Talk:Waldensians/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

User comments

User:Dugaru left the following comment under the "Waldensian Origin Story" section. Moved to here. --Stbalbach 01:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I consider myself a Waldense in at least an ethnic sense (and am a descendant of the Valdese group), but I don't believe that the sect existed since the time of the apostles. Instead, I agree with the view that the movement was started by Waldo. Thus, I think it might be better to say, in this section and throughout the article, that "some Waldenses claim...."

For an even more comprehensive treatment, it might also be pointed out that some non-Waldenses (e.g., adherents of Baptist Successionism) believe in this apostolic succession (see the Baptist successionism entry in Wikipedia). Other Baptists, including some theologians, strongly argue otherwise.

Baptist Successionism? What's the actual title of the article? Copey 2 05:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Got it now; it's Baptist successionism with a small s. The Wikipedia search engine's case sensitivity is one of its more annoying features.—Copey 2 05:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Settled in Boston?

The gift shop of the Old North Church in Boston has a sign at the back that says it was originally a chapel/church for a group of German Waldensians who settled in Boston. There's a statue of Saint Francis there, which I was surprised to see anywhere other than a Catholic Church, but I guess Waldo admired Francis and his teachings. I don't remember exactly what the sign said, but anyone who could confirm this coulod add Boston as a settling place for Waldensians.

Yes, there was a few Waldensian of Rhenish and Hugenot extraction that settled in Boston in the pre-Revolutionary times. Also, one of the aleged reason for Ursuline Convent Riots was that a child of an Italian Waldensian was abducted and baptized as a Catholic by Italian Catholic nuns, this fact was disputed even at that time. The Waldensians in Boston never established a separated congregation for them, but joined the local protestant churches or Italian congregations (Presbyterian, Methodist, Brethren, Pentecostal). Today, there still are two congregations worshipping in the Italian way in Metro Boston, as the last remains of the Italian Waldense-Protestantism in the City on a Hill. One of them worshipped for more than eighty years on 242 Cambridge St, on the heart of the Little Italy in the Beacon Hill. For more information read the "Protestant ministry to Italian people in Massachusetts" by William John Villaume, a Bostonian Waldensian.--Leonardo Alves 15:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Vaudoir?

In cleaning up Category:Christianity I came across Vaudoir, which seems to cover substantially the same topic as this article, with a slightly differing subset of details. -choster 20:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The merger would be good, but the term vaudoir is not listed in English, French or Provençal dictionaries. I think the author meant to say vaudois.

Agree: No reason not to combine. (I'm a doctoral student in ministry)--LanceHaverkamp 22:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Vaudois ordinarily refers to dissenting Christians that lived in the Cottian alps that straddle modern day France and Italy. Descendants of these people generally participate as Waldensians in Italy and abroad and claim the historic valleys as the historic homeland of their families.

Today Waldensians derive from all regions of Italy and the Rio de la Plata region of South America. Even more, there are many Waldensian immigrants who have found a spiritual home in Presbyterian and other Reformed Protestant churches of North America.

It seems to me that Vaudois would be a useful stand alone subject that is somehow linked from the Waldensian page. A simple merge would miss some of the distinctions.

I am a member of the American Waldensian Society ( http://www.waldensian.org/ ).

Agree I disagree with the above commentator no distinction is made in French- Vaudois is just the French word for Waldensians. It is silly to have two articles for things that are the same. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 01:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

History in French

There seems to be a large history in French here http://www.regard.eu.org/Livres.11/Janavel/01.html which seems to contain lots of information which is not found here.

The index page is here http://www.regard.eu.org/Livres.11/Janavel/ it is a biography of Josué Janavel. I can see absolutely no reason why to have a separate page of Vaudois when Vaudois is just the French word for Waldensians. These pages should be merged. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 01:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

References?

