess (talk) 02:17, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Okay, can you suggest a next step here? - Dank (push to talk) 03:00, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I've asked for feedback in the current thread at WT:PLANTS#List of plant genus names. - Dank (push to talk) 13:24, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

My quick look at the APIs at Kew suggests the added and modified fields/properties are part of ipni API rather than powo API. I don't think this would help track changes to the POWO lists. —  Jts1882 | talk  19:27, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Could still work anyway. You would need human intermediation at some point (I don't view this as a completely automated process), but being able to pull what new genera were added to IPNI in the past, say, 6 months at least gives one a basis to start from. Choess (talk) 02:17, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Banksia and Kuntze

Hello Choess,

I noticed you have added material about Otto Kuntze's rejection of the name Banksia to five articles. There are 181 articles about Banksia species and 70 or so about their subspecies. I was wondering if you intended to add the same information to all 250-odd of those articles or if not, on what basis did you choose the five (so far)? Gderrin (talk) 21:27, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

@Gderrin: I was originally doing a little FAR-inspired cleanup on Banksia aemula, and noticed that section was somewhat thinly sourced. I dug up the references and did some wordsmithing ("challenged" made it sound like a judicial duel to me) and wound up with what you see. I copied it to a few articles at the head of the alphabet and then paused, realizing I should get the wording just right before deploying it in bulk. Let me think a little about the wording and I'll drop a notice on the WikiProject Banksia page. I think there will be about 47 pages where this applies (including the page on the genus). Choess (talk) 21:47, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks for your quick response! My feeling is that adding information about the name of a genus to every species in that genus is not really appropriate, especially since in this case, about half of the species (95?) of Banksia were previously dryandras until 2007. Seems a bit like "padding" in an exam response - making an answer look impressive because it's long. Gderrin (talk) 22:15, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Could you do a GAN review?

Choess, Casliber suggested I ask you if you would be willing to do the GAN review for Symphyotrichum lateriflorum. I tagged you in the talk page. I am readily available to interact during the review process, and look forward to input. --Eewilson (talk) 03:22, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Request for peer review help

Hi Choess. I hope you are doing well and staying safe during these times! Apologize to bother and posting a random request. I have just started to work on a stub (Fontainea Venosa)and had added some sections. I am trying my best to get the article to B class hopefully. Knowing your expertise, I would love if you can help me to review and left a comment on what I can do to improve my edits. I hope that this is okay, but no pressure if you are busy. That is completely fine and understandable :) Hope to hear from you soon. The article is Fontainea Venosa

Thank you so much :)Sparklingkull (talk) 04:08, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Happy Adminship Anniversary!

Wishing Choess a very happy adminship anniversary on behalf of the Birthday Committee! Best wishes! CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 07:28, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

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Seventeenth anniversary on Wikipedia

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TFA nom for Adiantum viridimontanum

I have nominated Adiantum viridimontanum to be today's featured article on an unspecified date. As the article's FAC nominator, you are invited to its TFA nomination page to comment on its suitability. Thanks and happy editing. Z1720 (talk) 19:25, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Nomination of Sebastian Browne, 12th Marquess of Sligo for deletion

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Donogh O'Brien, 4th Earl of Thomond

Dear Choess. Long not heard from you. I hope you are fine and still enjoying Wikipedia. I am looking at the article Donogh O'Brien, 4th Earl of Thomond I find that it was you who added, on 29 July 2010 [1], the mention "descended by acceleraton" to the 2nd row (the one for Baron Ibrickan) of the succession box. It is the only mention of this acceleration in the article. On what did you base it? Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 15:12, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Adiantum viridimontanum scheduled for TFA

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October songs

Thank you today for the article, introduced (in 2011): "I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it completely and accurately discusses this rare fern. I am confident that I have addressed all relevant literature. The article was recently passed as a good article by Ucucha, who opined that it might well go forward to FAC. Most sources are peer-reviewed botanical literature, as well as an information sheet published by a reputable botanical organization. The photograph of A. viridimontanum was taken by me at one of the sites described by Zika & Dann (1985), so I'm fairly confident it has the correct species."! - I like to have the pictured DYK on the same page ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:05, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

	The Half Barnstar
	For making great points in a difficult AfD! Curbon7 (talk) 00:38, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Choess!

Happy New Year!

Choess,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
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Tagging of stubs

Hi Choess, I am not so much into the latin language and the scientific classification terms and I believe most aren't either. There is no explanation to the latin scientific terms and I believe a tag is needed. What kind of tag would you suggest? Lead to short ok for you?

Paradise Chronicle (talk) 04:43, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle: While I do not think these stubs are very useful, I don't think they need to be tagged as anything other than stubs (which implies that they need to be expanded). I have seen many of them created by others and do not remember seeing them get tagged as "Technical", "Lead too short", etc., so I think most people are not very much bothered by them. When I look at Oxyrhopus erdisii, I do not necessarily know how to interpret the Latin name and all the information in the taxobox, but I know that is there because of the requirements of binominal nomenclature and Linnaean taxonomy. Reading on I learn that it is a snake and it comes from Peru. That is not very much, but the article is after all a stub.

