Talk:Z Special Unit/Archive 1

Archive 1

Request

Please change Z Force all the way through. It is only known as Z Force by people who know nothing about Z Special Unit history. Few things rile/d the Z operatives more than being known as Z Force.

Well, I have read and heard Z Force members in interviews refer to it as Z Force, or "Z Special Force". Grant65 | Talk 09:24, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Grant65. The opening sentence explains it well "...also known as Z Force...". No need to change the article for the anon. Krait 10:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

It's a sign of respect - just because you think it shouldn't be changed! My Grandfather is in Z Special Unit and I am a member of Z Special Unit and it annoys them so much, so it has been chnaged! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anzac1974July 9, 2007 (talk • contribs)

Anzac74 please stop making alterations to the article which are against Wikipedia policy and/or the consensus of other editors. If you don't understand the objections to what you are doing, ask here. As for the name, see the official Wikipedia policy on this: WP:Use common names. Grant | Talk 06:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

In particular, please check out the instructions for Template:Infobox Military Unit. This is meant to be used to describe military units, and doesn't include reunion activities, etc. For instance, 'branch' refers to the service the unit formed part of, and not which branch of the RSL reunions are held at. Copying and pasting lengthy veterans biographies are copyright violations even if you provide a link, and biographys of non-notable people don't belong in an encyclopedia - especially if they're available on a stable government website. AFAIK, 'Z Force' is the most common name for this unit and even if it's not correct it's worth a mention - if for no other reason than to highlight that it's not the unit's correct name. --Nick Dowling 07:12, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Hate to tell you two but you are both wrong, this I can't understand. My Grandfather is in Z Unit and I am a member so the information I have is first hand and 100% correct BUT to be honest I don't have the time to keep correcting you two. So I'll point out a few of your glaring mistakes one last time and leave it at that - I understand that you two think you are correct but I guess it is a downside of having a WIKIpedia - you get people who think they know it all but don't! 1. "Z Force" is not their nickname - this is just what uneducated people call the Unit 2. Eric Dumesny is a notable person, he represented the Australian Defence Force at Borneo at the ceromonies, was one of the first navy personnel to join Z Special Unit - just because he didn't die or goes around telling everyone how great he is doesn't mean he isn't notable. Plus it was a lengthy biography - it's someones life - a BIOgraphy. 3. Also, it wasn't in breach of the Defence/Veterans' Affairs copyright laws, did you read the second link I provided???? I sourced the material, I referenced it, so it is not in breach of any copyright law!!!!!

And that's all I could be bothered doing, as I know you two people who have heaps of time on your hands and read lots of books and think you know something will have comebacks and wikipedia rules and laws and what nots, so I'll just leave it at that. I know I'm right as I talk to living members of the Unit, I march with them, I chat with them, have beers with them and we chat about the War, the Unit and life, so I know all about Z Special. One thing though, I am glad Z Special is on wikipedia and whoever started the page - well done, I'll give credit to you, what is on there is great with just a few mistakes. A lot more could be added but at least people out there are learning about the brave men who for 50 years after the war couldn't even tell their families what bravery they showed during the war.

ANZAC1974

I have worked closely with the Z Special Unit Association of NSW and they abhor the use of the term "Z Force". They refer to themselves as "SRD Operatives", "Z Men" or (army only) as members of "Z Special Unit".

Many Contemporary and post-war records (such as individual service records and nominal rolls) show the unit as "Z Force". This appears to have been a "Big Army" (AMF) administrative term for ISD/SRD. "Special Operations Executive - Australia" was the classified designation for the whole organisation with "Inter-Allied Services Department", the cover name. When SOE-A/ISD was disbanded, the organisation was absorbed into the Allied Intelligence Bureau and its classified name became "Special Operations Australia" with "Services Reconnaissance Department" as the cover name. Confused yet?

Note that "Z Special Unit" was an administrative unit created to allow AMF (Army) and civilian personnel to be paid and allocated through army systems. You'll notice that Navy, RAAF and foreign personnel such as Brits, Malays, Timorese, etc., were administered directly by the Services Reconnaissance Department (SRD) and before that, the Inter-Allied Services Department (ISD).

ISD/SRD's position in the public consciousness is very limited. It is likely that most folks searching for information on the subject will use the term "Z Force", hence it should appear, if only as a keyword for Google. The Men may not like it, but even they have to admit it has become the de-facto name for ISD/SRD. The public is never going to fully comprehend the chopping and changing that went on during the war. Specopsaust (talk) 06:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

S W Carey

I added a link to Samuel Warren Carey and will amend his entry to include info from here. Lt Walter Carey who lost his life in Op. Rimau was his brother. I have read elsewhere that S. Warren Carey, as he is usually known, was sent to New Guinea because the Captains of the ships in Townsville wanted him jailed. Fred.e 17:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I am working on a bio for CAPT. S.W. Carey for the SOA website. I will update his Wikipedia page with any new info I stumble across, referenced of course. Specopsaust (talk) 06:12, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Tidal River base

Tidal River, Wilsons Prometory in Victoria has a monument to both Z and M Force, Tidal River was a training base for both units but there is no mention of this in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.28.252.137 (talk • contribs) January 18, 2007.

Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). Grant65 | Talk 07:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Total Covert Missions

I find it hard to believe that a total of "284" missions/operations were done between 1943 and 1945. However I have accepted that it has been put there in the article. I feel that no-one will ever know the total amount unless they have been documented somewhere or have been told by the people who carried them out. There will also be holes in the paperwork or records either "partially closed" or "closed". I want to remain open-minded about Z Special Unit and it's "related" departments and it's history. What is your opinion? Adamdaley (talk) 05:11, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

The exact number should be verifiable - all of the files relating to Z Special Unit should have been released long ago. Very little from the WW2 era is still classified, and most of that relates to code-breaking, diplomatic relations and the like where there's still potential for the release of information to damage intelligence collection or national relationships. If no citation is provided and you can't find a source then the claim can, and should, be removed. Nick-D (talk) 06:48, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

There are two ways that I know of such missions, is: (1) Reading the books listed in the article. (The only books I do not have in my possession are by Tom Harrisson, David Horton or Francis A. Wigzell.). The other way is (2) By looking the Operation name on the internet and using either the "National Archives of Australia" or the "Australian War Memorial" websites to find more information about them. I would also like to hear from other contributors on where they obtain their information from. Adamdaley (talk) 23:53, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I have Harrisson and Horton, plus a biography of Harrisson (The Most Offending Soul Alive: Tom Harrisson and His Remarkable Life, by Judith M. Heimann), but I'm really only interested in Z Special's operations in Borneo, so haven't read widely. Harrisson was CO of SEMUT I. In the end note of World Within: A Borneo Story (p342) Harrisson writes (all italics are his):

I can quote from a booklet produced by the unit on the occasion of unveiling its Special War Memorial on Garden Island, Western Australia; this states:

"By the end of the war, SRD (Z Special) had grown to a force of 1,500 officers and ORs (mainly Australian but including many British, New Zealand, Canadian and South African operatives) and had raised and equipped some 6,000 native guerillas."

"The unit had inflicted some 1,700 casualties on the Japs at the cost of some 112 white lives."

"Eighty one operations had been carried out behind the enemy lines in practically every area from New Guinea to Borneo and the China and Malayan coasts. Reistance groups had been trained for the Philippines, and the interior of British North Borneo and Sarawak virtually reoccupied. It became quite apparent that the Japanese High Command had no answer to these activities."

"The extent of the success achieved during such a short period of clandestine and unorthodox warfare are in themselves a tribute to the courage, determination, resource and endurance of the Australian and other Commonwealth personnel who took part in them. Indeed the courage dispalyed is to some extent reflected by the large number of decorations awarded to so small a Unit."

What distinguished Semut, Operation Ant, as such, was the scale of country we were able to cover owing to the remarkable response of the native peoples of Sarawak and all within Borneo. Thus the same booklet officially credits my Semut I with 'over 1,000 Japanese killed', out of the 'Z' total of 1,700. On the other hand, of the 112 white lives, none were lost in Semut I (or II, or III) operations, which cost (to the best of records) only 11 Asians, including two blown up by their own hand grenades and four murdered by the Japs when acting as peace envoys (on the Limbang).

Shame he doesn't give more details about the booklet, but as it's an official Unit publication it must be fairly reliable. Horton also gives 81 operations (p150) but from the wording it looks like he's paraphrasing the Unit booklet. Jasper33 (talk) 11:32, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe the figure of 284 is incorrect. Horton gives a figure of 81 missions for Z Special force on page 150, whilst Courtney also gives the figure of 81 on page 14. I think the figure of 284 is actually 264 which, according to Powell on page 358 was the total number of AIB missions (not just Z Special Force). As such I am going to make this amendment.Anotherclown (talk) 08:20, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I've recently bought a copy of "Attack Force Z" movie, and it says at the beginning in a brief summary of "Z Special Unit" that it carried out "two hundred and eighty-four war time missions in the Pacific". Signed by a John R. Gardner possibly the "President" of the New South Wales "Z Special Force" Association. Still it has insufficient information about the missions. It only lays claims to two missions, Operation Jaywick and Operation Rimau. Adamdaley (talk) 03:11, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The Official history of Special Operations Australia Volume II Operations Copy No. 1 - Control Symbol O8/A at the National Archives of Australia lists 137. There were not 137 distinct operations as individual operations were conducted under the auspices of different projects and several of these operations had between four and six different phases, sometimes under different names. This is a difficulty I have encountered while researching ops for the Special Operations Australia website. Also, the ops listed in the Official History of SOA include not only SRD but also NEFIS III, NEI Section, NEA Section, ISD and Special Operations Executive - Australia. It's a jungle. The various organisations detached and merged and reorganised several times during the war so it's quite difficult for John Q. Public in the year 2010 to make heads or tails of it. Specopsaust (talk) 05:02, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Re: The SRD Garden Island Memorial booklet quoted in Harrisson's "World Within... A Borneo Story"... I am making the booklet available as a PDF on the Special Operations Australia Website look in the "downloads" section. Specopsaust (talk) 04:43, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

