Talk:Zadar/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Austrian Empire (1815-1918): the age of nationalism

The objective and official source: [1]. Italian source previously edited is not objective and it is prolonging the Italian irrendentism.Zenanarh 20:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring

Since this article is under heavy violence of user Giovanni Giove whose edits are childish example of manipulating with data (citating the half of the original sentence, than changing the other part - so it has changed meanning and all of that to introduce his political attitude) I'm going to clean it, step by step and word by word if it's needed and I'll appreciate anyone to discuss about every change I make. So I go from the beggining. At first I will use simple sources from the net, but if it wouldn't be enough I can come out with academical stuff... It seems that only the name of the article can not be disputed...Zenanarh 22:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The name of the city

Zadar, also known by its Italian name Zara!? Known to whom? Maybe Italians?! New York is also known as Big Apple? So should we put there Big Apple?

From the source in Croatian: Prvi pisani spomen o životu naselja na području zadarskog poluotoka (Liburni, 4. st. pr.n.e.) - spominje oblik imena Jader - preuzet od starosjedilaca, i danas neotkrivenog značenja. Prolazeći povijesni put ime se mijenja u : Idassa (grčki izvori), Jadera (rimski izvori), Diadora, Iadera (u svome djelu "O upravljanju državom" Konstatin Porfirogenet daje objašnjenje prema kojem ime grada Iadera proizlazi od latinskih riječi iam erat - "već bijaše", tj. izgrađen prije Rima.). Za vladavine Venecije i kasnije Italije grad je poznat kao Zara. Iz rano-srednjovjekovnog romanskog oblika Iadra, što se izgovaralo Zadra, razvio se i današnji oblik imena - Zadar.

Translation:

The very first writing about Zadar mentioned the name Jader (Iader) – taken from the indigenes, the real meaning of that name is unknown, but some presume that some ancient hydrographic term was in question. Iader wasn't Latin name. Romans just used it. The name was changing to Idassa (Greek sources), Iadera (Roman sources), Diadora (Constantine Porphyrogenitus, 10th century), Iadera. Present name Zadar was developed from the early Middle Ages Roman version Iadra (Dalmatian language!), which was also spelled Zadra. The city was known as Zara during Venetian ruling of the city and later Italian . [2]

In other words - the city was known as Iader or Iadera for at least 1.100 years (9th BC – 3rd AD). It was known as Diadora maybe for a several hundred years (? – 10th)) as well as Idassa (3rd BC), depended who is the one who «knew», known as Zadar 1.000 years (10th – present) and known as Zara 500 years (15th – 20th).

It's absolutely irrelevant how it's known to Italians. With such a rich history… Zadar is the Croatian city and that's the only relevant fact. Other names that were in use should be placed in brackets. This is encyclopedia isn't it? So I will edit 3 names: Zadar (Iader – Liburnian; Zara – Italian); Zara just becuse it's fresh, no other reason…Zenanarh 22:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Pre Antiquity

The origin of the name Jader (Iader). The source written in Croatian language: [3]. Fragment: Šire zadarsko područje naseljeno je još od pradavnih vremena. Nalazi te ranije kulture datiraju još od starijeg kamenog doba, dok su u vrijeme neolitika arheološkim istraživanjima utvrđene brojne ljudske naseobine... Prije naseljavanja ilirskih plemena ovaj je prostor naseljavao pradavni mediteranski narod iz čijeg predindoeuropskog jezika vrlo vjerojatno potječe i sam naziv naselja - Jader, Jadra ili Jadera, koji su poslije preuzele i druge civilizacije. Ime naselja vezano je uz neki pradavni hidrografski pojam. Translation to English: All Zadar district is found to be populated by people since the ancient times. Discoveries of that earlier culture originated in the Late Stone Age, while numerous settlements were dated as early as in Neolithic. Before Illyrians, ancient Meditteranean people were settled in that area and the name of the settlement Iader, Iadra or Iadera (also spelled Jader, Jadra or Jadera) came from their Pre-Indo-European language, could have been connected with some hydrographical term. This name was lately used by other civilisations.Zenanarh 15:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe "Pre Antiquity" is not good term since periods in question are Late Stone Age, Iron Age and Bronze Age. If somebody have better idea...Zenanarh 15:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Antiquity

Sources: [4], [5], [6], [7]. Population of Liburnian Iader and Roman Iadera were estimated (no reliable data) by Marčić (1928) and Peričić (1999) by the source "Zadar Population Development"[8].

