Talk:Wacław Brzeziński

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A fact from Wacław Brzeziński appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 19 January 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Polish baritone Wacław Brzeziński (pictured) was praised in Italy for his performances as Rossini's Figaro and Verdi's Rigoletto?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/January. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Wacław Brzeziński.

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1896 to 1904

@Biografer: and @Gerda Arendt:, From 1896 to 1904, what did he do? I imagine he started college around 1896. He debuted in 1904. What did he do in that period and how did he get to the stage in Italy? --evrik ^(talk) 17:05, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

He was a smith, see Kutsch/Riemens. Expand to your liking, I have to nominate something for Christmas, last day today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:16, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PS: Looks like he never studied at a conservatory, only privately. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:17, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik: Beats me. We need Polish sources. Unfortunately, no books from that time even mention him.--Biografer (talk) 17:19, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt: Doesn't look like like he studied privately studies at Warsaw University of Technology.--Biografer (talk) 17:23, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, misunderstanding, I meant voice studies. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:30, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing wrong with Polish sources, only I can't read them. Piotrus can. The German source has more detail on his roles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:32, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt: Well, we can't put this analogy in an article? Without proper sources, it will be debunked.--Biografer (talk) 17:37, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon, which "analogy"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:41, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt: I was referring to self taught voice studies. I assumed that when you said that he was studied privately, it merely meant your opinion, since there are no sources to support your statement. :)--Biografer (talk) 16:33, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In general, Google Translate should translate Polish sources well. According to [1], from 1896 to 1904 he studied on Poland, then abroad, and also tutored some students. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:07, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes @Piotrus:, just change "on" to "in" and you are good to go. I use Google Translate for all languages, weather its Polish, Armenian, Spanish, even for Russian language I use it, because some words have double meanings. :)--Biografer (talk) 16:33, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 21:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Wacław Brzeziński circa 1920

~~... that Wacław Brzeziński made his stage debut in 1904 in the role of Richmond in Friedrich von Flotow's opera Martha at the Teatro del Corso in Bologna, Italy?~~ Małgorzata Kosińska (December 2007). "Wacław Brzeziński". Culture.pl. Retrieved 2019-11-22.

Created by Biografer (talk) and expanded by Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Biografer (with the assistance of Evrik) at 16:54, 2 December 2019 (UTC).[reply]

- New enough, long enough. Hook is sourced. It could use some more facts, another source or two, and a better written hook. --evrik ^(talk) 16:57, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik: What hook would you suggest? I added one more source and image. Seems like its good to go.--Biografer (talk) 17:34, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alt1 ~~... that Wacław Brzeziński was awarded the Gold Cross of Merit "for merits in the field of artistic work and propaganda of Polish art."~~"Zarządzenie o nadaniu Złotego Krzyża Zasługi". Monitor Polski (in Polish).

Alt1 sounds good, except that "propaganda of Polish art" sounds oppressive. To each his own, but the word "propaganda" usually affiliated with oppressive regimes.--Biografer (talk) 17:40, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alt1a ~~... that Wacław Brzeziński was awarded the Gold Cross of Merit "for merits in the field of artistic work and the promotion of Polish art."~~

Modified. --evrik ^(talk) 15:56, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Watchlisting, but no time today and most of tomorrow. Debut is rarely the best achievement, and the pic was taken much later. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:04, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt: - thoughts? --evrik ^(talk) 15:56, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but not now, expanding an article, and up to listen to a concert tonight, + 2 articles for Christmas need to be written. No rush, I hope. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:00, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt: - If Alt 1a is acceptable, please approve this so we can move on. --evrik ^(talk) 16:39, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, I first need to copy-edit the article, and then I can't review it. It shouldn't be presented as it is, with the lead not a summary, and a sea of blue for the operas. I also would need to take a detailed look at the sourcing. Reviewing isn't just thinking a line might work. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:44, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I now found the time to copy-edit and find a source in German which I can read. Please, for DYK, you will to have to source all facts at the ends of sections. Kutsch/Riemens, the bible for opera singers, supports most, but not the details about running the opera, and the teaching, - it just says that he taught in Warsaw and Łódź. - For a hook, the debut is interesting after all, because this Posish singer made it in Italy before studying voice! The award is pretty boring in comparison, - striking. An alternative might be that this Polish singer was admired in Italy as Rigoletto and Barbiere! I take some make credit, if I may. Someone else will have to review. If the Polish article says he made his debut as Richmond, please fix. Richmond is the place, the role is Plumkett.

ALT2: ... that the Polish baritone Wacław Brzeziński made his stage debut in Italy before studying voice? ::: Please find a better translation than "propaganda" which can't be meant. "propagation"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:48, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is actually an eight year gap in this piece from 1896 to 1904. He may have had some singing training. BTW, When you say, Barbiere, does it mean, Figaro (opera character)? --evrik ^(talk) 17:20, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ALT3: ... that the Polish baritone Wacław Brzeziński was admired in Italy in the roles of Rigoletto and Barbiere? Kutsch, K. J.; Riemens, Leo (2012). Brzeziński, Waclaw (in German) (4th ed.). Walter de Gruyter. pp. 627–628. ISBN 978-3-59-844088-5. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help) --evrik ^(talk) 17:20, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Barbiere was mentioned further up as Rossini's. We will have to mention the composer in the hook (where there is no "further up") as there's also Mozart's, and also baritone.

ALT3a: ~~... that the Polish baritone Wacław Brzeziński (pictured) was admired in Italy as Rossini's Barbiere and Verdi's Rigoletto?~~ --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:57, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ALT3b: ... that the Polish baritone Wacław Brzeziński (pictured) was praised in Italy as Rossini's Barbiere and Verdi's Rigoletto? --evrik ^(talk) 03:51, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Approving hook 3a. --evrik ^(talk) 18:24, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

evrik, as I understand things, you helped Biografer create this nomination page, but weren't otherwise involved in the nomination yourself. I've therefore removed the DYKnom credit, since that is incompatible with your reviewing the nomination. (If I've misunderstood, and you were a nominator, then we need someone else to do the final review and approval.) Also, I wanted to check: did you examine the source to confirm the admiration mentioned in the hook? I wasn't able to, which is why I'm not promoting the article at this time—also, the article says "praised" which is not necessarily the same thing as "admired"—but since you've used the regular tick rather than the AGF tick, it would seem that you did read it. I was hoping to be assured that you have confirmed said admiration. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik: I came by to promote this. Can you resolve the issues raised by BlueMoonset please? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 23:43, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@BlueMoonset and Yoninah: I took the source to a native German speaker and had them translate it (read it to me). I missed the praised/admired difference. I created hook 3b, that now matches the text. Seeing that the source is in German, I changed my tick. --evrik ^(talk) 03:51, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Restoring tick for ALT3b. Yoninah (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]