Talk:Zimbabwe/Archive 3

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Archive 3

Archive 4

GA Review: Failed

I have reviewed this article according to the requirements of the GA criteria and have failed the article because the below issues should be addressed.

1. Y"The constitutional changes went into effect on January 1, 1988, with Robert Mugabe as President." Reword the last half of the sentence to "electing Robert..." or "establishing Robert..." or something to that effect.
2. Y"Under the leadership of current president, Mugabe..." Reword to "...leadership of President Mugabe..."
3. Y"Political opponents and critics of Mugabe formed the Movement for Democratic Change in 1999, campaigned for an end to "Mugabe's Reign of Terror."" Reword to "1999, to campaign...".
4. YGo through the article and make sure that all inline citations go directly after the punctuation with no spaces in between.
5. YThe first sentence in the "Precolonial era" section needs to be reworded or split into two sentences, as it can be difficult to read.
6. Y"In 1895 the BSAC adopted the name 'Rhodesia' for Zambesia, after Cecil Rhodes, and in 1898 'Southern Rhodesia' was officially adopted for the part south of the Zambezi,[9] which later became Zimbabwe, while the part to the north was administered separately by the BSAC and was later named Northern Rhodesia, now Zambia." Split this into two sentences.
7. YIf Image:Udi2-rho.jpg & Image:Robert Mugabe and Zimbabwe President Canaan Banana.jpg are going to be included in the article, a heading on the image page must state "Fair use rationale for Zimbabwe" with a detailed explanation included.
8. Y"Over the years, the guerrilla fighting against Smith's UDI government intensified. As a result, the Smith government opened negotiations with the leaders of the Patriotic Fronts -..." Change the hyphen to —. Fix all other occurrences in the article, if applicable.
9. Y"As the result of an Internal Settlement elections were held in April 1979." Reword "As a result of the Internal Settlement, elections..."
10. Y"However, on June 12, the..." Remove the wikilink for the date.
11. Y"On December 1, 1979, delegations from the British and Rhodesian governments and the Patriotic Front met in London and signed the Lancaster House Agreement, ending the civil war.[17]" Single sentence shouldn't stand alone. Either expand on this statement or incorporate it into another paragraph. Fix any other occurrences throughout the article if applicable.
12. Y"...the Mugabe-led process has been seen as a diversion away from an ill conceived war..." Change "ill conceived" to "ill-conceived".
13. N"The legality and constitutionality of the process has regularly been challenged in the Zimbabwean High and Supreme Courts" Add a wikilink for the High and Supreme courts if they have articles. _{No such articles exist as of yet Mangwanani 18:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)}
14. Y"5.5 million Zimbabweans currently live with HIV." Sentences shouldn't start with a number, reword.
15. Y"The lowest point of Zimbabwe is the junction of the Runde and Save rivers 162 m." In the sentence prior to this, it includes a conversion to feet, due the same for this one.
16. Y"There are several environmental issues in Zimbabwe including deforestation, soil erosion, land degradation, air and water pollution." Add "and" before "air".
17. Y"One faction, led by Welshman Ncube contested the elections to the Senate, while the other led by Morgan Tsvangirai opposed to contesting the elections..." Reword to "One faction, led by Welshman Ncube contested the elections to the Senate, while the other, led by Morgan Tsvangirai, opposed to contesting the elections..."
18. Y"2005 Zimbabwe parliamentary elections were held on March 31 and..." Remove the wikilink for the date.
19. YImage:ZBC logo.jpg needs a detailed fair use rationale.
20. Y"...such as the crackdown on a March 11, 2007..." Wikilink full dates; go through the rest of the article and fix any other occurrences if applicable.
21. Y"...with the commanders of both the Army and the Air force falling under his command." Air Force should be capitalized.
22. Y"was promoted and appointed Commander Zimbabwe Defence Forces." Should this be "Commander of Zimbabwe..."?
23. Y"Lieutenant General P. V. Sibanda replaced him as Commander of the army." Army should be capitalized.
24. Y "The current main service rifle is the L85A2 assault rifle." This sentence isn't necessary for inclusion. However from the Military of Zimbabwe article, consider adding "The ZNA currently has an active duty strength of 30,000. The air force has about 5,000 men assigned." if it can be sourced.
25. Y"integrated to a greater or lesser extent with combatants from the ZANLA and ZIPRA guerrilla movements (the armed wings of, respectively, ZANU and ZAPU." Add the other parenthesis.
26. Y"In 2005, the government, led by central bank governor Gideon Gono, started making overtures that White farmers could come back." Add wikilink for "Gideon Gono" and lower-case "white" (do the same for the rest of the paragraph).
27. YSome of the dates in the "Economy" section are out of order, reorder the paragraphs so it flows better.
28. Y"In August 2006, a new revalued Zimbabwean dollar was introduced, equal to 1000 old Zimbabwean dollars." Reword to "equal to 1000 of the prior Zimbabwean" or "equal to 1000 of the older", or something to that effect. Do the same for the next sentence.
29. Y"Mugabe points to foreign governments and alleged "sabotage" as the cause of this..." What is "this"? Specify.
30. Y"Mugabe has repeatedly blamed sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe by the European Union..." Add a wikilink for EU.
31. Y"The largest Christian churches are Anglican, Roman Catholic, and Methodist." Add wikilinks for the different religions.
32. Y"Mwari simply means God the creator, musika vanhu." Reword this sentence, what is "musika vanhu"? Also add quotation marks around "God the Creator".
33. Y"An estimated 3,4 million Zimbabweans..." 3.4 should have a period, not a comma. _{We use commas for decimal places in Zimbabwe not full stops (period) Mangwanani 19:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)}
34. Y"Zimbabwe has an adult literacy rate of approximately 90%.[73][74][75] This is amongst the highest in Africa." Merge these two sentences into one.
35. Y"The majority of the wealthier portion of the population send their children to independent schools as opposed to the government run schools..." Add hyphen to "government-run".
36. Y"The University of Zimbabwe, the first and largest was built in 1952..." Add a comma after "largest".
37. Y"However, education in Zimbabwe became under threat since the Economic Changes in 2000..." I don't think that Economic Changes should be capitalized.
38. YImage:ZBWE2.jpg needs a detailed fair use rationale.
39. Y"Zimbabwe celebrates its independence on April 18, 1980." This sentence should definitely be expanded on. Mention how they celebrate or any other relevant details.
40. Y"The Shona have many sculptures and carved idols of gods made with the finest available materials." Reword, "finest available materials" sounds like an advertisement, maybe consider "with local available materials" or something else you can think of.
41. Y"Zimbabwe is not renowned for literature..." This statement isn't necessary, since in the next half of the sentence it is mentioned that there are some notable authors.
42. Y"The book "The House of Hunger" by Dambudzo Marechera won an award in the UK in 1979 and the Nobel Prize-winning author Doris Lessing's first novel "The Grass Is Singing" is set in Rhodesia." The books should be italicized instead of included in quotation marks to remain uniform in comparison to the other books mentioned in the section.
43. Y"As many other Africans, a majority of Zimbabweans depend on staple foods." "As like many..."
44. Y"The country's flagship airline Air Zimbabwe still flies to the United Kingdom but has to make several stops en route for refuelling purposes." It isn't necessary to mention that it needs to refuel.
45. Y"at 2593 metres" and "60-70 km" should include the feet/miles equivalent and also metres doesn't need to be spelled out, just include the abbreviation.
46. Y"Possibly the most famous of these are the Great Zimbabwe ruins in Masvingo which survive from the Monomotapa Empire." "survived".
47. Y"...but the most spectacular development is in Zimbabwe with the Matobo Hills in Matabeleland being the most remarkable of all." Spectacular and most remarkable of all need to be sourced if said by someone in a quote (which in that case they need quotation marks around them). If not, they should be removed since it may appear to be POV.
48. Y"Blessed be the Land of Zimbabwe" Should have quotation marks around it since it is a song title.