Middle Age

Upon the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the destruction of Salona in the early 7th century, Zara became the capital of the Byzantine theme… This is incorrect… The name of the city is Zadar as well as the name of this article, not Zara. Zara was found in later stage in Venetian documents! In 5th century Zadar was ruled by Ostrogoths and was the part of the Byzantine Empire in 6th century (Dalmatia was union of the autonomic cities) and by 7th century the capital of Dalmatia

In 998, the city sought Venetian protection… This is incorrect. Zadar and Venice were the enemies. Venetians protected Zadar?! From whom? Themselves? The people of Zadar sought protection from their enemies? Interesting… The truth is that in 1000 Venetians attacked Zadar for the first time and their administration lasted for 2 years. That was not some protection…

…for the next four centuries it was under Venetian or Hungarian rule, changing hands repeatedly Incorrect again… In fact it was under the Croatian rule, see “History of Zadar nobility” in the talk page, since the city had municipial autonomy. There was no Hungarian rule at the later stage… There was Croatian – Hungarian rule! It was dual kingdom of both Croatia and Hungary. Croatia didn’t disappear niether lost its borders just because the kings were from Hungarian family!!! Read the history. In all that period (1000 – 1358) the city was not under Venetian rule exactly – it was caught in the wars with Venice and in a few short periods Venetians, who were the stronger rivals, occupated it and imposed their “administration”, but they had non of control upon the city and its citizens. Continual rebelions, insurrections and fighting (inside the city walls at that point) against Venetians were the historical factuality.

In the 10th, and especially in the 11th century, although it survived the migration of Slavs, in this time, for about 50 years, it was ruled by the Kingdom of Croatia. There was no need to survive the migration of Slavs in these centuries. Migration of Slavs occurred from 6th to 8th century. Avars and Slavs, together, were attacking Dalmatian cities in a short period in 7th century. In the 10th century Croatian language was already common in Zadar and Dalmatia. In fact 2 languages were spoken: Dalmatian language in the cities and Croatian language in the cities and everywhere outside the cities. That is the reason why the noblemen of Zadar and other Dalmatian cities used Croatian and Dalmatian versions of their names. See “History of Zadar nobility”.

Dalmatian language (See “Demographic history of Zadar” in the talk page) was written in documents in Latin alphabetics and therefore Croatian names got the Dalmatian “shape” in those documents. The point is that Zadar patricians and noblemen, who were judges, notars were using Latin alphabetics in documents, inscriptions and notes. Venetians documents used “Zara” and Italian language (not Dalmatian!) in their documents, so it can not be relevant for Zadar, since Zadar citizens didn’t use it.

In 1117, Pope Alexander III visited Zadar. A document from that time noted that the inhabitants of Zadar greeted the Pope singing songs "in their Slavonic language".

See Croatian language: The beginning of the Croatian written language can be traced to the 9th century, when Old Church Slavonic was adopted as the language of the liturgy. This language was gradually adapted to non-liturgical purposes and became known as the Croatian version of Old Slavonic. The two variants of the language, liturgical and non-liturgical, continued to be a part of the Glagolitic service as late as the mid-9th century. Until the end of the 11th century, Croatian medieval texts were written in three scripts: Latin, Glagolitic, and Croatian Cyrillic (arvatica, poljičica, bosančica), and also in three languages: Croatian, Latin and Old Slavic. The latter developed into what is referred to as the Croatian variant of Church Slavonic between the 12th and 16th centuries. Glagolitic inscriptions and documents were found in Zadar as early as in 9th century. The source: “Croatian Glagolitic Heritage in Zadar and Zadar district” by Darko Žubrinić, 2004. [[9]]. It’s written in Croatian. Is there any need for translation?

In 10th century Zadar (as the city) had political autonomy, but it was culturally, economicaly and even militarilly connected to Croatia (Zadar surroundings were already the part of Croatia and naturally, the city was dependent of its surroundings), which was affirmed in 11th century by treaty. Venetians were trying to conquer Zadar and to cut it off from its surroundings, so on that condition they could weaken it. Actually they succedeed it in 15th and 16th century, not before. The period between 11th and 14th century was called the golden years of Zadar, as well as later period under Venetian government (15th – 18th) was called the dark centuries in its history. This is history of Zadar in Middle Age by all relevant sources.

Sources: [[10]], [[11]], [[12]]Zenanarh 11:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring 23.06.07.

I'm going to make evidence this way on every change by mr. Giovani so anyone could see what is going on here and I'll be glad especially if any administrator could see this... All my edits are transparent, followed by sources and described on the talk page. I cannot make consensus with a person who is avoiding the talk page...

