Jump to content

Talk:Water Droplets (Sibelius)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lost autograph manuscript

[edit]

Needing some help here. Several sources report that the autograph manuscript for Water Droplets is lost and, therefore, that the piece only survives as a copy made by Sibelius's first biographer, Erik Furuhjelm [fi], who published a Swedish-language book in 1916. What I cannot figure out from the sources available to me is whether: a) Furuhjelm made a hand-written copy; or b) Furuhjelm was permitted to print the score in his book, i.e., a printed copy.

Second, it's not clear to me what happened to the autograph ... Tawaststjerna seems to indicate that it was destroyed, but his wording (or, more accurately Layton's translation) is, in my view, woefully imprecise. Here's the relevant passage:

Sibelius preserved these [his Uncle Petr's compositions] all his life although few of his own manuscripts from the time of his youthful Water-drops down to what he wrote of the Eighth Symphony survives the bonfires which warmed his old age (p. 10).

Add to this the following passage from an article by Layton, which confuses things further:

It is a small piece for violin and cello pizzicato called Vattendroppar (Drops of Water) and on the same piece of manuscript paper there is a short sketch for string quartet (p. 4).

Any clarifying information would be much appreciated. Thanks ~ Silence of Järvenpää 00:11, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Were you able to find Furuhjelm's book? If not, its here (p. 21 for score) in Finnish and here (p. 19 for score) in Swedish. I guess he must have made a handwritten copy for at least this piece, given that he recorded it in the book?—though he mentions that other melodic fragments from Sibelius's childhood were on the sheet of paper, so he definitely had at least limited access to the original. – Aza24 (talk) 03:13, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Aza24 ~ Whoa! It's amazing that you found Furuhjelm's book ... and, thus, solved the mystery! (I had no idea this digital resource existed.) From what I can piece together, I think: (1) Furuhjelm got to view an autograph manuscript of Sibelius's that had Water Droplets and a few other sketches on it; (2) He made a copy when writing his book in 1915 and which was published in 1916; (3) He probably returned the autograph to Sibelius; (4) Sibelius likely destroyed the autograph in the 1930s or 1940s when he went through his various waves of incendiary destruction; and (5) The article by Layton, that I linked to above, must be Layton citing Furuhjelm's published account (in which he describes the autograph), as opposed to Layton himself having seen the autograph (which is how I originally read it). ~ Silence of Järvenpää 00:18, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Great to hear! Glad we understand the full context now. Aza24 (talk) 19:15, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some thoughts

[edit]

I definitely agree with the B-class rating, nice work and impressive research! It's the perfect balance of information for a juvenile piece like this. Some thoughts

