Talk:Westlake High School (Texas)

Page Edittig

In the future, could everyone explain why they are making changes? I did go to westlake and I know there are millions of reasons why students love their school, but it would be good if you didn't add more information without sources. Also, I went to a lot of trouble to arrange things in a logical manner; it would be nice if it could be maintained. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redraiderbum (talk • contribs) 19:10, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Notable Alumni

All of them are athletes? Come on, surely Westlake has produced some other notables. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.110.217.66 (talk) 02:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

(as of 2/11/15) Ross William Ulbricht, 2002 alumni and creator of Silk Road, should be included on notable alumni as he has now been convicted and was, at one point, worth in the billions of $USD through his bitcoin valuation. He is undeniably as notable as others on this list. It's a bit silly that he is consistently removed at this point given the evidence and his seven felony convictions. http://www.statesman.com/news/news/local/man-with-austin-ties-charged-with-running-vast-und/nbDm4/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/04/silk-road-convicted_n_6616128.html http://www.wired.com/2015/02/silk-road-ross-ulbricht-verdict/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/04/technology/silk-road-guilty-ulbricht/

Possible Copyvio?

This text sure does sound like it's pulled off some brochure. If this is the case, it needs addressing. If it's not the case, the article still reads like an ad. -Seidenstud 23:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

If you didnt go to school there you have no idea.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.167.235.141 (talk • contribs)

I Must Say that this depiction is 100 percent accurate. And, while it may read like an advertisement it shouldn't because having gone to Westlake myself I can testify that it forces you to live in an utopian world where its often difficult to imagine a world in which every ones dad is a doctor and everyones house is at least worth 1,000,000+. The Association of Prepatories once argued that Westlake "out prepped the prep schools". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.25.156.81 (talk • contribs)

It's Ok. Everyone else is just jealous that people from Westlake actually learn how to write correctly. Since when is writing an advertisement bad? It may have given your dad a job and kept him out of prison. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.25.151.190 (talk) 20:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Inaccurate Advertising

Criticism will need some sources cited. I do not have the time to fully research this school (that I had never heard of until seeing this article), but I will, for now, go through and remove some of the violations of WP:NPOV and WP:V. These violations include content such as "proud tradition of excellence" -Seidenstud 04:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Both of these comments are completely ridiculous. Westlake donates almost 40% of what it should be receiving due to Robin Hood.

Actually, in the Budget for the 2008-2009 school year, Westlake was forced to give away nearly $55,000,000, which was around half it's revenue (48%). 66.68.160.251 (talk) 00:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Response to Other Comment

And in response to the "if you didn't go there you have no idea comment," I posit instead that "if you did go there you have no idea." Meaning, of course, that Westlake students are sheltered from the real world and are brought up in a homogenous culture that does not reflect the true struggles, or honest triumphs, of the real world. I know many very nice Westlake former students, but it has been my experience that they truly are not taught through Westlake's curriculum nor its student composition "how the other half lives," to quote Riis. It is also important to note Westlake's academic "success" in comparison to Austin's schools, particularly the magnets. While Westlake may have ranked 72nd at some point, LBJ High School, NOT an affluent white haven, ranked 17th best high school in the nation in the same ranking system. Also, LBJ has outperformed Westlake in National Merit Scholar numbers for years. So even with all of its utopic perks, Westlake cannot ascribe such unbridled academic success to itself when, just a few miles down the road, with no money and rampant crime, LBJ's students still outperform Westlake's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.32.24 (talk • contribs)

Responding to the above comments: Westlake's academic prowess is not based solely on financial endowment. Westlake and Eanes has a culture that values education. Eanes schools are a selling point for parents moving to central Texas. They are willing to be taxed at the highest legal rate to support good schools, even when more than half of all tax revenue is distributed to poorer districts. Fully 60% of Eanes revenue is taken by the state, a percentage that increases each year. Yet Westlake continues to be one the best schools in the nation.

