Talk:Yitzhak Rabin/Archive 1

Archive 1

NPOV

Last paragraph is doubtful. Someone please NPOV it. --Cema 08:08 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)

Length

All I can say about this article is that it is far too short. Unfortunately I am not qualified to really write anything longer without substantial research. There are many people out there who are qualified however. The Six-day war in particular was an event of far reaching consequence in which Rabin played a pivitol role. The Oslo process was also very significant historically. Rabin is a major historical figure and his Wikipedia page should reflect this. --Wtmgeo 00:12, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

sure this article could be longer now it's as long as Yigal Amir article!!

I agree, the article is painfully short. Worthy extensions: more on the assasination, it's immediate influence on Israeli society and politics, as well as long lasting effects on the peace process.

I think the title of the square where the assassination occurred was (before its renaming to Rabin square after the assassination) Kings of Israel Square, but I'm unsure. --Penta 21:13, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The bone-breaking quote is taken out of context. This was during the first intifada, the first wave of violence against Israeli's by Palestinians in the occupied territories. Palestinian kids would throw rocks at Israeli soldiers and civilians, Rabin said something like "If you throw rocks, we'll break your arm". That is an important context.

Yigal Amir quotes

Words from David Rutstein. I actually know the Amir family. Geula Amir, Yigal's mom really well. As well as Barry Chamish really well. I am the one who built www.BarryChamish.com and www.YigalAmir.com. In fact, all email from both sites go to me. Email from Barry's site gets forwarded to Barry as well.

The first month of Yigal Amir's arrest, Yigal denied doing the murder. After some friendly persuasion he was all into blaming the Rabbis and admitting everything. I am not sure what was discussed, money and threats. But that is what happened. Yigal will never show remorse because he did not do the murder. The evidence is really overwhelming. The video of the murder is now online and even in that video you can see weird things happenning. Look at the back passenger door of the limo close from the inside. There was a fourth person in that limo. Israeli TV showed the 10 minute video of the murder, "the Kempler video", for one week in 1996, and has not shown the video since. In fact Yigal played an exaggerated non-defense in which he seemed to want to get convicted. This exagerated desire to be convicted seems weird and will cause Yigal eventually to be freed because anybody who studies the case realizes that Yigal shot blanks. End of comment by David Rutstein.

The quote was obviously added to put Rabin in a negative light - see the site that is linked to it, it is a propaganda site. Besides, there is no point in leaving it here since its merely a description of Ben Gurion's actions and gives no insight on Rabin's opinions or ideas. I'm replacing it with a more appropriate qoute. --Yunis 21:44, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Kempler video

What about that video link the owner of yigalamir.com (I don't understand a word from the site, but some here say it's propaganda?) keeps adding to various Wikipedias? Can it be considered linkspam or is it worth keeping? (And even if it's worth, it does look like an illegally published TV capture which Wikipedia shouldn't link to, doesn't it?) --Glimz 23:21, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Hello Glimz, at the Dutch Wikipedia we do not connect to media unless it is located at the site of the copyright owner. But we also do not claim "fair use" for pictures... What is the policy here with respect to media-files? The movie is an interesting document which could be linked under the murder of Yitzhak Rabin. The site however should only be linked from its conspiracy equivalent. gidonb 03:21, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

The policy/practice throughout Wikipedias (AFAIK) is roughly "don't link to illegal archives". Requiring the site to be the copyright owner is too restrictive as it won't allow linking to collections/aggregations of (usually copyrighted) open content by various authors (Wikipedia is one itself, by the way, as are most open content/source projects). --Glimz 05:07, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Glimz, thank you. It was also my impression that en.wikipedia is somewhat more flexible than nl.wikipedia in copyrights matters. This is why I did not delete all links to the Kempler video here. I did delete them at the Dutch Wikipedia however. At he.wikipedia the video also does not get linked, I think more because of the extremely bad taste of blaming a minister and a security service for murdering the prime-minister. Regards, gidonb 10:25, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

You can now go to the page in wiki english Kempler video page which explains scene by scene exactly what happened in the Kempler video... There were forces that tried to delete the page but those evil forces did not succeed--Kempler video 05:07, Aug 26, 2005 (UTC)

No more running for Knesset, now walking around Israel, especially Jerusalem with a sandwich sign that reads "the killers are free" "kempler video" "10 minutes" "there is a fourth passenger in the limosine" "www.yitzhakrabin.co.il" I am recruiting more volunteers.. It should be international news eventually Kempler video --Kempler video 05:07, Aug 28, 2005 (UTC)