I take it that some of the "external links" have actually been used as references. It would be very nice to have a clue of what came from where. I am specifically asking for a citation for the "Old Waldensian Church of Anabaptists". I cannot find any online mention independent of Wikipedia, so presumably a print source was used and should be named. - Jmabel | Talk 01:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I too wish to query why this article has no References section. This is my first visit to the page, prompted by my current reading of History of the Waldenses by J. A. Wylie. DFH 11:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Started: I have just inserted a new section where references (and bibliography) may be listed. DFH 11:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

By adding the <reference /> tag, the footnote for Ohio has now become visible. DFH 11:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

There is an article about the Waldensians on the website of the Anabaptist Network.[1] DFH 12:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Sight seeing

The Protestant Alliance organizes yearly trips to the Waldensian Valleys with good lectures and sight seeing. (tel +44 (0)1525 712348, 77 Ampthill Road, Flitwick, Bedfordshire, UK) DFH 13:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Problem with Humiliati and with Lombards

‘They absorbed a number of other groups including the Humiliati and had their own internal split and reformation with the Lombards.’

I’m moving the sentence here because I can’t make sense of it in a couple of ways. The context was the early thirteenth century, but the Humiliati were still around at the Catholic Reformation, if our article on them is to be trusted. Secondly I can’t quite work out what the second part of the sentence is intended to mean. Thirdly what do we mean by thirteenth-century Lombards? Something to do with the Lombard League could definitely make sense, but it needs clarifying. —Ian Spackman 02:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Modern Waldensians

I recall seeing some church labelled Waldensian in Italy (I think). Are you sure they disappeared? -- Error

They certainly have not disappeared. If no one objects, and if no one pre-empts me, then in August I intend to recast at least the beginning of this article so that it describes a current denomination with an interesting history rather than a historical curiosity. Grafen 23:14, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I'd be grateful to Grafen. The current article is a hodge podge of often overlapping comments that often have less credible sources. Like all of us, I'm sure, I'm trying to patch when I have time, but I'm afraid it is quite untidy at present. It requires some work to read, but the Cameron book is the most precise and scholarly work. That kind of research (not abstracts that are based upon a larger meta-narrative of Christian history), would be most useful if you care to trace the origins toward the modern. Once we arrive in the modern, however, I think we would do best to let the Waldensians speak for themselves - from their own sources - as much as possible. DiscoverLife

DiscoverLife, the comment you replied is two years old, but it is still true. I have been in a struggle to throw out much POV nonsense from this article and cite as much as I can. If you have established a fact from another source, New Advent makes for easy citing since it is public domain and on the internet, but it almost 100 years old and written with a strong POV that few people hold anymore and is improper for wiki most of the time.

If you think the article needs help now, you should have seen it a week ago. I can't agree more that this article needs MUCH more info on the modern Church and I restructered it recently to try to encourage development in that direction. I also agree it should be cited from Waldensian sources if possible. I look forward to seeing more progress here. Thank you for your help. -- SECisek 05:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your work Secisek. I'll keep chipping away at it as I have time. I'm new to framing Wikipedia material, so your expertise is welcome. - I'll try to read the date of posts more carefully in the future! -- DiscoverLife 22:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Biblical heresy?

...condemned for translating literally parts of the Bible which were deemed heretical by the Church.

This is startling. I was not aware that the Church ever regarded any part of the Bible as heretical.—Copey 2 05:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Which church? Lutherans once regarded the Epistle of James as possibly being heretical (because it says faith without works is dead). The Church also once considered Revelations as heresy, originally placing the Shepherd of Hermas in its place. The wording above looks a little odd - like it was translated from some other language - it could be that they meant to write ...condemned for translating parts of the Bible literally, an act which was deemed heretical by the church. Clinkophonist 19:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Not so odd as to mark the writer as a non-native speaker, I think. Literal translation of parts of the Bible might be an issue; translating non-canonical books and including them in scripture is another; it's this conflation of the two notions that is difficult to fathom. If the writer reads this, could he/she please rewrite this section more clearly?

Okay, yes, Eusebius regarded 2 Peter as spurious and the jury was still out on Revelation (NB, no final -s). And yes, Luther regarded James as a right strawy epistle. But neither of these views applies to the 12th century. I believe some sections of the ancient church regarded the Shepherd as scripture, but I don't believe this was ever a mainstream view. I certainly can't see in what meaningful sense it could have been in the "place" of Revelation. Do you mean it was at the end of the NT? – Copey 2 13:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• Calling something in disagreement "heresy" is also a pretty strong word. This should be investigated, and removed until then. [Paraforce]

With regards to the biblical translations. Are you sure there is not some confusion with the Poor men of Metz, a group in France who translated biblical texts during the late 12th century? The Waldnes (or Poor Men of Lyons) have not, to my knowlege, produced a venacularised bible.

Nope, the Waldensians translated the Latin Vulgate into Provençal. According to some legends Valdo hired a monk to accoplish this task. There are some manuscripts left, usually containing the New Testament, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastic, Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, in Dublin, Grenoble, Lyon, Geneve, Paris. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leonardo Alves (talk • contribs) 16:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

The Bible was translated in 1535 by Pierre Olivetan, cousin of John Calvin. An old reprint has the following information - Olivetan, Pierre Robert [Reimpr. ... Neuchâtel en 1535]. Torino. Meynier. 1986. However, the editor of Claudiana publishing house in Torino showed me a 2006 reprint celebrating the translation at the Synod gathering in Torre Pellice. I don't have time to run down the details here, unfortunately. DiscoverLife 22:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Catholic Encyclopedia?

This data is not accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians#Historical_organization

It comes from a Catholic encyclopedia. The Catholic church whiped out millions of Waldensians during the Inquisition. They should not be allowed to continue to malign them making them look like cults.

Wow.

Check out these videos on this page: http://www.theloudcry.net/arrabito.html The ones called: "Lost Pages of Christianity", parts 1, 2, and 3.

Rush4hire 07:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I hardly think this article portrays them as a cult. You removed the citations from the Catholic Encyclopedia in the paragraph metioned above with out disputing any of the facts cited. This is confusing. Great care must be taken when citing the Catholic Encyclopedia to avoid outdated or non-NPOV material. I don't know that any of the points cited with the Catholic Encyclopedia thus far are contentious. If they are, dispute them point by point and we can find a diferent source for them, or revise as needed. As for the 7th day sabbath, the citation you provided was from a work of Ellen G. White published by the company that she set up herself in her will. Self-published sources are HIGHLY dubious and not permitted in WP. If you can find a third party source that agrees, please cite. Waldensians are not confined to the history books, but are very much still around today, esp. in the Piedmont, and they do NOT practice a 7th day sabbath as your addition suggests. If they did at one time, when did they stop? Best, SECisek 08:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

7th day sabbath

Also, please note that for NPOV purposes, the opinion of Ellen G. White on the 7th day sabbath is already clearly stated in the Later history section. -- SECisek 08:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

La Nobla Leçon

This misunderstanding about the dating of the La Nobla Leçon is due to two lines in the poem where it reads:

Ben ha mil e<<erased>> cent an compli entierment

Que fo scripta l'ora car sen al derier temp.

The French philologist François Juste Marie Raynouard was the first (and only person) to attribute this document to year 1100 based on those lines. But, Henry Bradshaw decided to verify himself this documents, and lo! On the gap left by the erased part, one can still read with help of a magnifier:

Ben ha mil e CCCC cent an compli entierment

Que fo scripta l'ora car sen al derier temp.

The CCCC stands for 400, and the caligraphy matches with the symbol elswhere in the document. In context, this number is not a dating for the poem, but a prophetic warning. Also, later copies of this poem always read 1400. You can see with your own eyes in microfiche at the IDC

I hope it has been settled now.

--Leonardo Alves 16:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Ancient origins

Some researchers argue that the group has existed since the time of the apostles, a claim that is disputed by some modern scholarship. Whoever wrote this sentence could greatly improve it by adding names - which researchers and what modern scholarship? Nitpyck (talk) 20:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The whole section could use a reworking. It looks like it was written by or written to appease Protestant who want to pull the rug from under the Catholic church over the whole Apostolic succession deal. Nevermind that the Waldensians themselves say they do not have an ancient origin. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:58, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Waldensians & Calvinism?

