Talk:World War II casualties/Archives/2010/June

"Jewish Holocaust Deaths"

The holocaust was not just the execution of Jewish citizens of the invaded states, it was also of homosexuals, Poles, Soviets, immigrants, "work shy" (arbeitscheu) and those resisting the third reich. I am therefore concerened over whether the figures labeled "Jewish Holocaust Deaths" were representing estimated Jewish deaths or the total deaths from the extermination and concentration camps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.192.222 (talk) 14:45, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

We have reliable figures on Jewish Holocaust deaths by country, That is not the case with non Jews, the notes have general estimates. Anyway, not all sources include non-Jews as Holocaust victims, the inclusion of non-Jews is disputed by scholars.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Its my understanding that the Germans kept meticulous and accurate records of everything they did. If there is a source only counting Jews, then it is not taken from the actual records and should not be cited here. Also, I notice your Jewish Holocaust figures are perfectly rounded, which would be absolutely impossible with accurate statistics.

If Jews are only counted, then we have thousands of people that the article does not count at all. Note that the figures for China have a 10 million person gap in estimation; citing the facts is more important than being perfectly accurate. There have also been regular aditions of relatively small figures, like 700 some people at a time. Then why passover several hundred thousand people in the total? Any source that denies the holocaust to any extent is not an acceptable reference. These accounts are very well documented, bigotry will not be tolerated by any means. I am going to the history check and see if anyone has recently removed figures for non-Jews or has changed the wording. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 04:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, apparently you are the article's top contributor for the past few years. Please add the statistics for non-Jewish holocaust victims. Call the top "Holocaust Victims" (you could separate the two, but the comparison would be unnecessary and spark controversy) and readjust the numbers per country. The Holocaust article says about 9 million (high figure, includes POWs) non-Jews were killed. Check the sources and use those statistics, try to find data by country. That these figures were not included in the years that this article has existed is purely disgusting: I cannot express my contempt and sadness. These were people that died horrible and unnecessary deaths; the least very least someone can do is count them in an encyclopedia. I see the lowest figures (lower than The Holocaust article's lowest range) are included in the notes but not in the total? Please fix this. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 04:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Chinas Super Holocaust

The Japanese killed 30 million in China- here is the source [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.56.137.237 (talk) 17:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

This is not a reliable source-self published-author-this is not acceptable on Wikipedia--Woogie10w (talk) 10:48, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Ukrainian Holocaust dead

Ukraine lost 10 million- here is the source [2]--173.56.137.237 (talk) 17:47, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Ukraine was not indepependant nation then-numbers included with USSR--Woogie10w (talk) 10:49, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Bealrus Holocaust Holocaust War Dead

Bealrus lost 2.5-3.0 million killed by Nazi's- See Source [3]--173.56.137.237 (talk) 17:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

The numbers here are way too low Russia lost 37 to 48 million here is your source [4]--173.56.137.237 (talk) 18:01, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Bealrus was not indepependant nation then-numbers included with USSR--Woogie10w (talk) 10:50, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Check your numbers

Matthew White has all the numbers you need to redo this page check this source[5]--173.56.137.237 (talk) 18:04, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

White is not a reliable source-he has no credientials worth mentioning-just another guy on the internet who copies numbers from dated English language sources--Woogie10w (talk) 10:52, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Estonia and Latvia

Estonia and Latvia were part of the USSR in the war include them with USSR--173.56.137.237 (talk) 18:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

In 1939 when the war broke out Estonia and Latvia were independant and were illegaly occupied by the USSR in 1940--Woogie10w (talk) 11:12, 4 June 2010 (UTC)--Woogie10w (talk) 11:12, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

African War Dead

This page is rascist where are all the Africans fighting in the war, you deledted them , put then back on this page--173.56.137.237 (talk) 18:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

These people were conscriped by the UK and France and included with Uk and French forces--Woogie10w (talk) 11:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Irish War dead

Hey you deleted the Irish who were fighting in UK put them back now--173.56.137.237 (talk) 18:12, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

How was this fighting linked to World War II? --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 21:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

These people were volunteers included with the UK forces. not Irish--Woogie10w (talk) 11:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Austrian War dead

You forgot Austrian military war dead --173.56.137.237 (talk) 18:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Please see the note to the entry on Austria - they're included with German war dead. Given that Austria was part of Germany at the time (and hence Austrians were integrated into German military units) I imagine that there isn't a separate figure Nick-D (talk) 23:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Austrians were included with Geraman Armed forces, they had no separate Armed forces.