POV pushing

Is there any reasonable explanation why Gidonb and Jayjg would be so serious in deleting references to the Kempler video, now they are replacing the 10 minute video with a 10 second clip from CNN. --Kempler video 010:07, Aug 29, 2005 (UTC0

Sorry if your commercial interests were hurt, but if you want to push your dot coms please buy banners elsewhere. Even here there are no free lunches. Links to conspiracy sites which include hate speech towards Nobel Prize laureates and many others should only be made from the special conspiracy pages, if at all. Sorry for any inconvenience. gidonb 07:52, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

What does hate speach have to do with replacing the 7 1/2 minute Kempler video with a 10 second clip --Kempler video 010:07, Aug 29, 2005

Hey Gidon and Jayjg, good news, this story is being picked up by international media in the very near future. Shimon Peres called me a "sycko" "that should be institutionalized" so I filed a $50,000 slander lawsuit against Shimon. As well I put big headlines on all my sites that say "Shimon Peres ordered the murder of Yitzhak Rabin". these sites include yitzhakrabin.co.il, yigalamir.com, shimonperes.net, arielsharon.co.il and barrychamish.com (english) Hey guys you have to appreciate my sense of humor. If what I am claiming is false Shimon will sue me and I will look stupid and loose money. But if what I am saying is true.... oy va voy....G and J.. believe me, I am not happy to be correct.. but the preponderance of evidence is really overwhelming...--Kempler videoOctober 5

References

Why do we have a further reading section (which, by the way, should be above external links according to convention) but no references? Can we confirm that the book(s) in the further reading list were used as sources and thus create a references section like we ought to? Johnleemk | Talk 11:24, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Photo

We need a higher resolution picture. 70.29.159.91 17:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Concur. I have no clue where to look, but this photo is awful. He was a general and statesman, not a splotchy gnome. Wally 08:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The assasins remarks

I have heard that the first words of the assasin after he was interviewed was "Did the c_ _t die?" I am not sure if it was true, so I didn't add it.

F-15s?

"Rabin resigned from office after two crises hit him: the arrival of four F-15 jets on Shabbat led to the breaking up of his coalition..."

Can someone elaborate on this? I have no idea what this means or why it is significant.

Omehegan 16:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The traditional and religious parties, who inticipated Rabin's coalition where angry that the jets came on that day, which is important for the Jewish people. for more information, look for the Judaism article.

Can we add IPConflict template?

There is a new template for the Israel-Palestinian conflict -- see Template:Israel-Palestinian_Conflict. I'm not adding it to everyone who is involved with the conflict, since the template is large, but I am adding it to key figures. I have added it to Arafat and Abbas. I believe that adding it to Rabin's biography is also appropriate. Thoughts? --Deodar 17:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

support. Amoruso 03:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

name

Why not Izaac? Izhac is Hebrew for that name.

I KNOW ISAA RABIN WAS ASSASSINATED FOR THE REASON OF PEACE, THE RIGHT WING OF ISRAELI EXXAGRATED HIS MISSION OF PEACE ,RABIN IS WRONG DOERS ,THE ARABS TERRORIST GUIDED THE SECOND PROBAGANDA AGIANEST RABIN , WHEN THEY DO MORE SUICIDE ATTACK IN TELAVIVE, RABIN WAS ALONE THE MOMENT OF HIS SHOOTING , HE ONLY NOT BRAVE OF SOLDIER BUT ALSE FATHER OF PEACE , DEVIL SEND THE ONE WHO KILL RABIN

POV - "Great man of peace"

There is phrase "After the death, Rabin was turned into a national symbol, especially for the Israeli Left as Israel's great man of peace, despite his military career." in which words "great man of peace" seems to be completely POV. I think first the term "man of peace" is controversial and unencyclopedic, not talking about the person being "great" in this controversial role. I changed it twice to more neutral wording, but it was reverted by Nupractor. I think there is no place for such statement, but if you have better wording - you are welcome. My version was "After the death, Rabin was turned into a national symbol, especially for the Israeli Left.", but again, you are welcome to find a better wording. Zigmar 18:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