You want to talk about LBJ? Don't make me laugh. That is the most internally segregated school in Travis County, where all the magnet students occupy AP classes and students that go there as a result of geography do not. The only interactions are in the hallways. Moreover, you are comparing a magnet school for a district with many times more students to draw from, with a school that is the district's only high school. Provide the source saying LBJ is the 17th best school in that nation. I can point to Newsweek's 2006 list showing Westlake as the 71st best, with LBJ coming in a paltry 166th. Austin High comes in at 447.

The argument about a sheltered high school is weak. People in any environment can choose to insulate themselves from the world, or seek it out and learn. Athletics, forensics, UIL, Model UN, band, and orchestra are activities widely participated in at Westlake that bring students into interactions with others. Citing your own anecdotal evidence just exposes how little you actually know, thus falling back on stereotypes.

Just FYI: LBJ High was ranked higher than their socio-economic status would suggest because they are the magnet program for AISD. Even though it is in a poor neighborhood, hundreds of students from all over the city go there for the exceptional magnet program. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redraiderbum (talk • contribs) 19:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Response to Westlake Rebuttal

Suffice it to say that this discussion has grown outside of simply Westlake vs. AISD. Please go to college and take a sociology class that involves reading books like Ain't No Making It, Random Family, Jocks and Burnouts, American Apartheid, and Streetwise. Why do you think Eanes families value education? Do you think others don't value education? Could it be not that Westlake parents have an inherent superior moral character, but instead that working class families do not have the time for parents to read to their children before bed, coddle them in their elementary school projects, and must instead work long hours? The children of working class families do not posess the same cultural capital that the children of upper middle class families do. Of course all families value education--it's a core characteristic of the mythic American Dream and the appearance of an American meritocracy. But not all families can enable their children to succeed, as Westlake parents can, despite how much they desire solid education and school success.

What I'm saying is that despite the individual experiences of Westlake students, the success they enjoy is predicated on segregation and classism. Why is Westlake almost all white? Because the neighborhood is all white. Why is the neighborhood white? Because of white flight from urban areas and the federal policy of guaranteeing loans only for whites after WWII, thereby excluding minorities and the underclass from the pampered, suburban American dreamland. Why can't these innercity students all just do well in life and buy into areas like Westlake? Because the innercity schools don't have the funding to make up for the lack of cultural capital passed on from parents to children. Why don't they have this funding? Because all the big property tax dollars go into segregated bedroom communities who have created their own municipalities in order to hoard tax dollars. Why doesn't the state reapportion this money? Because when it tries to do so, all the wealthy people, who have the power in society, cry about it. But what about Robinhood legislation, doesn't that take money from Eanes and give it to AISD? It used to, until people cried about it. But wait, doesn't Eanes still give away a ton of money to the state? Yes, all districts do so that the state can waste it on beaurocracy and adinistration costs and pork barrel jobs that keep the friends of those in power wealthy.

It's not just Westlake, and it's not anecdotal evidence; it's the greater structure of inequality in our society. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.68.122.186 (talk) 22:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC).

Responding to this comment: Your line of argumentation has taken you away from attacking Westlake's academic status, which I show as excellent, into excuses for why it is excellent. No where do you defend your original assertions that some AISD schools are better than Westlake. Do you believe all families value education equally? Because if you do, you have already contradicted yourself by saying LBJ students "without the utopian perks of Westlake" outperform Westlakers, implying that they are somehow harder working or value education more? (On that note, the fact that you describe LBJ as a "few miles down the road" when they are on opposite sides of the city makes one wonder whether you have actually been to Austin.) One can throw around platitudes and say "Americans value education, hard work, discipline, honesty, integrity, etc.", compare with another nation who says their citizens value the same things, and come to the conclusion that there are no cultural differences. National groups break into a million different sub-groups, near the bottom of which is the family unit. Some families value other things besides education, even in Westlake. Things like family, money, athletic achievement, duty to country, and religion. Do you really believe that all families value education the most, even when in conflict with these other values?