List of Operations

From text and Appendix 3 in Horton:

The Aru Islands

• Walnut I
• Walnut II

Borneo

• Agas I (Agas is the Malay for 'sandfly')
• Agas II
• Agas III
• Agas IV
• Agas V
• Semut I (Semut is the Malay for 'ant')
• Semut II
• Semut III
• Apple

Celebes

• Lion
• Apricot

Ceram

• Flounder
• Firtree

Damar Islands (between Timor and Tanimbar Islands)

• Turnip I
• Turnip II
• Salmon I

Halmahera Islands

• Opossum

Java

• Mackerel
• Tiger I
• Tiger II
• Tiger III
• Tiger IV
• Tiger V
• Tiger VI
• Poppy
• Parsnip
• Potato
• Goldfish I
• Goldfish II

Majoei Islands (between Celebes and Halmahera)

• Pine Needle

New Britain

• Scorpion

New Guinea

• Whiting
• Oaktree
• Crayfish
• Trout I
• Trout II
• Shark
• Carrot
• Radish
• Asparagus

Singapore

• Jaywick
• Rimau

Timor

• Lizard
• Lagarto
• Cobra
• Bream
• Sun Lag
• Sun Fish
• Sun Cob
• Sun Able
• Sun Baker
• Sun Charlie
• Sun Dog

That's 55; clearly the book wasn't covering all operations. I'm not sure about the quote in the Borneo section of the article In his memoirs, Blood on Borneo, Sgt Jack Wong Sue claimed that Z Special Unit commandos in Borneo killed 1,700 Japanese for the loss of 112 commandos I haven't see Wong Sue's book, but according to the Unit pamphlet quoted in the section above, 1,700 Japanese dead against 112 commandos was the total for all of Z Unit, not from just those operations in Borneo - the Borneo ops lost no commandos. Think that bit should be queried or removed. Jasper33 (talk) 12:28, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Other "Operations" from the INDEX of SILENT FEET: The History of "Z" Special Operations 1942 - 1945 by G.B. Courtney (1993):

• Adder
• Agas 1
• Agas 2
• Agas 3
• Agas 4
• Agas 5
• Binatang (Indonesia)
• Brim (?)
• Carpenter
• Cobra
• Copper
• Crane
• Crocodile
• Finch 1 (Moluccas)
• Finch 2 (Hiri & Ternate Islands)
• Finch 3 (Friwin, Jariffe and Salawati Islands)
• Finch 4 (Same as Operation Finch 3)
• Giraffe
• Jaywick
• Lagarto
• Lagartout
• Lancer
• Lizard 1 (Portugese Timor)
• Lizard 2
• Lizard 3
• Magpie
• Menzies
• Oboe
• Perch
• Platypus
• Politician
• Optician
• Portolizard
• Python
• Raven (North Celebes)
• Rimau
• Robin
• Semut 1
• Semut 2
• Semut 3
• Semut 4
• Shrill
• Sparrow Force
• Squirrel
• Stallion
• Starfish (Lombok 1945)
• Sunable
• Sunbaker
• Suncharlie
• Suncob
• Sundog (Includes Sundog Raid)
• Sunfish
• Sunlag
• Swallow (Loloda Islands)
• Swift (Loloda Islands)

That's 55 operations in one book. Some of the operations where a number of them were numbered were not included in the index but was paragraphed with the original operation. For example "Operation Semut" may have been listed in the index, while the other Operation Semuts were listed in the actually book with a paragraph or two about it. Adamdaley (talk) 05:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Should this list be created as its own article?

I think it should be. I noticed an error in Courtney's SILENT FEET list above. Sparrow Force was an Independent Company (Commandos) unit/command, not an operation. Components of the LIZARD parties operated in conjunction with Sparrow Force (or Lancer as it was renamed prior to evacuation) due to operational circumstances, but were a distinct operation unto themselves. . The page referenced contains operations summaries typed verbatim from the SOA Official History Operations volume (Control symbol O8/A - National Archives of Australia).