That pharse expains the way he is widely viewed by the Israeli public (and the government), I don't understand what's the problem. Nupractor 07:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The fact that many people think this (which, BTW, is also POV) does not make it more encyclopedic. It either need to be said in appropriate context (i.e. "Israely left often refer him as great man of peace despite... bla bla") or removed completely in my opinion. In current form it looks like statement (which is ridiculous for encyclopedic statement) rather than a peoples opinion. --Zigmar 13:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the wording is somewhat problematic, however I disagree that there is no room for citing public opinion, as long as it is presented as such and not as some sort of ‘truth’. How about this phrase:

After his assassination, Rabin was turned into a national symbol and became to embody the Israeli peace camp ethos, despite his military career and hawkish political history Amirig 23:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Your version seems good enough to me. Nupractor 15:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me either. --Zigmar 18:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The above is a biased poltical view. Israeli Jews have sharply differing views about Yitzchak Rabin. The Israeli far left turned him into an icon. The Israeli right views him very differently, in part due to him being in command in 1948 to kill many Jews on the Altalena and those who jumped in the sea by Tel Aviv's shore and because of gross military failures, including multiple collapses under conditions of stress as in key battle during the Independence War and at critical initial stage of the Six Day War (Ref. Dr. Uri Milstein's book on Yitzchak Rabin). A considerable percentage of Israeli public apparently questions the official report about Rabin's assassination and many give credence to the hypothesis that Rabin wanted to back out of the Oslo accord, which may have sealed his fate. Unfortunately Israeli politicians lost credibility in recent times, with two of its last Presidents and four if its last Prime Ministers under police investigation for corruption and other alleged crimes. Ironically, also the police at the highest level was recently under investigation. (Fortunately corruption in Israeli government is at a much lower level than in Gaza and the West Bank, but that is not much of a comparison.) Consequently any report issued by the Israeli government on a controversial issue, such as Rabin's assassination, is viewed by many Israelis as politically controlled and not taken seriously. Although there are considerable doubts about Rabin's final perspectives about possibility of any form of peace with Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank, there is probably general agreement that Rabin had much higher integrity than the latest crop of Israeli leaders. The Rabin article is highly one sided and needs tobe balanced with facts rather than accolades.Emesz 07:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

You may be right about the article not being balanced (in fact it is quite poor on many issues). However this does not contradict the fact that after his death Rabin was elevated in public discourse (to the dismay of some) as a national hero, and was appropriated by the Israeli peace camp as its symbol (and not merely by the ‘far left’ as you argue). The above sentence refers to that, without arguing whether or not he is in fact a ‘man of peace’. As for the other issues you raise: most of them are highly controversial, and probably describe the views of a very small, albeit vocal, minority. Amirig 07:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is generally written with a pro-left POV, as Rabin is looked down upon by many people, and this fact was not recognised through this article, inevitably making it biased. --Danisand 17:55, 10 November 2013 (PST) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.37.202.23 (talk)

name in arabic

I noticed that Humus Sapiens has removed the Arabic that some unidentified user added, as if there is no need for Rabin's name in Arabic. As I said on the page for Shimon Peres, I think that it should appear, as Rabin was the prime minister of Israel, and that includes its Arab citizens. Not to mention the fact that Arabic is indeed an official language, and appears on all street signs in Israel.--Gilabrand 10:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Not an assassinated head of state

Two editors now have added this article to Category:Assassinated heads of state in the past few days. The Israeli prime minister is not the head of state of Israel. The President of Israel is the head of state. Rabin was not the president of Israel. He clearly does not fit the definition for the category and the description there clearly states that non-heads of state like prime ministers are not to be added there. Snocrates 11:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

"first native born"

According to Yigal Allon he was born in Kfar Tavor, making him the first native-born Prime Minister and Yitzhak Rabin the first elected native-born Prime Minister. I didn't want to edit the article in case there is something weird like Prime Ministers have to be elected in Israel. Evil Monkey - Hello 08:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Human

My opinion is that Rabin was at first human and understood that Israeli and Arabs have been chosen to live together, despise of their differences. This was and is the problem of all communities. There is little to make us apart and more to bind us together. --Filippos2 (talk) 05:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada As you can see my correction is justified as the killings ended with signing the peace agreement. Unfortunately Peres was afraid to end like Rabin and did not continue his peace politic. --Schwarzschachtel (talk) 12:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The article didn't say the killings were a part of the First Intifada, but they did continue. See, for example, Dizengoff Center suicide bombing. -- Nudve (talk) 13:46, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but this was after Rabin. It was the revenge for Peres order to bomb away Ayash the engineer a few months ago, like I said. The fact is that Rabins peace agreement stopped the intifada and the killings. --Schwarzschachtel (talk) 15:52, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

That's your opinion. The fact is that some people blamed it on Rabin. -- Nudve (talk) 16:10, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

How can they do blame a dead person for the outcome of the wrongdoing of his successor? Not Rabin but Peres ordered the resuming of targeted killing. Ayyash was not the victim of Rabin but of Peres. So the blaming is misleading and therefore this should be mentioned in the article or the blamings should be removed from the article. --Schwarzschachtel (talk) 20:50, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Pioneers? POV?

