Talk:Wilhelm Keitel/Archive 1

Archive 1

How to use See Also...

Links already mentioned in the article need not be duplicated under the See Also list. Kingturtle 23:25, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, in that case almost every see also should be removed, I feel they help users navigate and that they show the way to important related pages. --GeneralPatton 01:13, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Correct, most See Alsos should be removed. The links should be written into the text. Kingturtle 04:08, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

You do have a point there. --GeneralPatton 01:45, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Also...you could create a MediaWiki page regarding Nazi Germany leaders...if you are not familiar with MediaWiki pages...content written in a MediaWiki page will be displayed in articles that contain the corresponding tag. For example, the content written in Template:Protected will appear in any article that contains the {{msg:Protected}} tag. Take a look at Wikipedia:MediaWiki custom messages to see what WikiMedia pages have already been created. You can use the corresponding tags. You can create new pages. Kingturtle 02:46, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for this, I had no idea about they had this, it ought to be helpful once I get the grip on it.--GeneralPatton 22:52, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, here it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:GFMofWWII . German Field Marshals (Generalfeldmarschall) of World War II Media Wiki! -17:47, 20 May 2004 . . GeneralPatton

WOW!!!! VERY COOL!!!!!! Kingturtle 02:02, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

End of WW2: When did Keitel sign the papers ?

Can someone more familiar with WW2 history confirm the date when Keitel signed Nazi Germany's surrender to the Red Army, please ? The article says May 9th, 1945. Shouldn't it be May 8th, instead ? (NARA indicates that it was May 7th, but I think they got mixed up with Alfred Jodl signing the capitulation documents to the Allies in Reims, France, which happened on the 7th.) Thanks. -- PFHLai 20:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I've found the text of the German Instrument of Surrender signed in Berlin by Keitel at Wikisource. It was dated May 8, not May 9. -- PFHLai 07:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm following up the comment you (PFHLai) made at Talk:Main_Page#On_this_day:_May_8.2F9. I found the Wikipedia article on the actual German Instrument of Surrender, but wanted to list three articles where someone who knows more about this than me needs to check they are all consistent:

• Victory Day (Eastern Europe)
• End of World War II in Europe
• German Instrument of Surrender

Thanks. Carcharoth 15:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Harvey Keitel

Is there any evidence that they are related? Harvey Keitel is Jewish so I find this unlikely. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

As I said, Harvey Keitel is Jewish and saying he is related to a Nazi war criminal, if untrue, could be considered slander. I am removing this, since it has not been cited, in compliance with WP's policies on biographies of living people. If it can be cited and the relationship explained, then it should be put back in. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 03:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Just because someone is Jewish doesnt mean that he cant be related to a Nazi War Criminal. Its possible that some Keitels converted to Christianity at some point in the 19th Century, and the others emigrated to the US. Take Senator John Kerry. He is Catholic, his paternal Grandparents were jewish (Fritz Kohn und Ida Löwe). When they converted they choose the name "Kerry".

So yes the two can be related. But only on a very far streched Basis.

That a Jew has the name Keitel doesn't mean it is a Jewish name. In fact it is a very old German(-Christian) name (Keitel < Gaiduald < Gaidu = point of a lance). On of the ancestors was a "lancer" (see Heintze: Die deutschen Familiennamen).

Personality

I think some mention of Keitel being a spineless toady, unable to speak up against Hitler as the Fuhrer, directing the armed forces, totally destroyed any hope of a German victory, and then stalemate. He couldn't stand up to Hitler (previous Generals who did this were removed). - MSTCrow 02:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Questionable section

Is the "Portrayal in popular culture" section of any value?Lestrade (talk) 21:51, 7 May 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

his Friends

I know that one of his friends was the polish citizan Waclaw Karlowski. Does somebody has photos or information about the relationship? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.115.168.186 (talk) 17:44, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

NSDAP membership

Was Wilhelm Keitel a member of the NSDAP. Whether Yes or no, this should be included into the article.

In the section on Keitel's honorary NSDAP membership, the article states:

In 1944, German laws were changed and military officers were encouraged to seek NSDAP membership. Keitel claimed he did so as a formality at the Nuremberg Trials, but never received formal party membership. He was one of only two people to receive honorary party membership status.

So it would make sense, if there was only one other person in the same situation here as Keitel, they should actually be named in the article as well.

Pazouzou (talk) 06:52, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

RE: Trial and execution - hanging of Wilhelm Keitel

There are details here about Keitel strangling as opposed to his neck being broken. "Due to the drop of the hanging not being long enough to break his neck immediately, Keitel died of strangulation 24 minutes after he was dropped down the hatch."

The source cited:

[NOTE 2] ^ "The Trial of the Century - and of all time". Part two. By Donald E. Wilkes, Jr., Professor of Law, University of Georgia School of Law.

doesn't actually say this - it just says that he was hanged. I read a source here: http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/Nazi-Execution-Smith16oct46.htm which describes in detail the hangings of the Nazis found guilty at The Nuremberg Trials and nothing is said of Keitel stangling. The article goes into considerable detail re the death of Julius Streicher so one must assume that if this was the case with Keitel it would also be mentioned. There may be other details out there and this is just a case of not citing the correct article? --Djbennett1988 (talk) 21:37, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

• • I agree with the previous objection. The details given in the article regarding Keitel's death cannot be found in any of the sources quoted in the article. Moreover, the actual quote given in quotation marks does not come from any of those sources, and is thus unsourced. Unless the information concerned can be located and quoted properly, it should be removed from the article. athinaios | Talk 11:48, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Reference mess

I will do what I can to improve the reference mess sooner or later. Jonas Vinther (talk) 13:20, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Himmler vs Keitel

This (badly sourcered article) states "Keitel unquestionably allowed Heinrich Himmler a free hand with his racial controls and ensuing terror in occupied Eastern European territories" - which actually suggest that the Reichsfuhrer der SS Heinrich Himmler was subordinated to Keitel and Wehrmacht. I'm not defending Keitel, but he was a typical "yes-man", not the leader of the Holocaust, which Himmler was. Keitel was many unpleasant things (through his lack of spine), and guilty of many things. But evil by nature ? I don't think he was. But phrases like above tends to downgrade the crimes that oftenly is concidered as evil, that men like Himmler, Eichman, Kaltenbrunner and Heydrich committed. I do atleast demand a source that declares that Himmler was subordinated to any one else than Hitler. Boeing720 (talk) 22:26, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree Boeing720 - this article is a reference/source mess. I have very good sources regarding his role in the holocaust and war crimes, so I will, as stated below in the new section, begin a major improvement of this article one I reach it on my to-do list. Your input/help is welcome. Jonas Vinther (talk) 13:23, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

A splendid idea ! Best of luck with this task. Boeing720 (talk) 22:33, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

By the way, Guido Knopp's Hitler's Henchmen (available also in Swedish, "Hitlers hantlangare" , I believe), Keitel is one of six nazi-related persons, who he examines. Boeing720 (talk) 22:41, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Knopp made a lot of good documentaries such as Hitler's Henchmen, although there is a more military and detailed description of Keitel in a documentary made by Knopp called Hitler's Warriors. I even wrote that article myself. :) Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 16:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Minister of Defense -- not

I replaced this phrase "thus effectively making him Minister of War" with this one "making him the Chief of Defense for Germany". Ministers of Defense are usually civilians, CHODs are uniformed officers. 155.213.224.59 (talk) 15:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

First cousin once-removed of J. Robert Oppenheimer's Wife

A recent book that details the lives of the women in Oppenheimer's life indicate that his wife and mother of his two children was in fact a cousin of Keitel, kind of an interesting thing in many respects. This is mentioned here http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2015/08/31/history/post-perspective/birth-bomb.html although he is referred to as a distant relative which is not necessarily how many would characterize first cousin, once removed.--Jrm2007 (talk) 17:42, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Nazis Did Not Seize Power

The article contains the comment, "the Nazi seizure of power in 1933." The Nazis did not seize power. They acquired it quite legally, when President von Hindenburg, acting in accordance with the "rule of law" established under the Constitution and laws of the Weimar Republic, appointed Adolf Hitler the Chancellor of Germany. 130.13.4.241 (talk) 14:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)John Paul Parks130.13.4.241 (talk) 14:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh really? Is murdering political leaders 'legal' to you?84.63.98.225 (talk) 18:07, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The O.P. is factually right. The Nazis were, in fact, elected to power. Flanker235 (talk) 00:13, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

---

Legacy

When moving to the United States and Australia after World War II, some of Keitel's family changed their last name to Keetle so as to not be associated with his crimes. Many of his descendants still go by this last name.

I suggest to remove this speculation and no fact message ! it might hurt people with that familly name ; unloess it is confirmed then let us remove it--78.89.1.3 (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2009 (UTC) Adam All

It does warrant some research. If you look at how many Keetles there actually are, not too many... lends credibility to the question IMHO —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arrows98 (talk • contribs) 14:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Confusing sentence re: Keitel's ashes

"His father's ashes (supposedly scattered after being hanged) were purchased from the Americans and are buried with him and his uncle Bodewin Keitel."

So the ashes were not scattered, and were somehow preserved by the Americans?? And the grammatical structure is confusing - the sentence suggests that "ashes [were] hanged". I know the author probably means "... after Keitel had been hanged..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by K.e.coffman (talk • contribs) 03:38, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

The only place I could find this story related was a blog, "https://ww2gravestone.com/people/keitel-wilhelm-bodewin-johann-gustav/" - and the story is accredited to "some veterans." I removed the statement - it should not be added without a solid Reliable Source. Also, the American military was not in the business of selling cremated ashes . . .HammerFilmFan (talk) 15:20, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Too positive

The article as it currently stands is too positive towards Keitel. (217.42.27.218 (talk) 20:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC))

So? And who decides how positive is it allowed to be? Give individual passages that you consider biased and say why. Otherwise this is nonsense. We can't just go and say: "Oh, this was a Wehrmacht general, let's make the article sound really negative!" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.204.102.169 (talk) 02:06, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Keitel's last words (two versions)

This article says:

To underscore the criminal rather than military nature of Keitel's acts, the Allies denied his request to be shot by firing squad. Instead, he was executed by hanging. Keitel's last words were: "I call on God Almighty to have mercy on the German people. More than 2 million German soldiers went to their death for the Fatherland before me. I follow now my sons – all for Germany."

