Talk:Wimbledon Manor House

Untitled

Hello Wetman, I've uploaded an image for the lead, but now have seen this page [1] showing a much smaller glorified farmhouse as the seat of Earl Spencer, I expect this is the version which he rebuilt to the grander edifice, I have uploaded, what do you think?  Giano  18:59, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello Giano. The smaller house pictured in the link, is the Spencer house known as Wimbledon Park House. It was not enlarged. The picture you have uploaded of Wimbledon House is not the Spencer house or ever the manor house, it was a victorian villa situated on Parkside and was known as Wimbledon House, which has confused many. The two houses are marked on 19th Century maps.--Roganjosh3 (talk) 05:08, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Manorial rights

"Wimbledon House and park were sold in 1723 with the now largely notional manorial rights,..." - not according to a later Earl Spencer, who in 1864 attempted to enclose most of Wimbledon Common, and whose bill to do so was fought off in a landmark battle by the "villagers", who by then included many lawyers, merchants etc. The Common article has none of this - Wimbledon,_London#19th_century_development is better, which I'll copy around. Johnbod (talk) 14:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Janssen demolition

RE: "The Duke's heirs sold it (the Manor) in 1717 to Sir Theodore Janssen, who paid Colen Campbell and Gould £70 as "overseers" of new works there in 1720, which seems to relate to quite another, more modest house at Wimbledon, built in part with brick from the Elizabethan Wimbledon Manor House; Colen Campbell's Belvedere House facing the entrance gate was later called Janssen House and now houses the Museum of Wimbledon."

This seems to contradict the above: " The old house was soon pulled down by the Duchess,[19] apparently along with any work erected by Janssen"

This from the Museum of Wimbledon site, seems to imply that Belvedere House was Janssen's unfinished Manor House. If so, it could not have been demolished by the Duchess.

"Sir Theodore Janssen, a naturalised Englishman of French origin who became a Member of Parliament and a director of the South Sea Company, bought the manor in 1717. He used bricks from the Elizabethan Manor House to build a smaller one, later known as Belvedere House. The house stood to the west of the church and was designed by the popular architect, Colin Campbell. In 1721 Janssen was implicated in the collapse of the South Sea Company and his estate was confiscated to compensate shareholders. Although he was allowed to keep his newly built house he preferred to live in another, nearer the High Street. Belvedere House was then occupied by William Beaumaurice Rush. It was then enlarged and an extra story added by Sir Ellis Cunliffe in 1782. --Roganjosh3 (talk) 06:38, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

In addition, the Museum of Wimbledon is housed at 22 The Ridgeway. Belvedere House apparently survived Her Grace, the Duchess, but it no longer exists. It was demolished in 1900 (see new link in article for citation).

Edit: It may have been the case that the Duchess finished demolishing the Cecil house after Janssen had started to dismantle it for it's bricks. This would make sense and would account for the various conflicting and seemingly erroneous accounts of an unfinished Janssen house being demolished. Her new house being closer to the Cecil house than Janssen's (Belvedere House), which was on the west (the other side) of St Mary's and if not entirely demolished would have presented an eyesore view from her new house.

Roque's map of 1741 shows Janssen as living on land alongside the present High St, with the Duchess of Marlborough owning or living to the east of that.

I believe some of the terracing of the Cecil house still survives on the west side at the top of Home Park Road, if viewed carefully on Google Earth. Demolishing those terraces would have been a monumental task.--Roganjosh3 (talk) 07:31, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Further research has thrown up a new difficulty. According to Bartlett in his book 'The history and antiquities of the parish of Wimbledon, Surrey'. The Duchess pulled down Janssen's house and built a new one designed by Lord Burlington. This was not to her taste so she had that one pulled down and built a new one to the design of Henry Herbert Earl of Pembroke. There is a possibility that if all the accounts of Janssen's house being in an unfinished state and pulled down by the Duchess are correct, it may be that the Burlington house was not pulled down but is what became Belvedere House as pictured in the article. Comparison of the subtle differences in design detail of both Campbell and Burlington buildings are extremely difficult as they are very similar. Either way, if the design was Campbell or Burlington, they were both important and highly respected architects of there time. Although for the purposes of the article I think it is important to discover which architect was responsible. Until such time as evidence surfaces to the contrary, I suggest the atribution of Campbell be left as it is --Roganjosh3 (talk) 07:45, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

