Talk:Zabân-e Pâk

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Joofjoof (talk) 06:56, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

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• ... that the treatise Zabân-e Pâk written by Ahmad Kasravi was one of the first works that sought to correct the Persian language? Source: Manafzadeh, Alireza. "[efforts in refining the Persian language]". Parsi Anjoman Journal.
  • ALT1:... that the treatise Zabân-e Pâk written by Ahmad Kasravi was one of the first works that sought to reform the Persian language?Source: Manafzadeh, Alireza. "[efforts in refining the Persian language]". Parsi Anjoman Journal.

Moved to mainspace by Amir Ghandi (talk). Self-nominated at 09:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC).

• Hi Amir Ghandi, this is quite an interesting article. As a first note, it's important to be careful with wording such as "correct". While it may be the opinion of some that a language needs fixing, that is not something that should be said in wiki-voice. "Reform" may be a good substitute word. On references, much of the article seems to be sourced to a single source, which is written by the author in question (is it this particular source?). It would be preferable to have more secondary sources added to the article. I am AGFing on the current offline/non-English sources. For the Kasravi references, the full reference should be written out as well, usually this is included as a bullet point underneath the short references. Best, CMD (talk) 10:11, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• Hey CMD, I think you're right "Reform" is a better word than "correct" for this case. However, Kasravi wrote this treatise in the correct Persian language. As for the sources, only "Sections of the treatise" uses one source, which is Kasravi's Zabân-e Pâk. Elsewhere, Kasravi's biography entitled "My Life" (1947) is used as a source, but the rest of the article uses multiple sources (mostly academic articles).Amir Ghandi (talk) 12:40, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• I am not questioning the existing sources, merely noting that if possible more would be useful. Please do spell out the full citations for both Kasravi books in bullet points below the reflist, so they can be better assessed. Could you reword the hook above to more neutrally describe the changes? CMD (talk) 13:59, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• "In 1916 I wanted to go to the American School (Memorial School). Because the knowledge I was pursuing, I felt the need to consider myself one of the European languages. I first studied French and learned some things by asking some acquaintances in French. But I knew from experiment that language could not be learned without a teacher. I talked to people and they said English is easier but you have to read it from the teacher. On the other hand, since I was selected as an Arabic teacher there, it was better for me to learn more Arabic from what I already knew. Thus, I spent that year learning only English and Arabic. This is how I tried to learn the language. Since then, as I spent several hours a day with English-speaking Americans and English-speaking students, I tried my best to improve by speaking or reading books at every opportunity." ahmad kasravi, My Life, p. 6-7 and 50.Amir Ghandi (talk) 14:48, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• Could you include that as a "quote=" within the "Cite book" template, as you have with some other sources in the article? And also provide a cite book template for the actual book itself? CMD (talk) 15:33, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Chipmunkdavis: Done Amir Ghandi (talk) 16:01, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Thanks, I have made some tweaks. There are a couple of unsourced sentences. "He strongly criticized this and called for the facilitation of the Persian language so that novices could easily learn it.", "He chooses the various ways in which we can make up for the lack of clauses that we have, to take the same Latin clauses and create new words with a symbol." Can you point to which references they are from? CMD (talk) 03:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
    • @Chipmunkdavis: I forgot to add but now I added references.Amir Ghandi (talk) 16:09, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
      • Thanks! Once again, really interesting topic. Before I pass this, could you write a new hook that reflects the article text changes to not imply a particular viewpoint is correct? I would also like to double check the sources, for example could you explain how the "Iranian Personalities: Ahmad Kasravi" source supports "He chooses the various ways in which we can make up for the lack of clauses that we have, to take the same Latin clauses and create new words with a symbol"? CMD (talk) 15:09, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
        • i added persian wiki source, but i think is better to delete it.Amir Ghandi (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
  • ALT2:... that the treatise Zabân-e Pâk written by Ahmad Kasravi was one of the first works that sought to suggest refinements of Persian language?Source: Manafzadeh, Alireza. "[efforts in refining the Persian language]". Parsi Anjoman Journal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amir Ghandi (talk • contribs) 17:31, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
    • • • • ALT2 is good, less strong than ALT1, although I invite the promoter to take a second opinion. Please delete the sentence with the odd source if you think that is better. Did you translate this from the Persian article? If so that should be attributed. Otherwise, this is good to go. CMD (talk) 12:52, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
            • that line is translated from persian article.Amir Ghandi (talk) 14:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
              • Were any other parts translated? (See WP:TFOLWP for explanation of the attribution needs.) CMD (talk) 17:10, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
                • no.Amir Ghandi (talk) 08:36, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
                  • In that case, on foreign sources, with a preference for ALT2 over ALT1 due to strength as mentioned above. CMD (talk) 08:46, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
                    • The sentence "The movement that Kasravi started, today known as "Sareh Persian", tries to use original Iranian words." is unreferenced. SL93 (talk) 00:12, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
                      • i finally find a reference, in From Saba to Nima (History of 150 years of Persian literature) by Yahya Arinpur, he mentioned that: Zabân-e Pâk was first book that suggested to use original middle persian words and it's consider as a part of "Sareh Persian" Movement.Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:33, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
                        • Restoring tick. SL93 (talk) 19:35, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Missing

I miss some examples (though usually example tables grow indefinitely). I also miss to know whether he had any influence in modern Persian. --Error (talk) 17:22, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

before Zabân-e Pâk, Persian was a mixed-up of self-created Arabic words with some Persian, if someone from today read a letter from Qajar period, hardlly can understand it. Kasravi basically saved some of Words that today are used, from being destroy and for the first time suggested that Persian script would be changed from Perso-Arabic to Latin. Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:01, 15 April 2021 (UTC)