Talk:Zak Kostopoulos

Merge proposal discussion October 2021

The editor User:Buidhe has proposed that the article I created, Zak Kostopoulos is merged into the article Killing of Zak Kostopoulos they created. I am saddened that anti-fascist activists and human right figures of Greece are being treated as notable in the English Wikipedia only due to their murders while dismissing their notability prior to their death as "doubtful" (per Buidhe's wording [1]). Zak Kostopoulos was a well known and respected public figure in Greece, an activist, a stage performer, a veteran writer and author for Greece's largest LGBT magazine, the AntiVirus, with 59 articles already: [2] and was regarded as the pulse of the LGBT community. He wasnt a non-notable activist that became notable after murder. He was notable already a long time before his murder. I am asking for the editors to reflect on this by not supporting merge of Zak Kostopoulos with Killing of Zak Kostopoulos. If two articles are too much for Wikipedia, then I propose the other way around: that the Killing of Zak Kostopoulos is merged into Zak Kostopoulos instead, just like how it was already done about Pavlos Fyssas and Murder of Pavlos Fyssas, another human right and anti-fascist activist of Greece. The Greece topic area is characterized by a lack of notable modern day activist figures, with the person articles created so far giving a heavier emphasis on figures unrelated to activism, usually politicians or bureaucrats, or figures that lived in previous centuries instead. This needs to be amended and give in the English Wikipedia some more prominence to the notable activists themselves, besides what harmful actions were done against them. For this reason I have created the article of the notable anti-fascist activist Pavlos Fussas, the article of child rights activist Marianna Vardinoyannis and so on. Thank you. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:31, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I am sure that his work did have an impact but I just don't think the notability is there for the individual as far as I cannot find independent, reliable sources that significantly cover him prior to the death. The background on his life can easily be covered in the killing article, which should be kept as it clearly meets WP:NEVENT (international media coverage years after the fact). (t · c) buidhe 17:40, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

as I cannot find independent, reliable sources that significantly cover him prior to the death What are you talking about? He was in some of Greece's largest and most prominent magazines and newspapers at the time, such as Marie Claire: [3], To Vima: [4] and 3 Point Magazine: [5]. Some of them, especially To Vima, are even used frequently in various articles in the Greece topic area across the Wikipedia Project. If finding reliable sources about that person prior to their murder was your problem here, you should just have asked before suggesting an article merge. Not only big ones, but even smaller media. But the fact that you seem to have even ignored the country's largest LGBT magazine I mentioned in the first post, where he was a veteran author, does not instill me faith that you are evaluating objectively the facts. This dismissal attitude of your part towards a LGBT activist's notability is unacceptable. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:48, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I also disagree with the merge, for the same reasons addressed above by SilentResident. Kostopoulos was a notable activist in Greece, and aside of what was already stated above, he also run as a candidate for the municipal council of Athens back in 2014. Also, there are a number of reliable independent sources that cover him prior of his death; some are already included in the article, others were mentioned by SR above, and i also found this interview as well. There was a similar discussion in the Greek Wikipedia three years ago, about the notability of the individual and a merge proposal (here). Demetrios1993 (talk) 22:45, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi, interviews of the subject are not independent sources and aren't counted when determining notability. This has been discussed a lot at WT:Notability. (t · c) buidhe 15:22, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

This might have been discussed a lot in the respective talk page, but i don't see any mention of it in Wikipedia:Notability, describing the actual guideline. It might be implied though, if we take into account that it does state the requirement of secondary sources for establishing notability, and interviews are generally considered primary sources. In any case, we aren't only referring to interviews. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:44, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it's not explicitly mentioned because there is already a requirement for sources to be independent. What sources other than interviews are giving significant coverage to Kostopoulos' life not in the context of his death? (t · c) buidhe 17:00, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Buidhe, your attitude against Zak Kostopoulos is unhelpful. Zak Kostopoulos was a human rights activist and he was well-known through his activism such as writing in newspapers and magazines, participating in protests and social media campaigns and by giving interviews to journalists. All these sources already exist, if to not mention information about his activism across mainstream articles published post-death. If you are not aware of what the primary forms of activism are, then I can't help you. I strongly insist that Zak Kostopoulos retains his own article, because he was the President of the country's Gay and Lesbian community and as such, he acted as was a representative of the LGBT community through his activism. To disregard this by merging his article with the one about his killing, makes me doubtful of your intentions here. I want to assume WP:GOODFAITH and that your negative stance against his article isn't the result of homophobia or anti-LGBT bias. Please let the person's article stay. if the President of the Gay and Lesbian community of Greece can't have his own article in the English Wikipedia, then we got bigger problems than I thought. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:13, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Silent Resident, I am very pro-LGBT rights but I try not to let my biases impact Wikipedia editing. I don't think there is enough notability/ material for two articles in this case but I'm open to the possibility that I've missed something. (t · c) buidhe 17:36, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Well you do. Besides To Vima, the interviews, and the media coverage about the person, there is also a book about him: [6]. I have my doubts that notability is really your concern here. For example Pavlos Fyssas had far less notability than Zac did, and no books about that person, yet he still has an article in both the English and the Greek Wikipedias. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 22:54, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