Add inline citations for:

1. Y"Iron Age Bantu-speaking peoples began migrating into the area about 2000 years ago, including the ancestors of the Shona, who account for roughly four-fifths of the country's population today." Add an inline citation for the 4/5ths figure.
2. Y"In the free elections of February 1980, Mugabe and his ZANU won a landslide victory."
3. Y"The chaotic implementation of the land reform led to a sharp decline in agricultural exports, traditionally the country's leading export producing sector."
4. Y"The black rhinoceros herd - once the largest concentration of the species in the world - has been significantly reduced by poaching."
5. Y"In particular, the elections of 1990 were nationally and internationally condemned as being rigged, with the second-placed party, Edgar Tekere's Zimbabwe Unity Movement, winning only 20% of the vote."
6. Y"As of 2007, the Tsvangirai-led MDC has become the most popular, with crowds as large as 20,000 attending their rallies as compared to between 500–5,000 for the other splinter group."
7. Y"According to human rights organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch" If this is stated, then inline citations need to be added that they said this.
8. Y"After his release, Morgan Tsvangirai told the BBC that he suffered head injuries and blows to the arms, knees and back, and that he lost a significant amount of blood."
9. Y"There is also an abuse of human rights in the media."
10. Y"The Zimbabwean government suppresses freedom of the press and freedom of speech."
11. Y"For the first year a system was followed where the top-performing candidate became battalion commander."
12. Y"Mineral exports, agriculture, and tourism are the main foreign currency earners of Zimbabwe."
13. Y"Zimbabwe is the biggest trading partner of South Africa south of the equator."
14. Y"The IMF predicted inflation will reach 6,430% by the end of 2008."
15. Y"In 2001 it was measured at its highest level ever of 33.7% for people aged 15–49."
16. Y"Around 1% of the population is Muslim."
17. Y"Bantus of other ethnicities are the third largest with 8 to 10%."
18. Y"The white population dropped from a peak of around 300,000 in 1975 to possibly 120,000 in 1999, and was estimated at no more than 60,000 in 2006, possibly much less."
19. Y"Also, a recurring theme in Zimbabwean art is the metamorphosis of man into beast."
20. Y"The ruins, which gave their name to modern Zimbabwe, cover some 1,800 acres (7.3 km²) and are the largest ancient stone construction in Zimbabwe."

