Talk:Ziggurat/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Ziggurat. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Ziggurat & Zagros (mountains) are etymologically related.

After reading Crawford 2004 page 20, the first ziggurats were built in the 3rd millennium, the Early Dynasty III period. 66.82.9.58 17:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)VJ. Isn't the 4th millennium the Uruk period, not the Ubaid period? 69.19.14.43 17:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)VJ.

You build Ziggurats in Warcraft III

There are a zillion other places, companies, organizations, bands, people, neckties, where ziggurats appear in them or use the name:

When is a Ziggurat not a Ziggurat

It might be worth adding a paragraph clarify the difference between a pyramid and a ziggurat. I was going to add this picture of El Castillo at Chichen Itza, except that I see it is also known as the 'Pyramid of Kulkulkán' and I can't find any references to it being called a ziggurat. Nevertheless it seems to be a classical example of a ziggurat with a stepped construction and temple on top. -- Solipsist 18:47, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Good point. I was always thinking that The the Giza pyramids are technically aiggurats as well. The distinctions therefore need to be made.--Zereshk 00:49, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Technically sumerian zigurats are called ziggurratu, because its name comes from the verb ""zagaru"", that means elevate. Besides, responding to Zereshk, a piramid is not a ziggurratu because piramids are tombs, and ziggurratus in sumerian culture where never used for those meanings and had a more economical feature in society.--Geneticorder

The Egyptian pyramids were tombs. The Mesoamerican pyramids generally served the same function as ziggurats, as a platform for a cult chamber. The would occasionally be used as tombs as well, but this was not their primary function. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I find I misremembered. The example for a burial in a Mesoamerican pyramid I was thinkng of was that of Pakal the Great in the "Temple of the Inscriptions" in Palenque. But it seems that the tomb is below ground level even though access to it is via the floor of the temple atop the pyramid. It therefore seems that the pyramid was built over the tomb, not that the pyramid was in part intended to be a tomb -- and that indeed the temple was built to honor the deified Pakal. With that in mind, the Mesoamerican pyramid appears to correspond exactly to the ziggurat. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:36, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

There are some spurious letters in this sentence:

"The temples of the Sumerians were believed to be a cosmic axis, a vertical bond between heaven and Earth, atryrend the Etreyrarth and the underworld, and a horizontal bond beeytytween the lands."

I'll make what seem the most obvious corrections to me: "and", "Earth" and "between".

--Vanwaffle 21:19, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

some people belive that the people of mesopotamia would hide tresure of value and put it in the ziggurats for the gods and over night the tresure and value would be gome the gods would take it as a thankyou for the deeds the people have done. f

http://archaeology.about.com/od/ancientcivilizations/tp/american_civ.htm Hrld11 (talk) 15:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Joseph Campbell

Just added some commentary by Joseph Campbell but I kind of did it on the fly, should need some reviewing to make it coherent with the text that's already there. I think it would greatly bettered with a picture of a geometrical figure of a square within a circle with a point in the middle, can anybody do this?

Unfortunately, this strikes me as a load of speculative nonsense. Ziggurats did not uniformly have seven levels, and to force this kind of interpretation onto a square building is an absurdity. (You could have said the same thing about my elementary school, after all.) What is really needed here, IMO, is more historical information, not flights of fancy.

I'm sorry for the harsh tone, but I've never been particularly impressed by Campbell's theories. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I feel that whether Joseph Campbell's theories are accurate or not, it's still a theory on the subject of ziggurats and should be presented. Of course, we should take care to be as objective as possible which is why I tried to emphasize that the information is according to Joseph Campbell.--\Wakingup

no pseudoarchaeology please. dab (ᛏ) 19:09, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed not. People like Zecharia Sitchin have theories on the subject of ziggurats as well, but they're not worth mentioning in a serious article. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I honestly don't feel that's a fair comparison. Anyone who has gained recognition in the academic field should have his theories heard. Sitchin as I know has no academic background while Campbell was a university professor. There are people who feel Sigmund Freud's ideas are equally preposterous (for the most part, myself included), that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to have his ideas put out there.--Waking

To the extent it's built more on Campbell's theoretical constructs than the archaeological evidence, it's absolutely fair. Arguing from credentials is dicey anyway, and to the extent that Campbell's theories are as much spiritual as scholarly -- perhaps even more so -- they should be taken with a grain of salt. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

One's position in the academic field is irrelevant. The position of one's theories is not. I do not know much about ziggurats, but honestly, I was left feeling like the Campbell bit was at best vague and trivial. It was also too long and needs aggressive editing. There is enough amateur number theory in relation to archaeology out there, and if this is something else, it should at least sound like something else. Could perhaps even be comprehensible.

Pictures of Ziggurat of Ur in Iraq

I have some pictures that I own that I'd be willing to give to the article. Would they be useful? They all have people in the shots though, soldiers to be particular. Probably not good.

