Talk:Western culture

This article seems biassed and inaccurate.

For example the following statement: “ Christianity laid a stress on the inward aspects of actions and on motives, notions that were foreign to the ancient world.” - is wrong. Both Buddhism and Hindu philosophies has a central concept of actions, motives and consequences called karma, which is an inward aspect concerning the individual. The Christian notion of reaching commune with god can be likened to the Buddhist enlightenment, or liberation from the cycle of suffering existence, although the similarity cannot be taken far. In both cases the individual self or ego is overcome, which is a new irreversible state of existence. 49.198.107.1 (talk) 02:43, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Philippines

It looks like an edit war is brewing and I think it is time to bring the discussion to the talk page, rather than trying to have it in the edit summaries. The discussion ought to be based on what reliable sources say - not our own opinions. It's probably worth taking stock also of the comments in the terminology section of the article "Since the context is highly biased and context-dependent, there is no agreed definition of what the "West" is." There's also a question about why we're singling out the Philippines in particular - the lead can't become a list of every country in the world that counts as "western" @Keroscene777:, @Wowza5005:. Furius (talk) 12:54, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello there @Furius. I agree with you on this matter. It does begining to be an edit war. However I noticed @Wowza5005 behavior on the matter is not very professional and that we may be dealing with a vandal. I honestly gave a reliable sources for my edit. And research about it. On the other hand When you asked @Wowza5005 to give a source, what he gave is the article (https://www.csub.edu/PacificRim/countryprospectus/culture.htm) An article which basically proves my point, instead he added his own interpretation:

-"The Philippines is a culture in which East meets West. The Filipino people have a distinct Asian background, with a strong Western tradition" Plurality language is not Western, ethnicity is not Western, and most cultural symbols have been derived from both Asia & Europe".

These are very fallatious and ignorant of the what the Philippines is. Filipinos do speak English for commerce and historically speaks Spanish and does still have creole ethno linguistic group called Chavacano that is based on Spanish and local languages.

And about the ethnicities, Again, I made my point, we are talking about CULTURE and not PEOPLE or RACE, that is why this article was titled "Western Culture" something that could be practiced by any people that have it as a cultural tradition regardless of race from which they inheritted it albeit colonialism, immigration or influence. Any race of America or Australia wether it is African or Asian also practice these cultures in forms of arts, architecture, music, poetry, dance, philosophy etc as part of the America and Australian society which practice these as a cultural traditions. @Wowza5005 argued that "...with countires like the US and Australia, the entire population was imported from Europe" which is wrong! The entire population of US and Australia are not from Europe, they are multi Ethnic groups of people living in US and Australia. But these are the kind of fallatious arguments we are dealing with are we?

Another thing @Wowza5005 brought out is that "...If you were to accept the Phillipines as Western, you must accept Africa too." There's a lot of African countries. And yes, a lot of them are westernized. South Africa and Liberia's culture for example use traditional dress, music, dance, arts, architecture etc. that are based on from west albeit undergone local lenses like the Philippines. So to a varying degree, yes.

My main point here is the Philippines, although with a majority of population originated from Asia. Those same majority, especially the Christianised Lowlander natives population, their belief and practices stems from what they inheritted from the West i .e Spain and Americas (North and South). Albeit undergone evolutions from the local lenses but western based nevertheless. Cultures always undergone local lenses when being adapted by another culture. For example. The early germanic tribes, when they adapt Roman cultures, it definitely undergone their local sensibilities, yet, that doesn't mean they are not Romanized. History tells us they are indeed, Romanized, especially the Franks and the Goths. Another example is, again, Ptolomaic Egypt being labeled as Hellenistic, even though the majority of populations are still local and traditional Egyptian beliefs are still preserved, but they are nevertheless Hellenistic. This is the exact same situation that happened to the Philippines. The lowlander people who are the majority of population are christians Those people historically, (before modernization) like the rest of Europe and America, don't practice any other arts, besides that of Renaissance, Baroque, Classicism. Their traditional music mostly based on Classicism and Spanish guitar/randolla(see: Marcello Adonay, Ernesto Vallejo, Francisco Buencamino). and this goes on and on.