Complete Operations/Projects list from the Table of Contents of is as follows:

OPERATIONS IN TIMOR-LESSER SUNDAS

• Mackerel
• Tiger I
• Tiger II
• Tiger III
• Tiger IV
• Tiger V
• Tiger VI
• Lion
• Flounder
• Ambon 23-A2 (cancelled)
• Walnut I
• Walnut II
• Walnut III

Partizan Phase - Portuguese Timor

• Lizard I
• Lizard II
• Lizard III
• Portolizard
• Lagarto
• Cobra
• Adder

Mugger Plan, Darwin to Lesser Sundas Is

• Hornet
• Bat
• Apache
• Wasp
• Gnat
• Flea (cancelled)
• Louse (cancelled)

Air-Sea Rescue and raids - Timor and Timor Sea

• Sounder
• Sunfish
• Sunable
• Sunbaker
• Suncharlie
• Sundog Raid
• Blackfish (cancelled)
• Blackbird (cancelled)
• Sunlag
• Lagartout
• Brim
• Pigeon (cancelled)
• Suncob
• Cobrexit
• Salmon (cancelled)
• Carp (cancelled)
• Cod (cancelled)
• Starfish
• Anchovy (cancelled)
• Groper
• Demo

OPERATIONS IN NEW GUINEA

• Cockroach
• Beetle
• Ladybird
• Spider
• Tick
• Locust (cancelled)
• Whiting (21A)
• Scorpion (cancelled,)
• Mosstroops
• Menzies
• Perch
• Reaper
• Silver (originally Oak) (cancelled)
• Gold (originally Oregon)
• Copper (originally Ash)
• Crayfish

Uncompleted Operations, New Guinea

• Falcon
• Phoenix I
• Phoenix II
• Roc
• Dodo
• Moa
• Lennon
• Socrates
• Flathead

OPERATIONS IN BORNEO

• Python
• Agas I
• Agas I Patrol
• Agas II
• Agas III
• Agas IV
• Agas V
• Semut I
• Semut II
• Semut III
• Semut IV
• Squirrel
• Stallion I
• Stallion II
• Stallion III
• Stallion IV
• Stallion V (Gelding)
• Stallion VI (Mare)
• Stallion VII
• Stallion VIII (Filly Party)
• Stallion VIII (Colt Party)
• Stallion VIII (Foal party)
• Platypus I (Robin)
• Platypus II
• Platypus III
• Platypus IV
• Platypus V
• Platypus VI
• Platypus VII
• Platypus VIII
• Platypus IX
• Platypus X
• Platypus XI
• Platypus XII

Uncompleted Projects, Borneo Area

• Toad
• Vulture

OPERATIONS IN CELEBES AND MOLUCCAS

• Giraffe I
• Giraffe II
• Giraffe III
• Crane I
• Crane II
• Shrill
• Magpie I
• Magpie II (cancelled)
• Magpie III
• Raven
• Garfish (cancelled)
• Swallow
• Swift
• Finch I
• Finch II
• Finch III
• Finch IV

OPERATIONS IN CHINA SEA AND MALAYA

• Jaywick
• Rimau
• Politician-Optician
• Gunard
• Crocodile
• Carpenter I
• Carpenter II
• Carpenter III
• Carpenter IV
• Period (cancelled)
• Oblivion (cancelled)

Specopsaust (talk) 05:47, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I started this list a few days ago - feel free to get stuck in! It's on my user page because I knew I wouldn't have time to get it up to article/list standard straight away. Jasper33 (talk) 11:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Cheers Jasper, I'll have a crack at it as time allows. Specopsaust (talk) 01:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Operation Mosstroops

I've been trying to find information about this Operation "Mosstroops" or Operation "Moss Troops". It is listed on the National Archives of Australia as "Mosstroops" and does have "AIB" and "SRD" initials included in its search. It also states it was operational in "New Guinea and Islands East". Knowing the National Archives I have found inaccuracies in their "description" titles and their dates. Adamdaley (talk) 05:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

National Archives of Australia have uploaded another 225 pages relating to Operation Mosstroops on their website. The names/titles of these files are as follows if anyone wishes to look up those files:

• [New Guinea and Islands East -] Report on Operations, MOSS TROOPS [MOSSTROOPS], copy I [Sepik Valley] [Contents different from 'copy II']

• [New Guinea and Islands East -] MOSS FORCE [Operation MOSS TROOPS, MOSSTROOPS], copy II [Sepik Valley] [Contents different from 'copy I']

Hope this will help anyone that is unable to get to any of the reading rooms in Canberra or is unable to pay for digital online copies. Adamdaley (talk) 00:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Page numbers for citations

This article is very close to a B class article in my opinion. Is there any chance that page numbers can be added to some of the citations that just give author and year? I think that this would probably come up at a review, so it would probably be best dealt with now if we can. — AustralianRupert (talk) 05:56, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

AustralianRupert, I could do Note number 14 A, B, C, Dennis 2006 and Operation Copper since I have that book. As for the Borneo section Note number 15, I do have his book. I haven't had the chance to read it, maybe over the next few days would be a good idea as to re-read the Dennis book. The Wigzell book is also rare to get, especially on Amazon.com. Adamdaley (talk) 06:24, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok I have added the page numbers for Dennis, Thompson and Macklin, and Sue. Should have done it myself earlier - was just lazy. Don't have the Wigzell book so I can't help there. Cheers. Anotherclown (talk) 07:26, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Cheers, lads. Looks good now. Thanks for your efforts. — AustralianRupert (talk) 01:06, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Removed bio information

