Talk:Willa Brown

CEs and tweaks

Creffett - I made a few copy edits and tweaks to the lead and first section, and then got sidetracked. Wanted to mention that while researching sources, I came across this letter from Willa Brown to Eleanor Roosevelt. Wow! Anyway, I don't want to overstep anything you're trying to accomplish, so I'll wait for you to weigh-in here. Happy editing! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:53, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, wow, nice find! I've sent an email to the author of this profile to ask about what sources he used and to see if he has access to anything interesting offline (reeeeally hoping that he doesn't say "I summarized Wikipedia!"). I don't have any specific plans for what to work on, probably will spend some time tonight thinking about that, but if you see any areas you think could use some work I'm open to suggestions. creffett (talk) 17:56, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Turns out I can access most of the subscription-required sources through the local university library, so that's a plus. I'm going to dig into those a bit more and see what else there is to say. The next few things I'll tackle (probably tomorrow):

• What exactly did she do in Chicago before starting in aviation? Blackpast briefly says that she was a social worker (or at least that she was there "to be" one), but Gubert et al. says that she held various secretarial jobs. Not mutually exclusive, of course.
• Need to clarify the timing of her licenses. Blackpast says she got her commercial license in 37, but Gubert et al. says private pilot's license in 38 and a commercial license in 39.
• Should consolidate the ANB source with Gubert et al., since the former is a cut-down version of the latter.
• Dig up more information on her political runs - it's interesting if true, but Gubert et al. specifically mention that they couldn't find mention of it in Chicago newspapers. Blackpast names one of her opponents, so that's a starting point.
• Potential additional source: "America's Black Air Pioneers, 1900-1939, since it's an Air Force dissertation it might have a different perspective. Will review.

creffett (talk) 00:03, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Good to know! I haven't dug deep on the internet but I did find Kentucky Commission on Human Rights. I'll try to dig a bit more tomorrow. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:09, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay, this is a real mess. There are several different kinds of license in play. I can definitely say that she got her private pilot's license in summer 1938, and she was very likely the first (I've found a Pittsburgh Courier article from then which describes her as "understood to be the first colored aviatrix to receive this license"). She may have gotten a lower-grade license (perhaps a non-solo license?) in 1937, but it's unclear whether she is the first - different sources give different answers. She also earned a commercial pilot's license, probably in 1939, and I think she was the first to get that. There's enough here to say that Blackpast is incorrect (it dates her commercial license to 1937, but you can't have a commercial before a private, and we have a contemporary newspaper dating the private to 1938). I feel confident saying in wikivoice that she was the first African-American woman to earn a US private pilot's license, and fairly confident that she was the first to earn a US commercial pilot's license, but any thoughts on how to handle the more questionable case? creffett (talk) 23:39, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

My first thoughts are that this information would be reliable for the dates she acquired her licenses (but who knows how reliable government sources are, so we back it up with a couple more 2nd/3rd party RS). It appears the correct date for her pilot's license is 1937, but it's possible the license wasn't issued until 1938. The government source says it was the same year she earned her M.B.A. which was 1937. I found the following corroborating info which provides the cert#: In 1937, airman’s certificate No. 43814 made her the first African American womanto be licensed as a private pilot in the United States. and it's sourced here. I also found this book, and this one which is cited for other info in the article. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:26, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Next steps to GA

Atsme, I'm feeling pretty good about the state of the article from a content perspective - I think we've hit the high points of her life and everything is cited. The potential issues/inter-source disagreements that I know of:

• What kind of pilot's license she was the first to get. Mentioned in an explanatory footnote.
• Date her first marriage started - most sources say 1939, but one source specifically says that they couldn't find any evidence of that date and says 1947. Footnoted.
• A handful of other years - there's inter-source variation on the date of her commissioning as a lieutenant and the year she joined the FAA's women's advisory committee. Probably a couple others in there that I'm not thinking of. Those were minor variations, no more than a year, so I just picked one for each and ran with it.
• I left out a smaller part of her political career, she ran (unsuccessfully) for an alderman position in Chicago twice between her Congress runs; if you think that's worth adding I can get that in.
• The precise wording of her run for Congress. Some sources say that she was the first African-American woman to run for Congress, but newspapers from the time (thank goodness for that database access!) clearly say that she ran in the Republican primary for Congress and was defeated both times.

Like I said, though, generally happy with where things are, but I've been staring at the details for long enough that I can't really evaluate the article as a whole very well. What else do you think needs to get done to be suitable for a GA nom? creffett (talk) 00:11, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

• My typical MO is to walk away, and come back to an article several hours or even a day later...I will do that repeatedly through the course of 2 or 3 days (and it may be that I'll see changes that need to be made a year later but that is simply a sidebar note to what we're doing now - our work is never complete when striving for perfection). Hopefully, you will do the same, and when that's done, we can get an extra set of eyes on it before you nominate it for GA and potentially for DYK. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:23, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

  Atsme, sorry to bug you again, I have one last question that I'd like your opinion on - going to do some editing tonight to see if I can hit all of CaroleHenson's comments. Now that I've thought about it more, I really like that quote below (about her visiting the newsroom), but I'm wondering if adding it to the article would be excessive. What are your thoughts about adding it? I was thinking that if I do add it, I would add a couple more sentences about how she worked with the Chicago Defender. creffett (talk) 21:51, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Willa Brown/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: CaroleHenson (talk · contribs) 04:59, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

This is a very interesting article and I am looking forward to reviewing it.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:59, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Intro and infobox

• I made this minor edit so that the phrase follows the school.
• Within the infobox, only the first occupation needs to be capitalized.