There are probably many sources that cover Kostopoulos' life, outside the context of his death. Above we only focused on sources that were published prior of his death, but after that event he became even more famous. Haven't checked, but i am sure we will find more. In the mean time, as SR mentioned, we have a whole book presenting his life outside the context of his death. The book "Zak / Zackie Oh" started out in 2016 as a textual and photographic project by journalist Maria Louka and photographer Alexandros Katsis, narrating the life experiences of Zak Kostopoulos; it was eventually published in 2019. Demetrios1993 (talk) 11:29, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Through a quick search, i did find some additional material. Namely:

A VICE documentary, in which Zak stars along with two other individuals. It is meant to present the drag scene of Athens. This was published even before his death.

• Drag Νύχτες στην Αθήνα

Here is also an article about it.

• Drag Νύχτες στην Αθήνα

Faster than light (2019) is a work of multiform cinema, or visual poetry, that presents Zak through his drag persona, Zakie Oh, alongside members of Zak/Zackie's artistic milieu.

• FASTER THAN LIGHT

Interview of four drag queens describing Zak.

• H Zackie Oh μέσα από τα λόγια τεσσάρων drag queens

Article which mentions the proposal of the SYRIZA faction inside the municipal council of Athens, to rename Gladstonos St. to Zak Kostopoulos St., in order to contribute to the campaign of the LGBTQI community.

• Πρόταση Ηλιόπουλου για μετονομασία της οδού «Γλάδστωνος» σε «Ζακ Κωστόπουλου»

It didn't take more than 15 minutes to find all these; surely there is more. Demetrios1993 (talk) 22:56, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

There is alot more, at least counted 100 Greek and non-Greek sources. Every Wikipedia editor can do a quick search and find any of the if they wish. Also I am informed by reliable people from my environment that more books are being written about that person as we speak. It is clear that we are talking about a notable person that meets Wikipedia's WP:NOTABILITY criteria and the WP:RS. I looked into Buidhe's contributions log and I realized that this editor is a supporter of the LGBT rights. I want to apologize to them for having doubts about that. In light of the sheer ammount of sources, I humbly and kindly ask that Buidhe removes the merge proposal from the article I have created for that person, whom I am ashamed for not having realized sooner that they were lacking their own article. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:42, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed (again) the Article Merge tag: [7] which was added on faulty grounds. Any further attempts to restore the tag for a third time despite that person's indisputable WP:NOTABILITY, will leave me no other option but take the matter to the Administrator's noticeboard and seek admin attention there, as I cannot take lightly any challenges to the prominence and notability of LGBT people or people from vulnerable communities, here in the English Wikipedia. The LGBT topic area, remains politically sensitive and requires utmost caution by the editors when dealing with it. Thanks and good day to everyone. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 09:07, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Formal request has been received to merge: Zak Kostopoulos into Killing of Zak Kostopoulos; dated: September 2023. Proposer's Rationale: The individual is only notable for his death and how it caused uproar in the LGBTQ community, most of the content in his biography article already exists in the one about his murder, and what little content not there can easily be put there. ~2603:7000... Discuss here. GenQuest ^"scribble" 02:10, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• Ping prior respondees from two years ago: @SilentResident:, @Buidhe: @Demetrios1993:

• • Oppose per the relevant discussion from two years ago. Kostopoulos was a notable activist in Greece prior to his killing in 2018; there was even a book about his life experiences, which began as a project in 2016. I doubt this new proposal, initiated by 2603:7000:26F0:74B0:F0C2:5738:9EA0:6362, took into account the aforementioned discussion. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:56, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
    • @GenQuest: For the record, i was against a merge of Zak Kostopoulos into Killing of Zak Kostopoulos; i am fine with the merge of Killing of Zak Kostopoulos into Zak Kostopoulos, that you eventually did. This does makes sense, and i should have elaborated on that. Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Support merge to here. There is no reason that readers should have to jump between two articles to learn about this gentleman and his fate. They are small, and would fit together nicely into a coherent entry. The SPLIT is unjustified, unneeded, and a disservice to our readers. This is an encyclopedia, not a news service. Per MEMORIAL. Regards, GenQuest ^"scribble" 17:20, 26 September 2023 (UTC)