  •  Done I would be careful switching between "Janne" and "Sibelius" in the same sentence (e.g. Later in life, Sibelius claimed that his first composition [...] perhaps because Janne never committed it to paper). It makes them sound like different people; maybe "he" or "the composer" would be better
  •  Done Ext links aren't allowed directly in text ("published" in the lead)
  •  Done I think the opening para of History should be understandable without having read the lead, so I would contextualize who Christian Gustaf Sibelius is and who is Janne is
  •  Done Do you think the Sinfonia domestica metaphor refers to the Strauss piece? Worth linking if so. I'd also link pizzicato (and I don't think it needs to be italicized)
Hard to say ... it might be, but Tawaststjerna doesn't mention Strauss and my hunch is he's speaking generally while using a specific title. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 03:01, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done The Fazer publication info should be in the body text as well
  • Maybe "the biographer Daniel Grimley"? (perhaps for Goss as well)
  •  Done Not sure of the relevance for the "Reception" section's photo, though it is a nice photo Aza24 (talk) 02:46, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, not particularly relevant, especially to the Reception section ... that was just the place that had space. I will say that, because the article says Sibelius may have composed Water Droplets as an exercise for him (violin) and Christian (cello), and this is the only photo that contains the two! Ergo, I think it fits (Aside: the Sister, Linda, at the piano, eventually was institutionalized for depression.) ~ Silence of Järvenpää 03:23, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Aza24 ~ Thanks for your wonderful comments ... I'll get to them soon. A few follow-ups:
  • In the search panel, the image that displays is the one of Evelina. It should be the one of young Sibelius, but I don't know how to change it. Thoughts?
  • Why aren't Ext links allowed in-text? What should I be doing with them instead?
  • Am I correct that the piece is in E minor? Or is is G major?
  • It looks like in Furujehlm's book, he has two-beats per measure, and hence 24 bars total (although he only prints the first 8); but the published version of Water Droplets by Fazer, is four-beats per measure, and hence 12 bars total. This may explain why sources I consulted (e.g., Barnett, Goss) say "24-bars" but that I wrote in the article "12-bars" (I assumed they were counting 12 for Vn + 12 for Vc = 24) ... do you think this discrepancy needs to be mentioned?
  • Would this article be a solid/relatively quick candidate for GA? ~ Silence of Järvenpää 00:26, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the image, I tried adding just the image of young Sibelius and it did indeed show him instead. My guess is either the long width made the image unusable for the preview (so it resorted to the next image which of a normal width).
  •  Done Ext links have never been allowed in text, I'm not sure why but see #2 in WP:ELPOINTS. Instead I would put it in the ext links section or use it as a reference
  •  Done Yes, definitely in E minor
  •  Done My guess is that Sibelius didn't put a time signature if the original, so the reprints have just made differing editorial decisions for the time signature. It looks like a loose sentence, and 4/4 probably makes more sense. You could put a brief note that editors differ in their time signature choice(s), I don't think it would hurt.
  • Definitely a solid GA candidate, I don't think any reviewers could find much, if any, issues with it. – Aza24 (talk) 19:04, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet (talk) 16:57, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(
)
  • ... that Jean Sibelius likely wrote the composition Water Droplets, his first composition, when he was under the age of 18? Source: Ringbom, Nils-Eric [in Finnish] (1954) [1948]. Jean Sibelius: A Master and His Work. Translated by de Courcy, G. I. C. Norman, Oklahoma: University of Oklahoma. ISBN 978-0-837-19840-8. Page 8 , Barnett, Andrew (2007). Sibelius. New Haven, Connecticut: Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-16397-1. Page 5

Improved to Good Article status by Silence of Järvenpää (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 23:37, 27 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Water Droplets (Sibelius); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • Note The target article needs to be in bold font in the hook. As the target article title is in italic font, it needs to use italic font in the hook, too. Schwede66 04:50, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "when he was under the age of 18" is a rather odd phrasing and somewhat broad (the lead says ages 10–15, so perhaps "in his teenage years", or something similar, is better). Aza24 (talk) 03:01, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Onegreatjoke, please respond; these comments have been holding for over 2 weeks. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:54, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
... that Jean Sibelius likely wrote the composition Water Droplets, his first composition, in his teenage years? Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:39, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Teens start at 13, so that doesn't really make sense – I'd go with "as a young boy". article awaits full review. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 15:41, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Reviewing... Flibirigit (talk) 12:56, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
  • Cited: Yes - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith
  • Interesting: Yes
QPQ: Done.
Overall: Article passed GA nomination on May 21 and nominated within seven days. Length is adequate. Article meets sourcing requirements, and is neutral in tone. No plagiarism issues were detected. Images used in the article are all public domain on the Commons. QPQ requirement is complete. The proposed hooks are interesting to a broad audience, mentioned and cited in the article. AGF on sources I cannot access The wording of the hook might be improved by using "when he was a schoolboy" as mentioned in the introduction of the article, otherwise "as a young boy" is also sufficient. The promoter can choose. Flibirigit (talk) 13:20, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Water_Droplets_(Sibelius)&oldid=1210920847"