There is a third possibility, that Belvedere House was neither the Janssen (Campbell) house nor the Burlington house, but a house built after both of those two and which was never the manor house. If that is the case, then the pic of/and the Belvedere House attribution as Janssen's house are both incorrect. I suspect that the answer to this may be in the book containing the Duches's letters to her grand-daughter entitled "Letters of a grandmother 1732-1735". Some quotes I have seen from it, are various whingeings she made about the construction phase at Wimbledon. If anyone has access to a copy perhaps they could have a look.--Roganjosh3 (talk) 09:47, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

RE: Drawing of mid 18th Century Belvedere House I posted today on the article. It seems to me that this quite possibly isnt up to the standard of Campbell unless this is the unfinished house. Possibly the later additions in I think 1782 were to the original Campbell design, if so it could possibly pass as a Campbell design. I think it is highly unlikely to be the completed Burlington design for the Duchess. So my best guess is this is either the unfinished Janssen house or a later house built by the Rush family on the site they bought cleared, in 1749. As it stands, it looks like a design any local builder of the time could have cooked up and certainly not the work of a big noise society architect, unless it was lived in not finished as intended.--Roganjosh3 (talk) 09:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Re-title/Move

I propose to retitle/move this article to 'Wimbledon Manor House', for the following reasons:

The Wimbledon manor house was known variously as The Old Rectory, The Parsonage, Wimbledon Palace, Belvedere House, the Janssen House, possibly the Marlborough house, Wimbledon Park House and some contemporary quotes also refer to the manor house as Wimbledon House. However the object of the article it would seem to me is to document the history of the various iterations of the Wimbledon manor house or the house of Wimbledon manor. As such, Wimbledon Manor House would appear to more correctly and more clearly define the object of the article than Wimbledon House. Indeed there has been confusion even on this page, previously, with a posting of an image of a house which was definitely called Wimbledon House but which was never the manor house and was a house situated on Parkside during the 19th Century. The confusion over whether this house was the manor house appears elsewhere on the net as well. By naming the page Wimbledon Manor House, the confusion and non-relatedness over this house will likely be quashed.

So to sum up, as each manor house went by different names during each epoch, a catch-all name which covers all of them and which better reflects the aim of the article and the role of each house, would be, in my opinion, Wimbledon Manor House. Thanks. --Roganjosh3 (talk) 23:08, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

A well-justified move.--Wetman (talk) 19:52, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Agree, albeit belatedly. Gratifying to see such an knowledgeable expansion Giano (talk) 20:50, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks guys--Roganjosh3 (talk) 22:39, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

File:Angie Watts.jpg

The screenshot of the Eastenders character Angie Watts being used in Wimbledon Manor House#The Old Rectory is a non-free image and, therefore, is required to satisfy all 10 criteria of WP:NFCCP. The use of the file currently seems to fail WP:NFCC#1, WP:NFCC#3a, WP:NFCC#8 and WP:NFCC#10c. I have started a discussion about the file at WP:NFCR#File:Angie Watts.jpg. Please post your comments there if you have any. Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 22:07, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Post-1949 demolition and development

This article currently states: "The land on which it and the Marlborough house had stood, remarkably for this area, remains undeveloped and forms part of the sports fields of Ricards Lodge School"

However, on the site of the Spencer Family's 'Wimbledon Park House' a school was built: Park House Middle School. I do not know when it opened [I started there in 1994], but it was closed on 31st August 2002, subsequently demolished, and is now the site of the mentioned sports fields of Ricards Lodge High School.

Location of Park House Middle School: PHMS Location — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:778D:6901:857F:9BF9:9D1A:8A (talk) 13:08, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Location of Park House Middle School Vehicle Entrance: PHMS Vehicle Entrance

Location of Park House Middle School Pedestrian Entrance: PHMS Pedestrian Entrance

This used to be a lay-by with a gate through the fence. The lay-by has been filled in, but the old kerb can be seen in the middle of the wide pavement (sidewalk for any Americans). The short pedestrian barrier at the edge of the pavement was placed in line with the gate to discourage school-children running out of the gate and straight into the road. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:778D:6901:857F:9BF9:9D1A:8A (talk) 13:04, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

References