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Talk:Why Did You Do That?/GA1

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GA Review

[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Colin M (talk · contribs) 23:16, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

I really enjoyed reading this article - I learned a lot of new information about a song that I love. The article is well researched and covers its topic thoroughly. The only thing that I think is preventing this from being a GA is the prose. Unfortunately, there's a pretty high density of little issues with wording, grammar, and punctuation throughout the article.

Here are some awkward sentences collected from a first read through (I can't promise this is exhaustive). I've tried to bold the specific parts of the sentence that I think don't work:

  • "Why Did You Do That?" was written by the songwriters to portray a retro and modern feel in the track
  • "Why Did You Do That?" contains influences of the work of The Neptunes intercepted with instrumentation from a xylophone and a repetitive chorus.
  • "intercepted" also used oddly in a later section. Did you maybe mean "interspersed"?
  • Following its release, the track received much attention due to its lyrics, which critics and fans relegated as an argument against pop music
  • The word "relegated" is also used inappropriately in two other places in the article
  • Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga worked with a number of songwriters for the soundtrack of A Star Is Born. Among them was the song "Why Did You Do That?"
  • The singer wanted the choreography to be "jerky", which Jackson took to the dance studio and created the choreography, infusing a pop-R&B style with a 1990s feel in it.
  • Since the character of Ally is not supposed to be like Gaga in her style and movements, Jackson wanted individual aesthetic for "Why Did You Do That?", as well as the other uptempo songs like "Heal Me" and "Hair Body Face".
  • The singer had first collaborated with Warren for the 2015 sexual assault song, "Til It Happens to You"
  • Around two and a half years ago, Paul "DJWS" Blair asked...
  • For recording the track, Cooper and Gaga met with the producers in the recording studio in Los Angeles and completed it, along with other songs.
  • Awkward wording and contradicts the claim about the song be written during Joanne World Tour
  • After the soundtrack was released, "Why Did You Do That?" divided critics opinion of the track
  • Spanos also found that the lyrics of the song, like "Why'd you come around me with an ass like that?" are meant to off-guarding
  • Gibson Johns from AOL also felt that although "Why Did You Do That?" was included as a "soulless pop banger against the more serious rock-tinged songs" in the film, but the audience and fans had warmed up to the "earworm-worthy jam".
  • Writing for The Daily Dot, Brenden Gallagher noticed that "Why Did You Do That?" was not submitted by Warner Bros. for the Academy Award for Best Original Song, although it has been popular all-over the internet with its memorable line "Why'd you come around me with an ass like that?" Gallagher also listed a number of internet meme generated based on the song while adding that "A Star Is Born created a guilty pleasure song in the film that has gone on to become a guilty pleasure song in real life. The conversation around it is similar to the discourse we had around Taylor Swift's 'Shake It Off' or the entire existence of The Chainsmokers. While critics ask why people like it, people are too busy liking it to notice."
  • This is a really long/convoluted sentence, even without the big embedded quote at the end

Let me know if you have any questions about my issues with any of the above.

I think improving the prose throughout the article could be a pretty significant task. One option you might consider is requesting help from Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors (though apparently the average wait time for requests is around 20 days).

Also, a few small notes:

  • I think saying that the song "contains influences of the work of The Neptunes" may be a bit of a stretch based on the source used. One critic said that the song sounds "Neptunes-y", but it's not like we have a quote from any of the song's writers saying they were thinking of The Neptunes when they wrote it.
  • The "Critical response and analysis" section might be a skosh too long. It feels like certain points (e.g. the view that the song was intentionally written to be bad/insubstantial) are repeated in different places just using different quotes from different critics. It's possible some reorganization could help reduce that redundancy. I don't think it's a big deal though.

-Colin M (talk) 23:16, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The GOCE review has been completed. ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:02, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Second round of comments

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Prose is looking much better! Some new comments below.

It charted at number 17 on the Slovakia Digital Top 100 chart. Is this a sufficiently noteworthy aspect of the song that it bears a mention in the intro? (My feeling is 'no')

Is there possibly a better name you could use for the Why Did You Do That? § Background and development section? I was expecting it to cover the early history of the song's development, or the reason for the song's creation. But the content is about how the song is used in the movie. What about "Appearance in film"? "Appearance in A Star Is Born"? "Context"?

To record the track, Cooper and Gaga met with the producers in a recording studio in Los Angeles and wrote it, along with the film's other songs.

This sentence is confusing. To record the song, they wrote it?