The USA also had Austrian and German citizens in its forces, they were included with the US

BTW Henry Kissinger was in the US Army in the war, he was not a German, he was an American soldier--Woogie10w (talk) 11:07, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Sources For a Redo of this page

Here are some sources to redo this page

These numbers have a reliable source [6]

These numbers look OK [7]

Check this out, its a college professor [8]

The sources for these numbers are reliable [9]

This website has reliable sources [10]

--173.56.137.237 (talk) 19:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

What's the problem with the current figures? (which are all reliably sourced to recent scholarship). Many of those sites don't look at all reliable. Nick-D (talk) 23:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

These figures are self published on the internet and not a reliable source for Wikipedia--Woogie10w (talk) 11:03, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Matthew White

Matthew White is an expert on casualties

Here are his numbers [11]

He uses only high grade sources--173.56.137.237 (talk) 19:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

White is not a reliable source-he has no credientials worth mentioning-just another guy on the internet who copies numbers from dated English language sources--Woogie10w (talk) 10:52, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

1.5 Roma(gypsy dead) in Holocaust

Professor Ian Hancock puts the Roma Holocaust dead a 1.5 Million [12] --173.56.137.237 (talk) 19:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

The figure makes no sense and is not accepted by scholars on the war--Woogie10w (talk) 11:01, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Holocaust Dead the true Figures

RJ Rummel has a list of Holocaust dead [13]

Here is the link [14]

Here are the real Holocaust numbers with a source--173.56.137.237 (talk) 19:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

RJ Rummel's figures have been discredited, see remarks on this page by Paul Siebert.

We have no reliable figures of the non-Jewish victims of the Nazis by country, only general estimates--Woogie10w (talk) 10:55, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Please give sources that indicate calculations of Jewish dead are more reliable. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that some sources do not count non-Jews as 'holocaust' victims and would be placed in civilian casualty listings? I'd really like to see some arguments as to why one group of people could count their dead more accurately than another in the same exact situation.

The article Holocaust gives precedent to the idea that non-Jews are counted among holocaust victims. Given that that article is more likely to see expert attention, a more varied group of editors, and peer review, this article should follow Holocaust's standings when referring to holocaust related figures. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 14:04, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that there is no reliable source with a list by country of non-Jewish victims of the Nazis. We do have a reliable list of Jews killed, in any case most scholars include only Jews as Holocaust victims. RJ Rummel's figure of 20.9 million has been discredited, see remarks on this page by Paul Siebert. The figure of 9-11 to million Holocaust victims was a creation of Jimmy Carter in 1979 and is not broken out by country or ethnic group.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:20, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't general consensus favor those scholars you say have a minority view? Ask anyone if Gays were killed in the holocaust, they wouln't say "technically no". I'm sure there is data reflecting this. Also, if the holocaust is a cultural idea, isn't POV to make a branch of war deaths for it? POWs, Roma, Gays, the disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses, Pacifists, Communists, Poles, etc, etc were treated in the same exact manner, the very same thing you call the "holocaust" happened to them. I'm sure the Roma people have a specific word for the holocaust. Perhaps we should make a new branch of tolls for them. IronMaidenRocks (talk) 21:00, 10 June 2010 (UTC)--

The problem is that there is no reliable source with a list by country of non-Jewish victims of the Nazis. In other words give us a source to discuss--Woogie10w (talk) 21:52, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

BTW this is not POV. Please read the lead of the Wikipedia Holocaust article- The Holocaust is the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II.--Woogie10w (talk) 22:36, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

The problem in a nutshell is that the Jews were targeted as a group for extermination, the Poles, Russians and French were not, if they opposed the Nazis then they became victims.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:26, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Gays and Roma People were not targets for extermination? IronMaidenRocks (talk) 21:00, 10 June 2010 (UTC)--

Please read World War II casualties#Notes Holocaust Victims- The non-Jewish victims of the Nazis have a section detailing the losses. There is more to the article than the table--Woogie10w (talk) 17:07, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Holocaust figures-A recap

• Generally speaking the Holocaust is defined as the Nazi genocide of the Jews. This is in the main paragraph of the Wikipedia Holocaust article. This is the view of most scholars today.