Out of curiosity, do you feel that an article like methyl isoeugenol also needs tagging of this kind? I am trying to understand why you want to tag stubs about species especially. If I knew how you felt about other articles that are technical and not very informative to most readers, I might understand better. Choess (talk) 05:21, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, bothered is now a big word. But I see the stub can be expanded, I believe very few people recommend reading a wikipedia article after having read a stub like this. And the chance it gets expanded rises if tagged. Then a project that focuses on expansion (of lead, of body etc.) can consider it. For many fields Wikipedia has become the reference per se, the first to be consulted and the first recommended one if you look for it online which most people do now. Also, if you check the source, you'll see that there is a lot of (also interesting) information more to be added. For any backlog drive for expansion the stub would be an easy prey. At least National Geographic and Yale University are two wls that could be added to the article. The article could be better integrated within wikipedia. The same I have observed also in other species stubs.

And concerning your creation, I also believe some sort of tag would help. It says even less to me than the one on the snake.:) Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle: I'm sorry, that wasn't meant to be a trap! I had that as an example of a relatively technical article, and I forgot that I wrote it, probably to fill a redlink years ago. My overall point was that articles on very narrow, specialized subjects are often rather technical, because only people with some background will want to look up that specific subject. Wikipedia:Writing better articles#Provide context for the reader suggests this (in my opinion): "An article entitled 'Use of chromatic scales in early Baroque music' is likely to be read by musicians, and technical details and terms are appropriate, linking to articles explaining the technical terms. On the other hand, an article entitled 'Baroque music' is likely to be read by laypersons who want a brief and plainly written overview, with links to available detailed information." To give other examples, when I look at Esculenta's articles (which I don't believe were created by AI, although I haven't dug extremely deeply to check), I think they tell you more or less all there is to know about that species of lichen—and yet I would have to get out my big lichen book and look up a certain amount of vocabulary to get a good picture in my mind of what the article is talking about. Math articles are similar (to me): some of them are not really comprehensible to me, but there is not much that can be done for the lay reader without repeating a textbook's worth of background in each article. For stubs like the snake and the chemical, they might be more accessible if someone expanded them and wrote a good lead, but by definition stubs are waiting to be expanded just like that. I don't think adding another tag would make the stubs get expanded faster; everyone knows that there are many, many stubs that need to get expanded, but doing that is a lot of work and few people are capable of doing it for any one subject area.

To give another example from my writing, I do like to produce full articles rather than stubs when I write about species. Argyrochosma jonesii is a recent one. It probably cannot be expanded much further at all. For someone who is not obsessed about ferns, much of the article is probably not very understandable: hopefully the lead is useful, and for this one I could get photos, which (even to me) are much more explanatory. But for someone familiar with ferns, I think the article is very useful, because they can read it carefully and distinguish it from similar species.

In general, I think all of us will find stubs in unfamiliar subject areas more confusing and uninformative than stubs in familiar subject areas, but I'm not sure additional tagging helps with the underlying problem (we need many editors who understand subjects well enough to write informative articles). Choess (talk) 13:38, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you

Just wanted to note I saw all the recent botany stub sorting you did and appreciate that. Steven Walling • talk 04:45, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of List of eldest sons of earls in the peerages of Britain and Ireland for deletion

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Thank you

Thank you for your assistance with my Samuel Richards article. I appreciate it greatly and I'm glad he is finally getting the recognition he deserves! Decifix (talk) 02:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@Decifix: I'm sorry your draft got caught in chancery so long, and I'm glad I spotted it. The Articles for Creation process can be very finicky about these things. Sometimes it's easier to submit a partially finished article with full references (but enough content to show clearly that the subject is notable) and continue to add to it once it goes from draft to article.

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New Jersey is pretty quiet at present, but Hurricanehink and Tinton5 have both expressed an interest in South Jersey topics in the past. I have a set of Beck's books, and a number of miscellaneous resources on the mid-Atlantic iron industry, and would be happy to help with future articles. Choess (talk) 02:38, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I plan to hopefully expand to other members of the Richards Family. Jesse Richards for Batsto and William Richards for Batsto as well. I'd love to collaborate if you're interested! Decifix (talk) 02:59, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure thing. Looking at "Iron in the Pines", I think there's sufficient material for a freestanding article on both of them. The other members of the family might be more difficult to bring to freestanding articles, but an article on the Richards family as a whole could probably be supported from Pierce's 1964 book and other miscellaneous references. Choess (talk) 03:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I have a few different sources that I would use for an article on Jesse Richards. "Iron in the Pines," "Heart of the Pines," plus "Family Empire in Jersey Iron."

These are really the main sources I use, but I'm also the historian for Atsion so I have a lot of personal knowledge about the family that I incorporate. Decifix (talk) 22:51, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Jesse Richards

Hey! I plan to begin an article on Jesse Richards, the ironmaster at Batsto Iron Works. Did you want to collaborate on that? Decifix (talk) 19:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

@Decifix: Yes, I'd be happy to help. What would you like me to do? Also, in response to your comment in the previous thread, we have to be careful here about what Wikipedia calls "Original research". At least in theory, anything that gets added to the encyclopedia should be traceable to a reliable, published source. (There is some leeway in citing primary sources, but that should probably be used with discretion.) Of course, that background knowledge can inform what comes out of published sources (e.g., if we know a particular statement by Pierce is incorrect, we're not compelled to repeat it). That said, if you were to publish novel findings in a book or pamphlet, your official position would make it likely that we could cite that as a suitable source. (Yes, this is all very baffling when you're trying to focus on disseminating correct information, but Wikipedia has its own peculiar customs.) Choess (talk) 20:08, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

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