I have removed the following information placed in the article by an IP editor. While I assume it was placed in good faith, I do not believe that this information is appropriate for this article. For one thing, the information is not sourced appropriately (was sourced to wikipedia's biography portal), it is poorly formatted, it had some links to Veterans Affairs copyright information which makes me believe it might be a copyvio, plus I do not believe that Mr Dumesny is notable enough to be listed under a 'notable members' section. That is my opinion and I have retained the information here for safekeeping. If anyone feels the need to re-add, can we please discuss before it is done? Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:46, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I should have read the talk page more. It seems that this information was added in previously and removed for much the same reasons. As such, I do not feel that it was a good faith edit. Please see above. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm removing it altogether - second time an IP has tried to insert this info [1] as well as User:Anzac1974 and User:Anzac74: Wikipedia is not a memorial. (WP:NOT) Jasper33 (talk) 22:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Thanks. AustralianRupert (talk) 23:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Our friend has also put it here [2] but I'm not sure how to remove it as the page has ?templates as it appears here [3], or who to inform. He's clearly (and rightly) very proud of his grandfather but Wikipedia is not the place for this material. Jasper33 (talk) 23:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I've just speedy deleted the portal page Nick-D (talk) 23:36, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Cheers Nick! Jasper33 (talk) 23:40, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Nick-D - you have made an old man very sad by deleting his Bio from the Military of Australia/Selected Bio Page. He was a featured/selected bio and was shown on the main page. How can you be allowed to delete it??? How can Wikipedia allow this when they selected and featured his bio. This bio was featured in a local newspaper in Nowra to celebrate the 60th Anniversary of the ADF's actions in Borneo and is trip for the celebration is shown here: http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:6QzQPXHdEoEJ:minister.dva.gov.au/media_releases/2005/worddocs/va051.doc+Eric+Dumesny&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-a M —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.253.226 (talk) 10:48, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Please see WP:BIO for the relevant notability guideline, and I suspect that more people would have read the Nowra local newspaper and DVA publication than the Military of Australia portal where you added the biography (it was never selected by anyone for inclusion and certainly hasn't appeared on Wikipedia's main page). Nick-D (talk) 10:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I meant it appeared on the The Military of Australia Portal where Lieutenant General Sir Carl Herman Jess CB, CMG, CBE, DSO (16 February 1884 – 16 June 1948) is showing right now, who selects that? You could be a lot nicer to someone who doesn't know the ins and outs of Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by CanberraBulldog (talk • contribs) 11:16, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

The twelve biographies were written and placed there by other editors and are selected at random each time someone views the page. I just re-deleted the portal page on Mr Dumesny - please do not re-add it as I'm afraid that he doesn't meet the notability guidelines for articles which are available at WP:BIO. Nick-D (talk) 11:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

What?? So, Eric being in Z Special doesn't rate. What he did during the war can match what others did but being in Z it was never documented and publicly told. But if you think he's not notable for it then I guess there is no arguing or wasting my time as you'll just keep deleting it. Thanks mate for making Eric feel really low. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CanberraBulldog (talk • contribs) 11:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Canberra Bulldog/Anzac1974/Anzac74/various IPs - this has been discussed several times above and the reasons for the article's deletion clearly stated - your grandfather does not meet the notability guidelines at WP:BIO; those selected on the portal do fit the notability guidelines. Although your grandfather has a fine war record, so do many thousands of other men, and there is no place on Wikipedia for biographies of them all. If you want to celebrate your grandfather's life and achievements, why not make a webpage for him somewhere else? Wikipedia is not a free web host [4]. You might like to read Wikipedia:Notability (people), Wikipedia:Editing policy, Wikipedia:Edit war and the links on that page to get an idea about how Wikipedia editing works. Basically, we discuss changes and reach consensus if there are areas of difference of opinion or dispute. Please don't keep re-inserting the material about your grandfather - consensus (User:Nick-D, User:AustralianRupert, User:Grant65 and User:Jasper33) is that he does not fit the notability guidelines. Jasper33 (talk) 12:14, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks AustralianRupert for fixing up my very average contribution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CanberraBulldog (talk • contribs) 11:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi, CanberraBulldog. No worries, glad to help where I can. Most of it was important information, for which I thank you for your contribution. I just tweaked it to meet the standards. Please be careful with what you add, though, because the wording was very similar to the source website. Although it was probably an honest mistake on your part, this can be considered a copyright violation, which is to be avoided. I've reworked it, so it shouldn't be a drama now. As per above, I understand your desire to include information about your grandfather, however, Wikipedia does have rather stringent notability guidelines.