Since there are so many things that need to be addressed, I have decided to fail the article instead of putting it on hold. However, if the above issues are addressed, the article should definitely be renominated at WP:GAN. The article does a good job on meeting the broad requirement and had some interesting sections to read about. I may have missed some things in the article, so consider having another editor or two copyedit the article before nominating. If you disagree with this review you can seek an alternate opinion at Good article reassessment. If you have any questions about this review, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 10:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your suggestions! I'll try to make some corrections now .... -- Stan talk 17:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Zimbabwe Independence

In the "Independence" section, the author does not state anything about the independence or any of the events that occurred. Also, the author did not indicate that there were ceremonies that took place. Could someone please fix this? Dan Hickman (talk) 15:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

GA passed

Since I reviewed the article before and you have made the necessary changes, I reviewed it again so you can avoid the large backlog. Good job with addressing the above issues. I have passed this article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. I made a few minor corrections that weren't completely fixed from the last review. Continue to improve the article, making sure that all new information is properly sourced and neutral.

Also, to anyone that is reading this review, please consider reviewing an article or two at WP:GAN to help with the very large backlog. Instructions can be found here. Each new reviewer that helps to review articles will help to reduce the time that articles wait to be reviewed. Keep up the good work, and I hope that you continue to bring articles up to Good Article status. If anyone disagrees with this review, an alternate opinion can be sought at Good article reassessment. If you have any further questions about this review, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 07:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Bad choice of words

"The current unofficial inflation rate is above 11,000%" - given how fast this is changing, "current" is an even worse word than it usually is on WP (and it's usually bad). Could someone please change this to a specific date? 86.143.48.55 (talk) 21:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The unofficial inflation rate is now 150,000% and rising-Ted Fox 02:13, 15 March 2008 (GMT)

Autocracy?

Is Zimbabwe really an autocracy? I personally don't think so. Shouldn't that be labled as POV? - XX55XX (talk) 03:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not think Zimbabwe is an autocracy!! Is UK a dictorship, since Brown has not been elected PM? Is the USA a colonial dictator that bombs other countries and then force into submission? All relative!!!! Ahaaa...the Rhodesians are busy trying to confuse the world..Because they themselves are confused. Rhodesians are only accepted as africans in the UK, but in the USA most people consider them "strange and fun"Zvidzai (talk) 04:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I was about to start this discussion myself. Strictly speaking, Zimbabwe is not an autocracy, although in reality, who knows... Perhaps Zimbabwe is best either definied as a "presidential republic"? - Anonymous 8 March 2008

The majority of educated people will agree that Zimabwe is an autocracy. The widespread election rigging that is known to take place effectively means that President Robert Mugabe is self appointed.

Autocracy is a very subjective word, in the infobox the formal and official state of government should be shown. Critisism is to the put in the text. --Jonte-- (talk) 17:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• If we are lucky enough, in a few hours we should be able to definitively call the country a democracy if not then the debate can continue... Mangwanani (talk) 19:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not a betting man, but if I was, I would bet that the debate will continue. FFMG (talk) 20:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I think this is principable question, the infobox should show offcial data, critisism is to be put in the text. --Jonte-- (talk) 18:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is to wait after the election results are announced. If they are in favour of Tsvangirai, as it seems it should be, then we can safely call it a democracy. If, however, Muagbe rigs the elections as per the norm, then we shall have to decide one way or another. Mangwanani (talk) 19:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

If white people overwhelmingly are against one party, how democratic is that? They had from 1965 to 1980 to introduce democracy in Zimbabwe, but instead they fought tooth and nail, committing many war crimes, including biochemical attacks on the people of Zimbabwe. Did they intoduce democracy at least in the bantustans or native reservations they created? But now they are interested in the rule of law, and democracy? Only when it serves their own narrow interests. They are interested in Zimbabwe's land, and it's natural resources, like they have always been. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrSativa (talk • contribs) 17:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

But, officially, people, isn't Zimbabwe (on paper, at least) a presidential republic? Then, as an encyclopedia, we should call it so. - XX55XX (talk) 20:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Since, officially anyway, Zimbabwe is a democracy, even if some actions of its government or President seem undemocratic, we can mention that in the article, but note in the info box that it is officially a republic... then again, they don't arrest people for being gay in a democracy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.10.119.82 (talk) 22:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Some seemingly missing issues

Maybe these aren't missing so much as not given prominence - I was expecting to find more immediately accessible information about the land redistribution effort and the health situation in Zimbabwe, as well as more specific and up to date information about hyperinflation and the state of the economy currently. I think since the article is pretty comprehensive, any issues of recentism are mitigated. Thoughts? Avruch ^T 16:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Except for the health situation, the land distribution issues and the economic "developments" are still in a state of flux so it's really difficult to incorporate them comprehensively into the article at this time. Most statements are overtaken soon after being written--AssegaiAli (talk) 18:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