I see this is  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:34, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

• Did she die before her third husband? There is no end date for their marriage, which makes me think that he may have outlived her.
• There is no mention in the article that she was an active member of the Westside Community Church, in which case there should be a source in the intro.

I see this is  Done, by removing this from the intro.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:34, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

• The intro for a good article should have three to four paragraphs. Is there some information that you could add, perhaps her recognition/awards?–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:41, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I see this is  Done. I like the edits made to the introduction.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:34, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I'll take care of these today or tomorrow. I did not list the end date for her third husband's marriage because I did not find mention of it in any of my sources (and I did specifically go looking for it), so as best I can tell he outlived her. creffett (talk) 14:17, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay, gotcha. I tried looking for it. I found that when she died she was a widow in one of her obituaries, though. I will take a quick look and if I cannot find it, I will drop it.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:34, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

She was a widow by 1991 and her husband retired in 1971, but for some strange reason I cannot find an obituary for him between those time frames.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:00, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I added a sentence about her being a widow by 1991 and citation to the Personal life section.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

• This section is  Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Early life

• I added a link to Terre Haute, Indiana
• The link to John C. Robinson is to a Civil War general. I piped in John Robinson (aviator).–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:56, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

• This section is  Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:13, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Aviation career

• Regarding "pursue more African American participation in both fields" - what do you think about something like "attract more African American participation in both fields"?
• Regarding "She lobbied the government continuously," - continuously makes is sounds like she did something non-stop, 24/7. For encyclopedic tone, it reads better without the word continuously.
• I added a link to Army Air Corps.
• Did she do anything with her aircraft mechanic's license?–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:18, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

• This section reads really well now, with this and other changes, and is  Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:17, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Post-aviation career

• Is there any information about what she was able to accomplish on the Federal Aviation Administration's Women's Advisory Committee - or what it's purpose was?–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:20, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

• This section looks good and is  Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:19, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Awards and recognition

• I added a link to Kentucky Aviation Hall of Fame, a new redirect.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:24, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

• Great additions! This section is  Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:27, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Further reading

• Further reading should follow the References section, per MOS:SECTIONORDER.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

• This is  Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:27, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Notes

• I don't understand the first note. There seems to be a word or words missing before the citation, and there's no citation at the end of the sentence.
• I tidied up the second note. There shouldn't be punctuation between the citations... and no need to say "See" before the citations.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:28, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Looks good, this section is  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:28, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

General comments

• It is not necessary, but it would be nice to have a Personal life or Marriage and children section. If not, please add citations regarding her marriage to her first and third husbands in the Infobox.

This looks great and is  Done, thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:20, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

• Much of her biography focuses on attaining specific accomplishments - obtaining licenses or "firsts". It would be nice to know a little bit more about what she accomplished. For instance, it was nice to read about her lobbying efforts. As you were researching the article, did you find material that would help personalize the article a bit--to bring a greater sense of who she was and how she operated?–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:34, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

  Will cite her marriages; the first and third marriages weren't terribly remarkable (that is to say, the sources gave the names of the husbands, the dates of the marriages, the husbands' occupations, and that's about it). No children. The sources didn't really go into much detail about how she operated, but I'll take another look and see if I can flesh things out more. Now that you mention it, there is one quote that I'd really like to work in somewhere, about her visit to the Chicago Defender (a black-owned newspaper), sourced here (among others):

  When Willa Brown, a shapely young brownskin woman, wearing white johdpurs, a form fitting white jacket and white boots, strode into our newsroom, in 1936, she made such a stunning appearance that all the typewriters suddenly went silent...Unlike most visitors, [she] wasn't at all bewildered. She had a confident bearing and there was an undercurrent of determination in her husky voice as she announced, not asked, that she wanted to see me.