This was my last edit (23.06.07): [13]. He obviously wants to prove that Zadar is Italian city (which is more than funny idea) so he have deleted anything where Croats, Croatia,... were mentioned: [14]

1. He uses Italian name of the city (Zara) even the article and the city is called ZadarZenanarh 11:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I use the wikirule of historical name. Zara was Zara until 1947.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Giovanni Giove (talk • contribs) 08:32, 23 June 2007

Zadar citizens didn't call it Zara all the time until 1947. Venice used this name at first in the documents, later they conquered the city. Zara was in usage in administrations and in public but not all the time and not by all population of the city, from 15th to 20th century. That population was not even of Italian roots. They were the mostly Italian speaking Croats or pro-Italians... Coming with the sources soon.Zenanarh 13:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

University of Zadar was founded in 1396 - Universitas Iadertina

Wikirule of hystorical name? Link please...Zenanarh 17:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

2. In the middle of the sentence he sets needless point: because of the Slavic invasions - to accent some imaginary rivalty between Zadar and Croats. Slavic invasions did happen but by the means of all of the western Balkans. No continual wars between Slavs and Zadar occured in the 7th century or later! Zenanarh 11:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

In the 7th century, Slav destroyed an amouunt of Dalmatian and Istrian cities, such as Salona adn Epidarum. It was becausum of this invasion that some Latin peopple foundend new cities such as Ragusa and Spallatium to find a new shelter against the raids..—Preceding unsigned comment added by Giovanni Giove (talk • contribs) 08:32, 23 June 2007

You are talking about Sclavens, groups of warriors who came to the western Balkans with Ostrogoths and Goths at first in 5th century and some more in 7th century, when they attacked Dalmatian cities together with Avars. They make just a part of Croatian ethnogenesis. Who where those Latin people that you are talking about? Romans? Wrong! They were Romanized Illyrians! Dalmati tribe in fact. More than 50% of modern Dalmatia population (Croats) are descendents of Illyrian tribes: Liburni, Delmati, Iapodes and western Ardeiai. Coming with the sources soon Zenanarh 13:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

3. He deleted: Meanwhile, the Croatian state was forming inland, and trade and political links with Zadar began to develop. Croatian settlers began to arrive, becoming commonplace by the 10th century and this: In the 10th the true rulers of the town were the Croats and Zadar sought independence from Byzantium- no need for comment...Zenanarh 11:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The kingdom of Croatia ruled the city for a Short time, It is know that it was a short living state, and it was soon conquered by Hungary, whose king got the crown. The hingaruan kingdom did not inluded Dalmatia..—Preceding unsigned comment added by Giovanni Giove (talk • contribs) 08:32, 23 June 2007

The area was populated with Croats, the city too. Nin, the city of some Croatian kings is just a several kilometers in the west of Zadar.Zenanarh 13:16, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

4. He deleted: In 1102, the Croatian-Hungarian state was formed, and in 1105, Zadar officially recognized the rule of the first Croatian - Hungarian king Coloman, The rivalry with Venice intensified, and at the end of the first millenium the Venetians began a series of onslaughts and occupations that were to last over three hundred years. Zadar was a possession of the Republic of Venice between 1111 and 1154 and between 1160 and 1183. Their administration lasted throughout three unsuccessful citizen's uprising in 1159, 1164 and 1170 till 1181. The town was developing economically and culturally. The citizens of Zadar continued to recognize the sovereignty of Croatian - Hungarian kings up to 1202,

and replaced it with:

In 1183 it rebelled, asking protection to the Pope and to Hungary, but it was come again under Venetian controlo in 1202, - so it looks like Zadar was in the war with Croats, not Venetians!!!Zenanarh 11:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The king was Hungarian, and he was the ruler of Croatia. So he was Hungarian and not " Croatian-Hungarian", according to a nationalistic POV.

I restored one of the liens you have deleted.

Zara regerded their own indipendence against Venetians, Croatian Kigdom (for a short time), and Hungarian. Zara had no preference for a specific side, so the story is more colpicated that 'poor Zadar fighting agains evil Venetians'.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Giovanni Giove (talk • contribs) 08:32, 23 June 2007

Zadar was culturally and economically connected to Croatia and Croats. See "the history of Zadar nobility" - Croatian and Dalmatian names until 15th century! - no Italians! It was caught in the wars with Venetians. Zadar citizens had communal autonomy, that is sure. You obviously forget that Dalmatian language is not equal to Italian language. That language dissapeared but many words and toponyms are saved in modern Croatian language - not Italian! Zenanarh 13:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

5. He deleted: but they had to surrender under the worst conditions - obviously he wants to hide any historical fact which compromised the role of Venetian politics against Zadar! And of course he used "Zara" again.Zenanarh 11:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The line is unquoted and weasel. Zara surrended: what are this "wors coonditions"?. Of course u want to enforce the sterethipes of the Evil venetians.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Giovanni Giove (talk • contribs) 08:32, 23 June 2007

I reverted the page to my last edit and I'm ready for discussion on the talk page. Zenanarh 23:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

You have just restored the POV that you added to the previous version. I will restore the page to the version prior to your arrive.--Giovanni Giove 08:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

That's not POV! That is official history, even in Britannica! And you didn't revert it to the version prior to my arrive! You reverted it to your last version. You are manipulating again!Zenanarh 10:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