2008 General elections

The 2008 general elections are currently happening in Zimbabwe. This can be added to the topic. Bold Vier (talk) 18:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

relationship between the parliament and the president

So the article lacks that vital information we need to know now. Is parliament the sole legislative body? What is the relationship with the president? Can the P veto bills? Can parliament override him? TONY (talk) 13:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

War against white farmers

Why is there nothing on the subject of the war against white farmers in the article? Shouldn't it be front and center? The farmers are murdered and their wives and daughters raped. The lack of farmers has resulted in famine. I am not understanding this. The article seems to make Zimbabwe a rosy place to live. Edw1234 (talk) 14:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I Agree with the statement above. More needs to be emphasized regarding the violence that has taken place since the land reform. Human rights organizations around the world have condemned the actions of Mugabe. Can we please add? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.206.16.35 (talk) 16:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

If you are going to talk about white minority farmers, you then have to include land issues in Zimbabwe, how the majority were forced out of their ancestrol areas and what the British gov;t promised at the lancaster house talks. And why most Zimbabweans do not sympathy with white farmers (let's face it there has been vilation against white farmers, increasingly less sympathy). Are y farmers victims, or the land grabers of native lands. Land issues in Zimbabwe are very controversial!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

In discussing land issues I think you have to include information about the agreement of the Conservative British government in 1979 to fund 'willing buyers from willing sellers', and the effect of the Labour British Government's unilateral decision to stop such funding. The land seizures are the direct result of that action, since black Zimbabweans who wanted to farm do not generally have the resources to buy the farms and properties from the white farmers. This is not to justify any atrocities, giving farms to non-farmers, etc, but to give some context. 142.68.131.36 (talk) 14:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

goodbye bob

Mugabe must go. The solution is now clear. Makoni and the generals should oust the old man immedaitely. Then Makoni should hand over power to Tsvangirai and retain himself the head of army position. this will ensure balance. Also join the rand economic zone quickly, that is yr only hope, zimbabwe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.189.100 (talk) 06:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Not really relevant to Wikipedia...Mangwanani (talk) 22:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

it was very informing

Wikipediais not a blog, Political discussion Forum, or Soapbox. It is an Encyclopedia. Its talk pages are intended to discuss articles in the encyclopedia and how to improve them. The above comment does not meet these criteria and, in my humble opinion, should be deleted. -- 79.180.107.176 (talk) 14:49, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

ZDERA

In the text it's mentioned that ZDERA prohibits the International Monetary Fund and other international financial organizations from extending loans or other financial aid to Zimbabwe. I'm not entirely familiar with the connection between the United States Government and the IMF, but does the US have any jurisdiction over their actions? Also, from what I read in the text of the law itself, it only prohibits the US representatives to those organizations from voting in favor of debt relief and financial aid. While the US does have significant weight (16.79% in the IMF), it does not, to my knowledge, have veto power over IMF decisions. Is there any opposition to clarification of the article? CelticMarauder (talk) 15:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

As nobody has voiced any objections, I have clarified the meaning of the ZDERA legislation. CelticMarauder (talk) 13:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Lead section too long

The lead section of this article (the part that appears before the table of contents) is too long, as per WP:Lead section. Practically the whole history of the country is described here, which is unnecessary for an overview of the country, and makes the section intimdating. I propose that paragraphs 2, 3 and 4 be merged, with only the most important points left in the new paragraph Quietbritishjim (talk) 08:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I added a tentative section header, Political History. I'm not sure how appropriate it is, and more work may be necssary in order to properly integrate its current contents with the rest of the article, dividing it further into its components and positioning each of them in its appropriate position within the article. -- 79.180.107.176 (talk) 14:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Why are they printing so much money?

What exactly is the cause? Do they have to pay back debts? Buy supplies? What exatly?

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.115.36 (talk) 01:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The economic problems in Zimbabwe are due to a decreasing supply of crops and basic commodities, as well as a slightly increasing demand due to population growth. This is sharply driving up prices which means more money has to be produced. Money in Zimbabwe is worth less as it there is so little supply, and high demand of goods. This means that the Zimbabewan dollar quickly loses value in comparison to neighbouring countries which are exporting successfully or have good subsistence farming and commodities.

---

The government needs to pay the salary for state employees such as teachers and soldiers. As those cost are not covered by an equivalent inflow of tax revenues or other sources of income, the state resorts to just printing more money, thus fueling inflation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.22.57.232 (talk) 03:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Autocracy Nonsense

Seems some over-emotional trolls continue to change the Zimbabwe government box as an outlet for their NPOV propaganda, firstly it's the changing the 'Republic' title to 'Autocracy' and secondly it's putting '(Legitimacy in question)' next to Mugabe's name. It seems that some people simply can't keep their political agendas to themselves, but feel it is neccessary to contaminate this wiki article with their propaganda.

