Talk:Who is a Jew?/Archive 9

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Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, given no consensus with stale discussion and apply status quo; some supported arguments that the topics are distinct and can be differentiates as the articles develop: "distinction between the halachic/secular question of Who is a Jew and the broader concept of association of the self with Jewish identity" for example. Klbrain (talk) 15:22, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

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I propose merging Who is a Jew? into Jewish identity. These appear to be two article covering much the same thing, one substantial but inappropriately named and the other appropriately named but insubstantial. There seems to be no basis in reliable sourcing for the title of "Who is a Jew?". The only pages titled as questions on Wikipedia are ones that repeat verbatim the title of a work or media form (in italics), such as Who Is Ayn Rand? or Who Is America? That is not the case here, where, instead, it just appears to be a distinctly unencyclopedic and non-descript naming format has been chosen for material on identity that would be better hosted at "Jewish identity", which remains impoverished as a page presumably because the relevant information is instead sitting under the odd question title instead. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:20, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I would support this merge; the current title is very unencyclopedic, and I am surprised it has managed to last as long as it has. QueenofBithynia (talk) 22:16, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Support the merge as well. The question form is catchier but doesn't really fit with Wikipedia's article title style as you have said. --Dan Carkner (talk) 00:45, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I also support. I came here just after seeing this title. Jewish identity makes far more sense. Captchacatcher (talk) 16:06, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I can only say that the question in the form it is asked in the main article here is indeed a question that is discussed and debated often among living Jews, both in the diaspora and in Israel. I am pretty sure that it is also part of the title of several books and studies on the issue of contemporary Jewish identity. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 19:11, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

It seems prevalent in the external links (including a bunch of religious websites and blog-ish posts), presumably by cherrypicked design, but almost absent from the actual sources - except for a handful of generally unreliable sources such as the Jewish Virtual Library and Judaism 101, which would ideally not be referenced in the first place, and should go. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:52, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: There are plenty of titles which would be suitable and I don't strongly object to a merger. However, I support warshy about the prevalence of the phrase in good sources. I found many on my computer without help from Google. Ben-Rafael, Jewish Identities, uses it more than 30 times in question form (and that book is on precisely the topic of this article). Mintz, The Relationship of Orthodox Jews with Believing Jews of Other Religious Ideologies and Non-Believing Jews has several uses ("The 'Who is a Jew?' debate is a classical example of this question", etc). Waxman, The Pursuit of Peace and the Crisis of Israeli Identity: "the perennial question of 'who is a Jew'", etc. Walzer (ed.), The Jewish Political Tradition: "Who is a Jew? isn’t only a contemporary question; it has been a central issue in Jewish life since the Babylonian exile...". Encyclopaedia Judaica uses it more than 30 times across many articles (about half with a question mark), including as a subsection heading and frequently as a topic indicator in quotes (such as "his party’s attitude on the question of 'Who is a Jew?'"). Multiple journal articles use it as a topic indicator, such as Frydman-Kohl, "Covenant, conversion and chosenness: Maimonides and Halevi on 'who is a Jew?'", Judaism 41/1, 1992, 64–79 and Reiss, "Who Is a Jew? The Rhetoric of Religion," Hamevaser (May 1988). Overall I think the existing title has a good case for being the COMMONNAME for the topic. Zero^talk 23:30, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

The point remains that Wikipedia/encyclopedia titles (or even section headers) are not typically phrased as questions unless repeating verbatim the title of a work that is phrased thusly. I don't deny that the question has been raised or repeated, merely that it does not rise to the bar necessary to overturn the standing precepts on page titles. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:04, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support merging "Who is a Jew" into "Jewish Identity", since both articles refer to nearly the same thing. The halachic question of "Who is a Jew?" can be given a section of its own with all the sources relating to this important topic.Davidbena (talk) 00:26, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

  As a secular American Jew, I wholeheartedly agree. In my opinion, posing people's identities as a question is inherently bigoted; for example, the so called "debate" about transgender/homosexual/non-heteronormative identities. People's existence, experience, & self-identification is not a 'question' up for debate; this is the lived experience of many of us. Practice compassion while discussing these subjects. 209.150.231.44 (talk) 01:31, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support I am not Jewish, but I believe that this page should not be an anomaly when it comes to page titles. "Who is a Jew?" differs from the other page titles with question marks in them because it is not about a single work with a question mark in its title, so I feel that a question mark title should not be used here. Instead of merging this page completely with Jewish identity, could we instead use "Definitions of Jewish identity" or something similar? SnappyDragonPennyroyal (talk) 01:55, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
• Do not Support Likewise I am not Jewish, but I found the article by itself to be useful. That said, I do take the point that the title as it stands can be viewed as unencyclopedic. Perhaps the solution is to rename the article, as suggested above by Zero and Snappydragon. I especially like the suggestion by Snappydragon, namely, a title "Definitions of Jewish identity". HistoryEditor3 (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2022 (UTC).
• Oppose because the topics are not the same. A check on Scholar for "Jewish identity" shows that this topic is broad and multifaceted, including what it meant to be Jewish in ancient Rome or in the Hellenistic diaspora, right on through history from the Middle Ages to the Renaissance to the evolution of the modern Jew, questions of assimilation in Europe, philosophical, sociological, psychological, and religious analyses, and studies of Jewish identity by country. The topic of who is a Jew, is much narrower and and accordingly has far fewer results (6,980) of which about half (3,480) don't mention 'Jewish identity' at all. Examining the results, they seem to be a mix of religious and legal articles, with many of them related to the question of immigration to Israel, in which the title question is crucial in determining whether or not someone claiming to be Jewish can gain Israeli citizenship more rapidly (e.g., wrt the Law of Return). Finally, per this ngrams chart, the two topics were once similar in frequency, but "who is a Jew" has remained relatively stable over time, whereas studies of "Jewish identity" have taken off dramatically; if they were the same topic, there wouldn't be this consistent difference year after year and decade after decade. The two topics are related, but have vastly different aspects of time, place, and focus, and should remain separate articles. Mathglot (talk) 00:24, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

  I find this argument convincing, and strongly oppose the proposal. I get that most Wikipedia articles aren't titled after questions, but there's no policy that says they can't be. Titling policies are at WP:CRITERIA, and I believe this question-form is the common term for the topic. The two topics are fundamentally distinct: one is about, well, "Who is a Jew?", and the other is about what it means to be a Jew, or what it's like to be one (Tikkun olam should definitely be mentioned in the latter, if someone has the time to look for sources!) They're just not the same thing. I'll note that I'm Jewish, and feel pretty strongly about this: I can envision what each article would look like if expanded to two FA-class ~80kB articles, and they would have very little redundancy, if any, and would not qualify for any of the WP:MERGEREASONs.

  Describing "Who is a Jew" as bigoted is IMO completely out of line with sources. It's a notable subject matter of interesting scholarly and rabbinical debate. This article doesn't advocate anything; it just reflects historical and current debates among Jews, and differences between various traditions of issues that matter to conversions, marriage, ancestry, and more. DFlhb (talk) 13:54, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose I believe there is enough distinction between the halachic/secular question of Who is a Jew and the broader concept of association of the self with Jewish identity to justify two pages. One refers to the various opinions of who is Jewish among Jews and in regards to legal definitions and the other refers to how people who consider themselves Jews have lived their lives throughout history. I also think the notion of the question mark being "unencyclopedic" is an extremely strange nitpick and irrelevant to the discussion of a merge. Paragon Deku (talk) 19:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support They cover the same topic and a title like "Jewish identity" is more encyclopedic in tone than "Who is a Jew?". ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.