You added several POV and Weasel words, not included in Britannica. 0ve restored to the version prior to your arrive. Now you have the chance to edit it in the proper way without massive unsourced edits.--Giovanni Giove 12:01, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

You really think that all of us here are stupid or crazy? Version prior to my arrive? Massive unsourced edits? Anyone can see what you're doing here! Do you really think that you can hide it with comments like previous one?Zenanarh 13:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

What you have done, was to copy&past the 'history' of some Croatian tourist sites. Their level is comic. Zadar was called 'Zara' by the Italians in 1920. LOL.--Giovanni Giove 20:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It is true that I've previously used sources from the net (tourist sites) but it's also true that those sites use reliable data from the history books. I didn't have to translate it that way. The most richest history of Zadar was written in 3 toms of "Povijest Zadra I,II,III" in Croatian language in the very same place - Zadar, with the basis in all known historical sources - Zadar archives in Zadar - in the first place (old documents, inscriptions, papers, books,... in Latin, Dalmatian, Croatian and Italian language), as well as the sources written in Venice in Italian language and others. Your source is irredentismo page which is historical fake created by irredentists in Dalmatia in the second half of 19th century. The best of all is that even these Dalmatian irredentists were the mostly of Croatian roots, not Italian! But never mind I'm preparing the original sources and researches so you could learn something about Zadar finally. Zenanarh 17:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

RFC

List your arguments and sources here and please remain civil. The dispute is over the Italian and Croatian occupation of the city and the correct terms of the city name for different periods of its history. Policies and guidelines involved include Manual of Style, Neutral point of view, Reliable sources and verifiability of information --Dark Falls ^talk 22:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Zenanarh

The article is 35 times changed by Giovane Giovani from 22.6. to 01.07. Many versions of Zadar history were introduced and the last one is combination of other encyclopedia material and sets of proofs why Italians have hystorical rights of Dalmatia and particularly Zadar, even they had never made a majority in the region. Where to begin? – the name. What wiki or any other rule proposes usage of Zara as the name of the city through all its history when it was the name not earlier than 15th century until 1943.

Scripts of Zadar notars in 13th and 14th century: [15]

Spisi zadarskih bilježnika Henrika i Creste Tarallo 1279.-1308./Notariorum Jadrensium Henrici et Creste Tarallo acta quae supersunt 1279.-1308.Mtirko Zjačić, Notarilia Jadertina/Spisi zadarskih bilježnika (dalje SZB) 1, Zadar, 1959.

Spisi zadarskih bilježnika Ivana Qualis, Nikole pok. Ivana, Gerarda iz Padove 1296…1337/Notarium Jadrensium Johannis Qualis, Nicolai quondam Johannis, Gerardi de Padua acta quae supersunt 296…1337. - Mirko Zjačić i Jakov Stipišić, SZB 2, Zadar, 1969.

Spisi zadarskog bilježnika Franje Manfreda de Surdis iz Piacenze 1349.-1350./Notarii Jadrensis Francisci ser Manfredi de Surdis de Placentia asta quae supersunt 1349.-1350. - Jakov Stipišić, SZB3 , Zadar, 1977.

Usage of the Croatian – Zadranin during Venetian government:

First 2 pages [16] of a book "Vazetye Szigheta grada / szlosheno po Barni Karnarutichiu Zadraninu.
Translation is: "The Capture of Szigetvar, ...by Barne Karnarutić of Zadar from 1661.

First page [17] of a book "Vila Slovincha Givrgia Barachovicchia Zadranina v çettare varsti petya sloxena ça yest v pismi schvpne, u osmo redche u zuçno poyche i u polvredche. Printed in Venice in 1614. Zenanarh 22:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

About Idassa – name of Zadar found in the Greek inscriptions:

M.Suić: Odabrani radovi iz stare povijesti Hrvatske, Zadar, 1996. (Selected essays from old Croatian history), page 230:

…onda bi se ipak moglo ono ιδασσα zajedno sa αττιενιτης rekonstruirati u ime Zadra, odnosno u njegov etnik, ali ne u obliku, u kakvom ga sretamo u antici (Jadestini), već u kasnijem, ranosredovječnom Jaderatini (ІАΔΕΡΑΤΙΝΟΙ) prema obliku Jadera, koji je u kasnoj antici i u ranom Srednjem vijeku posvema prevladao, naprama klasičkom Jader.

Translation: …in that case those ιδασσα and αττιενιτης could be reconstructed as name of Zadar and its ethnicity, but not in form which was found in Antiquety (Iadestines), but more in later, early-Medieval Iaderatines (ІАΔΕΡΑΤΙΝΟΙ) according to form Iadera, which was absolutely predominated in late-Antiquety and in early-Medieval, exchanging the classical Iader.

Conclusion: the name of Zadar was Iader (Jader) in Antiquety, Idassa was Greek version of early-Medieval Iadera (Jadera).