Firstly, 'autocracy' is completely undefinable, are we to believe Mugabe is the king of Zimbabwe? He is the legally elected President under the Constitution, and any criticisms about the process of his election and his methods (which some opinion pieces may call 'Autocratic') should be put into context, and not made 'official'. Zimbabwe is a Republic, not an autocracy, and Mugabe is the President, not Autocrat of Zimbabwe. Either way 'Autocrat' is not an official position, and should go under the criticism part or article as appropriate. I mean are we going to change the article for Equatorial-Guinea to 'Autocracy' just because Obiang is a despot? It's still a republic. Next we'll be seeing libertarian nuts changing the Soviet Union box to 'Totalitarian Stalinist Evil repressive anti-free market dictatorship', NO THANKS, keep your political crap out of wikipedia.

I have changed the article back to 'Republic' for obvious reasons, and the next time that emotional noob comes back, I encourage him to justify himself to this discussion area before contaminating this article again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.128.105 (talk) 04:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The Government of Robert Mugabe legitimacy is in question. The governement is not recognized by the EU, Canada, USA and basically most of the free world. However I agree that Zimbabwe is a republic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.177.91.113 (talk) 12:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not denying that Mugabe is autocratic in his methods, but that kinda criticism should be kept in the appropriate criticism areas of the article, not in the government box which is descriptive of the institutions and form of government, which is republican in this instance. Also you fail to designate from the office of the President (Mugabe) and the government structure, a dictator may inhabit republican institutions, but the form of state is still a republic, not a 'dictatorship, that kinda rhetoric is emotional and NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.106.254 (talk) 07:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems that Wikipedia is struggling so hard to be NPOV that in this case we're afraid to talk about the facts because they're controversial. While Mugabe's reign has always been contentious, since the most recent election several countries have explicitly stated that they do not recognise the government (although, admittedly, they failed to back this up with geniune action, mostly due to Russia, China et al's intervention). This is more than just something to be buried in a "criticisms" section, it a one of the first facts people should know about Zimbabwe if they are learning about the country for the first time. It is by blocking this important and widely reported information from this article that we are putting "policital crap" on Wikipedia.

The recent runoff and associated fiasco should be mentioned in the lead section, since it is the only way to show the current political state of affairs to the casual reader (note: I am the same person (below) who asked for the lead section to be made shorter; but this is important enough to justify inclusion). The fact that this is not even mentioned in the article is a travesty, and definitely not NPOV. Can we please discuss the best way to resolve this problem? The country is clearly not a republic, but I suggest we leave that in the infobox and describe the issues separately in the article (including in the lead section). Quietbritishjim (talk) 07:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Extra point: needless to say, all such comments do need to be thoroughly sourced of course. However, given the situation for reporting in Zimbabwe, realistically these may need to be the best available secondary sources. Quietbritishjim (talk) 08:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I really think the addition of "legitimacy in question" of Mugabe is ridiculous as it is completely irrelevant to the Zimbabwe template. There are questions about many governments in the world. In Zimbabwe almost everything is in question! In reality we have no need to think about the fact that so many supporters of Mugabe believe he is democratically elected. The fact that other countries believe otherwise is irrelevant. Wikipedia must be a source of Facts, rather than measal statements which have destroyed reporting of Zimbabwe inside and outside Saying that the legitimacy is in question is hardly NPOV. This will be thoroughly documented in the Robert Mugabe article but has no need here.

---

I want to state on the importance of balance. I most certaily have a political agenda and that agenda pulls strongly for free market and the promotion of political freedom. From a vast experience in discussions like this one I have realised it is necessary to make that clear from point zero. Zimbabwe is certainly a Republic in formal terms, the constitution states so and the institutions were somewhere in the past built for such purpose. An autocrat is not solely a king, is also a person who responds politically only to himself and this is where discussion gets hard. If Mugabe says Zimbabwe is a Republic we have to take that as the official truth and as such the government box should retain the term. Wether it is a republic in real terms we should ask specialists but I suspect that if any opposition is replied by a firing squad then we should consider the biased, inadequate and totally unrealistic term of autocracy. Getting literal on these things is what I love about people who have not yet lived the circumstances. Mugabe may have been democratically elected by a large majority of the people but he is still accountable for what he has done to those who dont like him and that is important for this article because if you state that his personal article will contain all the nasty biased information we all have on him. HE STILL IS THE PRESIDENT OF THAT COUNTRY AND HAS DONE WHAT HE HAS DONE AS HEAD OF GOVERNMET. So please spare me the hipocritical 'balance' you seek, there is no balance to facts, a bullet through your head doesnt have an agenda, the man who blasted your brains out of your skull does.

