Talk:Welsh Presbyterian Church, Liverpool

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Names

First ref is the Liverpool Confidential. It has "Toxteth Cathedral, the run-down Welsh Presbyterian Church in Princes Road..." and "Focal point...was the Welsh Presbyterian Church in Princes Road. Even today its known as Toxteth Cathedral".
Second ref is just a property listing for the Welsh Presbyterian Church; it gives its alternate name as Toxteth Cathedral.
Third ref is The Independent, and it has "...derelict 150-year-old former Presbyterian church in Princes Road, known locally as the Toxteth Cathedral". In fact, the article doesn't give it any another name, that is, does not call it Welsh Presbyterian Church anywhere.
Fourth ref is the Liverpool Echo, and they have "Welsh Cathedral" in the headline and "The building, which is known as Toxteth Cathedral or the Welsh Cathedral...". They also give the proper name at one point, Welsh Presbyterian Church.

Googling, I get "Welsh Presbyterian Church Toxteth Cathedral" here and this which only uses Welsh Presbyterian Church. This has "Welsh Presbyterian Church Also known as Toxteth Cathedral". Googling on "welsh cathedral liverpool" and "welsh cathedral toxteth" gives me nothing beyond those links already meantion.

I'm not seeing "Welsh Cathedral" as being used anywhere, with the one solitary exception that it is used (with other names) in the Liverpool Echo story. This seems likely a one-off description by that writer. "Welsh Presbyterian Church" is clearly used a lot (and of course is the correct formal name) and "Toxteth Cathedral" also a lot, but I'm not seeing Welsh Cathedral. Herostratus (talk) 03:06, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, again, summarizing the above. Of the the four sources in the article:

Four use the term "Toxteth Cathedral"
Three use the term "Welsh Presybterian Church"
One uses the term "Welsh Cathedral"

And looking at Google, I don't get a whole lot of other references to the building. Of the ones I do get, they all refer to the building as either "Welsh Presybterian Church" and/or "Toxteth Cathedral", and none of them use the term "Welsh Cathedral".

I do not understand the edit summary "Also google: 'Welsh' 838 hits, 'Toxteth' 322 hits". None of the various ways of putting toegether the various permutations of "Welsh", "Toxteth", "Cathedral", "Liverpool" etc, bring me to any sources that refer to this entity as the "Welsh Cathedral".

We have many sources calling it "Welsh Presybterian Church". We have many sources calling it "Toxteth Cathedral". We have, in this universe, one single place where it is called the "Welsh Cathedral". And the person did not claim that the building is commonly called that. He just used that as his own idiosyncratic name for the building in that one article. This is not sufficient cause for us to say that the building is "also known as the Welsh Cathedral" or anything like that. Herostratus (talk) 15:48, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't used Talk before so I may be doing it all wrong. Apologies if so. Googling '"Welsh cathedral" Liverpool' gives me 840 hits. Googling '"Toxteth cathedral"' gives 327. It is therefore not true that there is one place in the universerse calling it the Welsh cathedral. Indeed, there are more than twice as many for Welsh as for Toxteth.

The figures also reveal that neither nickname is terribly common.

Footnote sources: (1) an amateur site that may or may not be reliable (2) a private company, accountable to no-one, and not even based in the same country as this church, so there is no reason to suppose any local knowledge (3) a reputable publication but of course not local (4) the only source that can reasonably be regarded as authoritative.Tdls (talk) 13:37, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're doing fine. Welcome to the talk page. I indented your comments by putting "::" in front of them. Each ":" indents a comment, and since I had already indented mine one level I used "::" to indent yours two levels. This helps keep track of when a new comment has begun.

Well, you make an excellent point regarding Google. Raw numbers of Google hits often tell us little and can be misleading. So when I Googled "'Welsh Cathedral' Livepool", I don't much care about the number returned but rather about the links returned. Well, those are good sites. I dunno, I had been Googling differently and not gotten those sites to come up. However, using "'Welsh Cathedral' Livepool" I did get many sites (this, etc. etc.) to come up that showed the use of "Welsh Cathedral" as a description for the entity. So: you were right, I was wrong, and that's all there is to it. Cheers, Herostratus (talk) 05:28, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply and for your assistance with Talk. It is a pleasure to debate with someone so courteous (many people aren't).Tdls (talk) 09:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Article Name

The Welsh Presbyterian Church (Calvinist Methodists) had quite a significant number of churches in Liverpool. These are all documented in at least one book by D Ben Rees (see bibliography in the relevant article). Most churches would have had a specific name, but many were known colloquially by the street on which they are located, such as Capel Seion in Birkenhead, usually called Laird Street. The current Liverpool churches are Bethania and Bethel, see the relevant presbytery page on the churches' website. Consequently the name used for the article & the name of the church are a) wrong; and b) imprecise - there are 3 extant Welsh Presbyterian churches in Liverpool and perhaps as many as 10-15 defunct ones (this is a listing I just found, apparently from a street directory of 1902 :

CHATHAM STREET; ANFIELD ROAD; EDGE LANE; HUYTON QUARRY (WOOD LANE); NETHERFIELD ROAD NORTH; NEWSHAM PARK; PARKFIELD, BIRKENHEAD; PEEL ROAD, BOOTLE; PRINCE'S ROAD, PRINCE'S PARK; STANLEY ROAD, BOOTLE; VICTORIA CHAPEL, CROSSHALL STREET; WALTON PARK, WALTON; WATERLOO, CROSBY

Street directories are available on the University of Leicester site. I suggest that name be changed to "Prince's Road Welsh Presbyterian Church, Liverpool". Semudobia (talk) 16:14, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]