Talk:Wireless power transfer/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Wireless power transfer. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

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Archive 5

Microwave section

Microwave transmission is seriously out of date. Kyoto university and other Japanese research institutions in cooperation with industry have performed lots of research ( http://www.kurasc.kyoto-u.ac.jp/jusps/ , thats just as of 2003, they are definitely further along by now ) and experiments, and they operate at relatively high efficiencies and power levels. Savuporo 12:05, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Major Edit

Ok, I went through and did a major edit of this article. I tried to de-teslaize it but that needs more work and still needs citations. I also reorganized and included new sections for the various methods of wireless energy transfer as well as some minor reworking of the intro and description. I'm going to go link tracing later to fill in citations, but any help there is appreciated as I have never done this before. –AeoniosHaplo 09:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, little update. I still haven't gotten around to doing the citations, but the more I look at this the more I realize how broad an article this is, and the citations for it are going to be fairly nightmarish. After reading through the wikipedia editing guides, I've also decided to do a bit of a rewrite of the types section and add a comparison section additionally. The comparison section will also contain usages for each type, so the final usages section will get nixed in the process. I also plan on going through and enhancing this talk page so we have a bit better global organization for it. Right now the plans are kinda fuzzy and it's making prioritizing of work difficult. I hope to be able to dedicate a lot of time to this soon. AeoniosHaplo 10:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Further update. I looked once more at the references section, and found a load of sources dated 1900-1920. The references section apparently needs to be de-teslaized too, and needs a serious cleaning in general. *Sigh*. I'll probably burn through that first as it's gonna have to be done in order to properly cite anything. AeoniosHaplo 10:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Some clean up was done but the majority of your edits look like vandalism to me. De-teslaized is an insulting expression that most clearly gives away how your intentions are not aimed to improve the article. Gdewilde (talk) 12:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the right place to put this. Can't find a post button sorry. U.S. Patent 0,645,576 System of Transmission of Electrical Energy and U.S. Patent 0,649,621 - These items are in the Tesla Patents section which is at the end of the article. Both these links are broken. Google Patents claims to NOT have this document. Ajudicator 20:42, 4th December 2009 (GMT +2:00) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.246.84.98 (talk) 18:42, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Medical Implants

In response to a question from me, Geoffrey Wickham provided very helpful information on my personal page, which could maybe be incorporated here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cfrjlr#Reply_to_request_on_artificial_pacemaker_talk_page

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cfrjlr (talk • contribs) 15:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

Question to Wireless Energy Transfer Pros

1 - Is there technology currently available to provide wireless energy or means for wireless recharging? (I know of a company, SplashPower that provides wireless recharging of portable devices by placing the devices on a mat) I'm researching available technologies and products to develop next generation devices that can be powered wirelessly (phones, watches, laptops, mp3 players, keyboards, mice, etc.)

There are quite a few technologies that utilize wireless energy transfers. A very prominent example is RFID. The primary methods are electro-magnetic coupling (known informally as "backscattering") and inductive coupling. As well, you might also be interested in the Hall Effect devices. Current probes that clamp around a wire use it to determine the amount of current traveling through the wire by the induced magnetic field. FoxFord 21:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The answer is yes - Inductive Power Transfer, or academically now referred to as Inductively Coupled Power Transfer, as Wampfler of Germany now holds IPT as a trademark. Unlike all these wussy consumer chargers Wampler and Vahle transfer significant power (1-100kW range) in industrial applications. Daifuku and Shinko(sp?) make similar products for ultra clean room automation. All companies deliver efficiencies of 80% or better over gaps of 10mm on guided tracks. Electric Bus charging stations are made that transfer over 4-5 times as much a gap.

2 - I've done a little bit of research on Tesla's findings on wireless energy transfer(WET) and am intrigued to explore new possibilities of WET. For example, would it be possible to develop a device that plugs into an outlet to transmit energy to all electronic (energy dependent) devices in that room (or within a certain distance)? From my findings, it seems that each dependent device would need a special energy receiving chip to be compatible with the transmitter. (There is currently a company that offers "wireless extension cords" which transmit energy via micro waves) but has many limitations and potential side effects due to the nature of the energy.

I think what you're referring to as "wireless extension cords" is a thinkgeek joke seen here: http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/wec.shtml . To my knowledge, no one has produced such a device. There are many limitations that would limit the application of it. Power dissipation would occur very rapidly, and the ability to convert from a very high frequency signal to a 60Hz 120VAC signal with the proper current delivered would be incredibly difficult. As well, the practical limitations of diodes to create a full wave rectified signal would also come into effect. FoxFord 21:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Your comments are appreciated.

Lol. In reality that would work as advertised. However, it would indeed fry anything in the line of sight of the sending beam, including (permanently) computer equipment, cars, humans, plants, and as an added bonus could also be used to cook food.

Secondly, the 'mat' device uses induction (basically it's one end of a transformer). As such objects to be charged must have their charging interface very close to the charger (basically direct contact). Also, an open AC inductor like that will couple indiscriminately with any conductive material, and as such would function as an induction stove unit (put an iron pot on it and cook) and would have rather bad effects on any processors or other sensitive electronics which don't have an interface to catch the energy. While it may be 'wireless', you still need a wire to the base mat and then objects have to be in direct contact with it. IMO that's only modestly better than having a wire going directly to the thing to be charged. The main advantage is that with a largish pad you can charge multiple things universally with only one wire total. AeoniosHaplo 21:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Factual Errors

Anyone can demonstrate that energy can be "sent" without a direct connection by simply touching the ends of a wire, briefly, to the ends of a small battery. Hold the wire near a compass needle while you do this and you'll see the compass needle twitch. It takes energy to make something move, so you've transmitted energy wirelessly. Well, at least without touching the compass with the wire!

Electric current induces a magnetic field. The reason the compass needle deflects is NOT due to "wireless current transmission" but merely due to the magnetic field created by short-circuiting the battery. In fact, this is an example of WIRED current transmission -- NOT wireless.

--Eibwen 18:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The reason the compass needle deflects is NOT due to "wireless current transmission" but merely due to the magnetic field created by short-circuiting the battery.

It's an example of wireless energy transfer, though... — Omegatron 19:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

How about to use the term "electromagnetic waveforms": Wireless energy transfer (by definition) is the transfer of electromagnetic waveforms (energy) without conductive wires. - The compass example is not wrong: it is a single induction pulse with no frequency (unless it is repeated), but with dE/dT paramters (flux/energy potential change over time). The examples need to be formulated better (probably in a table), and by one or two sentences. Probably it is not required to explain all details of Tesla's research, if it is already included in the Tesla article (means it is possible to shorten the passage). However, it does not bug too much to stay like it is. I remember it on my todo list (from suggest bot). Yy-bo 12:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I have the following issues, though haven't read more than the start of the article. Just thought I'd share: 1) The explanations sound like something off a textbook, but not an encyclopedia, unless proper editing condenses the rest of his explanations into a "for example" paragraph --nothing more or this will be seen as POV. 2) I agree with Eibwen but not Omegatron. I just read the first paragraph knowing full-well the effects of conspiracy theorists and protoscience on this topic. The compass example, as particle physics teaches us is not a proof of transmission, by far. It merely shows how electricity and magnetism influence objects. 3) Wireless energy should be seen as protoscience, since it is young and hasn't been experimentally falsified AFIK. For similar controversy on the topic, look up the talk pages on Randell Mills who proposes Hydrinos in ways that pull credibility away from Quantum Physics and the scientific community --seems that scientists are banded against him while enthusiasts with no proper training like the concepts in equations and tests too grand for to verify without the proper background. Tesla himself was controversial and linked to occult information and apparently has something conspiracists like. Fractaltiger 08:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is sample analogy a few links away, copied verbatim as an example of how the first section should read to be less colloquial. The article is on the Transformer, section 'An Analogy':

The transformer may be considered as a simple two-wheel 'gearbox' for electrical voltage and current. The primary winding is analogous to the input shaft and the secondary winding to the output shaft. In this analogy, current is equivalent to shaft speed, voltage to shaft torque. In a gearbox, mechanical power (speed multiplied by torque) is constant (neglecting losses) and is equivalent to electrical power (voltage multiplied by current) which is also constant.

Hope it helps.Fractaltiger 08:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It is obviously a form of energy transfer. The compass needle moves against its inertia, which requires energy. You are supplying that energy from a battery. The energy was transmitted from your loop of wire to the compass through the wire's magnetic field.

As an analogy, pick up a stick and push the compass needle with it. You've just transferred energy from your hand to the compass needle through the stick. This would be "stick energy transfer", no?

Since there is no physical object connecting your loop of wire to the compass needle, and you are transmitting enough energy to make something macroscopic happen, this form of energy transfer is more interesting than sticks or radios (which send just enough energy to transfer information). But they are all the same thing; transferring energy from one point to another. — Omegatron 13:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Omegatron, I expected no less of a refute to my comment :) So here is the counter-refute I had prepared. Bear in mind that this is a subtle part of an unresolved dispute in physics. See the very last paragraphs of this google search result: If in an electromagnetic field you expect a transfer of energy, with particles moving back and forth between the compass, the battery and its cables, there should be a particle delivering energy with gravitational fields too. How else can an object move in outter space with forces applied to it by stars millions of miles away, such as our sun? Worse yet, the forces seem to "act" instantly, defying the limits imposed to this whole proposal of wireless energy transfers by the speed of light itself.

