Talk:WDSI-TV

New logo

The logo did not work 91BOY 13:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Now it works 91BOY 13:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 03:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Collpased per WP:NOTFORUM. Article talk page discusion should be about ways to improve the Wikipedia article, not for general discussion about the subject of the article
What a shame? This TV might aquire a rerun of Tracy Ulman Show and That's means WDSI is bringing back Tracy Ulman Show for the first time since 27 years after Tracy Ulman Show is ended the show. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liftrighttv (talk • contribs) 08:35, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Ownership/Operatorship Dispute

• (Note:I have gone to the trouble of removing all personal attacks (using [redacted]), and indeed all personal comments that aren't attacks (using [removed]), from this talk page. Restoring the personal attacks will result in a block; restoring the personal comments that are not attacks are pretty unlikely to help anything. Further personal attacks will result in a block; further personal comments are pretty unlikely to help anything. My understanding is the content issue has been resolved, so it seems unlikely this thread needs any further comments at all, except further accolades to Sammi Brie (talk · contribs) for digging in and resolving the content dispute. But I may have misunderstood, there may be more content-related issues, so I'll leave the thread open. But be polite. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:25, 30 March 2021 (UTC))

The station is owned and operated by New Age media (which is unrelated to Sinclair). The claim of Sinclair operation is being supported by a misleading headline from this source. Reading the article, you will see that Sinclair "acquired the programming contracts and assets", not the station. The Fox affiliation was then moved to WTVC (which Sinclair does own). As further proof, any mention of WDSI or New Age is absent from Sinclair's most recent 10-K filing.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie, Mrschimpf, Tvtonightokc, Wcquidditch, Mlaffs, Xenon54, LooneyTraceYT, BlueboyLINY, and DizzyMosquitoRadio99: You might want to weigh in on this. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 01:03, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to look at New Age Media's filings; as an LLC they may not exist. Generally, companies are limited to owning/controlling two stations in a media market (Sinclair apparently has an exception in the Salt Lake City market), but historically shell companies have sometimes been used to evade these limits. Of course there must be some sourcing that Sinclair controls New Age Media in a way that Wikipedia considers notable, but the FCC/SEC isn't concerned about, before we could claim any relation in an article. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 01:04, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Sinclair has a history of making "shell companies". Anyone who has edited the Sinclair Broadcast Group page knows that.

Rusf10 has repeatedly claimed that they (Sinclair) in no way operated WDSI-TV, which is owned by New Age Media. Even when faced with two sources that prove this, they disagree. Claiming that Sinclair's latest SEC filing is the gold standard.

So this all started when I warned the user, I provided the above New Age Media sources within the warning, especially for WDSI. [redacted] - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:08 on March 29, 2021 (UTC)

@Johnuniq and Fram: - Pinging two unassociated admins at random as I believe we are going to need a couple unassociated moderators. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:20 on March 29, 2021 (UTC)

I don't think either of the "two sources that prove this" do anything of the sort. The Timesfreepress source says they bought the FOX license for the Chattanooga market (which is not disputed), but is less clear about the ownership of the station; clearly Sinclair does not directly own the station now. The Tvnewscheck is a press release about a transaction regarding stations in Pennsylvania and Florida; Chattanooga does not appear to be mentioned. [removed] User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 01:13, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@力: How's this?

[redacted] - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:01 on March 29, 2021 (UTC)

[removed] User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:03, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

And based on my knowledge of the industry, I assume Sinclair is somehow involved with WDSI. But until you can prove that they currently either exercise editorial control over the station, or profit from the station, there's nothing to include in the article. (A source that says "owns" can't support "controls through a shell company".) This is more difficult because WDSI doesn't appear to even have a website; normally the stations' own statements would be a key source (in addition to FEC/SEC filings; which have been noted to state that Sinclair does not directly own the station). I have been (in between arguing) trying to figure who controls New Age Media of Tennessee, and/or what the relationship between the companies are. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:10, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

That backs up the 2015 sale post. So, they either own it, or they control it through a shell. You can't have it both ways. As Nate discribed below, without a MASSIVE FCC/SEC investigation, it's probably unlikely we will ever know the full extent of what Sinclair's business dealings are.