I have seen evidence that Robinhood is ineffective, but not because money is wasted on a huge bureacracy that gives pork barrel jobs to the rich. The rich and powerful are not working as civil servants. Civil servants in Texas are relatively poor. The reasons I have seen that Robinhood is not working is 1) there is not enough money being spent overall on education in Texas, 2) the money is mismanaged by local districts, and 3) money can only go so far to raise education performance.

Finally, you said in your first post that Westlake is a horrible environment, as "Westlake students are sheltered from the real world and are brought up in a homogenous culture that does not reflect the true struggles, or honest triumphs, of the real world...it has been my experience that they truly are not taught through Westlake's curriculum nor its student composition "how the other half lives." Given such an environment that supposedly handicaps Westlakers' success in the real world, perhaps this amplifies their very real sucesses? On the other hand, your last post mentions the "suburban dreamland"

Merger with Eanes Independent School District

This seems like a reasonable thing to do, as just about half of the text of Eanes Independent School District is about Westlake, and it is more or less overlapping content. Having the two articles just leads to inconsistencies, etc. Anyone have an opinion about this?

-Seidenstud 21:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

If this is to happen, then ALL schools within ALL ISD's should also be merged into one page. I believe this is going to lead to some very large pages. Eanes is a 'known name', but Westlake has its own reputation - for better or worse, as some have mentioned. I would rather see the information grow around both Eanes ISD and Westlake HS and have these pages linked, rather than made the same. It will also slow the confusion down when someone searches on 'Westlake' and sees the article 'Eanes ISD'. There will be more searching on Westlake HS if the popularity of Friday Night Lights rises, as the Westlake team is the model for the 'Westerby Chaps' in the series.

My $0.05 on the subject.  :-) -- From an Eanes ISD/Westlake resident

Merger with Eanes Independent School District

Most other highschools have wikipedia pages. For example, Austin High and Bowie do. But there's also too much information on the Westlake page to merge it with another page covering other schools as well.
As far as Westlake's reputation of being rich and preppy, we ARE rich and preppy. I happen to attend Westlake and, from what I can see, we are some of the whitest richest streetsmart-less people in existance. I've seen people take out a wad of 50 dollar bills and lay them out on a counter of a crappy resturant in downtown San Antonio, which strikes me as just a bit stupid. People here call themselves "ghetto" because they live in a .5 million dollar house...but it's on Cuernavaca. A few weeks ago we had "country club day" as a theme for one of our pep rallies. Honest to God, I couldn't tell half the people were dressing up. We are pathetic. I've seen students AND PARENTS wave credit cards and cash at other teams during a football game. We think we're better than everyone else and that simply isn't true. No Wikipedia article, whether it exists or not, can change that. This article does not mean anything. Nobody judges a school by its Wikipedia article. I promise. We've already been judged and stereotyped.

--Whs09 13:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

While I am aware that many other highschools do have articles, it seems that this is its own case. Most other high schools are not in such a notable district, that arguably merits its own article, yet whose article consists of a sub-article on the highschool in question and little more than a list of the other schools in the district. Perhaps merging the District article into this one would make more sense, but either way, I'm pretty sure a merge is appropriate. -Seidenstud 16:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Friday Night Lights

I have removed the unsourced line about Westlake being the "model" for the TV show. According to the Austin Chron, http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A232233, it is some other school, although reading many ghits seems to show that while Westlake has been used for a variety of reasons in the show's production, the show is mainly based on the experience of Central Texas football powerhouse schools, in general. -Seidenstud 05:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

That link is in reference to the movie, the TV show uses Pflugerville High School as the model, a suburb of Austin. The show is shot at the schools football stadium, the uniforms in the show are identical to the teams. --Holderca1 19:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Extracurricular activities

I am Westlake '00 and I don't remember "money laundering" as one of the extracurricular activities. Kids these days!