Unfortunately because the guidelines are about significant coverage in mainstream media (other sources) this often means that some people who are interesting and have done things that you and I consider 'notable', are not considered notable by Wikipedia's standards because there hasn't been adequate coverage of their lives or the events they were involved in. Sometimes it also means that people who have not done 'great' things, or who are possibly not 'respectable' become notable in a Wikipedia sense due to the amount of coverage they receive. This is unfortunate, but it is policy and as such we are bound to follow it if we wish to remain contributors to Wikipedia. My own grandfather served in one of the unit's whose article I contributed to on Wikipedia, however, I did not include his biographical information because while I believe he is a notable individual (five years war service is notable to me, but there are thousands like him), he does not meet the guidelines.

Having said all of this, a passing mention of your grandfather might be possible, as for example other members of the unit are mentioned in the article. I add a caveat to this, however, that it would have to be sourced to a reliable source and be in an appropriate context. For example, is your grandfather mentioned in any of the sources discussing the Borneo operations? If so, perhaps if the Borneo operations section in the article were to be expanded to add more details, your grandfather could be added in passing if appropriate, as per other sections (e.g. the way in which members of the unit have been mentioned in say the Operation Rimau section). Note these men themselves are not 'notable' by Wikipedia standards to have their own article, but their involvement in the individual action described in the article is notable enough for their name to be included. This does not, however, mean that full biographical information should be included.

Hopefully this helps a little. I am happy to try to help where I can, but you need to please take into consideration what the others have said above. — AustralianRupert (talk) 12:48, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Vulcan Island

In "Operation Scorpion", is states:

"and then retreat to Vulcan Island, where they would hide out until they could safely rendezvous with the submarine."

If you search for "Vulcan Island", it is near Sicily. Months ago I had put "Citation Needed" next to it and took out the valid link since it would be near impossible to get that far since Australia would have been closer to head too. I feel there needs to be some clarification for the retreat. Adamdaley (talk) 02:00, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Nobody knows about this? There should be someone that knows. Adamdaley (talk) 08:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, beyond my ken. — AustralianRupert (talk) 23:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Judging from the article's text, an island near Rabaul, and presumably has something to do with the volcano of the same name which sits next to the town. I imagine that the island is too obscure to have its own article on Wikipedia and is likely known by its native name now. Nick-D (talk) 11:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Nick-D. I'm going to try and reword a few words and incorporate the Vulcan link into it, while I could never understand why it had the valid link as I said before. Adamdaley (talk) 15:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The operational plan for SCORPION states that one of the "hide-outs" (lying up positions) close to Rabaul was near "Vulcan Crater". I have not gotten to SCORPION yet so hopefully that tidbit is of use to someone. Specopsaust (talk) 05:03, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I have access to detailed WWII mapping of the area around Rabaul and there is no such island as Vulcan Island. As I posted above, Vulcan Crater was the proposed hide-out location for the SCORPION party.Specopsaust (talk) 10:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Interesting source on Z Special Unit in Borneo (Operation Semut)

PDF of Voices from Borneo: The Japanese War by Major Jim Truscott et al. here [5]. Jasper33 (talk) 13:48, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Ronald McKie

Is this Ronald McKie the same Ronald McKie that did The Heroes: They Were Men of Z Force. Their Target–Singapore. Angus & Robertson? If it is then maybe we could link the McKie page to his name on here. Adamdaley (talk) 08:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• I'm still waiting for someone to know if Ronald McKie who wrote the book about Z Special Unit is the same as this one Ronald McKie??? Adamdaley (talk) 05:38, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Hello Adam. I did a quick check on World Cat [6] and it appears to be the same bloke. As such I have wikilinked him in the references section. Is that what you were meaning? Anotherclown (talk) 08:46, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

• Yes. To Wikipedia link him at the bottom of the article of Z Special Unit. Thanks. Adamdaley (talk) 09:02, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Z Special Unit category?

Now we have a few biographies of members of Z Special Unit (Ivan Lyon, Samuel Warren Carey, Tom Harrisson, Jack Wong Sue, Roland Griffiths-Marsh and probably others I haven't found, plus at least one more that I intend to make (Major G. S. (Toby) Carter)), how about a category for them? Any ideas what it should be called? 'Members of Z Special Unit'? Jasper33 (talk) 22:55, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

"Z Special Unit personnel" perhaps? — AustralianRupert (talk) 05:55, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Works for me. Anotherclown (talk) 10:49, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Category:Z Special Unit personnel it is. Not sure how to categorise the category: I'll leave that to others more knowledgable. Jasper33 (talk) 12:39, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Can we add Eric and others I know to this or do they have to have their own published wikipedia page to make the grade? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.37.88 (talk) 20:16, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Categories are simply a way of sorting articles relating to similar topics. They are not lists in themselves and as such only include links to other articles that currently exist. As a result, the answer in this case I feel would unfortunately be no, unless the person has an article they probably shouldn't be added to the category. — AustralianRupert (talk) 21:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I thought that after I wrote the question - I agree. Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by CanberraBulldog (talk • contribs) 23:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Help please