[removed] - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:20 on March 29, 2021 (UTC)

[removed] User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:26, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

[removed] - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:42 on March 29, 2021 (UTC)

One of the problems with how SBG does business is unless the FCC does a full-scale investigation, we can never know the full intent and control they have over their shellcos. I mean, looking on the surface, NAM certainly looks like a shellco for SBG; WDSI carries This TV, which is a declining network, and what local advertising they might have is likely negligible compared to the market's other stations, and it seems to be starved for resources. The local cable company and Dish also don't bother to carry its two channels at all. On the surface, it's definite, but with the lack of sources we have, it sadly isn't definite how much SBG may meddle in NAM/WDSI. Nate • (chatter) 02:06, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Let me try and clarify some of this mess.

• Sinclair has handled some operation functions on a contract level for New Age for years. (New Age of Tennessee has existed since 2006.) Sinclair Television Group, Inc., a subsidiary of SBGI, had an option agreement that expired in 2016, per the WDSI-TV public file. There is no other contract between New Age and Sinclair in the file, as updated on March 18, 2021.
• In 2015, Sinclair acquired the non-license assets—that is, physical plant and property—for $1.25 million. This is common for stations which Sinclair operates but which are owned by LMA/SSA/etc. partners. At that time, Sinclair acquired New Age's interest in the network affiliation agreement and moved Fox to its own spectrum. (While there have been similar cases in other markets lately with Fox, this is an unrelated matter.) See the below extract from Sinclair's 3Q 15 release.

In September, the Company closed on the acquisition of certain non-license assets of WDSI (FOX) and WFLI (CW) in Chattanooga, TN from New Age Media for $15.5 million. The Company will provide services to WFLI under agreements which it assumed in the acquisition. New Age Media will continue to own and operate WDSI. The FOX programming that previously aired on WDSI was moved to a multicast channel of WTVC, which is owned and operated by the Company, and the My Network programming that previously aired on a multicast channel of WDSI, was moved to a multicast channel of WFLI.

• In 2020, Sinclair and Fox agreed to an extension of the station group-wide affiliation contract with the network. Since the start of 2021, there has been a steady trickle of cases where the Fox affiliation has moved from an LMA partner station to the subchannel of the SBG-owned station in the same market. (The LMA partner station basically becomes a diginet tree.) This would be one of them.
• Per the WTVC public file, there was a "Station Affiliation Agreement, between Fox Broadcasting Company, LLC and WTVC Licensee, LLC" with a term from December 31, 2019, to December 31, 2021. This has since received an extension to December 31, 2023.
• WDSI-TV is not listed as a station to which Sinclair provides services. WFLI-TV is, as a JSA-SSA case (in which the licensee holds the license and programming rights). The WFLI-TV contracts list contains a "Joint Sales and Shared Services Agreement (as amended)" with Sinclair Broadcast Group, Inc.
• WDSI-TV's issues and programs lists as far as the 4th quarter of 2020 include material of programs (mostly the Fox morning show) aired by WTVC's Fox subchannel. The Fox morning show is reaired at noon (and sometimes earlier or later depending on This TV programming) on WDSI's primary This TV subchannel.

There follows a listing of some of the significant issues responded to by ETVC-TV, Chattanooga, Tenn., along with the most significant programming treatment for the period of October 1st, 2020 through December 31st, 2020. The order in which the issues appear does not reflect any priority or significance. The list is by no means exhaustive.

In this case, "ETVC" refers to WTVC-DT2, as used in the annotation by Nielsen Media Research to denote the DT2 of a station with a W call sign.

