Talk:Welsh exonyms

Format of the page

Good work starting the page, but the table is going to get very long and will take ages to scroll. Looking at the equivalent in other languages, they simply use a list with bullets, under headings for each country - the advantage of this is that you can click from a top list and it will take you to a particular country, under which would be a list of it's cities.

Mind you deciding how to show the UK itself might just open a can of worms!--Rhyswynne (talk) 14:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the list is going to get much bigger? I'm not sure that "Welsh versions of English, or original, spellings" can really be classed as exonyms (e.g. Lwcsembwrg/Luxembourg)? I thought an exonym had to be a 'distinct version of the original name? If you look at French exonyms the use lists does not seem to improve the format when the index just becomes lengthy. -- Maelor  22:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Maelor's point - when it is just a question of a Welsh spelling but virtually no difference in the word itself I see no reason to include it here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

It's looking good. For Scotland, Ireland and Man I have changed "native name" to "Gaelic name"; Gaelic is no more "native" there than English. Manx Gaelic is a dead language, undergoing a romantic revival, like Cornish. Scottish Gaelic is confined to a fringe (and possibly a majority of Scots are English by descent). In Northern Ireland Gaelic has not been spoken by natives for 300 years, except as a political statement. It is a pretty tongue for all that.

We could think about adding demonyms too...

LG02 (talk) 06:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, I think the exercise has now become farcical! Do we really need to know that "South Africa" is "De Affrica"? Are we are now resorting to 'the bleeding obvious'? Should I add "Rhydgwely" for "Bedford"??? -- Maelor  12:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

You can add "Rhydgwely" for "Bedford" if you like, the difference between that and De Affrica is that the latter is the Welsh name for South Africa whereas "Rhydgwely" is just a joke. And is it so "bleeding obvious" for a non-Welsh speaker? (Only if they know that "De" means "South"). And just who is going to be the arbiter of what is or is not "bleeding obvious"? "Ffrainc" is close enough to "France" for a non-Welsh speaker to have a guess what it means - so is that to be omitted as too "bleeding obvious" as well?! On a more serious and constructive note, it does raise the question of how far the list should go: several hundred names could be added for the section on places outside Britain and Ireland, geographical features - e.g. Cefnfor Iwerydd, Môr Udd, etc. - could be added. All these points need to be addressed, and a bit of courtesy would not go amiss in reaching a consensus too. Enaidmawr (talk) 20:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I am well aware of the status of "Rhydgwely", I was being cynical! I was simply trying to point out that the list will become unmanageable if every country, place and geographic feature on the planet is simply translated into Welsh! I have no intention of being an arbiter of the content of this page but am entitled to express my opinion! -- Maelor  11:10, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, sorry for biting back, just one of those nights when I'd come across some really annoying edits to Welsh-related articles! I'm not sure what you mean by "every country, place and geographic feature on the planet is simply translated into Welsh" though. I certainly wasn't suggesting being that inclusive, but it's also worth noting that many "translations into Welsh" are actually old and well-established and therefore deserve to be noted if the place is significant enought. If English exonyms can have "Civitas Vaticana Vatican City" and many similar "translations" or "adaptations" (e.g. Oostende = Ostend), why shouldn't we have Dinas y Fatican (probably as old as "Vatican City" in English)? Rhydychen may possibly be a Welsh "translation" of "Oxford" for instance, but it's found in the Mabinogi and so has a pedigree of over 900 years (Which came first - is the English a translation of the original lost Brythonic name? No way of knowing, but Rhydychen is the geographical centre of Ynys Prydain in Welsh tradition.). Enaidmawr (talk) 00:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I've read that the first syllable in Oxford is from a personal name, not a beast; if so, and if Rhydychen is a calque, the English came first. —Tamfang (talk) 16:10, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Before I call it a night, three little gems - almost at random - from the English exonym list: "Pompei Pompeii", "Rubicone Rubicon", "Siena Sienna (old fashioned)". Plenty of similar examples of the "bleeding obvious" there too (if I may borrow your expression!). Enaidmawr (talk) 00:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Maelor, in case you hadn't noticed, exonym articles consist almost entirely of illustrations of the bleedin' obvious fact that every language adapts foreign names to its own phonology. —Tamfang (talk) 16:08, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Herefordshire, etc.

