Talk:William IX, Duke of Aquitaine

Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Cluny

According to the historian Alfred Richard, author of Histoire des comtes de Poitou, Henry's identification as a son of William IX was an error. Henry first appears as a prior of Cluny in an 1100 charter, making him far older than William's children. In addition, Henry is not named among the children of William IX in the chronicle of Saint-Maixent; I can't imagine such a prominent individual would've been overlooked had he in fact been a son of William.

To my knowledge, no early or near-contemporary source mentions any illegitimate children for William IX. That doesn't mean that he didn't have any, it just means none were recognized, or important enough to be mentioned. Henry's mother certainly wasn't William's most famous mistress, Dangereuse, who only took up with William around 1113. Raoul de Faye, who is sometimes listed as a son of Dangereuse and William, was actually Dangereuse's son by her husband. She and William don't seem to have had any children together.

Henry of Poitou was evidently of high birth, as mentioned by the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and the Laud Chronicle. But he doesn't seem to have been a son of William IX; indeed, he was closer to William's age in all probability. Missi 00:48, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

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At what date can William have sent troops to fight for Philip I against William the Conqueror? User:Andrew Dalby 18:35, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

No kidding! I've removed that sentence. Could his father have done that? (He died 1086.) --Michael K. Smith 02:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: dating of Pos de chantar

Why have the lines, "My friends were Joy and Chivalry/But I from both must parted be" been removed? I didn't understand the edit summary. I was basing it upon Eleanor of Aquitaine (Marion Meade) in which she says, "In those last years, William determined to change his ways. Convinced that he must submit to God's will, he regretfully vowed to abandon his love of debauchery. My friends were Joy and Chivalry, he wrote, But I from both must parted be." Please could you explain properly here? Thanks. Michaelsanders 11:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The lines Meade quotes (De proez'e de joi fui,/Mais ara partem ambedui) are taken from the song, Pos de chantar m'es pres talenz, already mentioned and quoted in the article. Meade is wrong in dating it to the end of William's life: it's clear from the words that he is concerned about leaving his lands to a son who is clearly still a minor. Given the birth-date of William X, this places the song more probably at the time of his first excommunication, and worries about losing his land and life. People wrongly assume from the sentiments that it was written later than the political content suggests. (The "Foulques of Anjou" mentioned is Foulques V, later King of Jerusalem.) Here is the whole song:

   Since I have the desire to sing,
   I'll write a verse for which I'll grieve:
   I shall never be a vassal anymore
   in Poitou nor the Limousin.

   For now I shall go into exile:
   in great fear, in great peril,
   in war, shall I leave my son,
   and his neighbours shall do him harm.

   It's a heavy thing for me to leave
   the lordship of Poitiers:
   I leave Foulques of Anjou to guard
   the whole country and his cousin.

   If Foulques of Anjou doesn't aid him,
   or the king, of whom I hold my honours,
   most of them will war on him -
   scoundrel Gascons and Angevins.

   If he is neither wise nor worthy,
   as soon as I have gone from you,
   they will overthrow him,
   for they'll see him young and unfortunate.

   I beg my companion for mercy:
   if I have wronged him, that he forgive me,
   and pray to Jesus on his throne
   in the Romance and Latin tongues.

   I held both prowess and joy,
   but now both have departed,
   and I shall go to Him
   in whom all sinners find their end.

   I have been charming and gay,
   but Our Lord no longer wills it;
   and I can no longer bear the burden,
   so near do I approach the end.

   I have given up all I loved so much:
   chivalry and pride;
   and since it pleases God, I accept it all,
   that He may keep me by Him.

   I enjoin my friends, upon my death,
   all to come and do me great honour,
   since I have held joy and delight
   far and near, and in my abode.

   Thus I give up joy and delight,
   and squirrel and grey and sable furs.

   Pos de chantar m'es pres talenz,
   Farai un vers, don sui dolenz:
   Mais non serai obedienz
   En Peitau ni en Lemozi.