• However, some scholars do include non Jews with the Holocaust. There is no reliable source giving a breakout by country of deaths due to Nazi repression or even an agreement on the total. We only have general total estimates for all countries that range from 3 to 11 million additional on Jewish deaths due to Nazi repression.

• The Other deaths due the war and repression listed on this page already include the 3 to 11 million additional deaths due to Nazi repression. They are not omitted from the totals.

• Holocaust deaths and the war total dead in the USSR and Poland are demographic estimates of excess deaths due to the war. There is no exact accounting of total deaths, the cause or date of death, we have only general estimates of population losses caused by the war. The Germans did not keep accurate comprehensive records of those that died in the camps or persons they executed.

• On Wikipedia we can only report what the sources tell us, we cannot guess or estimate what losses may have been. In other words original research is not allowed to fill in the missing data by country, since the sources have given us only estimates of total deaths for all countries due to Nazi repression.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

We have only general demographic estimates of the dead in Poland or the Holcaust-there is no exact tally

Poland has been able to confirm only 1.5 million war dead as of last year [15]

The IPN reported in August of last year that Poland lost 5.6-5.8 million persons in the war. [16]

Yad Vashem has has collected and recorded the names of half of the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis. Millions more still remain unidentified:[17]

--Woogie10w (talk) 15:07, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Australian Coast Watchers

The Australian Coast Watchers that reported from behind the Japanese lines, were they included with the military or with civilians?--Woogie10w (talk) 00:10, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

As they were members of the Australian military, they should be included in the military figures. I believe that all the civilians involved received military commissions. Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi Nick, I just found this webpage on the Coast Watchers[18] 38 deaths were listed with their units not as Coast Watchers.--Woogie10w (talk) 12:33, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

What about the millions Stalin Killed

In the Russian number of 37 million dead are millions killed by Stalin not Hitler

Here is the source, the guy is a professor in Hawaii [19]

RJ Rummel says Stalin killed 10 million Russians in the war, more than Hitler [20]

--173.56.137.237 (talk) 19:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Rummel is being extensively criticised both for the flawed math he used in his studies and for very inaccurate and exaggerate estimates of the number of killed. See the Democide talk page for details.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:06, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Credibility of the source aside, are these only deaths directly linked to the war? --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 21:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

The figure for USSR deaths in war 1941-1945 according to Russian Academy of Science is for all excess deaths over pre-war level. There is no independant audit breaking out causes.--Woogie10w (talk) 10:59, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Re: "are these only deaths directly linked to the war?" Hard to separate. For instance, were the extremely high GULAG death in 1942 directly linked to the war? Formally, not, but in actuality they were caused by desperate shortage of food and medicine in the country. Moreover, most of excess death even in the eastern parts of the USSR, that were caused by food and medicine shortage, extremely hard labour conditions etc, may be considered as directly linked to the war.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:22, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

A consideration. In terms of whether or not peripheral war-related civilian deaths from the USSR should go in, from the current page we have "Casualties listed here include about 4 to 12 million war-related famine deaths in China, Indonesia, Vietnam, the Philippines, India, and Bangladesh that are often omitted from other compilations of World War II casualties.". There is precedent for including such figures. Where they ought go and whether or not they can reasonably be attained are questions I leave to you. - Schrandit (talk) 08:32, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is what the sources listed on the page tell us:

• A report published by the Russian Academy of Science in 1993 estimated that the total Soviet population losses from 1941–1945, within Soviet borders of 1946–1991, were 26.6 million (including an additional 1.3 million increase in infant mortality) out of a total population of 196.7 million, which included the annexed territories also included by Poland in its figure of war dead.