There is a mass of information on Welsh village names in the Archenfield (formerly Welsh) area of Herefordshire here. But before we go mad adding names to this article, editors should be aware of the debates that have been taking place here, on the need to mention Welsh names in English Wikipedia. Some editors (not including me) may question the need for this article at all. Others (including me) will say that it needs to be properly referenced - that shouldn't be a problem, but if we can agree on a consistent and reliable source of information on exonyms it should keep everyone happy. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

If they complain it will be either because they are trolls or simply anti-Welsh. We can always point out that there are currently 44 articles in the Exonym category, including the rather wonderful List of Polish exonyms for places in the Czech part of Cieszyn Silesia and its partner List of Czech exonyms for places in the Polish part of Cieszyn Silesia (!). Enaidmawr (talk) 23:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS —Tamfang (talk) 16:11, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I replaced those Ciesyn articles … —Tamfang (talk) 02:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I suggest that a distinction be made (both here and generally) between parts of Wales that were included within English counties by Henry VIII and places that were last part of Wales in the 8th Century. The former area is quite small, easily defined, and is generally full of Welsh placenames: it seems silly to call them exonyms when most of the differences come down to the English not being able to spell. The latter area still has a few Welsh placenames, but they are in general genuine exonyms (and some of them really have a cringeworthy bardic quality to them: I refuse to call Glastonbury "Ynys Afallon" when I'm speaking Welsh, regardless of what the dictionary says). So let's define it:

• Monmouthshire in its entirety
• in Gloucestershire
  • part of the Lordship of Chepstow
    • Tidenham CP and Woolaston CP
• in Herefordshire
  • Ergyng
    • Wormelow Hundred
  • Ewias
    • Ewias Lacy Hundred (this includes one parish of Brycheiniog)
    • Ewias Harold CP and Dulas CP (the latter was formerly a chapelry of the former)
    • the Golden Valley (Abbey Dore CP, Bacton CP, Dorstone CP, Peterchurch CP, St Margaret's CP, Turnastone CP, Vowchurch CP)
  • part of Elfael (and a tincy bit of Brycheiniog)
    • Huntington Hundred
  • part of Llwythyfnwg (actually, most of it!)
    • Wigmore Hundred
• in Shropshire
  • the Colunwy Cantref of Powys
    • Purslow Hundred
  • the Lordship of Chirbury (Llanffynhonwen)
    • Chirbury Hundred
  • the Lordship of Oswestry/the Croesoswallt Cantref of Powys
    • Oswestry Hundred
  • the Lordship of Ellesmere/the southern tip of Maelor
    • Ellesmere AP and Welshampton AP (the modern CPs are very different)
• in Cheshire
  • the largish area immediately adjacent to Chester on the left bank of the Dee

The most egregious bit of this, Monmouthshire, was set right in 1974, but the smaller units still belong in the same category, and it is simply unreasonable English nationalist extremism to classify the Welsh placenames in this area as exonyms and go around deleting them from articles. 𝐨𝐱𝐲𝐩𝐡𝐞𝐧𝐵𝑈𝑇𝐴𝑍𝑂𝑁𝐸 ⓊⓉ 16:46, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Which came first?

One of the things I'm not clear about is which came first - the Welsh name or the English? In some cases, one is a translation (sometimes apparently an etymologically dubious "literary" translation) of the other - e.g. Oxford / Rhydychen, Birkenhead / Penbedw, Leominster / Llanllieni, Somerset / Gwlad-yr-haf, and I think a great many others. I don't speak Welsh so I'm reliant on other sources. Which came first - the English (Anglo-Saxon) name or the Welsh? Probably English in some cases and Welsh in others. Do we know? Does it matter? Should this be explained in the article? Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

For Rhydychen see above. Of the other three only Penbedw is "recent" (coined in the 19th century, I think); Llanllieni and Gwlad yr Haf ar both found in Middle Welsh texts. Does it matter which came first? Yes, if it's provable, otherwise not. See the English exonyms list, a great many of which are pretty obviously just adaptations into English of non-English place-names. Enaidmawr (talk) 00:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

And of course we could flood the English exonyms page with a list of all of the place names in Wales that have been corrupted by the English language! -- Maelor  12:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. Go ahead! Enaidmawr (talk) 00:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Westminster and San Steffan

Westminster, the place, isn't San Steffan. San Steffan refers to the institution of Government, just as Westminster does, by reference to the chapel of St Stephen in the palace of Westminster. Does that belong in this list? Dan Dean (talk) 22:47, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Respectfully disagree, San Steffan is both a metonym for UK government and a placename (the English name "Westminster" also functions as a short name for The Westminster executive, Westminster Palace and the London borough The City of Westminster).

Both names derive from the religious institution that the later Palace, conglomeration and borough were named for. Welsh language news reports from College Green, inside the Palace of Westminster (or just from the borough of Westminster) are often given as "Yn fyw o San Steffan" and written articles follow this same convention.

Also, Place-name dictionaries give it as such, as do the top three online translators. Conversely those in discussions against this convention (e.g. Reddit) seem to accept that they are arguing against the general accepted practice.

Cymrogogoch (talk) 12:16, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

More exonyms from Jesus College MS LXI

Here is another list. I have compiled it from Brut y Bryttaniait according to Jesus College MS LXI. All I have done is to modernise the Welsh spellings by changing 'v's to 'f's and 'k's to 'c's where necessary.