The article refers to Rabin's parents as "two pioneers of the Third Aliyah." Why is the word pioneers used? That seems to suggest a certain point of view. Would the words immigrants or settlers be better? I certainly do not see pioneers as neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.185.141 (talk) 17:30, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

"In 1917 he went to Palestine"

This article seems to state he went there 5 years before he was born? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.167.190.35 (talk) 14:28, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

"he" refers to Nehemiah Rabin, Yitzhak's father. I've slightly reworded the paragraph to be less ambiguous. Rami R 16:58, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Censorship of Rabin's tainted war record

Amazing that there is frequent erasure of

a. Rabin commanding the Altalena ship attack and killing of Jews off the Tel Aviv shore in 1948

b. questionable "acts of heroism" in the 1948 War of Independence

c. mental collapse and "disappearance" at a critical time of the Six Day War Emesz 4 Dec 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emesz (talk • contribs) 16:14, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

That Rabin's flight from the field of battle at Shaar Haggai / Latrun , as well his total failure as "military commander" in the battles for the road to Jerusalem will never ever appear in the Wikipedia entry "Yitzhak Rabin" is one of many proofs that Wikipedia is "progressive" agenda driven and not, encyclopedic. (i.e. Rabin is a God of the "progressive" community due to his Oslo Accords - so no one is allowed to point out that his "military" history is one of repeated deadly failures combined with leeching onto the real sacrifices and successes of OTHERS in the Israeli Army - and not his own doing).68.129.213.5 (talk) 04:10, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

This clearly makes you very mad. You got the theocracy you wanted. But your still mad about him being. A military commander for some reason? Goddamn your national religious idolatry, I ill celebrate when God finally throws us out!2601:140:8900:61D0:919E:FC0C:7C68:35F8 (talk) 15:47, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Signature

Is Rabin's signature displayed in the infobox (File:Yitzhak Rabin signature.svg) accurate? It is a composite of signatures taken from [1] and [2] (although the "b" is notably different in each case). Did Rabin actually sign in the way shown in the composite image(with Hebrew above English/Roman transliteration)? The latter source shows both versions together but in reverse order. The signature shown on Wikipedia should reflect his signature as in actual use, not a composite put together by an editor from multiple sources. —sroc (talk) 05:03, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Key political positions

Hello,

I think there should be a short summary of Rabin's key political positions, esp. in regard to the so-called "Israeli-palestinian conflict" and its - at the time envisioned - solution. -- Alexey Topol (talk) 08:53, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Married?

"Rabin married Leah Rabin (born Schlossberg). Don't we say he married Leah Schlossberg? Didn't she BECOME Leah Rabin? Otherwise it looks like he married his sister or something!

IceDragon64 (talk) 23:06, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Just wondering how long you've been stuck down in that yeshuva basement? Have you tried reading any book ever outside of religious studies? Might help.2601:140:8900:61D0:919E:FC0C:7C68:35F8 (talk) 15:50, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

External link to interview on nuclear policy?

Would an interview with Yitzhak Rabin from 1987 be useful here as an external link? Focus of conversation is nuclear weapons policy. http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_8B03FE2A373F40DC84C48389ECC601CB (I helped with the site, so it would be conflict of interest for me to just add it.) Mccallucc (talk) 17:04, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Claim that Rabin fired Rockets

@User:186.137.142.153: Is Global Security a reliable source? I don't see references within the source. Also, why making such claim without further research? --George Ho (talk) 07:30, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Excuse me, I don't understand your complain. Are you questioning the fact that Hezbollah fired rockets at Israel during the 1993 conflict? (Hezbollah fired rockets, not Rabin) Even a critical report by Amnesty provides a detailed description of Hizbullah rocket attacks and Israeli airstrikes. And what makes you think that an important event like a war doesn't deserve to be mentioned inside an article about the Prime Minister involved in such a large-scale military operation?--186.138.132.5 (talk) 09:46, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