But the article Nacht und Nebel says:

In part because of his role in carrying out this decree, Keitel was sentenced to death by hanging, despite his insistence on being shot instead due to his military service and rank. At 1:20am on 16 October 1946 Keitel defiantly shouted out, "Alles für Deutschland! Deutschland über alles!" just before the trap door opened beneath his feet.

These cannot both be true, unless Keitel was a ventriloquist. Can anyone resolve this contradiction? — Lawrence King ^(talk) 06:34, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

My guess is that both are true, and that he began with the more measured words in the first quote, then concluded by shouting the final words in the second quote, but some newspapers chose only to report the final shouts. Also, there appears to be an overlap: 'all for Germany' is the same as 'alles für Deutschland'. Presumably he spoke in German. Dubmill (talk) 10:35, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Your theory makes sense, especially with the overlap you noticed between the two quotes. And surely you're correct that he spoke in German. Hopefully someone has a reliable source that we can cite on this to verify it? — Lawrence King ^(talk) 03:04, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Personal life / iron cross

I'm looking to ref his personal life and his awards or delete them if they fail WP:V. They are the only part of the article currently failing WP:V Any ideas? Szzuk (talk) 12:55, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Szzuk: I'm not able to find anything either; should probably be removed. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:32, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I removed it. I've referenced everything else that was outstanding. Is this anywhere near good article? Szzuk (talk) 19:08, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Copyedit

@K.e.coffman:, @Szzuk: are you looking to take this to GA? If so, I can comment anything that needs changing, if you would like. Regards, Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 09:59, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Before:Keitel was born in the village of Helmscherode near Gandersheim in the Duchy of Brunswick, the eldest son of Carl Keitel (1854–1934), a middle-class landowner, and his wife Apollonia Vissering (1855–1888). His plan to take over his family's estates after completing his education at a gymnasium foundered on his father's resistance.

After:Keitel was born in the village of Helmscherode near Gandersheim in the Duchy of Brunswick, Germany. The eldest son of Carl Keitel (1854–1934), a middle-class landowner, and his wife Apollonia Vissering (1855–1888), he planned to take over his family's estates after completing his education at a gymnasium but this foundered on his father's resistance.

Any comments on this change? I think it reads better, but I may have the changed the meaning a little. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 10:34, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

'In the autumn of 1932, he suffered a heart attack.[6] Shortly after his recovery, in October 1933, Keitel was appointed as deputy commander of the 3rd Infantry Division; in 1934, he was given command of the 22nd Infantry Division at Bremen.'

I presume the recovery was in October 1933? Please clarify that this was the time of recovery and I will be happy to change it to sound better. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 10:51, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

The changes you've made are good. Thank you. I only have phone access until next week and will check sources then. Szzuk (talk) 11:17, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

'a 1939 application for membership was discovered in the archives' what archives? Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:08, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

'As Hitler related after the explosion' what does related mean? clarification needed. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:11, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

The end of the 'Role in the Holocaust' section becomes a bit unfocused. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:24, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't have the source, but I think this needs some clarification: 'Keitel's body, as those of the other nine executed men and the corpse of Hermann Göring, was cremated at Ostfriedhof (Munich) and the ashes were scattered in the river Isar.' Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:34, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Copyedit all  Done, any questions, or any more requests, please do contact me. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:35, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Section "Role in the Holocaust"

Preserving here by providing this link: [1]. My rationale was that the content is somewhat tangential; Keitel committed plenty of this own crimes, directly, and the article should reflect those instead. --K.e.coffman (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

The last couple of sentences, perhaps, but the rest is about him and should remain. (Hohum ^@) 19:34, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

I restored a shortened version, focusing (as it seems was the Browning's intent) on the invasion of Poland: [2]. The version I originally removed was confusing as it talked about "systematic genocide" (in 1939), which was not the case. The genocide of the Jews started with the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

"Craven Willingness"

Why is the phrase "craven willingness", a clear opinion on someone's character (craven = cowardly), allowed in an encyclopedic article? To make it factual, it seems to me it should be changed to "considered to be craven willingness... ... by X" where X is the holder of that opinion. This is appearing on the Wikipedia front page as a "Did you know..." fact. Look, I'm no fan of Nazis either, but let's keep the distinction between facts and opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:CDC8:8000:6C82:8F98:A732:9485 (talk) 15:20, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Wilhelm Keitel/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Fiamh (talk · contribs) 06:41, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

• What makes Traces of War an RS?
  • Removed as these details were not significant. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
• Can we get a page number on ref #17 (Burleigh) for verifiability, or cut it if it's in the other ref?
  • Removed as duplicate. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
• Not related to GA criteria but one minor quibble with the lede: no need to say 'dependable sycophant and habitual "yes-man"', it's redundant.
  • Shortened. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
• Great work on this article!