I'll leave this with one more thing, please watch "Old Manila Castillan Memoirs" and "Manila: Queen city of the Pacific" on youtube and tell me they are not western, honestly there are more books I can recommend or you can research on your own. Keroscene777 (talk) 14:35, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

That's very long, but I tend to agree (https://www.csub.edu/PacificRim/countryprospectus/culture.htm is not a reliable source, regardless of what it says, since it isn't peer reviewed). Furius (talk) 17:29, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the ham-fisted edit summaries, and I agree that the source is poor. (By the way, I am not a vandal @Keroscene777) I think we should take a step back and analyze what this article is even trying to reference. The first line of the article describes Western culture as "the heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, belief systems, political systems, artifacts and technologies of the Western world". So, one by one, does the Philippines fit the bill?

1: Social norms

The Philippines has several differences with Western culture in social norms, such as the opinions towards eye contact, the "pagmamano" a uniquely Filipino greeting. (https://theculturetrip.com/asia/philippines/articles/your-guide-to-filipino-gestures/)

2: Ethical values

There are many differences inside the ethics of Filipinos. For example, Filipinos have a unique cultural sense of self (see Loob for more information) which greatly resembles neighboring countries cultures, like the Indonesian concept of batin. (https://web.archive.org/web/20160303014152/http://www.crvp.org/book/Series03/III-8/contents.htm) <-- from Loob article

Additionally, their cultural tradition loosely analogous to stoicism, Bahala na has resulted from the reaction to the colonization of the islands, from the perspective of the Filipinos, not the Spanish. This is in contrast to the ethical systems created in the United States, Canada, Australia, and South Africa, which were created not as a reaction to colonization from the perspective of the colonized, but rather the colonizers.

3: Traditional customs

Most of Filipino traditional customs are based on the merging of "Western" and "Eastern" cultures, and a great example of this is marriage. They might hold the ceremony in a Western church and swear on the Western bible, but the bride might wear the Baro't saya and the groom the Barong tagalog. Another example of the merging of cultures is in funerals, where traditional Chinese practices show up in Filipino culture, such as the practice of burning material possessions so that the dead might acquire them in the afterlife. (https://journals.openedition.org/archipel/288 <-- see paragraph 63)

4: Belief systems

Although Christianity (specifically Catholicism) is incredibly popular in the Philippines, religion is not all there is to a cultures belief systems. There are also many uniquely Filipino superstitions, including the ones involving pregnancy, money, and death. (http://www.philippines.abouttravelingtheworld.com/philippines-culture/customs-of-philippines/philippines-traditions-and-beliefs/)

5: Political systems

For this point it is hard to deny that the political systems of the Philippines were heavily influenced (if not directly created) by Western powers, but it should be said that this is not at all a unique situation among Asian nations (See Japan, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc.).

6: Artifacts

Artifacts are unique, as the wealthy do produce a disproportionate amount of them, therefore many Filipino artifacts can be linked back to the Spanish elite. That being said, that does not mean there are no traditionally Filipino artifacts, such as the ancient Hindu relics like this golden 'kinnari'.[1]

7: Technology

Since the Philippines was colonized for so long, you could say anything produced during that period was "Western technology", and most scientific institutions were brought to the Philippines by Europeans, not created internally. I will admit, the Philippines does (mostly) have a Western technological culture.

I think I have demonstrated of the 7 aspects of Western culture referenced in this article, 3 of them are clearly created through heavy mixing of both Eastern and Western cultures, 3 of them are created through at least moderate mixing of Eastern and Western cultures, and 1 is mostly created through Western culture. I believe that this clearly shows that the Philippines does not exhibit sufficient Western cultural integration to merit including it in the first paragraph of as one of 3 examples of places that are "strongly connected" with Europe, and as prime examples of exported Western culture.

A direct response to @Keroscene777 and explanation of my edit summary is included in my talk page. Thank you. Wowza5005 (talk) 09:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Germanic influence

I get that ancient greece and and ancient rome laid the foundations for western culture, but in what way has germanic culture strongly influenced western culture, as to be on par with greco-roman culture? I know there are minor influences, but I fail to see how it strongly influenced western culture, apart from the romanticized and mostly fictionalized vikings in pop culture. 90.231.171.26 (talk) 22:31, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Probably the biggest impact would be the Franks, Charlamange and the Carolingian dynasty which setup western Europe as we know it. But good question on what cultural contribution that was new, not sure what that is. Elias (talk) 23:04, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I'd argue that the Germanic part is rather underplayed in this article at the moment. Just think of its influence on law, feudalism and kingship, just to name three. UlyssorZebra (talk) 06:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

What is considered psychologically normal in western civilization is defined by what is considered psychologically normal to ethnic germanic people. If romans and greeks still had control over western civilization, what is considered psychologically normal would be different from what it is in today's world. An example is that back in roman and greek times raping women was considered normal and in today's world raping women is not considered normal. In general, before the germanic invasion behaving like a psychopath was considered normal and after the germanic invasion behaving like a psychopath became considered psychologically abnormal over time. 50.45.40.204 (talk) 17:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I think you might be suffering from delusional disorder 90.231.171.26 (talk) 00:00, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Scope of Hellenism unclear

A cornerstone of Western thought, beginning in ancient Greece and continuing through the Middle Ages and Renaissance, is the idea of rationalism in various spheres of life developed by Hellenistic philosophy, scholasticism and humanism.