Why is this article deemed to be within the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Calvinism ? The Waldenses predate the Reformation. DFH 11:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Evidently, the history of the Vaudois/Waldenses includes significant interaction with the later Calvinist movement, to the point where many Waldensian groups eventually came to be counted among the ranks of the Calvinists in various parts of Europe and later in early America. This need not imply that Waldensian = Calvinist, only that the histories of each movement have included "cross pollination" with the other to a notable degree. Furthermore, the tone used by John Calvin himself in his prefactory letter to Francis I of France in his magnum opus ''The Institutes of the Christian Religion'', may be taken to reflect a belief by the author that his critique of certain current trends and dogmas in the Roman Church (and the same critique from his Protestant colleagues) was hardly novel and without pedigree. This is not elaborated upon in his text, but it would be rather absurd to think that a learned man like Calvin -- a Picard by birth who eventually settled in Geneva -- would not have had at least some general knowledge of the Waldenses and their history. Thus one can conclude that an encyclopaedic treatment of Calvinism should include at least passing reference to the pre-Reformation Waldensian movement of France, Switzerland, Italy, et al. Abdiel standing 16:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

There was a point at which the Waldensian pastors were wiped out, and replacements came predominantly from Geneva. Henceforth it appears their faith reflects that of Calvinism. It even apparently reflected a shift in the dominant language spoken in services, to French. The last few remaining actual Waldensian leaders, Leger and Gilles wrote of their histories and eye witness accounts of their experiences. There was also a point at which the Waldensians were completely uprooted from their valleys, and in exile spent much of their time in the company of the Calvinists.

Wylie, James A. (1899). The History of Protestantism. Vol. 2. London, Paris, New York & Melbourne: Cassell & Company. pp. 478–479, 494–498.

Leger, Jean (1669). Histoire générale des églises evangeliques des vallées de Piemont, ou Vaudoises.

Gilles, Pierre (1881). Histoire ecclésiastique des églises vaudoises de l'an 1160 au 1643.

Firemute (talk) 05:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Catholic Response to Waldensians

Much of what is known about the Waldensians comes from reports from Reinerius Saccho (died 1259), a former Cathar who converted to Catholicism and wrote two reports for the Inquisition, Summa de Catharis et Pauperibus de Lugduno (roughly) "Of the Sects of Modern Heretics" (1254)[20]

Is there any historical reason for preferring the non-literal translation of the book mentioned in this section of the writing "Summa de Catharis et Pauperibus de Lugduno" (roughly) "Of the Sects of Modern Heretics" (1254) ? Literally, the title might be translated "Summary Concerning the Cathars and Paupers of Lyon." Ray921 (talk) 04:41, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

NPOV

Hi Ian, I'm trying to add a little balance to this article by mentioning that the founding date is "disputed" because there is a dispute between Catholic and Protestants on this subject. However you seem to take quite an offense to this. If as you suggest there is an original research in what I added, I encourage you to go ahead and point this out here. Noting that the founding is disputed, which is 100% true, seems to be more neutral than stating a one-sided position. You're welcome to take this to the admins if you so desire. Perhaps a third party on this would be beneficial, however I think we can work together to make this a good article showing both positions.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Willfults (talk • contribs)

Outdated and biased sources, such as Protestant journals and books from the 1800s are not mainstream opinion. Uriah Smith, is not a historian but a Seventh Day Adventist propagandist. Robert L. Odom's work is not an academic work, it's more denominational propaganda. We've been over this. Use actual historians, not sectarian propaganda.

The Waldensians themselves say that they started with Peter Waldo, contemporary sources say they started with Peter Waldo, modern secular academia says they started with Peter Waldo, it is only select groups with anti-Catholic biases who make any claim that they are older. Such a bias makes their work suspect, especially since it counters both the Waldensians themselves and secular academia.

The NPOV policies do not state that we present unscholarly fringe views as equal to mainstream academia. We have been over this.

I really don't get why you are having a hard time understanding this. I guess it's hard to hear reason over the sound of a grinding axe. You can't say WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:51, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Doctrine

I deleted this statement:

Despite this claim, there were no substantive differences in the doctrine of the Waldensians and the Church.

Many, both Catholics and Protestants, seem to agree that the Waldensians were against pedobaptism. Some of their 13th century accusers say they were opposed to or dropped many other sacraments as well. This, combined with their disregard for ecclesiastical authority, looks like some substantive doctrinal differences, in both their ecclesiology and in their sacramental theology. Wesley 17:02 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)

Having read the article, I am still confused about Waldensian doctrine. The main doctrinal information I found was buried under one of the other subheadings. Might I suggest a reorganization of the article, to have an early subheading titled "Doctrines and Practices" or something like that? The current structure is devoted mostly to history and origins which, in my mind, is fine but should incorporate a summation of their key beliefs.

Compare the article on "Lollards" to see an example of what I am suggesting. --Bonbga 17:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This. I came to this article to find out how they differed from the Catholic Church of the time and found nothing on what their doctrines were when the movement was founded. Xt828 (talk) 11:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Protestant

The Waldensians Or Vaudois are not Protestant. They were never apart of the Catholic church to protest it. Read "Cross and Crown" put out by Local Bible Publishers[2]. It gives the beginning of the Catholic Church as well as the Vaudois. (this unsigned comment was made by user Embroidery who has no other contribution to WP)

They do are Protestant. Check their official site. --Fertuno 01:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Some modern groups associate as protestant but the article is (mainly) about the historical -- it can be said they are protestant in the "Modern" section but not in the lead section should be left un-said. -- Stbalbach 15:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Though the root statement here seems to be motivated by a particularly Baptist reading of the Waldensians, the author is accidentially correct. The Waldensians cannot be accurately described as Protestant, for the Waldensian movement originates in the 13th century, a full three centuries before the beginning of the Protestant Reformation in the early 16th century. Valkyryn 22:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I would further dispute the citation to the Mennonite Encyclopedia, as not being a serious scholarly work. The Mennonites are part of the Anabaptist tradition, widely regarded as heretical by both Protestants and Catholics during the Reformation. The Anabaptists considered themselves distinct from both Protestantism and Catholicism, and as far as I know continue to observe this distinction. This is not an unbiased, reliable, scholarly source of the kind which should be supporting a Wikipedia article. As this is the only citation to the claim that the Waldensians are Protestant evangelicals, I have modified the introduction to indicate a more balanced approach. Valkyryn 22:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no denying that the Waldensians self identify as Protestants. I reworked. I also don't think it is fair to judge a source based off of it title. Are you famillar with the work? -- SECisek 08:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Modern Waldensians consider themselves Protestant, but the historical origins of the movement predate Protestantism by several centuries. My version was the more accurate: they are a group that came before Protestantism which has since merged with Protestantism. Your reintroduction of the Mennonite source is noted and rejected. Citations to any particular tradition's encyclopedia are almost automatically biased. Furthermore, the Waldensians aren't Mennonites. The Mennonites have a vested theological interest in identifying themselves with the Waldensians, which is more reason to not base a Wikipedia article on such a source. The Catholic Encyclopedia is similarly biased. Valkyryn (talk) 13:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Responding to the first (misinformed) unsigned comment at the top of the section (made by user Embroidery who has no other contribution to WP): OF COURSE the Vaudois are Protestant. They are even THE FIRST PROTESTANT MOVEMENT before all the others: before the English Lollards, the Hussites, and finally the Lutherans and the Calvinists, etc. (Ain't gonna list here all the Protestant movements but it is worth listing those who existed BEFORE the 16th c. Reformation). It is correct that they themselves did not set themselves apart willingly, they only wanted, originally, to reform the Church from the inside, but the Catholic church by rejecting them made them into the first Protestant movement. The same with the Lollards, the Hussites. Even Luther did not start his own Church until he became convinced that the Catholic Church could not reform. It should be made clear in the article (if a clear statement to that effect in a reference work can be found) that the Vaudois were the FIRST Protestant movement. Of course some people may quibble with the term "Protestant" and argue that term can only be applied from Luther's Reformation on, but I disagree. Contact Basemetal here 18:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The Old Waldensian Church (of Anabaptists and Nasranis) ?

The paragraph mentioning this alleged group should be removed because no reliable source attests their historical existence. The only mention of it is this self-published author. On Google, all references are copies from the wikipedia. Therefore, it should be deleted. --Dagglio (talk) 12:42, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, delete it. Contact Basemetal here 18:02, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

First Protestant movement

It would be useful, in order to stress the importance of the Vaudois movement in the context of the early stages of European Reformation movements (Lollards, Hussites, etc), to state explicitly in this article that the Vaudois formed indeed historically the first Protestant movement. Of course this statement has to be backed with a reliable source but I'm convinced there are such sources out there because it is most likely this statement is in fact correct. If you do find a statement to that effect in a reliable source please add it to the article. Thanks. Contact Basemetal here 18:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Right now at UMass Amherst I'm doing a thesis project on the Waldensians (focusing on the roles of women in the movement), and I can tell you that while they did influence the Lollards and Hussites, they were definitely NOT proto-Protestant. They essentially were Catholic in doctrine, but were excommunicated due to their preaching and Scripture translation. They did subsequently challenge the authority of the Church and established themselves as a counter-church, but unless you're going to consider groups like the Cathars Christian, I would not consider establishing a counter-Church to be proto-Protestant. The Waldensians could be seen as an early example of, and by far the longest lasting, challenging Church practice (and later its very authority), but that's not quite the same as proto-Protestant.--¿3family6 _contribs 18:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying that the term "Protestant" (as used in English at least) can only be used to describe groups that have in addition theological differences with the Catholic church? Contact Basemetal here 18:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

In short, yes. But more because they aren't really considered that. There's discussion about it, certainly, and that can be mentioned here - I myself will try to improve this article once I am done with my semester - but it isn't something that's really definite. The Lollards definitely would be considered proto-Protestant, and probably the Hussites (I don't know about them 'cause I haven't studied them much). What I'm trying to say that if we take Protestant to mean any group which differed and ultimately split off from the Catholic Church, than pretty much every heretical group would be included. While the Waldensians certainly influenced the Hussites and then the Protestants in later years, they preceded those movements by a few centuries, and aren't really considered proto-Protestant by scholars. I think the big factors considered by scholars are A) Theological and intellectual tradition, B) Influence, and D) Timeframe. There's a direct, noticeable influence of the Lollards and Hussites that grew into the Protestant movement, and those two heresies also had theological and intellectual systems similar to the later Reformation (Wycliffe and the Lollards in particular expressed ideas that later appeared in the Reformation, such as unconditional election, consubstantiation, and a "church within a church"). Along with that, they appeared in a certain chronological timeframe (late-Middle Ages/early-Rennaissance).--¿3family6 _contribs 21:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for the insight. Since you've studied this topic I defer to you. If you can improve the article please do. Cheers, Contact Basemetal here 23:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm not an expert, by any means, but yes, I have studied it. There are some Protestant writers who try to establish the Waldensians as proto-Protestant, but that really isn't accurate.--¿3family6 _contribs 02:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

One last comment as an afterthought. Something to think about. In 1532 at the Synode of Chanforan the Vaudois decided to become a Calvinist Church. If one can in no case see the Vaudois as a proto-Protestant movement, it is somewhat puzzling that they seemed to be able to fit so quickly and easily into the Calvinist Reform movement. Contact Basemetal here 20:40, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

They joined the Calvinists to avoid persecution, and had to majorly overhaul their theology. By that point, the Waldensian movement was quite different from what it started out as. But they still were quite Catholic up until the merger. I don't know as much about this stage of the movement, because my research focuses more on the early stages.--¿3family6 _contribs 22:37, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

So interesting mathematical probability discounts the sect starting in the late 12th century as the persecution lasted for nearly 500 years. I also find it strange that Peter Waldo vanished without a trace and all we have is a signed statement declaring his Catholic vows — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.75.87 (talk) 14:40, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

See WP:No original research and WP:Verifiability. Osama bin Laden managed to evade one of the best funded military forces in the world for about a decade of them focusing on him, and a few before that in an era with satellite tracking, heat sensing, radar, and so on. Waldo lived in an era where the best tracking consisted of "someone who knew the area with a hunting dog." Ian.thomson (talk) 17:28, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what this original comment is even trying to say. Catharism survived for hundreds of years despite persecution, as well. There's a lot of scholarship analyzing how Waldensianism continued to have adherents amidst intense persecution. There are some scholars who question whether later groups that claimed to be Waldensian were actually Waldensians, but it seem unanimously accepted that Peter Waldo existed and, if he didn't found it, at least highly energized a religious movement. He didn't "vanish without a trace," and the year of his death is known to within approx. five years.--¿3family6 _contribs 01:28, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I just enhanced the article with the German aspacts and I agree with Basemetal. The Waldenisans they were definitely deemed proto-Protestant, there is a wide range of (german) sources on that, at least starting in the 17th century.

• Italienische Waldenser und das protestantische Deutschland 1655 bis 1989 Barbro Lovisa Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1994 (Italian Waldensian and protestant Germany 1655 till 1989)
• Gustavus Adolphus Union GAW journal / website http://glauben-verbindet.blogspot.de/2013/01/gemeinsame-projektforderung-der.html http://glauben-verbindet.blogspot.de/search/label/Waldenser
• Der Armutsbegriff der Waldenser: eine sozialphilosophische Annäherung von Paul R. Tarmann
• Geschichte der Waldenser F. Bender
• Johan Legers algemeine Geschichte der Waldenser oder der evangelischen Kirchen in den Thälern von Piemont: in zwey Büchern mit vielen Kupfern. B.1-2 Jean Léger, Siegmund Jacob Baumgartens, Johann Jacob Korn, 1750
• Rückblicke auf die Geschichte der Reformation, oder, Luther in Leben und That: zur Erinnerung an die dreihundertjährige Augsburgische Confessions Heinrich Gottlieb Kreussler beim Verfasser, 1830

Fact is that the high independence of the communities, lay preaching, voluntary poverty and strict adherence to Bible are among the treats that allow to do such an assumptions. Furthermore, Peter Waldo as being credited with providing to Europe the first translation of the Bible in a 'modern tongue' outside of Latin is definitely a highly protestant asset. Its been and is of importance, as differences between Protestants and Catholics refers to Ecclesiology, and the Waldesian strive for their own church was taken to prove an ancient origin of protestantism as true interpretation of the faith. On that base, the German Protestants have been helping the Italien protestant minorities by aid, loans, exchange of priesters and communities and supportin legal and theological issues is a continuous story since the 17th century. The 1948 centenary festivitations of the Savoy civil rights declaration have been used by the EKD (top level) to allow for German Italian reconcialiation after WWI, with waldensian delegates pioneering. So far for that. Serten II (talk) 14:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what those German sources have to do with establishing the Waldensians as proto-Protestant, as by the 17th century they had acceded to the Protestants. I did a g-books search, and there are numerous sources calling them proto-Protestant. However, that still is not the same as calling them the first Protestants, as Basemetal first suggested.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree that that Basemetals wording may lead to misunderstandings. But that applies as well to your "acceding the Protestants". To say the Waldensians as proto-Protestant, is a mere historical view. Leger and others faith and the theology related view is different. They saw the Waldensians as only and true Christians, which kept the faith (held the candle) in dark times, against the catholic antichrist. The German protestant interested in the case used it to claim that real christians ever have been like them and insofar denied the apostolic succession. With the Waldensians going under the Protestant roof, they stayed being Waldensians. I will correct the wording, thnx for the input. Serten II (talk) 18:00, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

The only reason I said "acceding to the Protestants" is because the Waldensians had to reform much of their theology, especially with regard to unconditional election. They stayed Waldensian, but had to transform some of their theology and lifestyle in a short period of time.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:06, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

The Waldensians in Württemberg belong to (pietist) lutheran, in Baden and Hesse they belong to United and uniting churches, that said they might not have been changed to Calvinism (unconditional election) radically. I think you might overstrech an aspect which is due to the interaction with Switzerland. Serten II (talk) 18:20, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I can only speak from what I read during my thesis project. I did not focus that much on the differing groups throughout Germany in early modern era, as that was outside the scope of my project. I concentrated on the roles of women in the movement, up to the merger with the Protestant movement. So I really don't know much about the movement after the merger with Protestantism, other than a very brief overview.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:46, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

See, my family comes direct from the region around Maulbronn and Bretten (partnercity of Wittenberg) so I have some impressions from the current state. With regard to women, I had the overall impression in school that the "Waldensians" were more mediterrenean lookswise - maybe due to the impression given by some ravishing beauties ;) Serten II (talk) 20:04, 13 December 2014 (UTC)