What appears to have happened is that Sinclair bought the Fox affiliation and non-license assets of WFLI. There is no current JSA/SSA with Sinclair covering WDSI-TV's operations, and it does not appear that Sinclair has ever had a JSA/SSA to run WDSI-TV as it does for WFLI-TV. However, WDSI-TV continues to list WTVC's Benton Drive studios as its main studio and continues to reair programs produced by WTVC, though in a secondary capacity—and to what extent and under what circumstances is not clear. In my estimation, Sinclair should not be listed as the operator in the infobox, but it should be noted that New Age has other business relationships with Sinclair and continues to use some of its resources in the programming of WDSI-TV. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:15, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you user:Sammi Brie for doing all that research! I never would have been able to find all that myself. It basically supports what I've been saying, that Sinclair doesn't own or operate WDSI, but I understand that there are some questions about the relationship between the two companies. However, we cannot base our articles on speculation that the owners of SInclair may have some type of relationship with the owners of New Age Media.--Rusf10 (talk) 02:22, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie: Should that be mentioned in the infobox, in the lede, or in a special section? At present, it is current shown as a "Master Services Agreement". Nexstar uses them for their Mission Broadcasting quite often. I believe it's they just provide master control services for a station that doesn't have the ability or finances to do so themselves. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:30 on March 29, 2021 (UTC)

I think the best way of doing this is saying in the lede that Sinclair provides engineering services, and somewhere mentioning the morning show. A fuller discussion of Sinclair can probably come on the section where Sinclair buys most of the WDSI-WFLI assets and the SSA to run WFLI. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:37, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't ask, but unfortunately you got pulled into this, would you mind being the neutral person for that? I don't think it best for Rusf10 or I to do so. It's just going to devolve. If you don't wish to, I understand and respect your decision. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:46 on March 29, 2021 (UTC)

Having also dug into this, New Age Media and MPS Media appear to be essentially the same company (both operating out of "1185 Highway 315", Wilkes-Barre, PA), and apparently owned by Eugene J. Brown, who shows up in some older regulatory filings as a manager for Adelphia. My general impression from browsing over a number of news articles is that Brown's companies did have a legitimate independent existence (they bought WFLI in 2008, for instance). They may well have decided that the best way to realize a return on their assets is to transform into something like Deerfield Media, but they seem to have retained slightly more vestigial function rather than becoming 100% Sinclair LMAs. Choess (talk) 03:21, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Rusf10 and Neutralhomer: Please review the changes I've made. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:31, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie: Good timing! I just did, I sent you a "Thank" on the edit! :) Works for me. :) Has the wording I'm looking for, it has a connection to Sinclair...which with the sources available is about as close as we are going to get. I, very much, appreciate your assistance on this! :) I owe you one....seriously!

The only thing left to discuss (力, you around?) is the List of stations owned or operated by Sinclair Broadcast Group‎ page. I'm assuming we can do that here. Our moderator/mediator seems to have left us. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:36 on March 29, 2021 (UTC)

@Neutralhomer: Done. Also worth noting that several Times Free Press articles post-2015 call Fox Chattanooga "WDSI" when it is not. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:57, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie:I approve of the edit, thank you! The Times Free Press is the source of this problem. It's their poorly written article that created the confusion in the first place.--Rusf10 (talk) 05:01, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie: There are pre-2015 "WDSI" articles from The Times Free Press" out of Chattanooga. But, I've saw your edits to the List of Sinclair stations, it works for me. I think we can all this resolved. You want to mark it? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:23 on March 29, 2021 (UTC)

Imprecision in broadcasting articles in newspapers is old hat, but I also get how it happened. A "non-license asset" is just jargon to a lot of people. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:17, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Almost everything looks fine, though I'm not 100% sure that New Age Media of Tennessee is the same company as the New Age Media that owns stations in Gainesville Florida. If you are sure, I think I'm done here. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 19:21, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie: Believe me, I know that one for sure. :) Hundreds of article for a radio station GA/FA made my brain go brrr. Yeah. Ugh!

@力: Here is an MPS Media of Gainesville licensed station and here is an MPS Media of Tennessee licensed station. Notice the address at the top (this information is direct from FCC filings, it's just easier to search and read), it's the exact same. So, technically, they just changed the company name, while keeping the address.

If you ever want to know ANYTHING about radio and television stations, search it on fccdata.org. That site and REC in general (which runs fccdata.org) is a wealth of radio/TV knowledge. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 23:09 on March 29, 2021 (UTC)