I've made a user page article on Major G. S. Carter here, but have a problem. A lot of internet sources say he was in the Royal Australian Engineers; in his own account he mentions being in the British Army and then Z Special Unit. I'm not sure how to go about interrogating the various military records online to find out about his service. Can anyone help please? A lot of accounts mistakenly say he was an oilfield engineer rather than a surveyor; I wonder if this might have then got conflated into him serving with the RAE? Jasper33 (talk) 16:47, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I found this at the WW2 Nominal Roll site: [7]. It provides different service numbers to the one quoted on the AWM Honours and Awards entry, which is perplexing, but mentions that his posting on discharge was the "Engineer Training Centre". — AustralianRupert (talk) 03:39, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The London Gazette entry does not provide any more useful information either, but here it is for you anyway. [8]. — AustralianRupert (talk) 03:46, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Carter's army personnel file in the National Archives can be found here: [9]. Sometimes you can view then online, however, not all of them are up yet (probably never will be). You can, however, I believe request a copy by pressing the "Request Copy" button. That might help clear things up, if you are willing to go that extra mile. I hope this helps in some way. Cheers. — AustralianRupert (talk) 03:51, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

If the details haven't been digitalised yet, you need to pay the NAA to do this; they charge about $20 for the service. Nick-D (talk) 05:31, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks chaps! The nominal roll shows his date of discharge as 18 Jan 1945, before his Z Special Unit Service. Is this to do with the secrecy of Z Special Unit, with him taking on another service number for it, I wonder? Jasper33 (talk) 08:36, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Not sure, sorry. Sometimes service records are somewhat less than accurate, so it could just be an error. — AustralianRupert (talk) 08:13, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm copying this over to the G. S. Carter talkpage. Jasper33 (talk) 08:08, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

12 Jan 2010 Stats spike

Hi, I have looked around but am not 100% sure why there was a huge viewing (2.8k) of this page on the 12/1/2010 - would love to know why, very interested to know what Z Special did on that date. Can anyone help? Thanks in advance. Sorry to bug you fellas again, I have a picture of Z Special Unit's banner from ANZAC Day march 2008, just wondering how you include pics and where do you think the best place to insert it? I was thinking the memorial section. Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by CanberraBulldog (talk • contribs) 05:28, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi, CanberraBulldog. A good guide to uploading images can be found here: Wikipedia:Uploading images. This will give you a step by step. Not sure about the stats spike. It could be that there was a Did You Know article that appeared on the main page, which had a link through to this one. — AustralianRupert (talk) 22:02, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I think I know the answer - an article I created (G. S. Carter) was featured in the Did You Know section on the main page that day and I had linked to Z Special Unit in the hook. Another article of mine (on F. G. L. Chester) is scheduled to be in DYK on 26 Jan 6pm UTC/27 Jan 5am Sydney [10] and I have linked to Z Special Unit in that too so it'll be interesting to see if we get another spike. Jasper33 (talk) 08:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

CanberraBulldog, the Z banner you're talking about is not the insignia of SRD / Z Special Unit. It's the banner of the Z Special Unit Association, a post-war Veteran's association. SRD/Z did not have any official insignia during the war. It sounds to me like you've had a few dealings with the Association, so maybe it'd be worth putting up a page on the various Z/M Special Unit Associations? I can help out if you like. I've got access to all the NSW Association's newsletters from the late 1950s to present. Also, if you want to contact me through the Special Operations Australia website, I'd love to do a profile page on your grandfather - not too many SRD Snake Boat crewies have their stories told.

Re: the spike in interest... Lawrie Black OAM, a well-known SRD Operative passed away in December. His passing received quite a bit of print media coverage. Specopsaust (talk) 09:52, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

HI, yes it is their Association banner, I have marched with them since 2003. I will contact you about Eric, he has some amazing stories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CanberraBulldog (talk • contribs) 04:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC) Hi again, is this correct weblink: http://www.ozatwar.com/sigint/soa.htm ? Eric was a stoker on the Tiger Snake, he was based out of Ashmore Reef - he was the champion turtle rider. I'll gather up all the info and stories I have and get them to you.

It would seem the spike is related to DYK Z Special Unit links: see [11] with spikes on the two days my Z Special Unit linked DYKs were up on the main page. I always click on links in the DYK hooks that interest me; I assume that other readers do too. I wonder how much traffic comes from outside Wikipedia, from Google links etc - the spikes would suggest the majority comes from within. But it's certainly a useful way to generate interest in your pet projects. Jasper33 (talk) 16:46, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

CanberraBulldog, the link you gave was to Peter Dunn's Oz@War, the correct URL for the Special Operations Australia website is http://www.specialoperationsaustralia.com . Feel free to contact me by email.

Jasper, what is DYK?

