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Talk:Yakovlev MC-21/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Name of aircraft

The name of the aircraft is simply the MS-21. It isn't United Aircraft MS-21. United Aircraft Corporation is simply a holding company which holds stakes in various design bureaus and manufacturers, and the aircraft are still developed under their Sukhoi, Tupolev, Ilyushin, whatever, monickers. It is probable if the project should go ahead the name will be changed, much like the Russian Regional Jet, now known as the Sukhoi Superjet. --Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 10:12, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Financing, State aid

It is IMPORTANT to write something about the state aid and financing in general. It is NOT FORBIDDEN or UNFAIR, especially Boeing or Airbus receive receive state aid. But Irkut IMHO more, public influence must mentioned. See for example Dmitry Rogozin. 77.186.121.78 (talk) 22:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree on your statement, it is important to know who are the stakeholders of the irkut programm, like EADS wich owns the Airbus company has a 10% stake in irkut. Also the government who finances the company. This is also why you see the influences on airlines who (as i see it) are forced to buy aircrafts of the irkut (or sukhoi) programme. Njirk (talk) 23:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Sukhoi_Superjet_100#Vote_on_flag_removal

This voting about flags and country info in orders might concern even this article. Tagremover (talk) 08:02, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Hyperlinked text is joined to text following it in just the lede (not subsequent sections) on Windows Chrome, Firefox and IE. Copy-pasting the text gives 

The Irkut MC-21is a twin-engineshort- to mid-range Russianjet airlinerwith a capacity of 150-212 passengers. The MC-21 is being developed and to be produced by Irkutand Yakovlev Design Bureauof the United Aircraft Corporation(UAC) group.[6]It was formerly known in English as MS-21; Russian: МС‑21 "Магистральный Самолёт 21 века" – "Magistralny Samolyot 21 veka" – "Airliner of the 21st Century". The design is based on the never-realized, twin-engine Yakovlev Yak-242 as a development of the three-engine Yakovlev Yak-42. According to a recent statement made by Russian deputy premier Dmitry Rogozin, the name of the MC-21 serial production aircraft will again be Yak-242.[7][8]Intended to replace the Tupolev Tu-154and older Tupolev Tu-204/214sin service,[9]the MC-21 certification and delivery was initially planned by 2016,[10]but later delayed to the end of 2018.[11][12]

The wikitext looks fine. Any ideas? cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 12:21, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Fixed now. Interesting that not closing an infobox caused the spaces to be removed... cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 12:40, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Article sounds like an ad

The tone of this article sounds too much like an ad in my opinion. Specifically the development and design sections make a lot of ad-like comparisons to Boeing and Airbus and sound like they were copied from advertising literature i.e. "The plane's development is oriented to meeting customers’ requirements", etc. Maybe as we know more about it we can make it more informational and less like an ad.Not your average hamster (talk) 01:09, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

I have tweaked the design section to actually talk about the design and removed the guff. MilborneOne (talk) 08:23, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Wrong lemma

The Lemma is "MC-" but this is wrong, because the MC here are cyrillic letters. МС-21 means „Магистральный самолёт 21 века“, which can be transcribed as Magistralny samoljot 21 weka. Therefore, the correct lemma would be Irkut MS-21. I'll move it to the right lemma. --Sputniktilt (talk) 14:26, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

The manufacturer specifically requested that MC-21 be used in English, and that is what most English language sources now use. I've reverted your move on that basis. - BilCat (talk) 14:35, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
Wrong is wrong, the "C" here is a cyrillic "S". And I'm not sure that your argument is a very solid one: since when, we consider manufacturer's requests? But ok, as I edit very few on WP:en, I'll leave that up to you. Best, --Sputniktilt (talk) 15:47, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
We consider the manufacturer's requests, but that's not the only or even the primary factor. The important factor is what is used in the majority of reliable published sources, especially recent ones. Since 2013, that has been "MC-21". Anyway, the Russian government has been reported as saying the the aircraft will be renamed, probably to Yak-242, when it enters full production, so it will be a moot point by then. All that said, I have no problem briefly clarifying in the text that MS-21 is the correct transliteration of MC-21. - BilCat (talk) 17:00, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