I only wish that when a person from Zimbabwe reads this article she may find reflected in it the reality that person is living nowadays. Be the most formal you can be and you will have a "beautiful" article that says nothing about Zimbabwe.200.44.242.101 (talk) 20:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Legitimacy in Question

As a Zimbabwean, I myself do not consider Mugabe to be the rightful leader of the country. However, even though the election was a sham, and even though he is a megalomaniac of the worst sort, I am obligated as an editor to consistently remove the "(legitimacy in question)" continually applied to Mugabe's leadership status, even though I agree wholeheartedly. Because the government exists in its own Catch-22 universe, any person it sees fit, even though not chosen by the people, is still recognized as the leader. Although I think most Zimbabweans would disagree, and I do too with a heavy heart. Long live freedom, long live the MDC. Icarus of old (talk) 16:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Al Jazeera hasn't been banned

Despite reports from the Zimbabwe metro, and subsequently other newspapers, there is actually evidence to prove that not only is Al Jazeera reporting from Zimbabwe, [1], but Supa Mandiwanzira is also still their Zimbabwe correspondant, and was never fired by Al Jazeera. At the moment I have not got the evidence, but there was recently an occasion where he was reporting from a Zimbabwean bank on the introduction of the 100 billion dollar not, or was it 10 billion.--HandGrenadePins (talk) 11:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Disarmament and Development

There is no correlation between the two topics, stated and Mugabe is in all right to withdraw funding from certain areas of the infrastructure in order to promote armament. His weapons policy is beautiful in nature as it is in the good of the people as there protection and safety is an absolute necessity. If you would choose to combat me on this please site your sources.

flag the flage shown is the flag of mississippi not zimbabwe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.99.4 (talk) 14:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism or ...

I am not sure if it is vandalism, POV or simply badly worded, but there are a few things that simply don't look right

1. In the info box : Zimbabwe government is not a 'semi-presidential system republic', (red link), if this refers to the ongoing talks, (that would make it a Semi-presidential system), then they are not official yet in the Zim constitution.
2. second paragraph of the intro, "The country is dictated by President Robert Mugabe, who is accused by rights groups of massive violations of human rights.", this might be true, but this sounds very POV and might need to be toned down a little, especially in the intro.
3. "...Zimbabwe is currently experiencing a hard currency shortage", "Zimbabwe's current economic and food crisis, described by some observers...", this does not sound very encyclopedic, when is 'currently/current'? We need to add flags.

FFMG (talk) 19:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• Just a quick comment on your last point. "Current" is right now, I don't think anyone would deny this crisis is ongoing, indeed it's getting worse by the day. Perhaps an indication of when it began would be good, but getting two economists to agree on when any given crisis began is like trying to persuade Osama Bin Laden and George W. Bush to give each other a hug and a kiss. In other words, well nigh impossible. Beeblebrox (talk) 05:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree, "Current" is right now, but we should add some dates to give the readers an idea of when "Current" is from/to. If the crisis lasts for 10, (more), years then "Current" would give the impression that it only just started when in fact the country has been in trouble for quite sometime already.

Maybe even have something along the lines of "As of November 2008...". FFMG (talk) 06:48, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

date formatting in Zimbabwe

I've just audited the dates here, assuming that—as for South Africa—international date formats are used. Since Zimbabwe could conceivably be considered an anglophone country (a minority is native-speaking, yes?), MOSNUM's rules for anglophone countries probably apply. Your comments? Tony (talk) 04:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

When I made the article up to GA class I made sure all the spellings were spelt in the correct English way and not the American (incorrect) variations. I didn't look at dates etc. so dates should be correct to the English way also. Mangwanani ^(talk) 20:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

No to "a minority native-speaking" - every Zimbabwean is bi-lingual <NativeLanguage, English>. Before school age everyone speaks native language Shona/Ndebele. On entering school, everyone starts learning English (British English) and written native language at around 5 years old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.125.37.103 (talk) 23:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

What happened between 1980 and the late 1990s

The narrative seems to jump directly from Mugabe's election in 1980 directly to the 21st century as if nothing of note happened worth mentioning in the meantime. I'm wondering if this is just poor article development or a willful attempt to present a Mugabe gov't that just sort of went senile when it started grabbing commercial farms at the beginning of this century and handing them to party cronies.

What happened to the 5th brigade and the massacres in Matabeleland within a few years after Mugabe got hold of the levers of power in Zim? How is that the Brits gave him a knighthood with that sort of blood on his hands and why did they wait till just a few months ago before taking it away again.

Not to put too fine a point on it, this article stinks on ice. The Brits created Zimbabwe, handed it to a known maniac and then pretended that he was an all right guy, for a black man, for right at twenty years. The story wants telling and it isn't getting told here. Plaasjaapie (talk) 20:40, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I will agree that there are things missing in the article, and it is still a work in progress, hence it not being FA class as of yet. I will work on your comments in the coming weeks. Mangwanani ^(talk) 21:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a good point! My suspicion is editors have been more excited about writing about more recent events, rather than a conspiracy as such. But whatever caused it does not matter, since this is wikipedia and we can fix anything! Babakathy (talk) 06:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I have put in some sub-headings as ideas for expansion.Babakathy (talk) 06:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Ja, thanks for that. It's a good place to look at. Gukurahundi is easy - it's just the second sub-heading you have put that could be tricky to fill out. I also don't want to have too many sub-headings as that is one of the criteria for FA, hence me losing a lot of the defunct subtitles when I worked on the article for GA. Mangwanani ^(talk) 17:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Lovely. I will lurk for now and try and add some when you are through. Babakathy (talk) 17:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Right, I have added a bit. Feel free to edit, cut and change. I have tried to reference as much as possible though I feel some more would be handy. The history section is however, waaaaaaaay too long and needs to be cut down so that it is roughly the same length as Japan#History - Japan being a featured article. Additionally, we need images! More images need to be added for the 1990s section and the decline section to help illustrate the page more. Mangwanani ^(talk) 20:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Cholera epidemic