   Qu'era m'en irai en eisil:
   En gran paor, en gran peril,
   En guerra, laisserai mon fil,
   Faran li mal siei vezi.

   Lo departirs m'es aitan greus
   Del seignorage de Peitieus
   En garda lais Folcon d'Angieus
   Tota la terra e son cozi.

   Si Folcos d'Angieus no.l socor,
   E.l reis de cui ieu tenc m'onor,
   Guerrejar l'an tut li plusor,
   Felon Gascon et Angevi.

   Si ben non es savis ni pros,
   Cant ieu serai partitz de vos,
   Vias l'auran tornat en jos,
   Car lo veiran jov'e mesqui.

   Merce clam a mon conpaignon,
   S'anc li fi tort, qu'il m'o perdon,
   Et il prec en Jezu del tron
   En romans et en son lati.

   De proez'e de joi fui,
   Mais ara partem ambedui,
   Et ieu irai m'en a Cellui
   On tut peccador troban fi.

   Mout ai estat cuendes e gais,
   Mas Nostre Seigner no.l vol mais;
   Ar non puesc plus soffrir lo fais
   Tant soi aprochatz de la fi.

   Tot ai guerpit cant amar sueill:
   Cavalaria et orgueill
   E pos Dieu platz, tot o acueill,
   E El que.m reteigna ab Si.

   Totz mos amics prec a la mort,
   Qu.il vengan tuit e m'onren fort,
   Qu'eu ai agut joi e deport
   Loing e pres et e mon aizi.

   Aissi guerpisc joi e deport,
   E vair e gris e sembeli.

It's the only one of his songs for which the melody survives, and has been recorded beautifully by Gérard Zuchetto. Silverwhistle 16:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm not entirely convinced by the song that young William is necessarily a minor, rather than simply a young man whose political prowess and administrative skills are (rightly) doubted by his father, but if there is good reason to believe that Pos de Chantar was written around 1114 then I can hardly disagree. Michaelsanders 16:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The political situation outlined in the song is of fear of being exiled, and of dying in exile, with his lands left in the boy's hands. If his son were an adult, however inexperienced (unless deemed entirely incapable for health reasons), William wouldn't have been talking about putting him under the guardianship of Foulques of Anjou. I think it's only been given a later date by some writers such as Meade because either they haven't read the whole song, and/or they've assumed that its valedictory tone must relate it to his final years. Silverwhistle 16:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

As for the lines themselves - laziness on my part, I'm afraid. I checked the lines to make sure that they weren't the same, but didn't give them enough scrutiny to notice what (now) appears rather obvious, i.e. the particular stretch where the meaning, if not exact phrasing, is (again, now) obviously the same. Thanks for the explanation. Michaelsanders 16:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Meade was using a rhyming translation, by the looks of it. Silverwhistle 16:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It sounds rather better than, "I have given up all I loved so much:/chivalry and pride". I really don't like the translation you gave/in the article: it isn't particularly interesting (the French, for all that I can't understand it, is far better. But then, my tastes don't run far beyond rhyme).

As for the mention of Fulk, though - the mention of 'if Fulk doesn't aid him' and 'I leave him to watch over his cousin' sound as much like an alliance as a wardship. And the Fulk article doesn't help - it doesn't clearly explain when he was in France or Palestine.Michaelsanders 16:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Is he a possible subject of Gerard de Nerval's "El Desdichado." The sonnet seems to refer to a troubadour figure from Aquitaine:

I am the man of gloom - widowed - unconsoled The prince of Aquitaine, his tower in ruin: My sole star is dead - and my constellated lute Bears the Black Sun of Melancholia.

In the night of the tomb, you, my consolation, Give me back Posillipo and the Italian sea, The flower that so eased my heart's desolation, And the trellis that twines the rose into the vine.

Am I Eros or Phoebus? Lusignan or Biron? My brow is still red with the kiss of the queen; I have dreamt in the grotto where the siren swims...

And, twice victorious, I have crossed Acheron: My Orphic lyre in turn modulating the strains Of the sighs of the saint and the cries of the fay.