Cheers, Craig Specopsaust (talk) 04:14, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Craig - it's the "Did You Know" section on the Wikipedia main page, available for newly-created or expanded articles. Hooks are up for about eight hours on the main page, so can reach a massive potential readership. More info here. Cheers Jasper33 (talk) 08:01, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Jasper. Nice tip - much appreciated. Specopsaust (talk) 11:39, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Project Opossum

An article has been published by Sydney Morning Herald concerning Project Opossum, the island of "Ternate" and the "Sultan". Here is the article: http://www.smh.com.au/world/the-untold-story-how-z-force-saved-the-sultan-20100423-tj7q.html. Adamdaley (talk) 07:42, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Muschu Island

As I explained to User:Nick-D, I have intentions of creating a page for Muschu Island. About the history and culture on the Island ... especially adding Z Special Unit and the Japanese side as well under World War II heading for the Island. Since then, we can research what the island has to offer now. I have approached a participant from the Pupua New Guinea WikiProject which I have yet to hear no response from. It would be nice if this page for Muschu Island can also be part of New Guinea/PNG WikiProject as well as the Military side of it. Feedback would be appreciated. Adamdaley (talk) 03:31, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi all, just to add to this - I'm on the ZSU email list and I received this email this week, thought I'd share:

'I am sending you all a link to a website The Guns of Muschu by the author of a book of the same name, Don Dennis. Don’s uncle, Mick Dennis was the sole survivor of Operation COPPER in 1945.

In July this year a team led by Jim Bourke together with Peter Aylett, both members of OPERATION AUSSIES HOME INC.(OAH) and Donald Gubbay will embark on a non-dig expedition to the Island of KAIRIRU north of WEWAK. This team has uncovered very strong documentary evidence regarding the capture, execution and burial on KAIRIRU Island of two or three Z men, missing believed KIA in April 1945.

It is timely that members of this distribution list acquaint themselves with the myriad information on Don Dennis’s website as members will soon be receiving updates of this expedition. Please send any messages of support to this team through me and I will pass them on for you.

Click on the following Link to Don Dennis’s The Guns of Muschu website: http://www.gunsofmuschu.com/home.html

On Don’s first page of his website click on the link “View our Latest MIA Report” for the updated information on the expedition.

Click on the following Link to Jim Bourke’s MIA organisation website, which is somewhat out of date: http://austmia.com/ '

Hope this is helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CanberraBulldog (talk • contribs) 23:15, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

In reply to CanberraBulldog's comment. If these "survivors" of Z Special Unit, did make it to Kairiru Island maybe we could do another page about Kairiru Island? We would need to do more than just source Don Dennis's information, possibly look into the National Archives of Australia for more information. Adamdaley (talk) 03:49, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Z Special Unit for Did you know?

Hi, I was just wondering what people thought of nominating this for the Did you know page?CanberraBulldog (talk) 09:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid that it's not eligible - DYK articles need to be either no more than five days old or to have been expanded by five times their original length in the last five days. The criteria are explained at Wikipedia:Did you know#DYK rules. There's lots of scope to generate DYKs by starting articles on notable Z Special Unit operations though (War by Stealth: Australians and the Allied Intelligence Bureau 1942–1945 provides lots of detail on these and is a very reliable source). Nick-D (talk) 09:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

2010 Z Special Reunion: Fraser Island

Between August 13 - 15, 2010, there was a Z Special Unit reunion. The following links is some information and it probably could have a sentence or two in the "Legacy" section.

• ABC News Retrieved: March 10, 2011.
• Eastern Regional Libraries Retrieved: March 10, 2011.

Just a thought it might be a little useful to the Z Special article on Wikipedia. Adamdaley (talk) 11:39, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

File:Andrew Huston.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Andrew Huston.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Andrew Huston.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 21:28, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Origin of the naming Z Special Unit?

Hi, does anyone know where the name Z Special Unit came from? Is it named after Z Beach at Gallipoli

Cheers CanberraBulldog (talk) 09:55, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Gday. Powell (1996) War by Stealth, pp 20-21 indicates that the name was used a cover stating: "The need for an ISD recruit cover unit quickly became apparent. Both problems were solved in June 1942. Blamey approved a new training site, 'Z Experimental Station' near Cairns, and Sturdee ordered the creation of a special ISD holding unit which had no war establishment or equipment table and possessed carte blanche to draw on army odinance. This gave Mott much of the operational freedom and secrecy that he wanted, yet, oddly, this ISD covering body recieved the melodramatic name 'Z Special Unit'. Mott never claimed responsibility for the name. Neither has anyone else." Does this help? Anotherclown (talk) 10:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

New book

Gday, I just moved this info from the article (added by a new user - Zedgar):

"A new eBook has been published (2013) recounting the secret mission of New Zealander Sergeant Frank Wigzell with Semut I. Entitled Blood Brotherz it is available from www.Lulu.com. (Search 'Z-Special Unit' or 'Alexander Frances Wigzell')"

It might be a useful source. Anotherclown (talk) 08:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

As Lulu.com is a self publishing outfit, it probably would not qualify as a reliable source. Nick-D (talk) 10:18, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you are probably right. I probably should have checked. All the best. Anotherclown (talk) 10:20, 8 September 2013 (UTC)