Does 'Hellenistic' modify just the first item, or all three? Should not be left to the reader to arbitrate this. Those buffing up the yada yada they've heard a thousand times before will make a reasonable guess, the rest won't.

Degree of difficulty: scholasticism dates back to Aristotle, but there's no page on Wikipedia titled "classical humanism". — MaxEnt 22:40, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Listicle city

For the record, here's what the lead looks like after I expanding it into note form for my own personal Wiki:

Western culture is the Western heritage of:

• social norms
• ethical values
• traditional customs
• belief systems
• political systems
• artifacts and technologies

The term applies beyond Europe to

• countries
• cultures

whose histories are strongly connected to Europe by:

• immigration
• colonization
• influence

Western culture is most strongly influenced by:

• Greco-Roman culture
• Christian culture
• Germanic culture — to some extent

The expansion of Greek culture into the Hellenistic world of the eastern Mediterranean led to:

• synthesis between Greek and Near-Eastern cultures
• major advances:
  • literature
  • engineering
  • science
• cultural foundation for the expansion of:
  • early Christianity
  • Greek New Testament

This period overlapped with and was followed by the Roman Empire, which made key contributions in:

• law
• government
• engineering
• political organization

Western culture is characterized by a host of themes and traditions:

• artistic
• philosophic
• literary
• legal

Christianity has played a prominent role in the shaping of Western civilization since at least the 4th century

• primarily the Roman Catholic Church
• later Protestantism

Judaism was also influential.

A cornerstone of Western thought

• beginning in ancient Greece
• continuing through the Middle Ages
• continuing through the Renaissance

is the idea of rationalism in various spheres of life developed by:

• Hellenistic philosophy
• scholasticism
• humanism

Empiricism later gave rise to the:

• scientific method
• scientific revolution
• Age of Enlightenment

Western culture continued to develop with:

• Christianization of European society during the Middle Ages
• reforms triggered by the medieval renaissances
• influence of the Islamic world via Al-Andalus and Sicily, including:
  • • transfer of technology from the East
  • Latin translations of Arabic texts on science and philosophy
    • by Greek and Hellenic-influenced Islamic philosophers
• Italian Renaissance

During the Italian Renaissance, Greek scholars fleeing the fall of the Byzantine Empire after the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople brought classical traditions and philosophy.

This major change for non-Western countries and their people saw a development in modernization in those countries.

Medieval Christianity is credited with creating:

• modern university
• modern hospital system
• scientific economics
• natural law
  • would later influence the creation of international law

Christianity played a role in ending practices common among European pagans at the time, such as:

• human sacrifice
• infanticide

European culture developed with a complex range of:

• philosophy
• medieval scholasticism
• mysticism
• Christian humanism
• secular humanism

Rational thinking developed through a long age of change and formation:

• experiments of the Enlightenment
• breakthroughs in the sciences

Tendencies that have come to define modern Western societies include:

• concept of political pluralism
• individualism
• prominent subcultures or countercultures — such as New Age movements
• increasing cultural syncretism
  • resulting from
  • globalization
  • human migration

Bleh! These relentless bullet lists are never my favourite article leads. Apart from the bullets, we have one good sentence:

"During the Italian Renaissance, Greek scholars fleeing the fall of the Byzantine Empire after the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople brought classical traditions and philosophy."

But that wasn't even a self-contained sentence until I split it off from an overgrown parental bullet list.