M.Suić: Prošlost Zadra – knjiga 1 “Zadar u starom vijeku”, Zadar, 1981. (History of Zadar – book 1 “Zadar in ancient ages”), pages 111-112:

…ilirskom jeziku pripada i predrimsko i antičko ime Zadra, nezavisno od mogućnosti da je ono nastalo i u predilirsko vrijeme. U izvorima ono se javlja u dvama oblicima: Iader i Iadera, s različitim grafijskim varijantama, a ime njegovih stanovnika s oblicima: Ίαδασινοί, Ίαδαστινο (na grčkim natpisima?), Iadestini i Iadertini, a u postantičko doba Jadrenses, Jaderani, Jaderitani i dr. (većinom u Codex diplomaticus II i III t u srednjem vijeku pojavljuje se oblik Jadertinus, -a, -i. Pitanje je da li se u tome ogleda neprekinuti nastavak antičke tradicije ili je to učena rekonstrukcija u službenoj srednjovjekovnoj latinštini.) Oblik Iader susreće se podjednako u natpisima kao i u djelima klasičnih pisaca, a oblik Iadera pretežno u pisaca, i to onih kasnijih. Teško je utvrditi koji je od njih primaran. Činjenica je da Iadera prevladava u kasnijim djelima i da su upravo od njega razvili hrvatski naziv Zadar i talijanski Zara….

Translation: ...pre-Roman and Antique name of Zadar belonged to Illyrian language, irrespective of the possibility that it had been originated in pre-Illyrian ages. It was found in the sources in 2 forms: Iader and Iadera, with different graphy variances, the name of its citizens in forms: Ίαδασινοί, Ίαδαστινο (Greek inscriptions?), Iadestines and Iadertines, in post-Antique ages Jadrenses, Jaderani, Jaderitani and others (form Jadertinus was found mostly in Codex diplomaticus II and III in Middle Ages. The question is uninterrupted continuation of Antique tradition or educated reconstruction in official Medieval Latinism.) The form Iader was found equally in the inscriptions and in the writings of the classic writers, form Iadera was found predominantly among later writers. It's hard to establish which is primal. The fact is that Iadera predominated in later writings and that was the form from which Croatian Zadar and Italian Zara were developed....

Page 113:

…Etnik Iadestinus (pl. Iadestini) načinjen je pomoću u ilirskom jeziku čestog formanta –st-, koji se pojavljuje i s vokalom –i- i s vokalom –a-, pa vrlo vjerojatno i u imenu samih antičkih Zadrana, ako se oni kriju pod nazivom Ίαδαστινοί, što ih donosi, kako će se vidjeti, jedan grčki natpis iz Salone, koji potječe iz prve polovice 1. st.pr.n.e. Etnik završava sufiksom –ino koji je također čest na tlu starih Ilira.

Treba još dodati, da je naglasak i u obliku Iader i u obliku Iadera bio na prvom slogu, što je utjecalo na postanak ranosrednjovjekovnog romanskog oblika Jadra od kojeg su se razvili nazivi za grad u hrvatskom i u talijanskom jeziku, gdje je akcent zadržao svoje izvorno mjesto. Jadra je ustvari samo grafija u službenoj srednjovjekovnoj latinštini, sačuvana tradicijom. U ranoromanskom periodu to se izgovaralo Zadra, jer je grupa –Ja-, kao i drugdje, prešla u Za-. U mletačkom narječju grupa je –dr- prešla u –r- (što je jedna od karakteristika tog dijalekta, upor. patron – paron), dok se u našem jeziku sačuvala, pa se iz toga vidi da je hrvatski naziv bliži izvornom obliku od talijanskog naziva, koji je preuzet iz mletačkog. U muški rod Zadra je prešla kongruencijom s apelativom «grad», upravo kao Sisak od Siscia.

Translation: …Ethnicity Iadestinus (pl. Iadestini) was made of frequent formant in Illyrian language –st- which was found together with vocals –i- and –a- , also very possible in the name of Antique Zadar people, if they were hidden behind the name Ίαδαστινοί, from a Greek inscription from Salona in the 1st half of 1st century BC. Ethnicity was ended with suffix –ino which was also often found in the territory populated by Illyrians. Very important is that accent was on the first syllable in both forms Iader and Iadera, which influenced the early-Medieval Roman form Jadra, from which in addition were developed the names of the city in Croatian and Italian language, where accent kept its original place. Jadra was actually only a graphy in official Medieval Latinism, saved by tradition. In early-Roman period it was spoken Zadra, because the group –Ja-, as everywhere, was transformed to Za-. In Venetian dialect, the group –dr- was transformed to –r- (that is one of the characteristics of of that dialect, examples patron – paron), in the contrary it was saved in Croatian language, so obviously Croatian name was closer to original form than Italian name, which was undertaken from Venetian dialect. Zadra (female gender) was transformed to male gender (Zadar) by congruence with appellative «grad» ("city" in Croatian language - male gender), in the same way as Sisak from Siscia.