this is an encyclopedia

There are guidelines for high school articles and what belongs in them. I just took out the entire athletic section. I had tried a few weeks ago to re-write it to comply with guidelines, but someone re-added all the promotional junk. This article is not for promotional tone writing. It is not for publicizing the school, or any individual students. Please read WP:WPSCHOOLS/AG before rebuilding the athletic section. Gtwfan52 (talk) 22:02, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Pride Survey

It was here: http://files.eanes.k12.tx.us/supt/Safety/executive.pdf

But it seems to be gone WhisperToMe (talk) 05:39, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Athletics Section Revision

After reading previous comments, I have rewritten the Athletic Section to reflect a neutral POV along with listing appropriate state titles. All known state titles are listed and backed up with reference links from reputable sources. Please let me know if this will satisfy the majority who are commenting on this. Thanks (Midwest High School grad - but I got here as fast as I could!) Indyjrg1762 (talk) 15:16, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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School Newspaper section

The section on the school newspaper says the paper was founded in 1969, yet the school opened in 1971. This obviously doesn't make sense, and there's no source cited; can someone familiar with the school add information with a citation explaining how this is the case, or remove it if it is in fact in accurate? Thanks TheMrP (talk) 01:39, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Removed. John from Idegon (talk) 02:08, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

What source did you get Westlake was founded in 1971? Google? The front stone wall of the school clearly states 1969. Please restore this mistaken edit 121.6.33.243 (talk) 13:39, 6 March 2021 (UTC)WHS alum

Valedictorians section

I have included a section on valedictorians and sourced every listing to keep this material as factual record for the Westlake page as contribution to the Wikipedia project. I note John from Idegon's has taken down this edit twice, starting his opinion that it is not notable and that there are 30,000 valedictorians every year. It is unclear why this is a relevant argument regarding notability to taking down factual, referenced information. Wikipedia has categorized thousands of organizations, companies, or schools, whom may recognize members for the record to represent their institution in public, and Westlake chooses to select a valedictorian that leads their annual convocation; given the relative academic and notability of Westlake among Texas public schools (being a Texas 6A school and National Blue Ribbon School), many news outlets choose to report on the Westlake valedictorian, including the Wall Street Journal.

Further, following review of Wikipedia:SCH/AG, Wikiepedia does not specifically preclude inclusion of a list of valedictorians; each entry valedictorian is cited in an independent publication (so it is not original research, it is not libel, and does not trespass on privacy as the students already exists in the public record, and given the students are alumni, they are not underage).

Unless their is a clear violation of Wikipedia guidelines, or lack of proper citation reference, please do not disrupt the page further based on an opinion of notability. If the content or citations need to be stated as per Wikipedia guidelines, please specifically state how you propose to help us keep the article in adherence to the Wikipedia Project. With thanks 118.200.53.49 (talk) 08:44, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Your arguments are flawed. First, notability has no bearing on the content of the article. Decisions on content are based on consensus, which is determined by discussion such as this. It is up to you to convince any opposing editors of the utility of the content you wish to add, not the other way around as you posit. School article guidelines do discourage naming non notable students and staff, While naming the head teacher or principal is permitted, lists or detailed information about current or former pupils, parents of current or former pupils, administrative staff, school secretaries, current or former teachers etc. is usually inappropriate. (Emphasis added) It would likely be in your best interest to read WP:OWN. This article is not for the school. Every school everywhere every year has a valedictorian. How is Bennie in Bhopal or Bill in Boise informed by providing a list of nobodies who achieved a local honor that is a common honor? Again, whereas this school only has one valedictorian yearly, every other school everywhere also does, making it a commonplace occurance. There is nothing whatsoever informative about the school in knowing the names of the people who won that honor. It is informative about the school to know they have a valedictorian, but it is so commonplace as to not need mention. Your arguments presuppose that this article is for the school and people associated with it, whereas the opposite is true. The purpose of an encyclopedia article on any subject is to summarize what others have written in reliable secondary sources about the subject in a way that is useful and informative to the target audience which is the entire English speaking world. WP:OSE is not generally a good argument, but the fact that you do not see a similar list of valedictorians in other school articles speaks to the fact that the content is not useful. I continue to reject the inclusion of a list of valedictorians out of hand, which means you have no consensus and the content stays out. You of course are free to seek WP:DR, such as notifying the Wikiprojects listed at the top of this page, or requesting WP:3O, but I doubt that will change anything. Happy editing! John from Idegon (talk) 09:26, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

