Jump to content

Talk:Zayn al-Din Qaraja

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GA Review

[edit]
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Zayn al-Din Qaraja/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 15:11, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:11, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Can you comment on the two older sources -- Toursarkisian (1897) and von Zambaur (1927)? Older academic sources can be significantly outdated; are these still accepted as authoritative by modern academics?
  • This is not necessary for GA, but FYI the link from FNs 15 and 17 to Merçil in the bibliography does not work. Is it because you have Erçil in the footnotes, but Merçil in the bibliography?
  • The image is correctly licensed.
  • Is there any chance of a map showing some of the geography described in the article? That would help readers unfamiliar with the area.
  • "In 1298, the Armenian regions around Marash came under the dominion of the Mamluk Sultans, who through iqta', granted these lands to the walis of Aleppo and trusted Turkoman lords that largely came to prominence after the fall of the Ilkhanid rule in Anatolia." As an introductory sentence this has a lot that will be unfamiliar to many readers. The Mamluks, iqta', wali, and Ilkhanid at a minimum are likely to be new terms. Could we either gloss some of this inline, or add a sentence or two to slow down the pace of the information?
  • Similarly perhaps define "beg" inline.
  • "In Qaramannameh, written by the Karamanid historian Shikari": neither Qaramannameh nor Shikari gets a link, so there's no way for the reader to put this source in context. Was this a contemporary source, or was it written later?
  • "which resulted in his imprisonment by Mehmet I of Karaman": presumably "his" refers to Qarāja, but it's not clear. If Qarāja is imprisoned, when and how is he freed? How long was he imprisoned for?
  • It's "Qarāja" in the article but Qaraja in the article title; should the article be moved?
  • Generally the first paragraph needs some expansion. Reading through, I am unclear on several points. For example, Qarāja is sent to support the Anatolian Seljuks against the Karamanids, but apparently the region was "under the dominion of the Mamluk Sultans", so what's the relationship between the Seljuks, the Karamanids, and the Mamluks? Was Qarāja's support for the Seljuks within the area of the Mamluk's domination, or outside it? A few more sentences on the historical and geographical background would make it a lot easier to understand the events. This comment also applies to the events described in "Rise to power": most readers won't know who the Eretnids are, and won't know where Elbistan is. This section would really benefit from a map, which would reduce the amount of explanation needed.
  • We mention the wali of Aleppo, Altunbogha, at one point, and the Emir of Aleppo, Tashtimur, later; are these the same position?
  • "But the situation in Cairo was also complicated as Emir Qawsun was trying to install Al-Ashraf Kujuk in place of Al-Mansur Abu Bakr": this is a bit opaque for a reader who doesn't know anything about the political/power relations between the sultan and the emirs. You could add more explanation, but I wonder if it might be better to instead just say "But the situation in Cairo was also complicated by internal power struggles" or something along those lines? And I don't understand why Qawsun's machinations would lead to Tashtimur being threatened by Qawsun's commanders.
  • Is Khalil Beg, referred to in the "Downfall" section as Qarāja's successor, the same as Ghars al-Din Khalil?
  • "appointed by the Mamluks as amīr ṭablkhāna (lit. 'amir of the band') of Damascus to maintain his father's allegiance": not sure what this means.