Obviously this corresponds with historical facts: Croats have been common people in Zadar from 9th, 10th, 11th centuries. Venetians occupied it in 15th century and brought new name for the city - Zara. Italian name is the youngest, used only from 15th to 20th century and not by all of its citizens.

More to come. Zenanarh 17:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

About Diadora

Diadora as a name of Zadar was found in Constantine Porphyrogenitus De Administrando Imperio in 10th century. A few theories were developed by scientists. P.Skok (“Studije iz ilirske toponomastike” Glasnik Zemaljskog muzeja, 29/1917, Sarajevo) considered that it had come from Slavic spoken format Zadera.

B. Gabričević: “Kako je nastao naziv Diadora“, Radovi 1975/1976 sv. 14-15, Filozofski Fakultet Zadar (“How the name Diadora originated”, Essays 1975/1975, 14-15, Philosophic Academy Zadar), page 133:

Za početno di- navedeni naš znanstvenik je smatrao da se radi o grafijskoj oznaci za glas z , budući da se u ranom srednjem vijeku Iadera izgovaralo Zadera. Što se tiče vokala ο, koje je umjesto e došlo između konsonanata d i r, Skok je bio mišljenja da je Porfirogenet time “učinio koncesiju slavenskom poluglasu u izgovoru ovoga imena mjesta”. Pri tome naime treba imati u vidu da su Slaveni, došavši na Jadran, bili već zatekli kako fonetsku promjenu j > z, tako islabljenje vokala u nenaglašenoj penultimi, što je u romanskom govoru dovelo do sinkope (Jadra koje se izgovaralo Zadra, odakle i kasniji talijanski oblik Zara), a u slavenskom do kompenzacije poluglasom (Zadъrъ > Zadar) i do prevođenja u muški rod, …

Translation:A scientist (Skok) considered that initial di- was a graphy mark for voice z, since Iadera was spoken Zadera in early-Medieval. Concerning vocal o, which exchanged e between consonants d and r, he thought that Porphyrogenitus “made a concession to Slavic half-vocal in spoken name of the city”. It must be kept in mind that Slavs in the moments when they had arrived on the Adriatic found already finished: phonetic change j > z and weakening of vocals in atonic penultima, which resulted in Romance speaking with syncope (Jadra spoken Zadra from which later Italian Zara was developed) and in Slavic speaking compensation with half-vocal (Zadъrъ > Zadar) and translating to male gender… This theory was disputed by A. Mayer (Die Sprache der alten Illyrier, Wien, 1957) and B.Gabričević(-):

B. Gabričević: “Kako je nastao naziv Diadora“, Radovi 1975/1976 sv. 14-15, Filozofski Fakultet Zadar (“How the name Diadora originated”, Essays 1975/1975, 14-15, Philosophic Academy Zadar), page 135:

Prigovor na Skokovo tumačenje da omega u nazivu Diadora predstavlja zamjenu za slavenski poluvokal izrazio je A.Mayer navodeći da je takva pretpostavka nedokazljiva.

Translation: Skok’s interpretation that omega in the name Diadora was exchange for Slavic half-vocal was disputed by A.Mayer who said that it couldn’t be proved. Page 37:

…Odatle bi se moglo zaključiti da oblik Diadora uopće nije Porfirogenetov, nego da je nastao najvjerojatnije uslijed lapsusa prepisivača koji je umjesto epsilon u prepisivanju unio omega.

Translation: …Thus could be considered in summary that format Diadora was not Porphyrogenitus’s one and that it originated most likely due to the error of the copyist who had edited omega instead epsilon into a rewrite.

B. Gabričević disputed Skok’s theory but with a notation:

Page 135:

…pretpostavka o slavenskom refleksu toponima Iadera, kao podloga za Porfirogenetov oblik Diadora, nije ni s užeg lingvističkog stajališta potpuno bez zamjerke.

Translation: …conjecture about Slavic reflex of the name Iadera , as a mount for Porphyrogenitus format Diadora , is not nor with frowzy linguistic view signed free of umbrage.

The research and method are too detailed so I have quoted just summaries. Issue is whether denomination Diadora turned up through Slavic word format or by fault. Second opinion could be nearer to the reality than first one. Italian format name yet turned up at a later time so it was not mentioned in the research.

I think Dr. Gonzo's proposal is the good one. But very important fact is that there are many articles connected to Zadar article where Zara is edited in the same way as it was here, so this solution should be applicated to all of it. For example: Siege of Zara article. The age was 1202 and the city was not called Zara! Zenanarh 18:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Also the origin Iader - scientists conclude that it was not Latin name, but much older: Liburnian for sure but maybe even older - pre-Indo-European Zenanarh 18:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

About the origin of the name

Mate Suić: «O imenu Zadra», Zadar Zbornik, Matica Hrvatska, Zagreb 1964 ("About the Name of Zadar")
Page 96:

Za ime grada Zadra može se pouzdano utvrditi da nije ni hrvatskog, ni romanskog, ni latinskog porijekla, već da je nastao u daleko predrimsko vrijeme... U dijelima antičkih pisaca i u natpisima iz istog vremena javljaju se gotovi oblici za naziv Zadra, a onda i u srednjovjekovnim dokumentima, kao Jader, Jadera, Jadra, te u drugim grafijskim i fonetičkim varijantama. Od ovog toponima načinjen je u antici i domaći oblik za etnikon (ime stanovnika) staroga Zadra, koji se ponajviše susreće u natpisima: Jadestini. Odvojivši nastavke... dolazimo do osnovnog elementa (korijena) iad- najstarijeg naziva grada Zadra. Proučavajući geografsku rasprostranjenost tog korijena, može se utvrditi da se on ponajviše susreće na etničkom teritoriju što su ga zapremali stari Iliri...

Translation: Concerning the name of Zadar it can be surely stated that it was not of neither Croatian, neither Roman, neither Latin ancestry, it originated in ancient pre-Roman ages... Finished formats of Zadar name were found in the writings of Antique writers and in the inscriptions of the same periods, later in Medieval documents, as Jader, Jadera, Jadra (Iader, Iadera, Iadra) and other graphic and fonetic variances. From this format, the name for ethnicon (name of the habitant) was developed in Antique – Jadestini (Iadestini). Without suffixes there is a basical element (root) iad- the oldest name of Zadar. According to the geographic incidences of that root, it can be stated that it was found mostly in the ethnic territory populated by ancient Illyrians...

Author now discuss about the element adr- and finds it in the Illyrian territory but also it can be found somewhat wider.

Sve to upućuje na zaključak da se postanje naziva grada Zadra potraži u još daljoj prošlosti, u predilirsko doba i da ga treba smatrati jednim od onih brojnih naziva mjesta što ih je staro mediteransko stranovništvo ostavilo po svim obalama Sredozemnog mora.

Translation: In summary originating of the name of Zadar should be found in much older past, in pre-Illyrian ages, and it should be concerned as one of those numerous names that ancient Mediterranean population left over across all Mediterranean coasts.

...Prema tome toponim Jader(a) možemo smatrati ilirskim u istoj mjeri, u kojoj suvremeni naziv Zadar smatramo hrvatskim, jer je pouzdano da je Jader ilirizirani oblik starije toponimije kojoj polazni oblik vjerojatno nećemo nikad saznati.

Translation: ...Therefore toponim Jader(a) / Iader(a) can be considered as Illyrian at the same degree as modern format Zadar is considered to be Croatian, since confidently Jader (Iader) was Illyrianized format of some older toponimy, of unknown initial format.

Obviously Iader was not Latin name. Noting it as Liburnian name would be the most correct.Zenanarh 12:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

About Zadar

Page 102-104:

U ranom srednjem vijeku naziv Zadra doživio je još jednu fonetsku promjenu jer je tada početno J- prešlo u Z-, što je karakteristično upravo za starodalmatinski romanski jezik… Ta se promjena morala dogoditi veoma rano jer se ona odrazuje i u hrvatskom nazivu za ovaj grad…

…ime stanovnika srednjovjekovnog Zadra s grafijom Jaderani, koje je zabilježeno u legendi o našašću tijela s. Krševana, a potječe, kako se misli, iz IX st… treba istaknuti da se taj oblik Jaderani, u izgovoru domaćeg življa IX st. jamačno Zad(e)rani , ne može odvajati od polaznog staroslavenskog oblika Zadъrane, od kojeg se razvio naš današnji etnik Zadrani.

Translation: There was one more phonetic change of the name in the early-Medieval, initial J- became Z-, which was a characteristic of old-Dalmatian Romance language… That change supposed to occur very early because it was reflected in Croatian name of the city too...
...name of the habitants of Medieval Zadar with graphy Jaderani, found in the legend about St. Krševan, as thought from 9th century… must be accented that format Jaderani, spoken Zad(e)rani by domestic population of 9th century, cannot be separated from initial old-Slavic format Zadъrane, from which ethnicity Zadrani was developed.

as seen in literacy through Medieval. Zenanarh 15:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

A. Škegro: "PROVINCIALE VETUS – Stari pokrajinski katalog ili Katalog provincija opće Crkve – Provinciale vetus sive Ecclesiae universae provinciarum notitia" , Hrvatska akademija znosti i umjetnosti, Zagreb, 2005
(PROVINCIALE VETUS - Old provincial catalogue or Catalogue of universal Church provinces, Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Zagreb, 2005). [18]

This is translation to Croatian language of the writing (original in Latin) which is full of data about late-Antique and early-Medieval accidents in church and political life of cultural Europe, compiled of several sources from different time periods and finally arranged by an author from the fall of early-Medieval ages. Last changes were from 13th century.