How is it different from electromagnetism, since elementary particles such as photons and electrons are thought to be needed for electromagnetic energy transfers, yet seem to be a side effect of something science can't quite grasp. I re-read my posts and haven't yet stressed my point (I believe it to fall within modern science's own): The presence of the magnetic field per se is affecting the compass in the same way as the presence of the Earth is affecting the moon's orbit; no energy is transfered for this to happen --it just happens. It'd be fine if I were wrong about the particular example in the article. The entire field of the article is not mainstream. As a result, I will not be contributing ideas to the it due to my POV. You don't like seeing pseudoscience articles altered merely from people's preconceptions, and I see this as evidence that my discussing the subject could be straining. I won't go far in making more points about topics that baffle even the pros. Cheers! Fractaltiger 02:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand your objection. The compass needle is being moved by the wire's changing magnetic field, so the energy is being transferred by the electromagnetic field (or by photons, depending on your perspective, no?) Wireless energy transfer is limited to the speed of light, as it is carried by electromagnetism. Did I say otherwise? This is especially obvious when you're using lasers or microwave beams as the method of transfer.

I believe gravitational waves travel at the speed of light, too, but I don't see what relevance it has to this subject. — Omegatron 14:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Tesla was essentially proposing establishing an inductive field in the Earth's ionosphere, as created by pulse transmissions from a central tower which would then be tapped by remote receiving stations. ...The practical question of billing customers, even if we imagined such a ubiquitous system realized, is how could anyone prevent unauthorized usage by freeloaders dipping their cup into the stream?

Your graviton analogy is merely begging the question throughout, since as of yet there has not been any observation of the hypothetical gravity carrier particle, nor a quantum theory of gravity or a GUT, any of which are central to your comparison. To date, the most successfully inclusive mathematical model towards unification is string theory or its derivative M-theory, both of which dispose of point particles altogether, but both currently remain untestable mathematical abstraction requiring higher-dimensional spacetime. (By the way, the moon is kept in orbit by the mass of the Earth actively distorting spacetime; mass is energy; its effect is responsible for orbit. Your proposition about gravity acting instantaneously is also wrong — see gravitational waves.(...Omegatron beat me to it.))

I fail to see how your claim that power transmission via electromagnetic induction qualifies as "pseudoscience" is in any way substantiated given that the principle has physically already been put into practice (eg., transcutaneous batteries, RF power transmission), and by your own admission you are arguing from your personal pet quantum hypotheses in invoking an unrelated strawman about gravitational force. It's even more ironic that you would then unscientifically claim "it just happens" with no attributed cause; the "influence on objects" you cite with the example of the compass needle is actively affected wholly by the experimenter's intiative. Apparently you are debating only the semantics of the word "transmission" (or all of physics itself), which is not the issue of this page's topic; the principle of wireless power transfer merely states that no hardwire linkage is required.

~ GALVATRON 16:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Wireless energy should be seen as protoscience, since it is young and hasn't been experimentally falsified AFAIK.

What?? How do you think your mobile phone/microwave oven works (if you have one)? Also I have no idea why you mentioned hydrinos, they have nothing do with this topic. User:Jaganath 17:53, 24 July 2006

Although they're really the same thing, a mobile phone wouldn't be considered wireless "energy" transfer, since they have their own power source. That's more like information transfer. But yeah we all know they're really the same thing, just different purposes and power levels. — Omegatron 17:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like somebody to write down the names of the people who are currently working on this field. It is very important to get that information because they can help the needy more than anyone else on the planet(I suppose so atleast!).

Cell phones do technically transfer radio/microwave energy, but not strictly as energy transfer. While you could build a cell phone with a rectenna, it would receive almost no power and then could not function as a cell phone. Cell phone towers aren't built to beam out usable energy, only readable signal. Also, if you wired up a cell phone tower to transmit enough energy to, say, power all the homes within the cell, you'd not only waste huge amounts of energy, but also fry every living thing within transmission range.
One more thing, there is nothing experimentally unverified about most forms of wireless energy transfer. Most types use induction, and rectennas (which deserve a bigger mention here) have been built and tested to be able to convert microwave energy directly to DC electricity at around 95% efficiency. It is in no way a protoscience, and you are at best confusing 'science' with 'engineering'. However, if the science works, then the engineering will work too if properly implemented, and wikipedia readily mentions future technologies and new inventions (like quantum dots) in articles.
- Final note: Ok how is this guy intending to link complete pseudoscience with wireless energy transfer? He sounds like a 'christian scientist'. There's nothing special about most forms of wireless energy transfer (except for the evanescent wave coupling version, which would replace all wall plugs if it turns out to work) and most of the variations are based on well proven technologies like radio transmission and transformers. AeoniosHaplo 21:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

{{cleanup}} 18:20, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Needs to be de-Tesla-ized and some contemporary stuff added. --Pjacobi 18:20, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. — Omegatron 16:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Tesla is cool.

Keep Tesla in the article please.

I'm not sure what you mean by de-Teslaized, Pjacob. Tesla, who invented AC power transmission, was a pioneering thinker in the area of wireless transmission, whatever you think of his results. The article as it stands is overly dominated by Tesla information, which needs summarizing by someone who knows what they're doing. Looking at the size of the article on Heinrich Hertz today (Mar 2006), I can see that there's a whole lot of work that needs development, summarizing and scoping in the area of historical EM technology application. Twang 02:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

No, but clean it

Tesla was the main proponent of wireless energy transfer (usually by microwave or induction) and should be included here. However, the giant slab of tesla needs to be cut down and the archaic text removed. It reads more like an 1890s article written by some Tesla occultist than a wiki article. There's some interesting information on his 'wireless energy transfer' mechanisms, but they need to be extracted and clarified without all of the bulky nonsense surrounding them. --Haplo 24.98.124.237 08:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It reads more like an 1890s article written by some Tesla occultist than a wiki article.

Exactly. — Omegatron 15:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me or does tesla's energy transfer idea sound a whole lot like shooting lightning long distances? AeoniosHaplo 03:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

BBC News / resonant MIT technology

UPDATE on subject... Has anyone seen [4]to qoute from below "Me don't know physics so I leave this to someone who is more knowledgeable." --Vladimirko 13:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Can someone incorporate this article[5] from BBC. Apparently, there is a way for commercialisation of this technology. Me don't know physics so I leave this to someone who is more knowledgeable.Vapour

Just saw this, too. Of course the news articles just hand wave everything and don't explain how anything actually works. The actual paper is here. I skimmed through it and it's a little over my head... — Omegatron 18:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It appears to my (nonexpert but educated) eyes to use higher-order multipole moments and resonant devices in the gigahertz range to acheive power transfer. This is a type of coupled osccilator. Looks promising, if the issues of high-freqeuncy power conversion could be handled. - JustinWick 21:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand the difference between this and a transmitter that radiates equally in all directions. I'm not grasping how it can selectively send energy in one direction but not the others. Something to do with near and far field? — Omegatron 21:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. If you read about higher order moments, you'll find that they don't radiate, and they are spread out unevenly. Even an ordinary dipole moment (the mode which does radiate) is hardly isotropic (a true isotropic radiator would be a wonderful device to have, but physically impossible to create under current theories). Anyways the power is "transmitted" in the form of waves that don't radiate (can't really "leave" the source as they are bound, sorry this is a bit of an oversimplification and bound to be slightly inaccurate, pardon the pun). A lot of devices, like transformers transmit energy in this way. This is just a fancy way to make long-distance transformers. Still very cool IMHO - JustinWick 09:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I get the idea now. The near and far field article needs some work, by the way. You sound like you could help. See Talk:Near and far field. — Omegatron 16:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I showed the BBC article to my Engneering friend who deal with microwave. He says that the article makes no sense. Resonate or not energy will hit human in the room which isn't good. Moreover, it is extremly inefficient way to transfer energy if what BBC article say is true. I will show the original paper to him and see what he say. Vapour

It's not efficient, however I doubt that's the main intention of the system - portability is much more important than efficiency for many low-power applications. As for the human in the room, I'm not sure how much that will affect it - see if you can get your bud to find a reference w/ the dissapation level of EM fields at various frequencies interacting with human bodies. I haven't done any of this stuff in a while, however I've transmitted at frequencies close to this (6 Mhz is 50 meters, I was on 40 at the time) with reasonably high power setups, and I never noticed any internal heating, which would be expected if there was significant interaction. - JustinWick 09:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You are surrounded by transformers that are coupling 60 Hz into your body all the time, with no noticeable problems. I can see how this would be similar. — Omegatron 16:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

--: No, neither the BBC article nor the MIT article are correct. It does not at all work like a transformer, despite what they are feeding the public, a transformer like that would not have strong enough magnetic coupling and would waste energy. The actual mechanism behind their 'wireless energy transfer' uses two short circuited resonant radio (although it can work with any light) waveguides. The waveguides produce evanescent waves which do not carry energy, but can affect other nearby waveguides allowing the EM radiation to tunnel from one waveguide to the other (from the base station to the wireless receiver) which can then be rectified into DC electricity. See the wiki article on superlenses, evanescent waves, and evanescent wave coupling (I believe) for more specific information and links to better resources. Note that a negative refractive index material could massively boost the range and coupling for such a system. See the articles for the reason for that as well. --Haplo 24.98.124.237 09:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, it works exactly like a transformer. Evanescent fields are the electric and magnetic fields of the nearfield region surrounding any material or substance which interacts with electromagnetism. Evanescent waves are non-propagating in that they are "emitted" during 1/4 cycle by an electric current or a charge-separation, and are then re-absorbed during the next 1/4 cycle, only to be emitted again.

Partial reflection can accomplish this, but so can coils or capacitors. If you apply AC to a simple loop inductor, the evanescent wave is the expanding and contracting b-field surrounding the inductor. One simple example of evanescent wave coupling is seen whenever EM energy is transferred between the two plates of a capacitor. Note well that light and radio waves are the same thing. You say that evanescent waves don't apply to transformers? That's exactly the same as saying that Maxwell's Equations apply to transformers but do not apply to the EM fields involved with total internal reflection!