'Countries' are not my specialist subject, but should the recent epidemic be included in this article? Doomsday2029 (talk) 14:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Something could go under Human Rights about it... Mangwanani ^(talk) 21:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing "human rights" about cholera epidemic in Zimbabwe ... no evidence that Mugabe poisoned the people. Truth is Mugabe just can't get any supplies for normal life sustainance in Zimbabwe ... public works have ground to a halt ... not incompetence but lack of resources ... its not economics but political ... Zimbabwe is viable economically ... it has a competent and educated workforce ... just bad/bankrupt politics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.125.37.103 (talk) 23:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Well there is everything "human rights" about the epidemic seeing as Mugabe refuses to invest in health care and the corrupt government means the money goes to him and not into the water cleaning processes... Mangwanani ^(talk) 13:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Is covered under health. Human rights dimension of the epdidemic could be covered, but need sourced claims. Babakathy (talk) 14:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

If we could please not use such language such as "corrupt" and "refuses" since this site is supposedly meant to have NPOV as one of its central principles. I doubt that it has anything to do with "human rights" however bad Mugabe's government allegedly is.--81.154.10.114 (talk) 20:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

It is true that some Zimbabwe-related articles have at times read like MDC propaganda. However, the Zimbabwe article only refers to corruption once (with references). While wp:npov is important, it does not mean that just because someone disagrees with a widely-held view that the two views deserve equal space in an article - see wp:fringe and wp:weight. For example, to contend that there is no corruption in Zimbabwe would be a fringe viewpoint, I suggest. Babakathy (talk) 05:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

That said, the government's viewpoint on human rights criticisms should at least be mentioned in the appropriate section. Babakathy (talk) 05:28, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Help Needed

To all contributers/editers of the Zimbabwe page:

I have nominated the page for FA status - how likely we are to get it still remains to be seen, mostly it's good to have the feedback. From the comments raised so far, we need to tidy up the References. Apparently there are Publisher and last Access dates missing from the refs and this needs to be addressed for the status to be achieved. Additionally, someone believes that there is too much "slant" against Mugabe. While it is hard to write an article without being critical, any issues of this needs to be addressed to achieve NPOV. Any help in addressing these matters would be great for the article. Thanks Mangwanani ^(talk) 16:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

External links

I've pruned this section, which had far too many "other" links. Most of these could be used to add material to the article, so I did. But generally external links should be to cites that continuously provide information on the subject of the article, not to individual stories or journal papers. Babakathy (talk) 18:47, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Inflation estimated by "some economists at 10 sextillion per cent"

Everyone is quoting this figure, often in exactly those words, but I cannot find the source. Anyone got any ideas? 20:14, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The text references the BBC. It is quite interesting to run the search suggested above by Babakathy. I was struct to find so many occurences of this exact phrasing. I first believed this article from the BBC ("Last updated at 18:03 GMT, Friday, 20 February 2009") to be the original source until I found this post on a forum ("Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:29 pm"). Now I am getting paranoid and a little off-topic...

Anyways, one can argue that the BBC is a reliable source, but I find their statement to be vague enough to be deemed dubious. I remove it from Wikipedia. --YaK (talk) 13:03, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I also notice the sources to which the other inflation figures refer are confusing to say the least, I am tempted to say inconsistent. Maybe the whole paragraph needs the attention of someone better versed in economics. ("Verification needed"?) --YaK (talk) 14:58, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. For now, best that it is gone. Babakathy (talk) 14:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

NPOV

I'm getting tired of writing this on this page. It would be better if this was actually sock puppetry, rather than a load of sycofantic propogandees just spouting out what they see on the news with no regard to what is neutral. "Mainly attributed" is not appropriate language. It is a weasel statement quite akin to the Western Media's, apparently successful, attempts to blacken Mugabe's name. Sorry for the bias here, but at least I'm not doing it on the article! I may sound like some lone conspiracist here, but I am just trying to make people see that this kind of language is giving unfair tribute to enemies of President Mugabe. "This has also resulted" implies that hyperinflation happened as a direct result of the land reforms. This may or may not be "true", but it ignores the key opposing arguments to this theory. We cannot just dismiss Mugabe's claims because we do not believe them. Besides, Mugabe is certainly not the only world leader who agrees with him about his country. There is a tendency to suggest that Mugabe has worldwide opposition, which is certainly not true.

There have been improvements made, but I would like to see more neutral coverage of BOTH sides of the story, without attempting to critisize or glamorise any particular viewpoint, explicitly or implicitly.--81.154.10.114 (talk) 19:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

There were no Phoenicians in the 10th century.

Not sure where to put this but this part - Around the early 10th century, trade developed with Phoenicians on the Indian Ocean coast, helping to develop Great Zimbabwe in the 11th century - Cannot be true as the Phoenicians ceased to be a power in around the 300BC time frame and were only really active in the mediterranean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.5.250.114 (talk) 00:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

This sentence has been sitting in the history section of the article since May 22, 2008: "Around the early 10th century, trade developed with Phoenicians on the Indian Ocean coast, helping to develop Great Zimbabwe in the 11th century." It is clearly anachronistic, as the Phoenicians had ceased to exist a millennial earlier. Before May 22, 2008, the sentence refers to trade with Muslim merchants, which makes a lot more sense. I've changed it back to "Muslim merchants". The issue has also been discussed on the Humanities reference desk ,see --NorwegianBlue ^talk 20:53, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Mugabe is not royalty.

Mugabe is not a King, therefore Zimbabwe is not "under the reign of" him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.195.59 (talk) 19:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

literacy rate

what is the literacy rate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.7.224.166 (talk) 19:01, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

Hi, I reverted 2 edits about someone named "Harriet Kagoro" because they seemed out of place and I couldn't find any reference to such a person. I assume that it was vandalism. I apologise if it wasn't. Kcgrant (talk) 16:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

German spelling? No, thanks.

In the Etymology section, I've removed an explanation about the German way to spell the word "Zimbabwe". There's no WP policy to support it, and the rationale behind it seems weak. Also, this way of doing things would clutter articles if spread. Wurdnurd (talk) 12:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Is 'refugee' the right term ?

According to the refugee article it isn't. Then what is the right term ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nroets (talk • contribs) 20:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Add link to novel?

If it's okay I'd like to add a link to James Michener's book called The Covenant (novel because it's a great way to learn about history of Africa, since it is fiction based on true facts. It shows the way the continent has been enslaved by white colonialists which is ongoing today. Stars4change (talk) 17:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Which are the official language(s)?

In the first paragraph, it says there are three official languages, yet later in the article it says there are three principal languages and English is the official language.

So, which is it? —Mproud (talk) 06:13, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Zimbabwe's recovery

BBC and CNN can now freely report in the country, food is on the shelves, inflation is down, IMF predicts economic growth. WHY ISN'T THIS MENTIONED ANYWHERE? I have looked at the zimbabwe economy page and there is NOTHING.

--82.17.80.241 (talk) 10:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Please, see this site: [Desperation stalks Zimbabwe's white farmers], that is about this subject.Agre22 (talk) 13:38, 23 September 2009 (UTC)agre22

Economic sanctions barely mentioned?

It seems that the economic sanctions against Mugabe from 2000 onward coincide neatly with the country's rapid economic decline to hyperinflation. Yet the sanctions are only briefly mentioned in the economy section. I think they need to be added to the history section to add some understanding. The claims that the economy collapsed because of gross incompetence by Mugabe seem greatly exaggerated. IanBushfield (talk) 18:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The 'sanctions' are personal, and apply to a few hundred govt. officials, only. I hardly think that stopping them from shoipping at Harrod's caused the collapse of Zimbabwe.

Were these 'sanction' mentioned in the economy section? They should not have been put in at all; they are irrelevant. They might be worth putting in the history section, as the Mugabe regime has been heavn —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.135.66 (talk) 20:19, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Zimbabue entered in an economic crisis, because of its own government.This site: [CNN] talks something about this subject.Agre22 (talk) 13:40, 23 September 2009 (UTC)agre22

demonitisation

The wikipedia article says

In a effort to combat inflation and foster economic growth the Zimbabwean Dollar officially ceased to exist on 1 July 2009.[103] Zimbabwe is now officially pegged to the United States Dollar "

But the source only talks about a proposal

"I propose the demonetisation of all the remaining Zimbabwe dollar balances held by the financial sector as well as notes and coins in circulation," he said. "Formal demonetisation should allow for settlement of all remaining Zimbabwe dollar transactions and obligations prior to the introduction of the multiple currency system as well as the revaluation of all other Zimbabwe dollar balances for accounting purposes. At the present moment, estimates indicate that about US $6 million will be required to purchase the entire stock of Zimbabwe dollar balances with banks as well as cash outside the banking system."

However, he did not say at which exchange rate at which the defunct currency will be bought.

"The conclusion of this process will officially bring to an end claims on the use of the Zimbabwe dollar as a unit of account, medium of exchange and store of value. Government will, therefore, maintain the use of multiple currencies, whilst addressing the attendant challenges such as improving the liquidity of the domestic financial system, challenges of smaller denominations and change in business transactions, in as well as standardising currency use in accounting," Biti said."

-- Plugwash (talk) 18:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

New source provided documenting the suspension in April 2009. Babakathy (talk) 09:00, 30 December 2009 (UTC)