In my opinion, any further images would be most welcome. The article is in obvious need of development and isn't all that useful in its current condition, and any help is good. Even having people in the shots is helpful, I think, for providing a sense of scale, which you generally don't get otherwise. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Video games

Could we please limit video game references to occurances of actual ziggurats and not merely uses of the word? The latter isn't really relevant, IMO. I removed a reference to a character who happened to be named "Ziggurat". From context, I infer the "Serious Sam" reference involved a ziggurat. What does the word mean in "Alex Kidd in The Lost Stars"? TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Ziggurats, Pyramids and Maya

The Mayan structures were Ziggurats, no? But this page covers only Mesopotamian Ziggurats. I'm looking to link an article to this in reference to Mayan Ziggurats but this only mentions Mesopotamian ones. Am I wrong and should direct the link elsewhere, or does this article need expanding? Biscuit Knight 01:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The etymology of "ziggurat" is given in the article. It's a specifially Mesopotamian word, referring specifically to these structures and those that preceded Babylonian use of them. The Mayan (and Aztec, and others) structures are called "pyramids" as that's a much more general term. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Squaring the Circle: How My House is Great.

I'm highly skeptical about some of the conclusions drawn by Joseph Campbell. First he says there is significance between the 365 days of the year and the 360 degrees of the circle. This is total nonsense, since the second is simply arbitrary: more importantly, you could then draw this 'conclusion' about any building in the world - how can you possibly have a building that does not 'have' all 360 degrees of a circle? The paragraph actually says something along the lines of 'the building is a square, therefore you can draw a circle around it and thus find your 360 degrees'. Well, I'm off to draw a circle around my house, and then I'll ring up UNESCO to get on the list.

Then the next gem of knowledge falls into our lap - the building actually has four sides! (Again, my house has this: I'm really excited now). Of course, this does not represent the mundane and boring number four (oh no!) as most people would probably associate with the humble square. Instead, it represents five. This is because of a mysterious extra point cunningly located inside the square! This corrosponds to the temple at the top of the structure or, if anyone from UNESCO is listening, my home's chimney, which is roughly central.

Now, I of course would never, ever suggest that this resepcted scholar would simply 'invent' such a point to further his own theories, into which it slips rather neatly, or that he is so lacking in geometrical knowledge as to have miscounted the number of corners... but there does seem to be something slightly fishy here.

Seriously, that whole section makes no sense whatsoever, and writing this has made me realise I can't bear to wait for a consensus. I'm deleting it right now...

201.235.217.76 16:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the 360 degrees of a circle are in fact not arbitrary, but rather the legacy of an ancient Middle Eastern civilization's (I forget which) miscalculation of the number of days in a year. In other words, your snide rejection of this hypothesis is premature at best and possibly downright wrong. Why don't you can the superior tone and wait for a consensus? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.17.49.17 (talk) 19:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Minor correction and a querie to boot

Corrected a minor detail in the text "in India...and other 3rd world countries",although I still think the sentence as a whole can be somewhat misleadng and/or considered discriminative(I dont particularly care but I understand ideological paranoids exist all over the web) I simly think that using that type of abbreviation("3d") is unbecoming of an aencylopedic article. On teh querie side,Altough I know their character must be rather different as far as I know mayans did also build scalonated pyramids similar in structure and execution to a ziggurat? 201.235.217.76 16:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)El Gostro; 01: 02 PM ,13 October 2006

I think someone needs to totally go over the article. I was actually curious about the nature and the origin of Ziggurats so I looked to Wikipedia, what do I find? "escription poops were aform of sgfdstemple towr common to the Sumerians, Babylonians and [Assyria]]s of ancdgient fgMesoptamia. The latest examples of the ziggurat were simple aised plaforms gfsthfgat datrgjfdklgjflkgjdslkdfsgjfdlkgjsdfkgjdlfksgjfefrom the Ubaid period[1] during te fourt [[millennium]hg] B and the latest date from thfge 6thdfg century BC. The top of thezigguratwas flat, unlikghe may yramid"

Very useful.

It had been vandalized, and remained that way for about an hour and a half on 20 December. In fact, it was fixed some time before you posted here. I suspect you were looking at a locally cached version of the page, if you saw it just before. TCC (talk) (contribs) 11:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Citadel in Los Angeles

It isn't in Los Angeles, and it doesn't resemble a Ziggurat.[1] 198.99.123.63 01:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

I've removed the rather random lists of trivia in the article and placed them here. If anyone wished to include them in the article again, I recommend trying to put them into a proper context, ei not in as a bullet list of random factoids.

Peter ^Isotalo 07:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Ziggurat in mathematics

The Ziggurat algorithm is a fast algorithm for generating pseudorandom numbers by computer.

Ziggurat in music

Ziggurats is the name of the third studio album from Sydney roots band, The Beautiful Girls.

Ziggurat is the name of Turkish black metal act.

The Ziggurat Scrolls is the name of the second EP from the Israeli Mesopotamian-Metal band Melechesh.

The Energy dome made famous by the band Devo are sometimes referred to as Ziggurat hats.

Ziggurat in video games

Ziggurats are frequently portrayed in video games, and often used as a residence for the boss.