When we say that evanescent waves do not carry energy, we actually mean that the EM energy vector is oscillating, with no overall energy flow. The effect is identical to "imaginary power" in AC circuitry. But evanescent waves can easily be made to carry energy. After all, that's what the 2006 MIT paper is all about. But usually such topics are called "capacitive coupling" or "inductive coupling."

However, the MIT article contains one difference between simple capacitor/coil coupling versus "wireless power transfer." They are using high-Q resonators. This is identical to a tuned-primary, tuned-secondary transformer. In this type of transformer, the coupling between the coils is proportional to the "Q" of the resonant circuits, and with high Q, even an air-core transformer will exhibit tight coupling. Which high enough "Q", the coupling remains significant even when the primary and secondary are separated by fairly large distance. --Wjbeaty 21:16, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Both the anon and the Wjbeaty guy are the reason I bother reading these talk pages. Often they contain much more useful information (albeit in a free form) than the article itself! Thanks for helping clear this up, guys. Anyone who's been using their physics degree more recently than I care to comment further? - JustinWick 18:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Units??

Just noticed that most (if not all) of the units in this article are in miles, not SI units (as stated in the manual of style) - should these be changed? (I was going to do it myself, but I wan't 100% confident it was the right thing to do) Rarosalion 04:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

They should be changed unless the original measurement was specifically in miles. Like, if it says "Tesla created a device 100 ft long", you should not replace the 100 ft, but add a metric conversion instead: "Tesla created a device 100 ft (30 m) long" — Omegatron 17:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Lasers, IR Remote Controls

Not that I know what I'm talking about, but if light is electromagnetic energy aren't things like an infrared remote control, or a "solar powered" (meaning desklamp powered) calculator actually wireless energy transfer. And maybe there's some kind of use of lasers to power something remotely as well (one hears of ideas to launch rocket ships with a laser ground station).

If so perhaps there should be a section on "Visible and Near-Visible Light Wireless Energy Transfer". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.238.72 (talk) 11:29, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

There's already a section for that, although technically a solar calculator isn't wireless energy, but if you use a desklamp to power it then it is, sort of. If you're using the sun, then you don't control the power source, but a desk lamp is an artificial power source and thus counts. Oddly and very badly, but I guess it works. I already mentioned the space ship thing by the way. AeoniosHaplo 13:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

An infrared remote control is wireless information transfer. The physics are similar, but the application is different. Your remote control isn't providing power to run the TV; it's just sending information to it. I tried to change the intro to clarify this. — Omegatron 20:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

... and it has apparently been changed by User:GLPeterson to say "Such systems can be used for the transfer of either information or power", which is wrong. — Omegatron 20:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

an easy to read 'can't do' section is needed.

the occasional reader will ask why can't one power electric cars from a distance or sth. --Leladax 09:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that would be great. I've read a lot on Tesla now, and the documenting of his Col Springs experiments with wireless energy transfer sounded hugely promising. I've Googled for this with 'problems', but haven't found any discussion on it. What was the major problem with conducting electricity through the earth in this way? The Wiki article on standing waves references his discovery of these from a thunderstorm hundreds of miles away, and his counting on these as proof that waves could be broadcasted this far. Is this not the case? It's hard to believe we've gone from this in 1899 to a Splashpad in 100 years, seems like little progress. ;-)

Power beaming

Merge or not? I support the merge. — Omegatron 23:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Do it. GPeterson 00:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Wireless energy transfer is NOT information transfer

Maybe some examples will make this more clear:

Wireless energy transfer

Microwave rectennas powering model airplanes
Rechargable toothbrushes being charged without a direct connection
Charging mat for portable gadgets
Artificial heart and other bionic devices

Wireless information transfer

Wireless power and information transfer

— Omegatron 23:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that wireless energy transfer is not information transfer. On the other hand, wireless energy transfer CAN be used to transmit information from one point to another, and it is okay to say so. Here are the words of a pioneer in the field of wireless energy transmission.

"On my return to New York [from Pittsburgh] the next year, that was early in 1889, I engaged a laboratory at 175 Grand Street, close to Center Street. . . . I had at that time already perceived enough to get the idea that energy could be transmitted without wires. It was of no consequence to me at that time whether it was to be used for telegraphy, or telephony, or power transmission. I was on the problem of transmitting energy without wires; and as it is my custom always to analyze scientifically every problem that I undertake to solve, I devoted a great deal of thought to how to attack that problem, and the following crystallized out. . . ." Nikola Tesla on wireless telegraphy, telephony and transmission of power, 1916

Wireless energy transfer and wireless power transfer are not synonomous terms. If this is really a problem for you, I suggest that you create an encyclopedia entry entitled "Wireless power transfer" or change the title of this one. GPeterson 22:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

This article is about transmission of energy for the purpose of supplying power to otherwise unpowered devices things. Radio is the article about transmission of energy for the purpose of transferring information. They are distinct applications of the same physics concept. Stuff about radio, broadcast,and telecommunications needs to be moved into the appropriate article.

I view this article as simply being about the transmission of energy.

An article titled "wireless power transfer" would be a sloppy use of terminology, since power is defined as the rate at which energy is transferred. You can transfer energy, but "transferring the rate of energy transfer" doesn't make much sense. Wireless power transmission already exists, but is a redirect to this article, since they would cover the same topic and "Wireless energy transfer" is the more correct term. If you need to think of this article as if it were titled "Wireless power transmission", to differentiate it from information transfer, then please pretend so. — Omegatron 00:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The present title is just fine. . . . GPeterson 00:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

FYI, other EM data transfer includes optical, microwave, IR, and conceivably higher band (UV/X-ray, and perhaps some day gamma radiation) transfer, and ELF of course. Having EM data transfer implied to be synonymous w/ Radio is preposterous, as I'm almost certain that optical alone transfers more bits per day because of human technology than radio. - JustinWick 18:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

From "Evanescent wave coupling" onward

None of this has been proven or demonstrated and it appears that it will be a failure just like it was 80+ years ago. The inverse square law still holds, even at MIT.

There has been "zero" mention of it in any "peer reviewed" journal.

There is a direct challenge here (prize unclaimed):

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/wireless_energy_transmission/

The direct references are over 80 years old and none of the patents or others ever came to fruition...

Those guys at MIT had better spend ten minute wiring it up for a demonstration about "now", or start thinking of "excuses"... "Big energy companies are blocking our work to save the economy" has been a popular "free energy" excuse for the last 30 years...

"Wardenclyffe was not completed due to financial difficulties" - As in, the financial backers realized it was a complete disaster...

The last parts of this article is pseudoscience.

63.229.238.57 01:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC) Gandolf

Do you really mean pseudoscience? Protoscience might be a better term for these cases. GPeterson 23:53, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Through the Earth

This article about electricity conducted through the Earth is suspicious, and makes claims which are not supported. For example, it defies "ohms law". It states that the electrical resistance of the Earth is "negligible" which is false for DC current. Electrical resistance drops off for AC current and varies with frequency, but the author does not provide any numbers or the equations to explain the impedance claimed. In fact he/she does not even specify what the resistance (impedance) actually is. That section of the article needs to be improved or removed. Charles 20:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

-Given the massive cross-sectional areas involved, the impedance of earth-transfer is very close to zero. Impedance is proportional to the distance and inversely proportional to the cross-sectional area of the conductor. Take a series of cross-sectional slices, tracing the path of the current through an earth-conducting circuit. The current density is only high at the nodes, whereby impedance really matters. If the earth circuit is sufficiently coupled, you're suddenly talking about tens-to billions of square metres of conductor cross section. Whereupon impedance becomes negligible. Earth-return AC power is quite commonly used for remote farms and installations, and the impedance of the return line is only really dependant on the coupling of the nodes at each end. 210.9.200.35 04:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the electrical resistance of the Earth is not zero. However, the single-wire earth return article provides many references. If I'm reading those references correctly, they say that several single-wire earth return systems were designed assuming that (with large enough ground stakes) the electrical resistance of the Earth was negligible, then they were built in Australia and Canada, and they seemed to work as expected. Therefore the assumption was justified. p.s.: Lots of real things defy Ohm's law. --68.0.124.33 (talk) 22:10, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Major Rewrite - Do not panic!

Greetings folks, I did a major reorganization of this page, I did not delete anything (even things which look a little suspicious), but somethings have been moved around, and I added some new sections and subsections, and a lot of additional content and references. I hope you all like it, I believe it is a major improvement, although I say so myself. Charles 21:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Spark Plugs

Omegatron you are incorrect in this comment " (→Air - power isn't "jumping between the electrodes"; it's being converted into other forms of energy like light and heat. electrical energy and electrical current are NOT the same thing.) " In a spark plug the power is transmitted between the electrods, current flowing from the positive electrode, through the air gap into the negative electrode. Some of the power is dissipated as light and heat, but there is a current, it is not all dissipated.Charles 23:46, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's not correct. Electrical current, electrical energy, and electrical power are all distinct concepts. Please read about them.