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Wider luggage racks

The current version of the article says that the MC-21 will have "wider luggage racks than contempary types". I have been searching for a source for this, and the only thing I could find is a somewhat dubious-looking 2012 interview with the President of Irkut, and even there he only vaguely mentions them. Given that since 2012 both Boeing and Airbus have been progressively increasing the size of their luggage racks, I'll tag the claim in the article as dubious - however, if someone has a better source for the information, could you please add it? — QuantumEleven 09:01, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

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MOS:PUNCTREF

Do you understand a ref tag should support some text, not void?--Marc Lacoste (talk) 16:56, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

I have added text CBG17 (talk) 16:57, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Not everywhere, and the Transaero order isn't cancelled. Transaero is bankrupt, but we don't know what happened to the contract, saying the order is cancelled is WP:OR without a ref.--Marc Lacoste (talk) 17:11, 20 July 2017 (UTC)#

If the airline went bankrupt then the order was cancelled, also you don't need to have text after every reference in the columns. Look at the Sukhoi SSJ100 order table. CBG17 (talk) 17:26, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

The causality ("then") is your deduction, it could be standing waiting for the court to decide or whatever. I'm sure you can find a reliable source for this, but until you have a reference, wikipedia should not be the place for guessing.--Marc Lacoste (talk) 07:46, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
You do have to have text before a reference per WP:MOS, the SSJ100 order table isn't compliant either.--Marc Lacoste (talk) 07:46, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

If this is the case why would administrators of wikipedia come to a conclusion to replace terminal columns with reference columns which contain no text if it wasn't allowed. It clearly is allowed otherwise this wouldn't have happened User talk:CBG17 12:51, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

No one took the time to enforce that. Admins aren't here to enforce policies, only to resolve disputes. Editors enforce policies towards consensus. It's not that hard to have refs after text, we could manage a consensus too.--Marc Lacoste (talk) 11:17, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

MC-21 totals

With reference to the changes you made to the MC-21 totals, please use the MC-21 talk page to explain why you think the current totals are wrong and provide an explanation how you calculated the "correct" totals. Regards, C1010 (talk) 01:34, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

The 205 total is referenced by TASS (18 Jul 2018). The difference between adding the lines and the real 205 total might be because of lessors and airlines orders are not distinguished and some may be counted twice (e.g. the 30 order for VEB Leasing includes 10 for UTair, which are counted again). There was even a title on the table to avoid false counts "Total different than official count because of lessors and airlines orders not distinguished" but it seems insufficient. Don't revert before gaining consensus here per WP:BRD, the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Thanks!--Marc Lacoste (talk) 06:09, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
The article you cited refers to "firm orders". I consider it possible that there could other orders that are not yet "firm" for one reason or another (e.g. deposits have not yet been paid, delivery dates have not been agreed to, etc.)
In any case, there are sevel problems with your edit:
  1. The Total number you provided does not agree with the content of the table
  2. It's not even clear what the Total number refers to as it is currently located under the Options column
  3. You completely removed Options and Orders+Options totals.
I suggest you either edit the table and make it consistent with the total numbers, removing possible double entries, or I will restore the old numbers due to the reasons I described above. Regards, C1010 (talk) 09:23, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
"firm orders": True, I clarified that. Firm orders are opposed to options, not tentative orders.
1. "Total number you provided does not agree with the content of the table" It's the opposite : the table don't agree with the official count (reported by TASS, Russia's news agency, and the MC-21 is produced by a state enterprise, so they know what the are saying)
2. "under the Options" Clarified
3. "removed Options and Orders+Options totals" Yes, and we have to avoid adding it ourselves, it would be WP:OR as we don't know which are duplicates.
"I suggest you either edit the table [...] or I will restore the old numbers" My edit has clarified things, but I repeat: no WP:OR additions please. --Marc Lacoste (talk) 10:07, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

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