Talk:Worldillia

Appears with CAPS in Japanese text

the lede comment "(stylized as WORLDILLIA)" doesn't appear to be supported by English language WP:RS sources. Japanese text habitually uses CAPS for English titles in running Japanese, but this is an English-language encyclopedia and isn't interested about whether English CAPS appear in running hiragana and katakana. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:40, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No. This album's name in Japan is written as "WORLDILLIA" rather than "wordillia" or "Worldillia". Capitalization is not a standard form of treating these. This is how this particular album's name is written in Japanese and there are no English language sources that bother with such an album. Stop deciding that such a minor thing as how the album's name is written in Japan is a trivial aspect when it's not the article title here because of the manuals of style.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:44, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In that case your addition applies only to Japanese text and is unsourced for English. Is that correct? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:15, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That is the case, but it is not a reason to omit the information, which is what you are clearly trying to accomplish here and on Beautiful Deformity, To Love (Kana Nishino album), Break the Border, Voice (2AM album), Level3 (Perfume album), and Time (TVXQ album).—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:18, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well ja:Category:2008年のアルバム shows that Japanese wp gives ENGLISH CAPS titles to many albums, so do we start adding The Spaghetti Incident (stylized in Japanese sources as THE SPAGHETTI INCIDENT) to American albums? Obviously not. So why is it important to include how Japanese text treats the album name in the lead of an English article? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:26, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is an album by a Japanese band. It should include the title of the album as presented within Japan. Just because this happens to use the English alphabet is not a reason to omit the information from the article. Your slippery slope would not happen. And the only reason this page is not titled WORLDILLIA is because of Wikipedia's MOS guides because I'd be damned if I can find any English language reliable sources that discuss this album. And in that category you have things ranging from "Are you happy now?" to "COVER YOU" and every capitalization scheme of English language text in between.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:32, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Then it is "in Japanese" not "in Japan" In ictu oculi (talk) 16:43, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As stated at Talk:To Love (Kana Nishino album) how is one not the same as the other? "WORLDILLIA" is how the album is titled within Japanese language sources which are as far as I'm aware always from Japan. Unless you are asking for some Japanese print media written exclusively in the English language as some sort of hypothetical example of how this album's name would be written in that.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, that's what we're trying to establish, whether in any case there are any English WP:RS for this edit at all.

Worldillia (stylized as WORLDILLIA in Japan)...

the above is still WP:OR, wheras the below would be more accurate

Worldillia (capitalized as WORLDILLIA in Japanese text)...

Can you please amend the lead to the second form. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:50, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No. There's no need to be this pedantic. It's not a violation of WP:OR. I can swear I've had to deal with this very topic with you (or someone else) in the past that the use of "stylization" was somehow against Wikipedia's guidelines and policies because it's not referred to as such and the word is only used because of the standards of Wikipedia's various manuals of style.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately you've just admitted that it is not stylized as WORLDILLA in English sources in Japan, but only capitalized in Japanese text. Having just said that on the Talk page, you cannot claim otherwise in the lead (if the lead really needs this edit at all). In ictu oculi (talk) 16:59, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if there exist these hypothetical English sources in Japan to even base your damn conclusion on. It's the title within Japan where 99% of the people speak and reliable sources are written in Japanese. That's all I know about this album and the any other ones that you've been doing all these edits to.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

English sources on Japanese culture will catch up with the Japanese sources if it is notable. If we compare the albums that are covered in more recent books such as Mark Schilling, Sandra Buckley or Continuum volumes we can fix whether English sources generally CAPITALIZE Japanese album titles, and they don't. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So now you're just throwing in the "this isn't in English language sources so it can't be notable" then. And Mark Schilling, Sandra Buckley, and Continuum all have their own personal manuals of style just as Wikipedia does. I'm tired of having this discussion regarding the use of English within Japan. It's just the way the album's name is written. Why are you being so pedantic about this?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:11, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No I'm saying "this isn't in English language sources so it can't be English". Do you understand the difference between Japanese language text and English language text? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:16, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. But this is clearly both. "WORLDILLIA" is English language text used within Japanese language sources to refer to this album's title, where the exact strings of "Worldillia" and "worldillia" do not appear. Just like for example there are probably dozens of songs titled "Sakura" in Japan but they're formatted as "SAKURA" or "sakura" or "さくら" or "サクラ" or "桜" and each one is by a different artist and a uniquely different entity, but they all possess the same name when translated into English which is what has happened here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:26, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

But the issue here for English text is whether when Mark Schilling, Sandra Buckley, and Continuum catch up with this 2003 album will they capitalize it? The evidence to date is no. So if we mean "in Japanese text" then we should say "in Japanese text", since that is what we mean, and that is the actual case, yes? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If that's how you want it to be described, but I still disagree with requiring such a change.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:51, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want the insert in the lead at all. I am simply saying that if you insist on that insert you should make it clear that by "in Japan" you mean "in Japanese text" not "in Japan". As it stands your wording in an English encyclopedia could be misread as "in English in Japan" rather than "in Japanese in Japan". In ictu oculi (talk) 18:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's a trademark so leave it as that. And don't tell me my argument now means changing "stylized" to "trademarked" or that I need a source for a trademark. I'm done with this and all of the other discussions. And the insert belongs whether you like it or not.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Then we leave it at that. We have agreed that this is simply how Japanese sources treat English CAPS titles within Japanese language sentences. That's a good place to pause. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:10, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]