I'm not proposing any specific change here. I'm strictly on the "is" side of the is–ought problem. But maybe someone else will look at this and come up with an editorial intervention that lessens the listicle overage. — MaxEnt 22:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Suggested Edit

I would suggest changing "Western civilization, broadly defined, finds its roots in the foundations laid by Greco-Roman civilization, and the tenets of Western Christianity. It has also been significantly influenced by societal influences from Germanic peoples, Celts and Iberians, and by wider Judeo-Christian values" to "Western civilization, broadly defined, originates from the combined foundations of Greco-Roman civilization and Western Christianity. Western culture also comprises and has been influenced by other (sub-)cultures, such as Germanic, Celtic, West Slavic, Jewish, and further, non-Indo-European cultures such as the Etruscans and Ancient Iberians." This adds the West Slavs and Etruscans, whose influence matches, if not exceeds, that of the Ancient Iberians, whose influence is minimal. Further, the language becomes clearer and more definitive without changing the substance of what is being said. 2603:7000:9900:3000:ED6D:4592:2838:C921 (talk) 03:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Only Hutington's biased opinion on what's Western

The topic uses only Huntington as a reference, with his extremely vague assumptions. Both these maps don't show Brazil and Argentina as Western countries, LOL (it shows doubt, neither denies or confirms). Both countries have a Latin tradition originated in Rome, the roots of Western civilization and even more Roman and Romance character in its societies than England or the USA. These countries also have very conservative cultures, with Christianity still strong, Roman-Germanic code of law, early metrification, and both cultures are as European as those of Portugal and Spain. To further reinforcement on how the topic uses opinative assumptions from a person that never visited most of these countries; it has the absurdity of not labeling as Western some countries that are more Western in any sense than the United States. 2804:389:C03A:AF8B:0:3B:6C36:2701 (talk) 12:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The roots of western civilization are in Ancient Greece and then passed to Rome. Rome isnt the birthplace of western civilization. For sure this map its just an opinion of a person that dont even know history! So in this map there isnt even Greece in the western world that totally created the western world! I asked from the editors to change these maps but no one listens! They just put whatever they want! And im wondering too why wikipedia uses this specific map that its just someone's opinion and not a valid map from official sites! Alikakii (talk) 00:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Would help an immense amount if you cite additional sources that provide more well rounded definitions. This article isn't very good, but it's not very helpful to act as if that's our fault collectively—most editors with this page on their watchlist are likely not previously major contributors. Remsense ‥ 论 00:13, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Well i just asked you to remove the maps! The rest of the article is correct. And its funny to say that you are waiting someone to give you other sources for maps. As you found this map you can easily find and another valid map. I just checked on the internet and i found many other maps. You cant find them? You are so many editors here! Also if you couldnt do a correct work you shouldnt start this page from the start. Its like you tell me that you just checked for a map for this article and just put whatever map you found with the first try without even search more. Alikakii (talk) 00:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I think Huntington is full of it myself, to be clear. I'd like to remove the maps too, so I suppose I'll go ahead and do so. Remsense ‥ 论 00:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@William M. Connolley, I will also ask that you consider how marginal Huntington's perspective is before re-adding. Remsense ‥ 论 00:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Finally someone who understands! Also if you remove here the maps you should go to the western culture page too there are the same maps exactly. You have to remove and these maps. Alikakii (talk) 00:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll wait to discuss with anyone who disagrees—it's better to move slow on these things rather than make the dispute messier over a larger number of pages. Remsense ‥ 论 01:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I told you wrong page before. Here is the western culture. I meant to go to the western world page too there are the same maps and 3 people there also disagree with the maps! Well i want to explain to you that this map is a personal opinion so how this map can be valid? These information sites shouldnt be neutral?? These articles should be based on facts and the history books. Alikakii (talk) 01:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Reread what I said. I'm giving others a chance to object to it being removed here before I do the same across other pages, lest it all gets re-added at once. I'd rather not deal with that. We work via consensus here, and don't push through our program above the objections of others, even if we're totally right. If it's worth changing, it's worth changing carefully. Remsense ‥ 论 01:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

But there are people who disagree for the maps too and in the western world page! Alikakii (talk) 01:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Alas. Remsense ‥ 论 01:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Also you do understand that when you write in the article that the birthplace of western civilization, western culture and the west generally is Greece and then put the opposite maps its funny really. Alikakii (talk) 01:31, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, stop saying "you" as if I wrote it. I didn't. I'm not responsible for every article as it is, but I do want to make important articles better, that's why I'm engaging here, so please relax. Remsense ‥ 论 01:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

No im not saying about you im talking for all the editors generally! Alikakii (talk) 01:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Well sorry fo being a little mad. At least you are helping. The other editors didnt even care about it! Alikakii (talk) 01:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

But again you have to check and the western world page too. Alikakii (talk) 01:45, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Because whats the difference between the western world and the western culture its the same thing! Why to delete these maps here and not delete exactly the same maps in the western world page? Its not logical! I cant understand the way you think all the editors on wikipedia. Its exactly the same thing and the same maps! Just check the talk page there. Alikakii (talk) 01:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC)