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Considering factors

A propos the top- vs. front-loading washing machines, I have yet to see two factors considered in any of the glowing reports about front loaders. 1.) the dirty water does not drain as well as it does in the top-loaders ("if we can go to the moon....."), and, 2.) using the front-loaders is heck on one's back. I can only conclude that it is still mostly women who do the laundry and men who design the machines! Mary Kennedy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.208.140 (talk • contribs) 00:39, 25 April 2003

1) I'd like to see documentation of the drain issue as it's not a problem in the front-loaders I've used. 2) Not a problem for people who know that they should squat instead of putting load on their back by bending down. 3) A top-loader makes it impossible to use the space above the machine and thus place the machine under a table-top or fitted kitchen for example (yes I know, Americans have huge houses not like the cramped European ones so it doesn't matter etc. - each culture their preferences) Flexfrog (talk) 02:12, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to see the evidence that front loaders do a better wash and damage clothes less, compared to top loaders. New top loaders use a computer controlled electric motor that can agitate clothes gently. Not to mention a discussion of how practical it is for a front loader to take 2 hours to do a modest size load in large homes/sharehouses, that would maybe take 30-45 minutes in a top loader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.170.255.225 (talk) 10:39, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Nothing is mentioned why users have to wait for a minute for the machine to open after the washing or spinning cycle finishes. Aixroot (talk) 08:29, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

"Tub" and "drum" machines

Maybe one should speak of "tub" and "drum" washing machines, since at least in germany exist "drum" type washing maschines that are toploaders. They have a flap at the circumference of the drum were you could put in the wash. Klaus Leiss —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.99.214.134 (talk • contribs) 13:42, 28 August 2003

Cut and paste move to Washing machine (apparatus)

This article had been cut-n-pasted to Washing machine (apparatus) without changing incoming links. I reverted the change and made the new page redirect here. See also note at Talk:Washing Machine. --PrologFan 22:24, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation

There is no need for a disambiguation page here; policy is clear on these matters. Where one definition "is clearly predominant, it remains at the general title. The top of the article provides a link to the other meanings." Wikipedia:Disambiguation This article is clearly the predominant definition; a single line disambiguation at the top of the page is in order. There is no need and no precedent for a disambiguation page. -- Essjay · Talk 18:36, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

I agree, there is also no need for disambiguation as there is no name conflict due to capitalization. The album is Washing Machine (proper noun), the device is washing machine (common noun). --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:34, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

This is all about a clothes washer, not a dish washer. Is this an appropriate inclusion in the disambiguation line? Wikidity (talk) 01:41, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

High-efficiency?

HOw about some info on high-efficiency top loaders and high-efficiency detergents? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.37.194 (talk • contribs) 07:17, 31 July 2005

As the system has some efficiency flaws, it would be wrong to mark Top-Loaders as efficient, since they have all in all a very poor washing and enery/water efficiency

Machines without a spin cycle

The "history" section describes a modern machine. I remember machines that did not have a spin cycle - just a mangle at the top. You would squeeze out the clothes in the mangle, put them in a separate tub to rinse them, and squeeze them out again. In older machines, the mangle was operated by a crank. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.10.231.229 (talk • contribs) 04:37, 10 August 2005

Another kind of no-spin was made by Bendix around 1950. It was a top loader. The steel tub had a rubber boot lining it and the lid was capable of an airtight seal. To extract water from the clothes a vacuum pump was used to evacuate the tub. The rubber boot collapsed inward, under air pressure from outside, and squeezed the water out of the laundry. In a comprehensive article about washing machines this one should be treated. Jm546 16:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Is that what my mother mentioned as her earlier washer- she said the 'power ringer' (on a machine with twin tubs) had mangled by brother's big ted and it was never the same again!Kathybramley (talk) 21:47, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Connectivity?!

More is needed in the connectivity section. I haven't the slightest clue what a washing machine would use the Internet for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AThing (talk • contribs) 05:51, 9 January 2006

There isn't but should be a 'connectivity' section, here, or referenced to some generally applicable appliances article. Some newer (2011) machines are computer controlled, and allow remote diagnostics, either by direct web connection, or via telephone audio (When the support tech asks, put your phone up to the washer control panel, and wait for the tones to stop.)
Wikidity (talk) 02:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

What about Josephine Cochran/e?

The article does not mention Josephine Cochrane who is credited with inventing the auto washing machine by many authorities. Even our Wikipedia article about her, here, says so. For an example of a university authority on the matter, see here. Moriori 20:33, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

So WP:BB edit it already! Graham 21:47, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Future of washing machines

I think articles like this(dead link) should be mentioned to demonstrate the direction where washing machines may be headed. Beowulph 19:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Technical Details

This background I have put out of an IEEE spectrum (MIT research result who compared a thumbler with the new invetion in Japan - a detergent free washing machine).

The best washing results you will get if the clothes moving absorbes the maximum of energy. That is when the slow rotating needs its maximum energy per round. Fuzzy Logic controlled washing machines do this well.

Another thing is that I found out that many people using washing machines in loundries not correctly. Therefore all detergent (liquid filled into box/hole of pre wash and main wash) runs into the "pre wash", only there used and pumped out. That is a big waste of detergent and unnecessary environmental pollution. It would be nice if somebody could write for this a subsection. It is a neccessary education task. I hope nobody feels offended.

English is not my native language. It would be kind if you correct a bug you had found.

--138.89.56.7 14:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC) Dieter

New direction in washing/drying/ironing

Nifty http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4712446.stm

Should it be included? 71.222.149.170 10:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Whites/Colours

There is nothing on here about separate cycle times or heats for whites and colours. Anyone? Jameshfisher 11:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

A problem

Since I have looked all over the Internet and My searching was fruitless I am going to ask on here even though this has nothing to do with the article. My washing machine died on me today as I was putting a load of laundry on. After the machine was done filling with water I pulled the start knob and nothing happened no agitating no nothing so I am just wondering if Anybody knows whats wrong. Here's the information from the tag. 

Manufacturer Kenmore
Model 110.4040092
Type 111
Serial CB2302282
 10    60     120
Amps   Hz    Volts


Please do not delete this as I would like to know whats wrong and if I can fix it Myself or if I have to call a repairman. 216.211.102.175 07:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Nospamtodd 00:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC) You should post your question on the newsgroup alt.home.repair. There are lots of people there (including me) who can answer your question.

or at Kenmore: Kenmore Service which apparently has technicians waiting.
I apologize, the above is a sticky $30/call commercial service.
Wikidity (talk) 02:15, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Pricing

The article states, and shows in a table, that front-loaders typically twice the price of top loaders. If the US prices in the table ($400USD to $1100USD) are correct then these are comparable to the prices of front-loaders in the UK (£180-£500, typically) and top-loaders (rarely seen) are more expensive. Presumably popular types are cheaper due to economies of scale and whilst front-loaders are more expensive than top loaders in the US they are not inherently more expensive at all. I will update the article accordingly.

Ros0709 15:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to know where people are finding front-loading washers in the US for less than $600. Practically every single front-loader starts at or above this price. Some documentation of prices below $500 would be nice because I certainly cannot find machines like this.
In general top-loaders own the US market because they cost less than front-loaders, and American consumers tend to look first at the price before the reliability or efficiency of the actual machine. If front loaders really did sell at or below top-loader prices, the front-loaders would have greater acceptance. As it is a front-loader is more of a luxury item in the US.
DMahalko 11:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Most US manufacturers simply don’t produce less expensive front loaders. Here are two front loaders under $450: http://www.rainbowappliance.com/p-XQG50QF802.htmlXQG50QF802 www.amazon.com/dp/B000J6FUZA?smid=A3K3NPATJQ5H75&tag=dealtime-kitchen-20&linkCode=asn. I disagree that the price is the major reason for popularity of top loaders in the USA. Top loaders are much faster. --N Jordan (talk) 23:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The French Electrodepot discount store's cheapest front-loader costs €160 (about $225). Pricing information should mention whether it's for the US or Europe as it seems very different. Maybe there is a new business opportunity for importing cheap front-loaders to the US? Flexfrog (talk) 02:29, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The Savage/ Washer and Dryer Manufactured by Savage Arms Corp

Seeking informationon this machine. Anyone having info can contact me at harley94dude@msn.com 71.34.65.188 19:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Hotpoint in See Also, but not in article?

Why is Hotpoint listed as a See Also reference when it is not mentioned anywhere in the article? How can Hotpoint, a relatively obscure washer manufacturer, get listed when Maytag, one of the major washer manufacturers of the past century, doesn't get listed?

I am thinking that either no manufacturer should be listed, or they ALL should be listed, possibly in a new section at the end of the article titled "Wikipedia articles on washer manufacturers", and then try to list as many as possible, such as Whirlpool Corporation, Maytag, Sears, Frigidaire, LG, General Electric, Bosch, and on and on...

DMahalko 16:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

FYI, Hotpoint is a major manufacturer in the UK (and possibly in Europe) where Maytag is relatively unknown. 109.224.140.49 (talk) 12:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

History, plumbing and drainage technical terminologies, graywater

This article could be improved by a discussion of how the development of domestic plumbing and sewerage affected the history of the modern washing machine's inclusion in the home. The washing machine article's history section barely touches on the concept of plumbing connections and says nothing about wastewater. A mention of the issue of greywater would also be welcome. Some of the basic technical aspects of a washing machine installation, such as the need for a drain standpipe and hot and cold hose bibbs (aka bibb valves), would be a valuable addition. See this page for the basics I was doing some disambiguation work on the standpipe article and came across this page on washing machines. Pat 18:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

my washing does not spin....why??? 24.191.92.139 19:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Location in the house

Given the massively detailed (maybe even over-detailed) sections about just how top- and front-loading machines work, I was surprised to see no mention at all of where washing machines "live" in the house. I'm British, and over here they're considered kitchen furniture (as in this Flickr photo - but quite often American friends I mention this to find this odd. 86.132.138.205 04:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia, the encyclopedia anyone can edit! If you see something that you think needs modification or improvement, by all means step in and fix it. The article will not improve if people just post complaints about the content. DMahalko (talk) 22:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
In American homes, the washing machine is typically placed either in a separate "utility room" or in the garage. The advantage of the British practice of placing the washer in the kitchen may be that it simplifies the plumbing (besides the loo or WC--or whatever you call it) only the kitchen has to have water pipes; in an American house, the garage or utility room must also be plumbed. However, in defense of the American practice, some people may object to the thought of bringing nasty unwashed clothes into the same room where food is stored, prepared and eaten.
In much of Europe they usually are placed in the bathroom (in apartments where the toilet and bathrooms are separate they are still in the bathroom, where the bath or shower is, not the toilet). The problem isn't the editing, but finding credible sources for this interior-anthropological study. Incidentally this article shows the North American bias of Wikipedia by spending *way* too much attention on front-loading vs top-loading (which is misleading terminology btw), not an issue outside North America. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.103.80.129 (talk) 06:26, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
In apartments, where space issues are more of an issue, washing machines are usually not provided; tenants are expected to do their laundry (washing and drying) at a laundromat. 66.234.222.23 (talk) 07:23, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

In North America, many apartment buildings have centralized laundry rooms, often in the basement or first floor of the building, but sometimes on each floor, equipped with either free or coin-operated washers and dryers. Newer apartments (built in the past 3 decades) often have wide closets near the bedrooms with room for a washer and dryer along with the necessary utility connections. --71.104.18.240 (talk) 06:57, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

In some older American communities, the washer and dryer are in the kitchen, or in a passageway between the kitchen and garage / service entrance. Where full basements are common, the washer and dryer are likely to be in the basement. In rural American communities, especially in New England, the washer and dryer are in a "mud room", which is the main entrance used by the family and friends. (The formal front entrance is almost never used.) A variant on this is the washer and dryer in a bathroom (toilet) beside the back door. In many newer, "middle class" American communities, the washer and dryer are in a closet in the upstairs hallway near the bedrooms. If there is no dryer, the washer almost always is just inside or sometimes is just outside the back door. In Germany, the washer frequently is in a bathroom, and there is no dryer; the clothes may be hung to dry in the bathroom, or carried outside, or hung on an outside line through a window. --Una Smith (talk) 04:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

In areas of the United States where winter weather is not cold, laundry appliances are commonly located in an attached garage (along with the water heater), or even in an exterior laundry room or closet accessed from an exterior door (often off of a patio or porch). --71.104.18.240 (talk) 06:57, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

In most New Zealand houses, there is a special laundry room which typically contains a large deep tub, washer, dryer, ironing board and access to an outdoor utility area for line-drying. It is usually a small room. This is changing as houses become smaller. Some new houses incorporate the laundry inside a hallway cupboard or in the kitchen as in European houses or in the garage. But many New Zealanders find it strange to wash clothes where food is prepared and since the kitchen is often combined with family living space, a washing machine/dryer would be too noisy anyway. 60.234.229.163 (talk) 23:38, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Capacity of top-loaders - terms used by manufacturers

A description of the terms used by different manufacturers to describe the capacity of their top-loading clothes washers might be helpful. I was surprised to find that "Extra Large Capacity" is the smallest size generally offered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evx (talk • contribs) 15:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Comparison of top-/front-loaders; meaningless tables

The 'Usage' and 'Washing process' tables in the comparison of top- and front-loaders seem completely meaningless and superfluous (and what is the significance of '--' vs '++' and '-' vs '+'? If it means less versus more, then this contradicts the text which states that front-loaders use less water and energy. I'll probably delete those two sections.

Destynova 16:58, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

So... Who did invent the electrical washing machine?

The article says that a man called Louis Goldenberg invented the machine. Nevertheless, I searched the net and didn't find any proof of this claim. Every reference to Louis Goldenberg as the inventor of the washing machine seems to be copied from here.

Does anyone have a solution to this problem?77.126.70.11 (talk) 12:12, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone know? 77.126.70.11 (talk) 19:52, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

According to some sources:

"In, 1908, Hurley Machine Company based in Chicago, USA brought out the modern washing machine that was powered by electricity. The Thor, as it was called, was designed by Alva J. Fisher, an inventor. This washing machine had a drum, a moving tub and an electric motor."
Searching the USPTA reveals a patent by Alva, No. 1505881 Fisher, Alva J. on 08/19/1924. Another reference reveals a single graphic of patent 966677, (also referenced by "about.com"), granted Aug 1910, which appears to be what the above quote refers to. Another patent, granted in the UK 25 March 1909 to Jensen Mfg Company, provides all the elements of the modern horizontal machine barring the motor, as does patent by Robert Woerner in June 1907 (GB190613501). The earliest horizontal rotating patent with internal ridges that I found is from Richard Whitmore of Leicester, filed 23 apr 1902 granted 12 mar 1903 (GB 190209385 orig: #9385) . Again, no motor or gears but much else is there.
Searching for Hurley patents in Google patents reveals that James Wood was granted a power drive patent for washing machines in 1921 (No. 1396082) and the only washing-related patent I found prior was a (manual) clothes wringer in 1920 (No. 1327690). Note I believe it possible that earlier patents are not searched... but the uspto search tool isn't better.
The USPTA show patent 1207142 by H. Darrow filed 7 Dec 1908 and granted 5 Dec 1916 for a washing machine driven by an electric motor. I cannot see earlier patents involving an electric motor. However, there are several patents that reference powered washing, e.g. 195096 from 1877, from which use of electric power would be a simple advance. I can see no mention of Ford Motor Company or Louis Goldenberg having any patent (although of course that's not proof they weren't involved).
Finally, John P Johanson patented one based on electrodes in patent 512970, filed 1893 granted 1894.

109.224.140.49 (talk) 13:34, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

some external links should be removed because they are spammy.

I think relevant quality links should be added - the best on the web for washing machines are:

Dear Wikipedia,

My name is (name removed) and I am contacting you regarding your website at (commercial name removed).

I’ve recently introduced many new features to my website at (commercial name removed) and am currently working to obtain links from a selection of complementary businesses and organisations like yours.

I would like to request a link to my website from the links section of your website. The format of the link I would like to request is:

(commercial name removed) is a great company to do business with; supplying a complete range of spares & parts direct to your door.

You can simply cut and paste this HTML code to produce this anchor text: (commercial link removed) is a great company to do business with, supplying a complete range of spares & parts direct to your door.

Please let me know if the above provides you with the information you need to review and consider my website for linking.I would also be willing to add a link from my website to yours to yours.


I can be reached via email at (name removed) or, if you’d prefer to discuss by phone, my direct number is (number removed).

I look forward to hearing from you, thank you in advance.


Kind regards



Chris Butt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.210.75 (talk) 13:26, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Chris. Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia. I'm afraid that we do not place advertisments in articles. Only links to sources of information or sites that are considered to be undoubtably relevant to the article in question. Wikipedia is edited by many volunteers, such as myself. I doubt that many would agree that linking to your site would be appropriate in this article. Best wishes. Zestos (talk) 03:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Rename

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was do not move. kotra (talk) 04:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Washing machine → Clothes washer — I suggest to alter the main article name to clothes washer; it eliminates errors when referring to dish washers or clothes washers.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.176.6.252 (talk) 07:04, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd go with the common usage rule here: 14 million google entries for 'washing machine' vs about 900,000 for 'clothes washer'. I agree washing machine is ambiguous, but then so is clothes washer: it could refer to a person who washes clothes, for example. --Helenalex (talk) 11:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

History

Should we remove the video that is in german? Irunongames • play 14:56, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Volume measurement: cubic feet vs IEC cubic feet?

It seems that in the US, some high efficiency washers' volumes are now rated in IEC cubic feet, which might be some sort of effective volumetric measure. I've come across two sources that identify IEC as the "International Efficiency Consortium," but I can't find any such entity online.

I've also seen various descriptions for why this designation might exist. One description involves a front loader's supposed capability be more fully filled than a top loader due to the top loader needing more water to churn the clothing. Another description suggests that top loaders never account for the spindle displacement, so the front loader is effectively greater when considering only the drum volume.

It's all very confusing and so far seemingly impossible to get to the bottom of. Still, many, many manufacturers and retailers use this IEC volume. Anyone feel up to the task of bringing the definitive word to wikipedia? --76.126.54.182 (talk) 09:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC) what ever what is this you cant evan copy and paste thats not fair i have to do a 4 page report —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.40.85.2 (talk) 15:57, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Basically IEC cubic feet are designed to allow direct comparison of Energy Star-rated front load machines to top-load machines with a "standard" full agitator. Cubic feet are an actual measurement of space in the washer. So a front load washer with 4.7 IEC cubic feet would have an actual 4.05 cubic feet. 206.248.136.79 (talk) 19:54, 13 June 2010 (UTC) docgui

Move "Washing machine manufacturers" section to "Major_appliance" article or to new article? + tidy up

I noticed that this article has a quite decent list of manufacturers and brands (albeit not quite up to date) while other white goods articles such as the Dishwasher article have none. Given that these manufacturers are more or less the same for the various types of major household appliances, it would make sense to me to have the list under a more general article rather than under each type of appliance. A link to that list from each article should be sufficient.

The "Major_appliance" would be a choice, not least since it doesn't have much content, but it can be discussed if the list should be common with the "Small_appliance" article or not. It could be argued that it should not since there are more differences in brands between major and small appliances than within each group.

Apart from that, the list itself could need some tidying up. I've done a few bits but more needs to be done, for example why do Matura and Privileg appear as separate companies while mentioning Zanussi, which is an Electrolux brand? The list is also inconsistent in that countries are mentioned a few places but not systematically. Speed Queen is mentioned in brackets after Alliance Laundry without explanation.

Flexfrog (talk) 02:46, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I have a 1939 Whirlpool electric wringer washer. What is the estimated valee of it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.255.86.80 (talk) 01:13, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Efficiency standard

The article discusses the efficiency standards and ratings that exist in the EU and USA, but it is not specified what these standards are and how they compare, which leaves the reader not learning very much. For example, it would be useful to know how an average middle of the market washing machine performed before the introduction of standards compared to now, and how one has to perform to be classed as efficient in the USA compared to the EU. Credulity (talk) 18:45, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Top loading and front loading, the article is full of personal considerations, false and incorrect statements, and wrote on a personal point of view Not objective, even less trustworthy

Well guys first of all a serious encyclopedia would rathere talk abot agitator and h-axis drum type..... Agitator washer washing matter,well just look my reviewed explanation, it is way more rich.... Second thing, agitator washers have been proved to be the best since ever, and this is well know, that is why it ACTUALLY is the main and most common type of washing machine on the planet. USA, Canada, latin america, New zealand, Australia and India tells you anything? And then there is who talk about less developped countries, so please what Russia Middle east and Africa in which you claim there more front loaders are then???? But top loaders are in less developped areas... does it make sense for you??? For me not even a child would understand this statement does not make sense! All this article sounds like a big advertisemenet for people to get a Front loader machine...... It is well known everywhere that Top loaders are always been considered the best cleaning washers, facts speak theirself, and from what I know they're spreading in certain countries of europe now as well. It was history what i wrote about Europe and his story about front loading washing machine...it got cancelled with the rest... I'm just saying now that since it is an enyclopedia all I would like to is that we all would avoid advertising a type of machine just because for a sort of a business, also this scam of HE washers in US already made his "victims" itself without you to tease them with your baloney about them, a proof is the tons of front loader you can see on craiglist of people who sell them mostly because bothered they does not wash as well as their previous top loader, it is true front loaders allows a little saving, it is not true they wash as good as toploaders...like indeed it is now wrote there! This is a thing that europeans knew since ever and always said that they decided to go for the saving rather then for the results of washing, you can see it in every european stuff, cars, homes etc... in UK actually many people import and buy american imported top-loaders because they wash better! Anyway also the comparing list is a list pulled from the air! Back up links would be nice! They're nothibng but personal and very laughable considerations and statements. All this advert about the various maytag neptune "ball maker", dyson "rope make", plastic chips washer OMG Who are those mad who claim to wash with plastic chips and a cup of water? Etc..... well let's avoid advertising and emphasize these machine,let's don't say "will do" it "does it, it does that", but maybe as i was saying, "it is supposed, it is claimed/advertised" they alone manage to cheat people with their baloney do not sart even you on wikipedia please... Anyway, to who revert my contribute I just say, okay keep your poorly written untrue contenute, and also your PERSONAL CONSIDERATIONS!!! etc.. then let's don't wonder why people don't trust in wikipedia like a real source to get real info from and students feared to write a bllshit in their raserach, teachers worldwide keep saying that Wikipedia is not reliable, will be they right??? Uh??? Just let to you comments! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.80.120 (talk) 01:41, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to utilize third-party reliable sources to make the appropriate improvements to the article. You may also want to attempt drafting those changes in the WP:SANDBOX, or create an account and subpage to work on the wording, to ensure the new wording is clear enough to be understood. The prior changes appeared to contain considerable amounts of original research, which is not appropriate. Yes, the existing text needs work; but that's no reason to replace it with new text that requires even more work. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
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