  — Enoch P. Waters

  That quote is repeated or paraphrased in a number of sources, and I think that's the only real glimpse we get into her personality. The only other time I saw her voice was in one of the newspaper articles, "WILLA B. BROWN VIEWS POLITICS AS NEW CRUSADE" - I'll dig that back out and see if it has anything to add a little more flavor to the article. creffett (talk) 14:28, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I love this quote!!! I put it in the Personal life section, but perhaps it belongs up in her career.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:34, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing this GA nom, Carole. I see that the very capable Creffett is busy polishing the prose and fulfilling your excellent suggestions. I am available if more help is needed - just ping me. 😊 ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:44, 11 April 2020 (UTC) ^{PS: I went ahead and modified the prose that contained facts, the presentation of which were too closely paraphrased. 15:05, 11 April 2020 (UTC)}

@Creffett and Atsme:, Great! Willa Brown seems like an incredible "can do" person. I'll wait til you let me know it's done and put it on hold for the short run.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:56, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

And Carole, the infobox image tells us she also had the privilege of being able to enjoy the original Coca Cola in the small bottles. ^{I am aware that my comment may not ring a bell for those born in 1985+. Atsme _Talk 📧 14:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)}

Absolutely!–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

GA criteria

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Yes, on the whole the article is well-written. There are some suggestions above.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:56, 11 April 2020 (UTC) This is now  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	Yes, with the exception of the Further reading section.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:56, 11 April 2020 (UTC) This is now  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.

Comments

Please take a look at the copyvio report when you get a chance. Some of the duplicates are titles, which is okay, but there are a few sentences or part of sentences that need paraphrasing. You are doing a great job, by the way, on the article!–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:20, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

CaroleHenson, I think I've hit everything you mentioned, it's ready for re-review. Collected answers to a few of your comments:

• Generally: I tried to add a little more detail in a few places to give us an idea of how she worked, but there's not a ton there - most sources I found were fairly general, just listing her accomplishments without really giving us much insight into her personality or how she operated. Unfortunate.
• Details on her first and third husbands are lacking; as far as I can tell neither was especially notable. I wasn't able to find the date of her divorce from Coffey. I'm unsure about how the third marriage ended; her obituaries don't mention her husband, but I have no information on if or when he might have died. Presumably not divorced since her obits list her as Willa Brown Chappell.
• Close paraphrasing has been cleaned up (I swear it was there when I started expanding the article!)
• Mechanic's license: didn't find anything; I'd guess teaching students and maintain the school aircraft, but I haven't found a source for that.
• FAA Women's Advisory Committee: no further details on what she did. Haven't found a ton on what the committee did either.
• Removed the first note (the one about the conflicting reports on the date of her second marriage).
• I didn't add much more to the lead because I didn't want it to get disproportionately large compared to the rest of the article.

Hope you're happy with where it is, if you have any further suggestions I'm all ears! I really appreciate all of the suggestions you've given and tweaks you've made. creffett (talk) 23:52, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks Creffett! I will go through my initial comments and your updates and comments.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:27, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I am very happy with it! You did an excellent job! I love the quote about her walking into a room. It gives a sense of her presence, assuredness... great!! I added notes above, and the article is ready to pass GA. I made some minor edits here. I paraphrased one sentence here. The copyvio report looks good now... mostly titles and "first black woman" etc. for which there are only so many combinations and will come up in one source or another. Excellent job! You have been a joy to work with!–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:48, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

CaroleHenson, thank you so much, I really enjoyed working with you too! creffett (talk) 12:19, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

It was very much my pleasure! It's a really interesting article!–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:12, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 23:02, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Willa Brown was the first African American woman to earn a United States pilot's license? Source: [1]
  • ALT1:... that Willa Brown's efforts to train African American pilots in the United States led to the creation of the Tuskegee Airmen? Source: [2]
  • ALT2:... that Willa Brown accomplished several historic firsts and she could fly?

Improved to Good Article status by Creffett (talk) and Atsme (talk). Nominated by Creffett (talk) at 13:02, 14 April 2020 (UTC).

• Approved for ALT1 as my favorite hook. Article is newly promoted enough, hook is hooky and cited, no close paraphrasing, most sources are online, paywalled and offline sources accepted AGF.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:25, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

• Hi, I came by to promote ALT1. The hook fact, which connects her training these pilots to the formation of the Tuskegee Airmen, is verified by both footnotes 5 and 6. However, in the lead, the text says that her lobbying efforts led to the formation of the Tuskegee Airmen. The connection is written correctly in the body of the article. Please amend the lead per the sources. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 15:35, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yoninah, actually, both are accurate (or at least there are sources that say both things - some credit her lobbying, some credit her training, from my research doing the article I think that both are probably valid). I will update the lead accordingly later today. creffett (talk) 15:38, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yoninah, actually, on second read, I think you're right - her lobbying efforts definitely helped get African American pilots into service, but the Tuskegee Airmen in particular are only credited to her training (I think it's both, but I only have sources for training). Thanks for the spot, fixed. creffett (talk) 22:58, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you. Restoring tick per 3family6's review. Yoninah (talk) 23:01, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

DYK comment

It's nice to have someone new look at the article, but if no one responds in a couple of days, I will happily do the DYK review.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:24, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Tuskegee Airmen

That Willa Brown is responsible for the creation of the Tuskegee Airmen is an unwarranted claim and at best a vast exaggeration. If any single individual is "responsible" for the creation of the Tuskegee Airmen, it is Alfred "Chief" Anderson.173.62.25.244 (talk) 16:56, 26 September 2021 (UTC)