You mistakenly believe I'm not aware of the purpose or "ownership" of Wikipedia articles, and regrettably, your entire argument applies that incorrect presumption, backed up by your opinions on what is notable, "commonplace," and "important" to Bennie in Bhopal or Bill in Boise.

Valedictorians of any school, and in particular highly accredited schools, are notable and informative to others in the community whom may wish to check the record for numerous purposes, including research, learning more about the institution, journalists, employers, prospective homebuyers, or parents. If a school chooses to acknowledge certain individuals as a principal, valedictorian, or quarterback, and their achievements get cited in reputable publications, I don't buy your argument that this is a "list of nobodies" that the public is uninterested in, and inclusion in Wikipedia for the record will be helpful for others to follow.

Yes, agreement between editors is critical for Wikipedia's success (I am a long term donator and contributor), and I would equally suggest you to revisit the same reference you sent to me. I'm sure your work as a wikipedian is generally helpful to the project, but removing inclusions should be done judiciously, and taking down my properly cited inclusions twice based on your opinion is inadvisable per Wikipedia guidelines, especially as they were cited the second time. Let's allow Bill and Bennie decide...118.200.53.49 (talk) 02:48, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

It is well-established consensus that we don't list non-notable students by name. Valedictorians are of interest only to their particular school, or more likely, only to their particular class. If you think any are truly notable then WP:WTAF, and provide independent, reliable, secondary sources showing their notability in those articles. The general list of valedictorians should not be included. Meters (talk) 03:29, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Meters, I'm wondering if our IP colleague here doesn't understand that notability isn't equivalent to the commonplace meaning of notable? It doesn't mean important or famous or accomplished or anything like that. It means the subject has been covered widely and in detail by reliable, secondary sources that are totally independent of the subject. So, 118 etc, can you provide at least three sources for each individual that are not connected to the person, an employer, a school they attended (including this one) or in other words that have no connection to the subject whatsoever; that discuss each individual in detail? Cause that's what it takes. And just to remind you, it is up to you to convince now both of us that this content belongs, not up to either myself or Meters to convince you it doesn't. That's how this works. Thanks. John from Idegon (talk) 03:58, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Likely. It's a common issue. With very limited exceptions (the sources must show that the person is clearly notable enough to qualify for an article if one were written) lists of notable people only include people with Wikiarticles showing their notability. WP:NBIO gives the criteria. High school students may be of local or school interest, but are rarely notable in the larger sense. Meters (talk) 04:08, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Let me give another real life example. This school has been through at least 4 wars. It is very locally important to recognize any alumni that died in those conflicts, and I can only pray your school hasn't had to deal with that. The school I attended in Indiana has been around since the late 1800s and hence has been though twice as many wars. Yet you will not see listings of alumni that died in war in any school article. There have been approximately 3 million US boys (and a few girls) that have died in armed conflict since the beginning of public education circa 1850. Locally, their names are very important. On the scope that this publication serves however, their names are meaningless. That's why we do not mention them and the same applies to valedictorians. Just a note: until you or someone else make arguments that address Meters and my objections made by arguing from sources and citing policies that support your position, I'm done. It remains on the one wanting the content, which is clearly out of guidelines, to sway the opposition. John from Idegon (talk) 04:27, 2 May 2019 (UTC)