There are rules about verifying the statements that you made. We must be careful about using sources, like Amnesty. Here are WP:verifiability and WP:Identifying reliable sources, both of which discuss sources. Also, WP:neutral point of view tells us to balance the content. By the way, the page is protected, so you can't edit the article further. George Ho (talk) 10:11, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

You don't like Amnesty? Pick a different source. Write it the way you please, but the 1993 Lebanon conflict must be mentioned in the biography of Rabin, even if it's one line. It's an important event, the first of his prime ministership.--186.138.97.17 (talk) 10:38, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

I can't; I don't have user rights to edit this page while protected like that. I had them relinquished per request. Amnesty Intl. ain't a bad source, but I might consider it primary. George Ho (talk) 11:18, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 February 2017

I am currently an autoconfirmed editor as I gave up my rights to edit ECP pages for various reasons. Therefore, I ask someone here to add {{unreliable source}} near the added content by IP, which was discussed in #Claim that Rabin fired Rockets. Global Security was used to verify the information; I question the reliability of the source. George Ho (talk) 09:42, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

If you are looking for the content, it's at Yitzhak Rabin#Second term as Prime Minister. George Ho (talk) 09:43, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

 Done – claim and source removed – source suspicious as it tried to enter malicious content to my computer.  Paine Ellsworth  ^u/c 15:52, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

On the other hand, he was the prime minister at the time, so there is no doubt that what the removed text stated is precisely what happened. This is a case where sticking to the rules leads to undesirable results, and WP:IAR is best applied. Debresser (talk) 17:56, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

@Debresser: To which rule do you refer? WP:V or WP:RS or what else? One of its talk pages is a more suitable venue to question either rule. George Ho (talk) 08:35, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

This talkpage is the right place to discuss this, because I am not questioning the rule itself, just the implementation in this specific case. WP:V, WP:RS, both or others, whatever, in this case the result is not desirable, nl. the removal of information which is obviously true, just because the fact that Rabin was involved as prime minister is too obvious to be stressed by sources. Debresser (talk) 15:13, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't mind the return of the text; however, I question if this is the correct Wikipedia in which to use a "reliable source" that is in the Hebrew script? Maybe it doesn't need a source at all, unless George Ho or someone else is actually challenging the claim itself.  Paine Ellsworth  - put'r there – 20:17, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

@Debresser and Paine Ellsworth: I appreciate your concerns about the removal. However, the removed material can be challenged because... the nature of the allegations is potentially controversial. Also, topics related to Palestinian-Israeli disputes have been under scrutiny, especially by ArbCom. We must be careful about the content of this biography. Reading WP:MINREF, actions by the PM are met with controversy. But... if the removed content is not at all challenging, I don't mind the reinserting. Otherwise, as said before, we must be cautious and... not add anything else too controversial without reliable sources, even when this PM himself is deceased. George Ho (talk) 22:18, 12 February 2017 (UTC); edited. 22:27, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

The statement is so basic, I fail to see how it can be challenged. Almost anything can be challenged to some degree, but this was undue worry about a non-issue ,IMHO. Debresser (talk) 23:28, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Ah... (apparently, I overlooked) El C reinserted the content (and some others) with more reliable source, so let's call this resolved then. Nevertheless, firing "rockets" is more than a basic statement, but (with a reliable source) let's put the matter into rest then. George Ho (talk) 23:37, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Edit request: 5th Prime Minister of Israel

Per the comment on Talk:Benjamin Netanyahu, please amend the infobox so that it describes Rabin as the 5th Prime Minister (not the 6th and 11th). This will make it consistent with Wikipedia practice for other parliamentary democracies (e.g. Canada, Australia, India, Italy) whereby the number assigned to a prime minister reflects the fact that the subject is the Nth different individual to hold the office. I am requesting similar edits to Netanyahu and Ben-Gurion to ensure consistency.JayZed (talk) 12:38, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Edit request: make Histadrut a link to the Wikipedia article

This is mentioned under Second term as Prime Minister/Economic and Social Reforms A.T.S. in Texas (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:47, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Done--Quisqualis (talk) 23:04, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 November 2017

2602:306:3265:AC30:98C7:DCEC:C7EE:1DD5 (talk) 00:30, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

hhhhggyyyf

Not done: Not a request. ToThAc (talk) 15:20, 3 November 2017 (UTC)