Another issue I just noticed with this is that it seems to imply that Bradley Cooper was involved in writing the track, but this isn't mentioned elsewhere in the article, and he's not listed as a writer. Maybe it would be more accurate to say Cooper and Gaga began work on the songs for A Star Is Born in a recording studio in Los Angeles. Once Gaga embarked on her Joanne World Tour (2017–2018), they created a recording studio on the tour bus.... But I'm just trying to guess at more plausible details - I haven't checked whether that's supported by sources. Colin M (talk) 23:41, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the studio(s) where the song was recorded: this is mostly a matter of opinion, but FWIW, I see this as a relatively minor detail, and think the infobox would be cleaner without this information. Right now, the recording studios are actually listed in three places in the article: the infobox, in prose in § Recording and composition, and in § Credits and personnel. I think it would be sufficient to have the information only in that last section.

Same with Nilan and Monson programmed the song and played keyboards; Tim Stewart played guitar. Unless it's an important aspect of the song's recording which is mentioned in secondary sources, I'd keep it in § Credits and personnel and not mention it in prose.

If we are mentioning songwriters and producers and even engineers why would we not mention who played the guitar and keyboards? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:27, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a slippery slope! My understanding is that songwriters and producers are typically considered to be the people with the most creative responsibility/credit for a song (not counting the performer), and they're commonly mentioned in secondary sources when talking about a song or album. Instrumentalists, background singers, and the various other technical personnel are rarely mentioned in secondary sources, and (theoretically) have less of an impact on or responsibility for the finished product.
WikiProject Musical Theatre has a guideline for the similar question of which personnel to mention in an article about a musical. Only a few specific creative personnel are considered noteworthy by default (directors, choreographers, writers of the music/lyrics/book). People like stage managers, makeup artists, lighting designers, casting directors etc. are generally not mentioned/listed in the article, though there may be exceptions if their work is called out as a significant aspect of the show in reliable sources, or if they're independently notable.
So yeah, my recommendation would be yes to writers and producers, no to any other personnel unless their work on the song is mentioned in secondary sources. Colin M (talk) 23:34, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(There's even a question of whether § Credits and personnel is itself overkill. In most articles about creative works (movies, musicals, video games) we don't list the full credits in the article. But I feel like I've seen this a few times for song articles, so maybe some consensus has formed around it being okay to mirror liner notes for songs. I'm fine with the section as is - just some food for thought.)

With Jackson's dismissal of the lyrics, the discussion extended to the character's short-sightedness and inability to go beyond his own rock music. Others justified the dismissal of the song's "bad" lyrics, saying it resulted in the character reverting to his "rampant alcoholism".

Re first sentence: I'm a little confused about what this is saying. In particular the "With Jackson's dismissal of the lyrics," part is vague. Also, it seems to be stating a subjective opinion (that Jackson is short-sighted and unable to go beyond his own rock music) as a fact.

Re second sentence: Are critics actually saying the song's lyrics were bad because they caused Jackson to revert to alcoholism? That seems like a strange argument.

Link for Slovakia singles chart citation seems to be broken. (In that it just goes to the main page for the chart)

Feel free to reply to comments inline if it's easier. Colin M (talk) 14:59, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ahhh I missed these second set of comments, sorry Colin will try to address them. —IB [ Poke ] 11:26, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@IndianBio: Just a friendly ping in case you forgot about this (like I kind of did). The review has been on hold for a while now, so I should probably close it if there isn't any activity in the next week or two. Colin M (talk) 21:30, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Colin M: Can I help with something? What hcanges have and have not been done? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 17:19, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@MarioSoulTruthFan: Sure, if you'd like to take over, that would be great! I think the only unaddressed comments are the ones listed under the "Second round of comments" subsection above. Colin M (talk) 14:46, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for picking this up. Not sure where IndianBio went, but I forgot this was ongoing. Let me know if additional help is needed. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:04, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Colin M: Please take a look at the comments I adressed and tried to fix. BTW the link works fine, jsut follow the instruction on quote. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 15:14, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@MarioSoulTruthFan: awesome, your edits look great. And good call on the link - I didn't see the instructions that accompanied it.
I made a few final changes myself related to some of the comments above (most notably renaming the "Background and context" section). I don't think they should be too controversial, but if you see any issues, let me know (or boldly undo/rewrite).
Happy to give this article its long-awaited plus sign now. Thanks again for jumping in on this. Colin M (talk) 20:02, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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