• A report published by the Russian Academy of Science in 1995 cited the official Soviet era statistics for war losses of 25.3 million war related deaths(not including an additional 1.3 million increase in infant mortality). Total military losses of 8.7 million dead which includes 1.8 million missing in action and POW deaths out of 4.0 million total POW captured. Soviet sources reported civilian deaths in the German occupied USSR totaling 13.7 million, which includes 7.4 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 2.2 million deaths of persons deported to Germany for forced labor; and 4.1 million famine and disease deaths in occupied territory. There were an additional estimated 3.0 million famine deaths in the territory not under German occupation. These losses are for the entire territory of the USSR in 1941, including territories annexed in 1939–40, also included by Poland in its figure of war dead.

• The United Nations reported in 1947 that the famine deaths in Bengal, Indochina, the Dutch East Indies and China were caused by the war. This report was cited by the scholar John W. Dower in his War Without Mercy 1986 ISBN 0-394-75172-8.

• The war total dead in the USSR, Poland and in Asia are demographic estimates of excess deaths due to the war. There is no exact accounting of total deaths, the cause or date of death, we have only general estimates of population losses caused by the war. The Germans and Japanese did not keep accurate comprehensive records of those that died in the camps or persons they executed. The losses due to war related famine are demographic estimates.

• On Wikipedia we can only report what the sources tell us, we cannot guess or estimate what losses may have been. In other words original research is not allowed to fill in the missing data by country, since the sources have give us only demographic estimates of total deaths in countries that suffered Nazi and Japanese repression.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:40, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Mediation

Hello, I have accepted your MEDCAB case, and, pending acceptance of my mediation by all parties, I will begin mediation as soon as possible, questions may be directed to my talk page. Ronk01 (talk) 17:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The issue has been resolved, the Rwanda famine deaths are now on WW2 Casualties page--Woogie10w (talk) 18:00, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok then, I have closed the case Ronk01 (talk) 18:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes

This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:41, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

graphs

the horizontal bar graph shows China and the USSR lost close to equal amounts of people, but the pie graph show the USSR lost more than double. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.70.177.150 (talk) 23:29, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

The bar graph is File:World War II Casualties.svg which shows military deaths in red and civilian deaths in orange. The total is relatively close for China and USSR but USSR had far more military deaths. The pie chart is File:WorldWarII-MilitaryDeaths-Allies-Piechart.png which only shows military deaths. It agrees with the red bar in the bar chart. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:08, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

the charts were prepared in 2008 and have not been tweeked by chart experts in quite some time--Woogie10w (talk) 00:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

German Army

Everybody knows the German Army lost 3.5 million-This page is wrong--173.56.137.237 (talk) 18:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

This page lies, everybody knows that the Germans kept the most accurate records in the world.--173.56.137.237 (talk) 18:15, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is a source that proves it [21]

The "source" is not reliable it is an anonymous post on the internet, not acceptable on Wikipedia.

The Germans did not keep keep the most accurate records in the world, in fact their record keeping system broke down during the war according to Overmans

The 2000 Overmans study of German casulaties was supported by the German government. Overmans is a well known and respected scholar--Woogie10w (talk) 11:17, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Of 15 million expelled Germans about 3 million died during expulsion.--92.230.232.212 (talk) 18:46, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

and others died of starvation - but these deaths were *after* the war ClemMcGann (talk) 19:26, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

what was achieved by second world war

The price paid by deaths of civilians and military personnel is estimated over 7 crores. So many deaths which orphaned millions and made lives miserable for living poses a question. What was at stake and was death of so many necessary. Second world war saw cruel attitude and helpless f millions. It divided nations, religion saw a back seat. Any lesson we learned i indeed want to know —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.124.223.210 (talk) 11:36, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

The World War II article attempts to answer those questions and is well worth a read if you haven't done so already. I'd suggest that you also post these questions at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities if you'd like editors to comment on these topics. Nick-D (talk) 11:50, 30 June 2010 (UTC)