Amffibalys - Amesbury
Rhydyrafael - Aylesford
Caercynnfarch - Dorchester
Alclyd - Dumbarton
Troyaf Newydd - London
Porth Llydd - Ludgate, London
Caerberis - Portchester
Porth Rydipi - Richborough
Tre y Riw - Rochester
Caerfynyddpaladr - Shaftesbury
Caerfyddaf - Silchester
Porth Hamwnt - Southampton
Firolan - St Albans
Fyrram - Stour River, Dorset
Ynys Daned - Thanet
Caerwair - Warwick

Latin Names?

Very interesting - would be fascinating to add the Latin versions - and early Saxon - as well to see the transition from British through Latin and Saxon into English - unfortunately i know only a few but place names such Isca Dumnoniorum to Ex(ces)ter and Caer Loyw to Gloucester reveal the interaction of the language groups over time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.124.113 (talk) 08:56, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Archaisms

The article begins 'The modern Welsh language contains names for many towns and other geographical features in Great Britain and elsewhere' but lists many exonyms which don't seem to be used in modern Welsh. It would surprise me if, for example, a Welsh-language newspaper/site referred to Colchester as 'Caercolyn'. I'm happy to be proved wrong but I think current terms should be distinguished from obsolete ones. Guyal of Sfere (talk) 20:37, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

We claim Yr Atlas Cymraeg Newydd (The New Welsh Atlas, 1999) and Geiriadur yr Academi (The Academy Dictionary, 1995) as sources. Presumably any names from these are used in modern Welsh, but some placenames may have added that are not from these sources. However, most of the places are either major towns and cities or are near to the Welsh border and I suspect that there are only a few archaisms. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:17, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Lancashire "Welsh names"

Someone has added "Welsh names" for a load of places in Lancashire, which seem to have been formed by translating Germanic etymologies some of which may not even be correct. Trefannedd, Trefoffeiriad, Bryncreigiog and the ridiculous "Tref" (are Welsh speakers so attached to this small Lancashire village that they call it "Town" from 100 miles away?)- can anyone show that these are genuine Welsh names? FWIW I'm not convinced by the Old English etymology suggested for Clitheroe which gave rise to "Bryncreigiog"; I think it might actually be a Welsh/Cumbric name to begin with. It looks decidedly like the Welsh Glyderau ("cludair", heap or pile e.g. of rocks) or possibly "clyd"+"rhiw" ("sheltered slope") both of which seem to fit the topography. As for "Trefoffeiriad", well Prestatyn is exactly the same name as Preston, is actually in Wales, and doesn't go by "Trefoffeiriad". Whoever has invented these names has been indulging in an interesting exercise (translating random place names into Welsh) but they are not genuine place names used in any language. Besides, why just Lancashire? Walshie79 (talk) 23:22, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Malvern

Doesn't this town's name derive from the welsh moel fryn, bare hill? Crawiki (talk) 18:17, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

The Alps are in the wrong place.

This page has long needed a reformat, so a big thank you to User:Starbeam2 and others for finally sorting the structure. The main issue is that the extant Celtic place-names (particularly Welsh naming conventions) tend to be topographical in nature, so arranging the sections via modern nations is problematic.

For example, the two Welsh names for the Alps, Alpau (modern), Myndd Mynnau (traditional) only appear under the France section, but 80% of the Alpine range is outside France. Similar issues exist for the hydronyms (Oceans, seas and rivers).

I wonder if the best structure would be to keep the human settlements under their nation's section, but move all natural features into new sections specified by their type rather than an arbitrary location. Other than this one remaining issue, I think this article is nearly there!

Thanks again to all that have helped. Cymrogogoch (talk) 12:35, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I support the idea of moving all natural features into one category. I'll up the ante and say that this should apply to even ones in a singular country today Starbeam2 (talk) 13:08, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Northern English place names

I have removed a lot of dubious Welsh exonyms from this article, they are principally places which have had Welsh etymologies proposed or places in the NW which seem to have had Welsh names invented, possibly by Cumbric revivalists. The only sourced name deleted was Dewsbury, which was listed as Tumpyn Glori. This is a real name, but it refers to a tumulus called Dewsbury near Llyswen, inside Wales. Boynamedsue (talk) 22:08, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Whitchurch

I've just changed the Yr Eglwys Wen/Whitchurch link to point to the entry for Whitchurch in Shropshire, not Whitchurch in Hampshire. Though it seemed an obvious correction, I hesitated because Whitchurch, Hants is on the old drovers' routes so it could conceivably have been given a Welsh name. However TfW/TrC thinks Yr Eglwys Wen is the Shropshire one so that's good enough for me. https://trc.cymru/lleoedd/gorsafoedd/yr-eglwys-wen-shropshire Electricmonk111 (talk) 10:18, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Argentina

Is a Welsh name for a Welsh colony in Argentina really an exonym? —Tamfang (talk) 23:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)