To summarize: current is the flow of electric charge, which is usually in loops, energy travels from the source to the load, and power is the rate at which that energy travels. — Omegatron 23:56, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, so I see we are just fine tuning terminology, we agree on how the spark plug works. I well understand all those different terms (B.Sc. Physics (Lon) 1977).Charles 01:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Applications

The applications section should be dissolved and applications for specific types should be in the section about that type. In other words, powering gadgets should be mentioned in the evanescent section, artificial hearts should be mentioned in the induction section, electrolasers should be mentioned in the air conduction section, etc. It's confusing and poor form to have the applications of each technology in a completely different section from the technology itself. — Omegatron 00:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Reformatting

I agree that the whole article is poorly organized and the applications and methods could be combined. At least I made a start on it, I am open to improvements.Charles 01:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

--

I am willing to take a shot at this if you like. Or let me know if you would prefer to do it. Charles 01:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Phew! I rearranged it. :-) — Omegatron 02:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Cardiac energy transfer through tissue

Omegatron, you do not know what you are typing about here. I have worked with cardiac implants for over two years, and I know in detail how they work. They transmit energy through human tissue, specifically the heart muscle. The implants do NOT use induction for the stimulation. I have worked on measuring the impedance (electrical resistance) of the heart tissue to optimize the power usage between the electrodes.Charles 01:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is a detailed description from the world's biggest manufacturer of pacemakers, describing how they work in some detail. I hope this helps clarify. The amount of energy delivered is relatively small, they are brief pulses of DC current.

http://www.medtronic.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Medtronic/Website/StageArticle&ConditionName=Bradycardia&Stage=Treatment&Article=brady_art_how_pace_works

Charles 01:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but how is that relevant to this article? The important aspect for this article is that the energy the devices use to function is transmitted to their rechargeable batteries through induction coils. — Omegatron 02:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

No wrong again! The batteries are NOT rechargable. Where are you getting this stuff? Induction pickup is used to upload software and download history data. There is no induction involved in the power side, the battery power delivers DC pulses directly into the heart tissue.Charles

The batteries in cardiac implants last several years. The physician keeps track of the charge state during follow-up visits, and before they are depleted they issue a warning. They are then surgically removed and replaced with a new device, this is an outpatient procedure.Charles 02:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Please learn about transcutaneous energy transfer before making further edits to the article. Here are some links:

No one is using tissue conduction to transmit energy. It should be obvious to anyone that this would be quite harmful. Any device that transfers energy to devices inside the body is going to use induction. Skin conduction is used to send low-power signals, like in personal area networks, but that's information transfer, not energy transfer.

Stimulating the heart through tissue conduction has nothing do with wireless energy transfer. — Omegatron 04:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

WRONG! You are confused between apples and oranges. The links you posted all relate to the artifical heart only, and I have accepted all along that those are correct for the Artifical Heart ONLY. But the Pacemakers and Defibrillators operate on completely different principles. Tranmission of energy through tissue is indeed dangerous, and can cause damage if the current is too high (this is not a game for amateurs, do not try this at home). Nevertheless, it is precisely the principle on which pacemakers and defibrillators operate, and believe me getting FDA approval for these devices is a major undertaking. The size of the pulse supplied is large enough to stimulate the electrical response of the muscle tissue, but small enough so as not to cause tissue damage. You really have to know what you are doing to get the pulse delivered correctly. I have already posted link from Medtronics which you apparently refuse to read. Here it is again: http://www.medtronic.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Medtronic/Website/StageArticle&ConditionName=Bradycardia&Stage=Treatment&Article=brady_art_how_pace_works

Also, looks at these FDA links:

This is a nice overview article of both pacemakers and defibrillators: http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/CONSUMER/CON0279b.html

Then more info on pacemkaers:

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/2001/ANS01100.html

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/pdf/P010015b.pdf

Pacemakers can go wrong, and can than become harmful, in those cases product recalls are issued, such as this one: http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/recalls/recall-071805.html

Charles 08:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

But that has nothing to do with this article. This article is about transferring power wirelessly to electrical devices. I've said this a million times, and I'll say it a bunch more so you get the point. The only reason bionic implants should be in this article is because power is transferred to some of those implants wirelessly, (instead of a wire going through the skin or using permanent batteries). The artificial heart and (at least a few) pacemakers and internal defibrillators are powered or recharged wirelessly. This energy transfer is always through induction, not conduction. — Omegatron 20:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Power Levels

The power levels for External Defibrillators are much higher and the voltages much higher than for implantable devices. That is why paramedics yell "CLEAR!" before delivering the pulse (have you watched any ER TV shows?). The high voltage penetrates the high resistance of the skin using conductive pads, and deliver 150 Joules (for adults) of electric current passed directly through the chest cavity.

Here is an FDA article on one model (for children) which presents some numbers (50 Joules for children versus 150 Joules for adults):

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/2001/ANS01082.html Charles 09:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

That has nothing to do with this article. This article is about transferring power wirelessly to electrical devices. — Omegatron 20:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Circuit Diagram

Perhaps this will convince you, here is an electrical circuit diagram from the Wikipedia article on Defibrillator#Design.

File:Defib.JPG

A circuit diagram showing the simplest (non-electronically controlled) defibrillator design, depending on the inductor ( damping ), producing a Lown, Edmark or Gurvich Waveform

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cfrjlr (talk • contribs) 09:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

That has nothing to do with this article. This article is about transferring power wirelessly to electrical devices. — Omegatron 20:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. So the best thing would be not to make any mention of pacemakers or difibrillators at all since they do not fit within the criteria you have defined.Charles

Disputed?

Is the article accuracy still disputed? The only contentious point I see now is the Tesla stuff. — Omegatron 02:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it looks pretty good to me now Charles 02:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Directed energy weapons

Can someone please explain what this has to do with this article? This article is about wireless energy transfer. Like, wireless replacements for telephone poles and power cords. It's not about shooting things with laser beams to destroy them or sending electrical currents through people to restart their hearts. — Omegatron 20:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

You were the first one to mention weapons, the bit about UV lasers to ionize airCharles 00:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

That's not an example of a power transmission device, though; it's just an example of a conductive path through the air. I don't know if anyone's actually using it to power things remotely. — Omegatron 19:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Short distance wireless energy transfer

I didn't add anything to the article itself because it might come off as spam—this is just a heads-up. I just read in Popular Science (March 2007) that Pennsylvania-based Powercast is (supposedly) developing wireless "power strips" to debut this year. This is one of the most concrete announcement I've read about in the media wireless energy transfer.--gwc 18:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Powercast is already in the article. It's just low-power RF from what I have read. Like a trickle charger with lots of wasted radiated power. — Omegatron 19:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Right to fork

Notice: A dispute has arisen between GLPeterson and Omegatron regarding the scope of the article "Wireless energy transfer." Omegatron maintains the article should include only information about systems for wireless power transmission. GLPeterson maintains that in addition to wireless power transmission the article should include information on systems for wireless communications, remote sensing, and also about systems which combine two or more of these into a single system. In order to press forward with development of the more inclusive article GLPeterson has invoked his Right to Fork (see http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?RightToFork ) and started a new article titled “Wireless energy transmission.” Omegatron has repeatedly vandalized this new article by replacing the text with a redirect to “Wireless energy transfer.” Best regards, GPeterson 18:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

We already have discrete articles about Wireless energy transfer, Wireless communication, and Remote sensing. If you'd like to merge them, you can propose that, but you'll find very little support. Wikipedia:Disambiguation explains how articles are divided up when they have similar names or similar concepts.

There is no Right to Fork on Wikipedia. Forking an article because you disagree about its scope is expressly forbidden, in fact. See Wikipedia:Content fork.

You can, of course, take all of the content from these articles and publish your own document off-site that combines them. — Omegatron 18:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Ώtron,

There is no Right to Fork on Wikipedia.

Pardon me.

You can, of course, take all of the content from these articles and publish your own document off-site that combines them.

Let me see if I have this right. An article titled "Wireless energy transmission" discussing wireless systems that combine wireless communications (including remote control), remote sensing and power transmission, etc. is expressly forbidden on Wikipedia? GPeterson 20:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

If those articles already exist? Yes. You'd have to merge them. Please read Wikipedia:Content fork; it is all explained there. — Omegatron 18:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

There is no Wikipedia article discussing wireless systems that combine broadcasting, wireless telecommunications (including remote control and monitoring), remote sensing, electrical power transmission, and other features into a single wireless system. This is the topic of the article “Wireless energy transmission.” This being the case, why do you keep vandalizing it? The article in its present form is not a fork, in spite of your arbitrary and unjustified designation of it as such. It is an original article on a subject that is not addressed by Wikipedia. If you truly feel it is a POV fork then you are welcome to nominate it for deletion. Any other action is entirely inappropriate. Most sincerely, GPeterson 19:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Why beat your head against the wall? There are other general-reference wikis of moderate size that would welcome your well-intentioned contributions: Wikinfo and Wikiknowledge.[6]-69.87.204.228 12:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Communications

Please stop adding stuff to this article about communications. It's the wrong article, as explained above many times. — Omegatron 20:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Powercast

It's a newspaper article, so the science is probably garbage, but here's a more detailed description:

[7] — Omegatron 21:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Tesla Effect

This is being brought up again. This "term" was deleted as a separate article, and it's now being resurrected here - WTF?? Bert 05:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't have been deleted as a separate article. When did that happen?
I'm starting to feel like all additions about Tesla to this article just be reverted, until proponents can produce good references and plausible connections to real-life technology. — Omegatron 15:31, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Y-trcity

Read Important!!!

Actually, is is being called WiTricity.-69.87.204.228 12:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok. coudn't find any other references so didn't know preper name. DC

Another company that makes use of this technology is Powermat partnered with the OEM company Teknion to embedd the technology into various surfaces. Press Release--Powermatassistant (talk) 15:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

rectangular waveform

"If resonant coupling is used, where inductors are tuned to a mutual frequency and the input current is modified from a sinusoidal into a rectangular waveform, significant power may be transmitted over a range of many meters."

This reference to "rectangular waveform" sounds wrong to me. I'll delete it. If you know that it really belongs, please word it accurately, and include a reference.-69.87.204.228 12:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

deleting patents because it is a list

I don't see the reason to list patents, other than to promote them and those that filed or own them. Since Wikipedia is not a venue for such promotion, I've removed them for the second time. --Ronz (talk) 00:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The patents section has repeatedly appeared and disappeared today. I too fail to see the point to this section. It doesn't make useful further reading, it doesn't expand upon the article material, they're not being used as references, and there's no particular criterion for the list. And for example's sake, you see no such lists of patents in articles on other inventions, such as Television, Radio, Vacuum tube, Plastic, Computer, although patents are occasionally linked as specific references. Therefore I see no reason to retain this list. Comments? Oli Filth^(talk) 23:28, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

For recent precedent, see e.g. Talk:Telluric_current#List_of_patents; it was deemed that there was very little purpose in such a list, and it was removed. Oli Filth^(talk) 23:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Tesla invented wireless electricity, he also invented rontgen and he invented radio. It would be a miracle for anyone else to invent wireless electricity without the use of either radio or microwaves don't you think? Tesla's specific patents that deal specifically with Wireless energy transfer really do have something to do with the topic. Honestly! While you perhaps have been intentionally poorly informed it doesn't make for a good excuse to decide other people should be unable to learn about it.

As Wardenclyffe Tower was a device capable of wireless energy transfer and Wardenclyffe Tower can have it's own wikipedia page then the specific Tesla patents dealing with wireless energy transfer can also go on the wireless energy transfer article. Sure! Just look how I put them back. haha

Here, this is more fun then the patents.[[8]], [[9]]

Gdewilde (talk) 00:47, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I've removed them as off topic and suggest they be added to List of Tesla patents if they're not already there. There's no need to duplicate the list. --Ronz (talk) 01:38, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

All references to Nicola Tesla who invented the technology have been removed from the article This is the worse motivation to delete what little remains.

Read the talk page, there is plenty of Tesla hate disclaimer for this. Gdewilde (talk) 09:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

do not delete the history

I have restored the history section. I know there are words in it and that it has a lot of lines. Gdewilde (talk) 09:23, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Intel

Some reference to Intel's involvement should probably be added. 70.140.104.143 (talk) 02:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Laser - moved to talk for discussion

Can we find some sources for this? I think the very strong pov needs to be very well-sourced to be kept as is:

As compared to the drawbacks listed above, there are also a few unique advantages of Laser based energy transfer that outweigh the disadvantages.
Those are as follows:

collimated monochromatic wavefront propagation allows narrow beam cross-section area for energy confinement over large ranges.

compact size of solid state lasers-photovoltaics allows ease of integration into products with small form factors.

ability to control radio-frequency interference to existing communication devices i.e. wi-fi and cell phones.

control of Wireless Energy Access, instead of omnidirectional transfer where there can be no authentication before transfer.

These allow laser-based Wireless Energy Transfer concept to compete with RF or inductive methods.

The Laser "powerbeaming" technology has been mostly explored in military weapons (in Directed-energy_weapons^[1] ^[2]) and aerospace Laser_propulsion ^[3] ^[4] applications and is now being developed for commercial Low-Power applications. Wireless energy transfer system using laser for consumer space has to meet critical Laser safety requirements standardized under IEC 60825.

--Ronz (talk) 21:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Here are a few sources on topics relating to Lasers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction#Propagation_of_a_laser_beam (on how Laser beam propagation is much less affected by diffraction limits)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherence_(physics)#Quantum_coherence_and_the_range_limitation_problem (on how spatial and spectral coherence characteristics of Lasers allows better distance-to-power capabilities)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk (on how most fundamentally wavelength dictates the size of a disk with distance)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_diode#Applications_of_laser_diodes (on how the laser sources are utilized in various industries and their sizes are reducing for better integration)

(63.146.69.17 (talk) 21:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC))

Some of the papers by Geoffrey A Landis at NASA on Solar Power Satellites and transferring power wirelessly from Space using Laser Power.

http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/papers.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.146.69.17 (talk) 21:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

(63.146.69.17 (talk) 21:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC))

NASA's Space elevator need wireless power to be beamed to it, so that it can climb a tether.

(63.146.69.17 (talk) 22:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC))

Can we insert the Laser based Wireless power transfer into the main article? Conventionally, Laser was not a sources considered for any communication or propulsion system as there were no sources that could generate coherent energy. But, since stimulated emission mechanism can achieve a wavefront where all the points are tightly coupled in phase, it is natural that quite high efficiency and safe systems can developed using the Laser sources. Also, Laser being mostly sub-micron waves they can be reflected using mirrors to achieve a redirection of the beam.

(63.146.69.17 (talk) 19:33, 13 October 2008 (UTC))

I've created Talk:Wireless_energy_transfer/Laser to work on a rewrite. Given the problems we've had with this material, I think it better to work on this subpage.

In addition to the lack of sources, I'm concerned that the first sentence is original research, "As compared to the drawbacks listed above, there are also a few unique advantages of Laser based energy transfer that outweigh the disadvantages." I've edited it so it's not a distraction while we source the bullets. If we can source the information that I've removed, then we can add it back. --Ronz (talk) 20:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Ronz, Thanks so much for your quite helpful action of creating a separate section. Could you please help me understand what you mean by original research and how you want it worded? I am definitely interested in sourcing and referencing all the material in the most appropriate way. It would be indeed helpful to have guidance to proceed in the right direction. Specifically, what are the valid type of references that will be widely accepted? (63.146.69.17 (talk) 21:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC))

Glad I can help. Sorry that I didn't explain. I was referring to the policy WP:OR. I reworded the sentence because without a source, it's probably original research.

See WP:V and WP:RS for information how to verify information and what are considered proper sources. --Ronz (talk) 21:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what this is

collimated monochromatic wavefront propagation allows narrow beam cross-section area for energy confinement over large ranges.

Propagating Electromagnetic energy is generally a far-field radiation from a source that has accelerated electrons (or any charges that are being accelerated).

The form of Electromagnetic radiation propagating in free-space is such that there is no electric or magnetic field component in the direction of propagation and that's why they are termed as TEM waves.

The source has a lot to do with the characteristics of the propagating EM energy. Since, the source is emitting a wave there is fluctuation of electric and magnetic field strength across the face of the emitting surface. If the source aperture is quite large as compared to the wavelength emitted the energy is limited to a narrow area or if considering a single dimension then to a narrow beamwidth. For microwave or radiowaves the antenna/emitter designs have to be large to get a narrow beam that does not spread much as the wavelengths are in meters and centimeters. However, for Lasers as the wavelengths are smaller than source material dimensions there is no need for special antennas to produce a narrow beam.

In addition to this since the radiation from a Laser source is produced using stimulated emission the photons tend to be phase locked to a large extent. The phase being correlated between various points on the emitted wavefront and also being correlated between successive instantaneous wavefronts leads to a Coherent beam that diverges very little with propagating distance. The typical example of this is a Laser pointer that does as well from a meter as from 20 meters. (63.146.69.17 (talk) 01:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Ronz, I looked at the WP:OR policy and my potential edits are no where close to unpublished. Actually, this whole area is so well understood that it is hard to find any specific references as there are journals over journal papers that have published such technical details as outlined my original write-up for Lasers. Could you please help me identify what are the best type of resources that I could link to avoid being classified as OR etc. Thanks. (63.146.69.17 (talk) 01:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

The issue isn't whether or not it has been published, but that we can verify it has been published in reliable sources that we identify. I've tagged the facts in the temporary page that we need to verify. Sadly, it's just about everything. However, we don't have to use different sources for each. One independent secondary or tertiary source would work. --Ronz (talk) 01:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

References

^ [1]
^ [2]
^ [3]
^ [http:http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/051024_spaceelevator_challenge.html]

WiTricity propaganda

I have the impression witricity stock owners are using Wikipedia as an advertisement tool. There is far too much volume about this populating a number of articles, including this. We must at least reduce the size dedicated to it. There is far too much strange claims about it, like that it uses complex near-field hand-waving evanescent-logic effects, and that is uses just the magnetic waves instead of the electric. We must cut that out. I find it ludicrous that the 2007 "scientific breakthrough" shares the same list as Maxwell and Tesla. -- NIC1138 (talk) 04:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Resonant Induction reorganize

Why does the "Resonant Induction" subsection begin with "In 2006, "? Two long paragraphs about 21st century research later, we find out that, oh wait, this technology has been in applications like artificial hearts since the 1960s. The first paragraph of this section should be about when the principle of resonant induction was developed and first publicly applied, and the second paragraph should be about theory, and the third about applications and modern developments. On that note, the two paragraphs on engineering developments in the last five years should definitely be relegated to a separate article - the basic principle is what's being discussed here. 68.255.27.73 (talk) 12:42, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

(Edit) Okay, so I flipped sections myself because I couldn't stand looking at it, but I had to read again why those 2006-2007 paragraphs were in there. The first one seems to be an innocently naive look at a real efficiency the problem, but the second is based on a stupid article by a stupid reporter from physicsworld (for an example of this guy's stupidity, see his ignorant article on the "physics embargo" [10] in which he decries a culture of science where new hypotheses from NASA are discussed internally before being reported to the mass media - maybe it's so they don't say stupid, hasty, unresearched stuff like the reporter does). So I commented it out.

The 2006 paragraph, however, is still underinformed - in its place needs to be 1. Why mid-field transfer is not widely-marketed for use (I presume it's due to efficiency), 2. What technical achievement is necessary to make it viable in an everday market (and where the technology would be useful, besides in mass transit and implants), and 3. A brief mention (with lots of citations for cross-check) of what research is being done, and how it's still done today. 68.255.27.73 (talk) 13:04, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

(More stuff) The "Low Power" subsection of "Far Field" wireless transmission seems to describe mid-field devices, and not in a very relevant manner either (it lists two emerging companies, neither of which seem relevant compared to, say, the 50-year-old wireless artificial heart devices). So a comment-out. 68.255.27.73 (talk) 13:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Dear user from 68.255.27.73, could you please help the WET article by providing more references to the resonant induction technologies use in the past. One of the claims of WiTricity is that they use evanescent wave coupling which is safe and specific. Only when a resonant object gets closer to the source that the energy transfer begins, else the transfer of energy is virtual because all the energy is not coupled and retained in the evanescent field which is physically hidden in nature as it is not propagating any significant distance. It would be very enlightening to know why evanescent phenomenon is not considered as a significant step forward in the science of induction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.97.188 (talk) 02:29, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Missing Source

The link for the POINT-TO-POINT WIRELESS POWER TRANSPORTATION IN REUNION ISLAND paper is dead. Does anyone have a live link? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.175.81 (talk) 18:37, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

electrical energy transfer efficiency of wire

This article gives the achieved electrical energy transfer efficiency figures for wireless as up to 75%. The article does not compare this efficiency to that achieved with copper or other metal wire. I think it would improve the article if someone can provide a source for this additional information. Thank you.206.109.195.126 (talk) 19:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

References section

Hello,

The current Wireless energy transfer#References section is a bunch of "references" currently uncited by the article body, and distinct from the actual cited references in the Wireless energy transfer#Notes section. I'm inclined to remove it, unless someone can identify how these are references for specific points in the article (in which case they should use inline <ref> tags). Oli Filth^{(talk|contribs)} 15:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

TESLA EFFECT IMAGE

The 'Tesla Effect' image that appears in the "Electrical Conduction" section has to be rotated 90deg clockwise.GPeterson (talk) 15:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Longitudinal waves?

When one reads this article one gets the idea that there exist such a phenomena such as longitudinal electromagnetic waves. I have seldom seen a better example of why wikipedia is NOT to be used as a good source for facts... Please remove this nonsense. Mossig (talk) 19:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Dear Mossig, Your concerns are quite well appreciated. When writing in the section the author of the section has not even mentioned good references.

However, it also looks like you are missing certain details that may not be totally off the whack. The paragraph mentions electro-static field and not an EM field. Remember it is not necessary to have a propagating EM field to achieve wireless energy transfer. it is also equally likely that a long-range static field could be coupled to devices that may be resonant. In such cases longitudinal component coupling instead of transverse waves is possible. This is some work by Tesla and you are in your rights from the knowledge in books to reject it. But, remember if Tesla's knowledge was in the books people might have achived Wireless power long time ago. (Doylespace (talk) 07:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC))

The usual claims connected to the concept "longitudinal waves" are different from electrostatics. The concept is usually connected to some physical propertiy of electromagnetic fields that Maxwell should have missed in his equations, even though all electromagnetic phenomena up to date, including all of Teslas experiments, can be explained by these equations. (A field stops being static if you change the field strength or the geometries involved. Thus you can not couple energy by static fields.) Mossig (talk) 18:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Dear Mossig, please read textbooks on Waveguide theory both metallic RF waveguides and Optical waveguides. Make sure you concentrate on the electric and magnetic field components in the direction of propagation. Following this if you can also read and understand the theory of evanescent waves you will be better served. Also, electrostatics is way to transfer energy, please perform the friction-comb and paper pieces experiement to make sure there are no waves when paper pieces fly to the comb under an induced electric field against the force of gravity. You can also similarly place two opposite magnetic poles next to each other and try to see how they can generate work without any EM waves being detected.(Doylespace (talk) 07:04, 12 April 2009 (UTC))

The concept "longitudinal waves" is most often proposed to be an hitherto unrecognized part of the plane wave propagation through free space. I am well aware of the fact that we have wave components in all directions in near-field, resonant fields and scattered fields. But this is not what is most commonly assigned the name "longitudinal waves". (And when the paper pieces fly to the comb the pattern of charge is changed, ie. is not static any more. When they reach the comb the amount of charge is changed. Ie. it is not electrostatics any more.) Mossig (talk) 20:04, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Dear Mossig, "I have seldom seen a better example of why wikipedia is NOT to be used as a good source for facts...", please use your full judgement before making comments about the veracity of Wikipedia. To me Wikipedia is one of the best resources available on the web. It is far better than to read through enormous books in libraries that can potentially direct you in wrong directions as there is no "linking" to related topics. (210.212.155.232 (talk) 07:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC))

Please read a scientific textbook at least once - they are full of references. Mossig (talk) 18:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Why is this in in the emerging technologies article?

Emerging implies recent, it's been proven and used since Tesla 99.236.221.124 (talk) 01:09, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Successful Commercial Products

Phillips electronics SonicCare tooth brushes use wireless energy transfer to transfer energy from the base unit to the toothbrush. The base unit is plugged into a normal electrical outlet. There is no metal contact between the base unit and the toothbrush. This has been available for a number of years and is well under $100 US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.155.35.130 (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

A common transformer also has no metallic contact between the windings, and transfers power similarly. Nothing to get excited about by the toothbrush having a removable winding. Edison (talk) 16:36, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

There is a plan for Power Towers in the Sea useing wireless transmission

Heard theres a plan to bulid Sea based POWER TOWERS to use Ocean currents, Solar and Wind Turbines To p;roduce electrical energy. This energy then will be transmitted wireless eioither by Teslas ideas of wireless power transmission or Laser or Microwave! Each POWER TOWER if not located in the territorial waters of a world nation.Would be a Micronation along the lines of the Seasteading project. Buiuklding island nations of steel concrete etc in internatiional waters Then proclaiming them "nations"! Thu the power produced fro such Micronations (Named Nova Tesla Lands after Tesla) could produce energy for themselves and sell the rest to the World .Making a Nova Tesla land the first FULLY sustaianbale cLEAN GREEN producing nation (s) in the world!They (The POWERB TOWERS) would actr as resrach "stands" as well to improve alternative power source (i.e. wind, solar, useing Ocean currents in turbines under the sea) to produce energy! beleive the seasteading group has this idea. Anyone know? Thanks!PomocAndres (talk) 18:22, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Using links

We already have long articles on Nikola Tesla, Wardenclyffe Tower, Mahlon Loomis etc. - we don't need to insert all that material here. It's really irrelevant to the current interest in wireless power transmission, since the "ionized layers" don't actually work like copper wires anyway. to spend 8 kB out of a 50 kB is to grossly over-represent the importance of this dead-end to those interested in the current state of the topic. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:13, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

That's total bollocks. This article isn't on 'the current interest in wireless power transmission' it's about Wireless energy transfer in the round. The material you removed is so very clearly notable.Rememberway (talk) 17:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

And your removal of a section because it 'spend 8 kB out of a 50 kB' is utter crap as well. In the Wikipedia the article size limits are based on readable prose, and you can have up to 50K of that. This article only had 15k of readable prose and you removed almost half of it, under the most dubious rationalisation I have ever seen in the Wikipedia, ever.Rememberway (talk) 17:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, if this shit carries on I intend to get you banned. If an anonymous IP had done this to an article they would have been well on their way to being banned, and I don't see that we should make an exception with you.Rememberway (talk) 17:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

You are so very far out of line here.Rememberway (talk) 17:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

The Tesla experiments are adequately described in their articles, but they lead to no applications. When we talk about telephones, we don't spend 16% of the article talking about any one dead end. --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:23, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

It's not about percentages, it's about notability. His claims that he could do this are notable. We do cover research that failed all the time. The article at the moment is too short if anything, and you're brutally pruning it.

Still at least you're not just going through the wikipedia and removing everything about Nikolai Tesla that isn't on his own page. Oh wait, yes you are.Rememberway (talk) 17:28, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Mahlon Loomis made remarkable notable claims at the time, but it doesn't serve a modern reader well to explain his ideas at length in an article about radio. The place to talk about Loomis' ideas and claims at length is in that article. Dead-end ideas should only be expounded on at length if they significantly absorbed many persons in the field. Anyone curious about Tesla's ideas can click on the link and follow up instantly. those with a more general interest can get a more concise overview of the topic. This is why we have separate articles for separate topics. Terabytes of Wikistorage are relatively cheap, but the reader's time is short and valuable. --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:47, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Moved the Tesla "electrical conduction" part to Wardenclyffe Tower, though now it needs editing for redundancy. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:40, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I've invested the last 20+ years of my life researching the Tesla wireless system and a portion of last few years helping to whip this article into shape. Just at the point where it is coming into alignment this has to happen. It makes me feel physically ill to see the article being mangled. What can I do to help get this guy banned? GaryPeterson (talk) 23:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I completely disagree with Wtshymanski's editing, but we could go subarticle in this section, and call it something like 'World power system' or something and point it to Wardenclyffe Tower or a new article.Rememberway (talk) 20:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Upon further reflection I think the recent round of edits are a good thing. I agree with the idea of a new article and have started a Draft titled User:GaryPeterson/World Wireless System. It needs a few more hours of work before publication.GaryPeterson (talk) 14:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

<outdent> "World Wireless System" would naturally seem to be an extension of the existing Wardenclyffe Tower, although I suppose the reverse might make even more sense. What Tesla thought he could do has nothing to do with charging a laptop or builidng a solar power satellite, and logically is distinct from the contents of this article.

What I've never understood is the mathematics of it all... Tesla was reputed to be a much better mathemetician and had a much stronger physical intuition that many of his peers. Every time I read about Wardenclyffe it sounds a bit like dipping both wires from a wall plug in one of a swimming pool and expecting to light a bulb floating at the other end; if you could get enough gradient, it would "work" in a way, but the losses and inefficiency would be horrendous. How did Tesla prevent everything from shorting out before any energy had left the tower at all? If you ionized enough air to reach up into the sky a few miles, surely the cloud of ionization would have covered a big part of Long Island. Watching videos of Tesla coils operating, the big sparks hit the ground by the base of the coil a lot more often than they reach up many times the length of the coil.

This is off-topic for this article and talk page, though an explanation of Tesla's physics would be an excellent addition to a World Wireless article. What passes for explanations seems to me like mysticisim, not physics; more V=IR, and less "Om Mani Padme Hum", please. --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Tesla figured this out by experimentation. Here are a couple of links to get you started down the road of understanding: [11] and [12].

I'll do my best over the coming days to address the physics.

Regards,
Gary
GaryPeterson (talk) 20:47, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

That's a bunch of blogs and what appears to be testimony in court. I was hoping for something more like an engineering textbook presentation; I don't have the time to read through what Bert thought Phil said about what Hank heard at Joe's party. --Wtshymanski (talk) 22:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I'll give you a copy of the book Nikola Tesla On His Work With Alternating Currents and Their Application to Wireless Telegraphy, Telephony and Transmission of Power for your reading, (see [13]). Also, you should read the following papers: "Nikola Tesla and the Diameter of the Earth: A Discussion of One of the Many Modes of Operation of the Wardenclyffe Tower," K. L. Corum and J. F. Corum, Ph.D. 1996: "Nikola Tesla, Lightning Observations, and Stationary Waves," K. L. Corum and J. F. Corum, Ph.D. 1994; "Atmospheric Fields, Tesla's Receivers and Regenerative Detectors," K. L. Corum, J. F. Corum, Ph.D., and A. H. Aidinejad, Ph.D. 1994 and, "Spherical Transmission Lines and Global Propagation, An Analysis of Tesla's Experimentally Determined Propagation Model," K. L. Corum, J. F. Corum, Ph.D., and J. F. X. Daum, Ph.D. 1987. 1986.
GaryPeterson (talk) 00:29, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

That sure is a lot of "Corum and Corum." What was the reliable source (respected refereed journal) in which they published? Edison (talk) 00:39, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

James F. Corum, Ph.D., is a senior member of the IEEE and is listed in Who's Who in Engineering, Leading Consultants in High Technology, American Men and Women of Science, and more than a dozen other professional and biographical dictionaries in the US and Europe. Formerly a Senior Scientist at Battelle (Columbus, OH), he is now Chief Scientist at the Institute for Software Research, Inc. Other positions include time spent as Chief Scientist at Science Applications Research Associates (Huntington Beach, CA), and 17 years as a tenured college professor. Dr. Corum is a member of the American Geophysical Union, American Association of Physics Teachers, American Association for the Advancement of Science, Sigma Xi, and a Life Member of the Quarter Century Wireless Association. He is also a former Chairman of the West Virginia Subsection of the IEEE, a former Secretary of the DARPA National Panel of Radar Experts on Ultra-Wideband Radar, and was cited by the U.S. Office of The Secretary of Defense as "A National Treasure." Additionally, Dr. Corum has a broad range of professional experience in Relativistic Electrodynamics, General Relativity, Applied Electromagnetics, Antennas, High-Voltage RF Engineering, and Radio Wave Propagation from 7 Hz. (Schumann Resonances) through 18 GHz. (Radio Astronomy). He is the inventor of Contrawound Toroidal Helix Antenna technology and was an invited guest of the USSR Academy of Sciences in Moscow. His RF research has been recognized by prestigious scientific organizations and professional societies around the world, and his many achievements include numerous awards and the publication of 100 technical papers, 7 books, and 5 patents.

Dr. James F. Corum: Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering from The Ohio State University (1974), MSEE from Ohio State (1967), and BSEE from Lowell Technological Institute (1965).

Dr. Corum taught and conducted research in electromagnetics, antennas, RF telecommunications, astrophysics (radio astronomy), mathematics (tensors and differential geometry) and relativistic electrodynamics for 17 years in academia before turning to private industry. He was an Electronic Engineer for the National Security Agency and a Researcher at the Ohio State Radio Observatory. He was a tenured Associate Professor on the faculty at West Virginia University (where he was the principal thesis advisor to a dozen Masters and Ph.D. candidates), a Professor at The Ohio Institute of Technology, and a Senior Scientist at the Battelle Institute in Columbus, Ohio. He served as Chief Scientist at Scientific Applications and Research Associates, Inc., in Huntington Beach, CA, and as the Chief Scientist for the Institute for Software Research, in Fairmont, WV. Currently, he is Chief Technical Officer for CPG Technologies. Collectively, he has received over a dozen awards for excellence in teaching and outstanding research from these institutions.

Dr. Corum is a Senior Member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (belonging to the Antennas and Propagation Society, the Professional Group on Microwave Theory and Techniques, the Broadcast Engineering Society, the Professional Group on Engineering Education, and the Plasma Science Society). He was Chairman of the Upper Monongahelia Subsection of the IEEE and Board Member of the Pittsburgh Section of the IEEE. He is a member of the American Geophysical Union, the American Association of Physics Teachers, the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, the American Society for Engineering Education, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the Research Society of North America (Sigma Xi). He is a Life Member of both the American Radio Relay League and the Quarter-Century Wireless Association. He is listed in Who's Who in Engineering, Who's Who in American Education, Leading Consultants in High Technology, Who's Who of American Inventors, Who's Who in Science and Engineering, American Men and Women of Science, and more than a dozen other professional and biographical dictionaries.

Dr. Corum has published over 100 notes and technical papers (in such prestigious magazines as the Journal of Mathematical Physics, the Proceedings of the IEEE, Soviet Physics Uspekhi, IEEE Spectrum, Microwave Systems News, Transactions of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, International Journal of Theoretical Physics, etc.), several monographs, 5 patents (he invented the contra-wound toroidal helix antenna technology), and has contributed chapters to seven books. His primary publications concern relativistic rotation and nonsymmetric affine connections in nonholonomic space geometries. Additionally, he is internationally recognized as a science historian (serving as an advisor and board member for several scientific historical societies), and he has recently completed a compendium of translations of 100 papers on differentiable manifolds and the early asymmetric unified field theories of Einstein, Schouten, Cartan and Schrödinger.

Dr. Corum was invited as a guest of the Russian Academy of Sciences to the Institute of High Temperatures in Moscow, and his work on Ball Lightning and High Voltage Pulsed RF Sources has appeared in the Soviet literature. He has lectured at Berkeley, Imperial College (London), The Ohio State University, and Belgrade University. He has consulted for private industry and for DARPA, DoD, DIA, IDA, NRO, CIA, AFOSR, NEODTC, ARO, NASA, NIOSH, DOE and other governmental agencies.

He was cited as a "National Treasure" by The Office of the US Secretary of Defense for his work on the DARPA National Panel of Radar Experts on Ultra-WideBand Radar and Phenomenology. His engineering practice has taken him around the globe, from Moscow, Russia to Kwajelein Atoll. The recipient of many research and teaching awards, his electromagnetic research has been recognized by prestigious scientific organizations and professional societies around the world.

GaryPeterson (talk) 17:14, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Any relation to this James Corum ? --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:13, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Of course you would have to provide me with a shipping address. . . .
GaryPeterson (talk) 20:08, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Offer withdrawn, 2010-11-19. The book Nikola Tesla On His Work With Alternating Currents and Their Application to Wireless Telegraphy, Telephony and Transmission of Power is available form your local public library through ILL.GaryPeterson (talk) 21:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll get right on that if I ever need to know anything about Tesla.

That is a sensible course of action. -- GaryPeterson (talk) 17:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

However, as you may have noticed from your twenty years of study of the man's works, there doesn't seem to be anything replicable about his results.

All of the apparatus that I have replicated so far, including small scale demonstration models of the Tesla wireless system, work exactly as he says they do. You have been misinformed. -- GaryPeterson (talk) 17:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

This article would seem to me more useful as a comprehensive overview of the current state of the art, with perhaps a brief nod to history and poor mad Tesla and his lighting bolts.

The story that Tesla died pennyless is apocryphal. It appears he was hiding his money from the IRS. As for Tesla's mental condition, he may have been a high-functioning autistic savant; he may have had Aspergers. -- GaryPeterson (talk) 17:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

It was possibly humane of J. P. Morgan to withdraw his money from the Wardenclyffe project when he did, he must have noticed lots of grandiose promises and no results early on. Imagine the shame of failure had the project carried on.--Wtshymanski (talk) 22:20, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. . . . -- GaryPeterson (talk) 17:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Experimental demonstration in the Houston Street laboratory, before G.D. Seeley, Examiner in Chief, U.S. Patent Office, January 23, 1898, of the practicability of transmission of electrical energy in industrial amounts by the method and apparatus described in U.S. Patents No. 645,576 and No. 649,621. Applications filed September 2, 1897.

Tesla

This is a diagram representing the arrangement of apparatus as in a practical experiment which I performed before G.D. Seeley, Examiner in Chief, U.S. Patent Office, on the 23rd of January, 1898. This experiment illustrates a great departure I had made a little prior to that date. Up to the end of 1896, I had been developing the wireless system along the lines set forth in my lecture which is in the Martin book, particularly in the chapter on Electrical Resonance, pages 340-349. As I stated then, if that plan of mine was practicable, distance meant absolutely nothing; distance merely came into consideration when you flashed rays, electro-magnetic or Hertzian waves, or some agency of that kind. By the plan I had conceived, if it was realizable, it was just as easy to telegraph or telephone across the entire globe as it is across this room. . . .

I took a tube 50 feet long, in which I established conditions such as would exist in the atmosphere at a height of about 4 1/2 miles, a height which could be reached in a commercial enterprise, because we have mountains that are 5 miles high; and, furthermore, in the mountainous regions we have often great water power, so that the project of transmitting it, if the plan was rational, would be practicable. . . .

Was that a glass tube?

Tesla

Yes, 2 or 3 inches in diameter, and joined with rubber. Then there was a pipe that led to the pump, and I had a manometer to show accurately the pressure in the tube. I calculated it so that it corresponded to a definite height of about 5 miles. Because I had mentioned in my patent 5 miles, I did not want to retract that statement. It was simply to show that this was practicable. [Nikola Tesla On His Work With Alternating Currents and Their Application to Wireless Telegraphy, Telephony and Transmission of Power pp. 125-128.] -- GaryPeterson (talk) 15:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryPeterson (talk • contribs) 01:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't expect to have to check a source, and then find that the source doesn't support the article text. I'm really unimpressed when that happens, and I was even more unimpressed when you reverted it without sourcing it. Do not ever do that again.Rememberway (talk) 02:06, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Back off buddy, I pressed the Save Page button by mistake.GaryPeterson (talk) 02:15, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Experimental demonstration in the Houston Street laboratory, before G.D. Seeley, Examiner in Chief, U.S. Patent Office, January 23, 1898, of the practicability of transmission of electrical energy in industrial amounts by the method and apparatus described in U.S. Patents No. 645,576 and No. 649,621. Applications filed September 2, 1897.

Tesla

This is a diagram representing the arrangement of apparatus as in a practical experiment which I performed before G.D. Seeley, Examiner in Chief, U.S. Patent Office, on the 23rd of January, 1898. This experiment illustrates a great departure I had made a little prior to that date. Up to the end of 1896, I had been developing the wireless system along the lines set forth in my lecture which is in the Martin book, particularly in the chapter on Electrical Resonance, pages 340-349. As I stated then, if that plan of mine was practicable, distance meant absolutely nothing; distance merely came into consideration when you flashed rays, electro-magnetic or Hertzian waves, or some agency of that kind. By the plan I had conceived, if it was realizable, it was just as easy to telegraph or telephone across the entire globe as it is across this room.

Developing along these lines, my effort was first to have the biggest possible capacity because I had shown that, theoretically, the effect would be dependent upon the quantity of electricity displaced. The quantity of electricity displaced is proportionate to the capacity. Therefore, in order to realize my scheme, it seemed necessary to employ the biggest possible capacities that could be practically constructed; that was my idea at the beginning.

But I knew also that even with a big capacity, if I connected it to the ground, through a generator, there still would be a frequency high enough to cause a considerable loss of energy in the production of the Hertz or electromagnetic waves; consequently, I had to employ also a very large inductance. Thus, my system was based on the proposition that I employ a very large inductance and a very large capacity and, furthermore, that I raise the potential of the source so high, by resonance, as to displace a quantity of electricity big enough to affect sensibly not only the near portions of the globe, a distance of 100 miles or so, but the whole globe.

In [my] Houston Street laboratory, I had already satisfied myself that it could be done. But in experimenting with these high potential discharges which I was always producing, I discovered a wonderful thing. I found, namely, that the air, which had been behaving before like an insulator, suddenly became like a conductor; that is, when subjected to these great electrical stresses, it broke down and I obtained discharges which were not accountable for by the theory that the air was an insulator. When I calculated the effects, I concluded that this must be due to the potential gradient at a distance from the electrified body, and subsequently I came to the conviction that it would be ultimately possible, without any elevated antenna -- with very small elevation -- to break down the upper stratum of the air and transmit the current by conduction.

Having discovered that, I established conditions under which I might operate in putting up a practical commercial plant. When the matter came up in the patents before the Examiner, I arranged this experiment for him in my Houston Street laboratory.

I took a tube 50 feet long, in which I established conditions such as would exist in the atmosphere at a height of about 4 1/2 miles, a height which could be reached in a commercial enterprise, because we have mountains that are 5 miles high; and, furthermore, in the mountainous regions we have often great water power, so that the project of transmitting it, if the plan was rational, would be practicable.

Then, on the basis of the results I had already obtained, I established those conditions, practically, in my laboratory.

I used that coil which is shown in my patent application of September 2, 1897 (Patent No. 645,576 of March 20, 1900), the primary as described, the receiving circuit, and lamps in the secondary transforming circuit, exactly as illustrated there.

And when I turned on the current, I showed that through a stratum of air at a pressure of 135 millimeters, when my four circuits were tuned, several incandescent lamps were lighted.

Counsel

What did you use as the source of energy in your primary transmitting circuit, at the time you demonstrated this apparatus to Examiner Seeley?

Tesla

I used a break, a mechanically rotating break, which was charging a condenser 5,000 times a second, as I described in my patent Number 645,576 of March 20, 1900.

Counsel

What was the voltage that was generated?

Tesla

The voltage was about 4 million volts.

Counsel

You say you used a break, which I understand to be a rotary spark gap. What was the original source of power?

Tesla

The original source of power was an alternator which I employed regularly there, from which I could get about 30 horsepower in ordinary experimentation. It was a machine of a frequency of about 60 cycles.

Counsel

And that was connected in circuit with the condenser and a gap in the well-known way of your oscillators?

Tesla

Yes.

Counsel

Then you got from that, by means of a rotary gap, about 5,000 sparks?

Tesla

Yes, 5,000 per second, and I transferred [these] to a frequency of 200,000 to 250,000 per second. Pardon me for saying, I had arranged for the Examiner to make this demonstration with a high frequency alternator; but just as the work was pressing I tried it and could not get the necessary tension with it, otherwise I would have used the alternator. But in this other way, I could get the 4 million volts I needed; that is the reason why the experiment was made with this kind of apparatus.

Counsel

And you had a wave frequency of what?

Tesla

Between 200,000 and 250,000. That was simply wave frequency; that did not mean anything here because I was transmitting through a conductor. I was not radiating energy into space.

Counsel

Was that a glass tube?

Tesla

Yes, 2 or 3 inches in diameter, and joined with rubber. Then there was a pipe that led to the pump, and I had a manometer to show accurately the pressure in the tube. I calculated it so that it corresponded to a definite height of about 5 miles. Because I had mentioned in my patent 5 miles, I did not want to retract that statement. It was simply to show that this was practicable. -- Nikola Tesla On His Work With Alternating Currents and Their Application to Wireless Telegraphy, Telephony and Transmission of Power pp. 125-128

Through the continuous perfection of these methods and apparatus and the investigation of the actions of these current impulses I have been led to the discovery of certain highly-important useful facts which have hitherto been unknown. Among these and bearing directly upon the subject of my present application are the following: First, that atmospheric or other gases, even under normal pressure, when they are known to behave as perfect insulators, are in a large measure deprived of their dielectric properties by being subjected to the influence of electromotive impulses of the character and magnitude I have referred to and assume conducting and other qualities which have been so far observed only in gases greatly attenuated or heated to a high temperature, and, second, that the conductivity imparted to the air or gases increases very rapidly both with the augmentation of the applied electrical pressure and with the degree of rarefaction, the law in this latter respect being, however, quite different from that heretofore established. . . .

The outer end of the secondary or high-tension coil A was connected to the ground, as illustrated, while the free end was led to a terminal placed in the rarefied air stratum through which the energy was to be transmitted, which was contained in an insulating tube of a length of fifty feet or more, within which a barometric pressure varying from about one hundred and twenty to one hundred and fifty millimeters was maintained by means of a mechanical suction-pump. SYSTEM OF TRANSMISSION OF ELECTRICAL ENERGY, Sept. 2, 1897, U.S. Patent No. 645,576, Mar. 20, 1900.

I took a tube 50 feet long, in which I established conditions such as would exist in the atmosphere at a height of about 4 1/2 miles. . . . And when I turned on the current, I showed that through a stratum of air at a pressure of 135 millimeters, when my four circuits were tuned, several incandescent lamps were lighted. Nikola Tesla On His Work With Alternating Currents and Their Application to Wireless Telegraphy, Telephony and Transmission of Power pp. 126, 127.

The utilization of any conducting properties of the air for purposes of transmission of energy has been hitherto out of the question in the absence of apparatus suitable for meeting the many and difficult requirements, although it has long been known or surmised that atmospheric strata at great altitudes—say fifteen or more miles above sea-level—are, or should be, in a measure, conducting; but assuming even that the indispensable means should have been produced then still a difficulty, which in the present state of the mechanical arts must be considered as insuperable, would remain—namely, that of maintaining terminals at elevations of fifteen miles or more above the level of the sea. Through my discoveries before mentioned and the production of adequate means the necessity of maintaining terminals at such inaccessible altitudes is obviated and a practical method and system of transmission of energy through the natural media is afforded. . . .

As the main requirement in carrying out my invention is to produce currents of an excessively-high potential, this object will be facilitated by using a primary current of very considerable frequency, since the electro-motive force obtainable with a given length of conductor is proportionate to the frequency; but the frequency of the current is in a large measure arbitrary, for if the potential be sufficiently high and if the terminals of the coils be maintained at the proper altitudes the action described will take place, and a current will be transmitted through the elevated air strata, which will encounter little and possibly even less resistance than if conveyed through a copper wire of a practicable size. SYSTEM OF TRANSMISSION OF ELECTRICAL ENERGY, Sept. 2, 1897, U.S. Patent No. 645,576, Mar. 20, 1900.

GaryPeterson (talk) 02:15, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

No, you can't include a claim about 4.5 miles unless you have a reference that he was going to use that particular altitude- that he was going to, in normal operation, ionise the air at that altitude. Even using the pressure isn't the same thing; that's OR.Rememberway (talk) 18:31, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

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[4] [http:http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/051024_spaceelevator_challenge.html]

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