I'll hold off on doing spot-checks of the sources until the above points are addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:27, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments @Mike Christie, I went through your notes:
  • For von Zambaur, R. Stephen Humphreys mentions that "by far the most detailed and wide-ranging" source for the lineage of Islamic dynasties "is Eduard von Zambaur, Manuel de généalogie et de chronologie pour l'histoire de l'Islam (1927)" [1] Zambaur is also used as source by many modern publications when I search him on Google Books. Though, of course, Humphreys mentions that he lacked many resources at the time and contains some errors, but he would be a starting point for someone studying Islamic dynasties. I am using von Zambaur for the statement that Qaraja's son Ibrahim later became the lord of Harpoot, which is also mentioned in Venzke (2017). In that case, he is not indispensable, but I think von Zambaur is a notable source. When it comes to Toursarkisian, also known as Aghassi, another source already repeats what it says, so it is not essential. It is not that well-known in academia compared to von Zambaur, because it is largely used in publications about Armenians and the genocide. Although this article doesn't involve much if any controversy, I wanted to use a diverse group of sources, since many are in Turkish, so that's why I included von Zambaur and Toursarkisian.
  • Erçil was a typo. I corrected it.
  • I could find a detailed map showing the region before the Dulkadirids, which would fit the background section. There is a map of the Turkish principalities in Anatolia showing the Dulkadirids on Commons [2], but it is noted as "anachronistic", so I didn't want to use that. Alıç (2020) has maps showing where Qaraja was "most active", and I may create a map based on that. I actually added a preliminary version I created through Paint, but it looks too amateurish to be on Wikipedia, even with extra details.
  • I reworded the first paragraph of the background section.
  • Defined "beg" inline.
  • Removed the part about Shikari. The source I used doesn't make it clear as well. Since this is more about Qaraja's father, adding more explanation could divert the focus.
  • Some articles, such as Shia Islam, have diacritics within the article, but their titles lack it. I took that as a reference when creating the article. I wouldn't move the article if it doesn't go against the guidelines.
  • Emirs and walis are the same. Changed all to "emir" for consistency.
  • Reworded the part about Tashtimur.
  • Khalil Beg is the same as Ghars al-Din Khalil. Changed it to Ghars al-Din Khalil.
  • Ibrahim was essentially given a title as a "gesture of goodwill", essentially a move to gain Ibrahim's father's approval so that he doesn't rise up against the state. I hope it's clearer now.
Aintabli (talk) 05:11, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Second pass

[edit]

Most points above are OK; I'm reading through again and will raise anything still outstanding again. By the way, if you want to intersperse your replies with my comments (like this), that's fine with me -- it saves you from having to copy my points down to reply to them.

  • The map is definitely a help. It looks like Birga (now Birecik) is Bile on the map; is that an error in the map? Similarly Gabon is "Kapan" on the map; shouldn't it be the old name, not the modern name? And is Androun on the map? I don't see it.
    It's not really an error. Birecik had many variants of its name throughout history. Aintabli (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Androun is not on the map. Gabon and Kapan are different spellings of the same name. Changed Gabon to Kapan. Aintabli (talk) 16:24, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Elbistan was captured in 1335 or 1337". We've just said Elbistan was captured by Taraqlu, and also that Khalil was leading an offensive against Taraqlu, so it's not clear if these dates refer to Taraqlu's capture of Elbistan or if we're saying Khalil captured it.
     Done Clarified. Aintabli (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This led to Tashtimur's rebellion, who eventually found himself in an absurd situation as he was pursued by the Mamluks and escaped to Eretna in the north with the help of Qarāja": why "absurd"?
    He was initially acting against Qarāja and Eretna but found himself in need of their protection. Reworded. Aintabli (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I've done a bit of copyediting on this and the next point; can you check I didn't screw anything up? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:35, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks good. Aintabli (talk) 18:40, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When An-Nasir Ahmad briefly came to power amidst the political vacuum and invited his supporter, Tashtimur, for a new post, Qarāja escorted him there. But Tashtimur was instead jailed and executed for unknown reasons, while Qarāja swiftly escaped north." I don't follow this. What does "for a new post" mean? An-Nasir Ahmad invited Tashtimur to take up a post in Cairo? Qarāja and Tashtimur are enemies, so does "escort" imply some sort of armed/prisoner escort? But if Tashtimur is An-Nasir Ahmad's ally, why does he need an escort? And what was Qarāja escaping from?
    Changed "post" to "appointment". Tashtimur and Qarāja, although initially rivals, became some sort of allies when Tashtimur was pursued by the Mamluks and escaped north. Thus, "escort" means that Qarāja and Tashtimur traveled together. Qarāja escaped from the upheaval that led to Tashtimur's arrest. Aintabli (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is "Malik al-Qāhir" in italics? Is this a title or a name?
    It's a title. Removed italics. Aintabli (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "emir Baybugha's revolt against the state and defeated Yalbugha": what state? The Mamluk Sultanate?
    Yes, changed that to "Mamluk state". Aintabli (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not an issue for GA, but what's the intended sorting order for the bibliography? It seems to be random.
    It was random. They are in the order as I added them when creating the article. Ordered them alphabetically. Aintabli (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:16, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks

[edit]
  • FN 5 cites "The first mention of him in sources is thought to be from 1317, when the Mamluk Sultan Al-Nasir Muhammad granted a Turkoman lord residing in Birga the title emir." The source appears to be "Kaynaklarda adına ilk kez 1317 tarihinde rastlanır. Bu sırada Birecik (Birke/Birgi) civarında yaşayan Zeyneddin Karaca Bey, Memlûk sultanı Kalavun’dan bir emirlik beratı almıştır (Gökhan, 2011; 191)." which Google translates as "In the sources, his name is first encountered in 1317. Meanwhile, Zeyneddin Karaca Bey, who was living in the vicinity of Birecik (Birke/Birgi), received an emirate certificate from the Mamluk sultan Kalavun (Gökhan, 2011; 191)." Is Kalavun the same as Al-Nasir Muhammad? Wouldn't that need a citation?
    Qalawun died in 1290. Al-Nasir Muhammad was the son of Qalawun, and thus his full name was al-Nasir Muhammad "ibn Qalawun". The author here somehow dropped the name of the sultan, but one of the sources he cited for that claim is titled Nâsır Muhammed b. Kalavun’un siyasi faaliyetleri (Al-Nasir Muhammad ibn Qalawun's political actions), and another source I found, İlkçağdan Dulkadirlilere kadar Maraş by İlyas Gökhan (page 173)[3], includes the full name of that sultan who gave Qarāja that title, and it is "en-Nasır Muhammed b. Kalawun". Should I add this source instead? It is clear that Alıç may have meant Ibn Qalawun (as many Islamic personalities were called by whom they were the son of, such as Ibn Battuta, Ibn Sina). But Alıç may have also mistaken "Ibn Qalawun" for Qalawun himself. Aintabli (talk) 15:55, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll leave it to you to figure out which are the best sources to use, but I don't think it can stay as it is -- if Alıç is imprecise we need another source to make it clearer. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yinanç (1988) also refers to Al-Nasir Muhammad on page 9. Changed Alıç with Yinanç. Aintabli (talk) 18:56, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • FNs 7 and 12 cite "The next year, Qarāja also captured Harpoot, Darende, Gemerek, and Gürün from the Eretnids." I can't see support for this in the Google translation of FN 12, and I don't have access to FN 7 -- can you quote the supporting text from each source?
    Eratnalılar’a ait olan Dârende, Gemerek ve Gürün bu akınlar sonucu Dulkadirliler’in eline geçerken (While Darende, Gemerek, and Gürün, owned by the Eretnids, came under the Dulkadirids as a result of these raids) in Kaya (2014), page 87. Darende seems to have held out until 1338 or perhaps 1339, when Karaca captured it... The Dulgadir were at first confined to Elbistan district, but shortly after 1337 captured Harput in Sinclair (1987) page 518. Aintabli (talk) 16:07, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 20 cites: "Qarāja is known to have had a brother and cousin, both of whom were given land by the Mamluk sultan in 1344 or 1345." Verified.
  • FN 7 cites: "In 1353, Qarāja took refuge in the court of the Eretnid ruler Giyath al-Din Muhammad": can you quote the supporting text?
    when Karaca and Dulgadiroglu tried to take refuge with him in 1353, he extradited him to the Mamluk authorities, by whom Karaca was executed. in Sinclair (1987), page 518. Aintabli (talk) 16:11, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 5 cites: "Qarāja likely belonged to the Bayat tribe." Verified.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:06, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Everything above is dealt with. One last read through and I have a couple of very minor points.

  • "The region around Marash in southern Anatolia was initially ruled by the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia." In a historical narrative like this "initially" makes no sense. Should this be "The region around Marash in southern Anatolia was ruled by the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia during the thirteenth century"?
     Done Aintabli (talk) 20:08, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Everything in the lead should be in the body, but we don't actually say in the body that he founded the Dulkadirid principality. Can we resolve this by changing "The Dulkadirids emerged around the same time" to "Qarāja ruled the Dulkadirid principality, which emerged around the same time"?
     Done Aintabli (talk) 20:08, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Once these two points are addressed I'll promote this to GA. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:46, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. Passing. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:27, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 12:59, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(
)

Improved to Good Article status by Aintabli (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 15:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Zayn al-Din Qaraja; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: the hook needs more work espically for a worrier. I will come back with some recommendation but feel free to recommend some since you probably know the article better FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:16, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

after further deliberations, I think the hook looks ok. FuzzyMagma (talk) 17:08, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Zayn_al-Din_Qaraja&oldid=1243938545"