Previously to this edition it was last published by Jacques Paul Migne in his Patrologia Latina, Paris, 1851, compilation of Medieval sources.

It includes one of the most oldest lists of catholic bishops dioceses in Christian Medieval countries.

In the section Civitates Dalmatiae et Croatiae num. XX, 19 Croatian cities were noted as sitting places of dioceses. Zadar was noted as civitas Jadera.

Jadera = Zadar. Croatian language was in the earlier centuries written mostly in Glagolithic alphabetics especially in liturgy. When Croatian language in Zadar was written in Latin alphabetics it was done by Dalmatian language "grammatics". And in Dalmatian language letter J was spoken Z. Written Jadera was spoken Zad'ra. An earlier inscription from 9th century in the St. Simeon's church in Zadar found with graphy Jaderani , spoken Zad'rani, which is typical Slavic ethnonym for Zadar citizens (modern Zadrani - people of Zadar).

Mate Suić: «O imenu Zadra», Zadar Zbornik, Matica Hrvatska, Zagreb 1964 ("About the Name of Zadar", Zadar - Scientific essays, Zagreb 1964) on the page 102 mentiones a document from Medieval (12th century) Cod. dipl. III 231 where Latin Zadur which was Croatian Zadъr was found. This "Latin" literal variance is an example how Croatian name was used in the documents (written in Latin language) related to the Kingdom of Croatia and it clearly shows the weakening of the second syllable also present in Dalmatian variances Jadera->Jadra. Original source was last published: Smičiklas Tadija, ed. Codex diplomaticus Regni Croatiae, Dalmatiae et Slavoniae, sv. III, Zagreb 1905 Zenanarh 07:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

About Zara

U mletačkom govoru naziv Zadra doživio je dalji razvoj. U to jeziku naime grupa -dr- prelazi u -r-... Tako je i Jadra, u izgovoru Zadra prešlo u mletačko Zara, a odatle u talijanski kjnjiževni jezik. Vidi se prema tome da je hrvatski oblik Zadar bliži pratipu od kojega su se razvili moderni nazivi za taj grad.

Translation: Further development of the name was in Venetian language. A group -dr- transformed to -r- there... So Jadra, spoken Zadra was changed with Venetian Zara and from there later into Italian literral language. This proves that Croatian format Zadar is closer to pre-format from which modern names were developed. Zenanarh 18:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Historical usage of the name in other languages

Mate Suić: «O imenu Zadra», Zadar Zbornik, Matica Hrvatska, Zagreb 1964 ("About the Name of Zadar", Zadar - Scientific essays, Zagreb 1964)

page 103 (translation): …The name of the city was also found in old French chronics which were describing the accidents from Fourth Crusade (P.Skok: Tri starofrancuske kronike o Zadru u godini 1202., Zagreb 1951, - Three old-French chronics about Zadar in the year of 1202). The name of the city was Jadres there. It’s usually considered that this graphy had responded to the local people pronunciation of the name, according to format Jadra which was most found in the documents, with final –s of French language singular nominative. Some of the authors of these chronics were passing through the city so allegedly they were able to hear how native population pronounced the name. However a somewhat different view is much more convincing. In the age of Fourth Crusade Zadar was very important centre, known much far out of Dalmatia; its name written in official Latin was spreading through the documents and literal writings. Therefore much more logical conclusion is that authors of these chronics, written directly after the accidents that were described (a siege), simply Franchised a conventional graphy Jadra (-e- exchanging –a- and adding –s for nominative), taken from numerous written sources and without interference by local educated people...

Conclusion: original documents about the siege written by French writers in the same year were using Jadres!!! Crusaders were mostly Frenchmen and some of these chronic writers were actually some kind of literal escort of the Fourth Crusade. Zara in "Siege of Zara" was an invention of Italian historians in 19th century. Zenanarh 07:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Summary:

• Iader - Liburnian or older;
• Iader/Iadera - Antique (Greek: Idassa);
• Iader/Iadera/Iadra (Jader/Jadera/Jadra - spoken Zader/Zadera/Zadra in Dalmatian language, Zadar in Croatian) - early Medieval (Greek: Diadora);
• Jadera/Jadra (spoken Zadera/Zadra/Zadar), - Medieval (Venetian: Zara, Jatara)(Toscanian: Giara)(French: Jadres)(Arabian: Jadora, Jadera, Jadra - spoken as in English)...
• Zara (administrative), Zadar and Jadra (spoken Zadra) mostly in use - 1409-1798
• Zara (administrative), Zadar and Zara in use - 19th and 20th century til 1943
• Zadar - 1943-present Zenanarh 16:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

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