[Translation by Richard Sieburth]

I look forward to any reply. 173.110.94.144 (talk) 07:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC)Ray

Convent for prostitutes

The article says:

William was a man who loved scandal and no doubt enjoyed shocking his audiences. He also composed a song about founding a convent in his lands, where the nuns would be picked from among the most beautiful women in the region, or from the best whores, depending on the translation. While this confirms William's lusty persona, it also makes a joke about the penitentiary convents for prostitutes founded by the charismatic preacher Robert of Arbrissel. (Bond, xlix)

Maybe i am missing something, but:

• Bond doesn't say anything about on page xlix. I read most of that book, though not very carefully, and i am pretty certain about that page. (It's on my desk now.)
• I can't understand which one of the eleven songs is the song about founding such a convent. Or is it a lost song?

Any help would be appreciated. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 21:33, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I removed this dubious section.

If anyone can provide a reference for that, i'll be happy to have it back. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing like this among his surviving songs. The complete works are available online: http://www.trobar.org/troubadours/coms_de_peiteu -- Silverwhistle (talk) 18:14, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

genealogical error

Your article states that William married in 1088, at the age of only sixteen, "his first wife, Ermengarde, the daughter of Fulk IV of Anjou. She was reputedly beautiful and well-educated, but also suffered from severe mood-swings, vacillating between vivacity and sullenness. She was considered a nag, and had a habit of retiring in bad temper to a cloister after an argument, cutting off all contact with the outside world until suddenly making a reappearance at court as if her absence had never occurred. Such behaviour, coupled with her failure to conceive a child, led William to send her back to her father and have the marriage dissolved (1091)."

Later, Ermengarde is mentioned again, as striking up a friendship with Philippa while at Fontevraud.

Please refer to Marc Wolterbeek's paper, "Inventing History, Inventing Her Story: The Case of William of Aquitaine's Marital Affairs", presented at the Medieval Congress in 1995 (so the information has been around for quite some time). The claim that William was married to "Hermingerda", daughter of Fulk of Anjou is based on the very unreliable chronicle of William of Tyre, written between 1169 and 1187, more than 70 years after the events in question would have taken place. Tyre erroneously identifies Ermengarde's mother as Bertrad/Berteleam, the sister of Amalricus de Montfort (when her mother was in fact Audearde aka Hildegarde of Beaugency, which is recorded correctly in the Wikipedia article on Ermengarde, although it, too, has her married to William of Aquitaine). Tyre's chronicle further lacks any contemporary corroboration - not a single primary text, such as charters, decrees, obituaries, or contracts, ever mentions a marriage between William and Ermengarde while plenty exist to reference the marriage of William and Philippa. It is highly unlikely that Ermengarde - at least as a wife of William - ever existed, which would further make a later 'friendship' with Philippa improbable. Moreover, suggestions that Ermingarde was 'schizophrenic' or suffered from 'manic depression' is likewise sensationalized journalistic speculation stretching the constraints of historical accounts to breaking point.

Another error has Philippa dying 28 November 1118, a date which relies solely on Alfred Richard, an early 20th century historian, and his Histoire des Comptes de Poitou (1903). The primary text recording Philippa's death, however, is an obituary from the Priory of Fontaines, a branch of Fontevrault, stating that the nun Philippa, Countess of Poitou, died on December 4th, but does not identify the year. Further, a charter (also regarded as a primary text) records a donation by Philippa to Hugh of Montierneuf, abbot of that monastery between 1125 and 1129, making her death in 1118 impossible. Wolterbeek also identifies other primary sources that support Philippa living well into the 1120's, as well as refuting questionable other 'wives' of William. Philippa was his only wife. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.224.10.132 (talk) 01:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Inconsistency

Early in the article the idea of a marriage between William and Ermengarde of Anjou is heavily discounted. However, later in the article Ermengarde is described as demanding to be reinstated as Duchess of Aquitaine.

ChuckRFord (talk) 02:38, 4 July 2014 (UTC)