In the computer role playing game series Xenosaga, Ziggurat 8, shortened to Ziggy by one of the game's protagonists, is a playable character.
In the real time strategy computer game Warcraft 3, ziggurats are one of the many building structures available to the undead race. They can also be found in the Eastern Plaguelands in the MMORPG World of Warcraft, and in Ghostland for the expansion The Burning Crusade.
A ziggurat like building, dubbed a "Nexus", is also the main base structure of the Protoss race in Blizzard's other well known real time strategy game, Starcraft.
In the game City of Heroes, "the Ziggurat" (or "the Zig") is a common nickname for Zigursky Penitentiary, a giant pyramidal prison for super-villains in the Paragon City zone Brickstown. Also, with the introduction of City of Villains, players can break out of the Zig as a villain.
The computer game Quake has a secret level called "Ziggurat Vertigo" featuring a central ziggurat-like structure. The level is accessible by entering an unobtrusive portal in level 4 in Episode 1 (E1M4: "The Grisly Grotto"). The Quake reference for the map is E1M8.
The video game Alex Kidd: The Lost Stars for the Sega Master System mentions a Ziggurat in certain levels.
The game Serious Sam: The Second Encounter has a level called Ziggurat (Mission Mesopotamia, Level 6)
In the first edition of Age of Empires, the temples and wonders of the Babylon civilization are modelled after ziggurats.
In the horror PC game Clive Barker's Undying, at the end of the Oneiros level where Patrick Galloway must fight off Otto Keisinger, the boss battle revolves around a gigantic ziggurat.
In the PlayStation game Final Fantasy VII there is a temple, belonging to an ancient race called the Cetra, which resembles a ziggurat on the outside but is a labyrinth on the inside.
In the PC game Morrowind, in Vivec, there is a temple in the form of a ziggurat.
In the PC game Lineage 2, ziggurat is a gatekeeper that provide access to the catacombs.
In the PC and Xbox 360 game Shadowrun, two opposing factions, RNA Global and The Lineage, fight over the control of magic, which has returned to the earth after 5,000 years. A mysterious ziggurat located in Santos, Brazil is the main hotspot where this magic is appearing.
in the game sonic adventure dx the temple in the mystic ruins/past city is shaped like a ziggurat

Ziggurat in media

The Ziggurat is a tower in the animated movie Metropolis
A Ziggurat is seen in the movie Blade: Trinity, although computer graphics were used to reconstruct it.
A Ziggurat was the focal building in the movie Ghostbusters, in which the ziggurat was constructed in order to bring forth Gozer from another dimension.
A Ziggurat is seen in the movie Blade Runner as Harrison Ford as Rick Deckard is brought from the slums of the inner city to the interview with Tyrell. The aforementioned building in Laguna Niguel is often mistaken by Orange County residents as the Tyrell building seen in the film, which was in fact a five-foot-tall miniature built by the effects department.
The Massassi Temple that houses the Rebel base (and later Luke Skywalker's Jedi Academy) on Yavin IV in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope is a Ziggurat.
Ziggursky Penitentiary is a massive prison in the MMORPGs City of Heroes and City of Villains. It is often called "The Zig" or "The Ziggurat", and closely resembles one, though it is at least 30 floors high.

Vandalism

Hey guys i was looking at this page and there was alot of vandalism, mostly texts in bold. I just wanted to bring this to someones attention. Im really new to editing and the talk pages of Wikipedia, so i d like to leave all that to someone else.

JeffCannity (talk) 23:02, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment

Sumerians and Babylonians created ziggurats —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.243.247.77 (talk) 01:22, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Contradictions

This article contains several statements that appear to be contradictory or redundant, particularly in the discussions of archaeological evidence of "temples" atop ziggurats, and in the translations of certain names. It would be appreciated if someone who knows something about ziggurats (as opposed to myself, who tried to come here to become informed) could make this article make sense. YorkBW (talk) 21:43, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I made the changes you suggested to distinguish "temples" which included other buildings, and "shrines" which were much smaller. Greensburger (talk) 04:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Etemenanki

This article says Etemenanki was "Most likely built by Hammurabi" while the article on Etemenanki says "It is unclear exactly when Etemenanki was first built, but it was probably in existence before the reign of Hammurabi" and raises an argument to support its position. I couldn't see a relevant citation in either article. I feel it would be good if someone knowledgeable about the subject brings the two articles into agreement. Thanks Kiore (talk) 09:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Re: Citadel Outlets in Los Angeles

I believe the Citadel Outlets is not a ziggurat, but it says in the History page, and you can see from the picture, that the building has a stepped-top, Assyrian Castle in the ziggurat style, modeled after a 7th century B.C. Assyrian palace. I think it should be included in the section.

The section seems to list modern architecture that is ziggurat-inspired, which is why it is separate from the list of actual ziggurats in the world at the beginning of the article. The bulleted list is not organized though, so it is hard to read. I suggest separating the buildings into sub-sections, organized by continent or countries, and re-naming the father subject from "Modern buildings resembling ziggurats" as "Ziggurat-influenced modern architecture", rather than adding the miscellaneous list to the 'step pyramid' article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndreaAllison (talk • contribs) 23:36, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

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