Talk:W. Patrick Lang

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Ismoot (talk · contribs) / Lang, W. Patrick Lang, W. Patrick

WP is not a CV

Please, let's not make this into a CV. The books and articles are appropriate, but we don't need every media appearance, lecture, etc. -Will Beback 21:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there is not a single relaible source for this material. The subject's own blog does not count. This article needs to be sourced and cleaned up or it may be nominated for deletion. -Will Beback 22:00, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A single reliable source for what "material?" The details of Lang's life? 69.140.68.140 22:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This should not be a CV nor should it be a memoir. It is also not a place for random defamatory comments. Pat Lang is notable because he is a public figure and because he has made vital contributions to the public sphere in terms of the war on terrorism (most notably, perhaps, his appearance in front of the Senate to discuss the implications of the exposure of CIA operative Valerie Wilson). Editing one's own entry is bad Wikipedia form, but I believe it is sometimes acceptable to correct blatant inaccuracies. Looking over the edit history, it appears he has edited his own entry far more than should be typical.--csloat 01:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia: Verifiability for the need to cite sources. See Wikipedia:reliable sources for what is an allowable source. See Wikipedia:no original research for why personal knowledge is not allowed. If User:69.140.68.140 is the subject then please see Wikipedia:autobiography. Thanks, -Will Beback 01:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sloat misses the point that I will not allow myself to be defamed in this mockery of what an encyclopedoa shuild be. Smoot 02:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OTRS #2006021510000242: W. Patrick Lang resigned from VIPS. David.Monniaux 01:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect question.

How do you do a redirect from "pat lang" to this article? best wishes Will314159 13:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Done: Pat Lang. -- Jeandré, 2006-09-17t15:33z. See the instructions at WP:R. -- Jeandré, 2006-09-18t21:22z

thanx -- Will314159 00:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Citation request.

OTRS 2006091710005641

I received a message on my talk page asking for an explanation at the Lang blog for the citation request. My post there was rejected. Here it is for the person asking me to comment:

Aloha, Jeandré here from Wikipedia. I've made 1 edit to the Colonel's article, on 2006-09-17t15:23:47z when I fixed a typo, changing "servered" to "served". You can also find this diff (change) by clicking on the article's "history" log link at the top, and then clicking on the "(last)" link to the left of my name.

The edit before mine on 2006-09-10t23:55:19z added the citation request when it also did a general reorganization of the article as per our manual of style. So, the 2006-09-10t16:28:19z version didn't have the request, but the 2006-09-10t23:55:19z edit put it there.

I don't think it was meant to be an insult. The verifiability policy is one of the most important policies at Wikipedia, and it states that "Articles should cite [sources readers can check] whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed.".

We try with our biographies of living persons policy to remove any detrimental edits. One of the ways we do this is by requiring reliable sources for any challenged information - we have about 33000 "citation required" requests thruout the site.

The request has since been removed by 69.241.228.39 without proving a specific source. -- Jeandré, 2006-09-18t21:22z

Rereading it, I should have added "unsourced" before "detrimental" in the message's last paragraph. -- Jeandré, 2006-09-18t21:35z

Reply was eventually posted despite a personal email earlier saying nothing I write will be allowed on the blog. -- Jeandré, 2006-09-19t11:44z

Invitation to edit the Pat Lang site? Why?:

http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/ref/index.php?title=W._Patrick_Lang

I am really wondering what the above site is about. But it seems to be an invitation to edit this entry. Just follow the first link and then it tells you all you need to know.

And this is connected via the headline above it to the Danish Cartoon story. This seems to suggest a connection which escapes me.

Can anyone tell me what this is about? InfoWar? I am puzzled. Can I assume from this some people do not like Pat Lang? " LeaNder 14:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't have a clue. I have made one edit re Iraq in the blog/Punditry site based on the Christian Science Monitor article. It needs to be pruned. I hadn't had a chance to do it. It's about the exposed long supply lines from Kuwait. Exposed in case war with Iran breaks out. He regularly republishes "The Advisor" which is a U.S. Military publication from Iraq. Take Care. Will314159 17:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks like wiki software gone bad. It's not just the lang page; if you click on "Iraq" or any other link, you get the same page, with "Iraq" where "Lang" was. It's an explanation of how to use wikipedia, not an invitation to edit a particular page. Looks like they were copying relev ant wikipedia articles but their software is broken and only puts up the explanation of wikipedia software.-csloat 18:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Will, I do not know much about him, but he sounds like a sane voice with much experience. I only occasionally read his blog. But concerning your statement above: As a complete nitwit on military affairs I occasionally ask myself, if Rumsfeld's slim army is not really the sign of the most advanced and powerful army on earth but much more dictated by the necessity to have troops left for the next step. [faster please: Syria, Iran ...]

Commodore: Yes, on the surface it's simply an explanation of the wiki software, but why choose Lang in this context? And much more important why add the Wikipedia discussion link to the Mohammad cartoons? I am not aware of a direct connection between Lang and the controversy or the Wikipedia discussion. But that is the impression that is created in the mind of the reader of this site. I guess I should ask him directly and/or the site's owner, if there is a contact address at all.

Site Owner: John Simmons "Dialogue Channel”:

http://www.samspade.org/t/whois?a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baghdadmuseum.org%2F&server=magic

http://www.dialoguechannel.com/peace/nar0.htm

I should have checked this before. This feels like an approach Lang would agree with. So my interpretation above may well be wrong.

LeaNder 10:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let me cite -csloat's above comment first, since this is close to what I am interested in now:

"Looks like wiki software gone bad. It's not just the lang page; if you click on "Iraq" or any other link, you get the same page, with "Iraq" where "Lang" was. It's an explanation of how to use wikipedia, not an invitation to edit a particular page. Looks like they were copying relev ant wikipedia articles but their software is broken and only puts up the explanation of wikipedia software.-csloat 18:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)"

The site has a peculiar mixture no doubt. Patrick Lang's comment: Subject line: And?

"I am not interested in attacks from the neocons and the information operations of the Bushies. pl"

But can somebody help me to find out why I can get from this link:

http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/ref/index.php?title=W._Patrick_Lang

to the home site with the exhibition poster, if I click on the home icon top left:

http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/

Can listen to an interview with John Simmons when I click on the link beneath it: "Introduction by John Simmons: podcast" And thus learn what Baghadmuseum is supposedly all about.

Can look at much more on offer, if I follow another link below the poster: "Iraq Museum International Home"

But no other link seems to take me back to the Patrick Lang page that initially caught my attention.

AGAIN: Why pick out Patrick Lang in this context, and why connect him with the Danish Cartoon Story at least associatively? ::::: ::::: ::::: LeaNder 14:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Cartoons thing appears at the top of every page on that site. Click on "Mesopotamia" and it's still there. It's an ad for their pdf about the cartoon. Maybe a mistake; maybe they are just spamming links to the cartoon. I don't think Lang is singled out here. This page has the same ad on it.--csloat 20:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, another puzzle. Maybe I should give it up. So we are invited to edit Georgie too, how many more are offered? Why can't I go from Patrick Lang to G. W. Bush? How did you manage to get to this site with Bush? Let's take a historical look. In 2005 they used the layout for the whole site.

e.g. in May 2005: http://web.archive.org/web/20050307122907/http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/

Or did you generate George Walker for me?

http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/ref/index.php?title=Commodore_Sloat_csloat

Now this seems to work. But will I be able to google up Commodore_Sloat_csloat too? I doubt.

http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=%22Commodore+Sloat+csloat%22+Wikipedia&btnG=Google-Suche&meta=

But "'patrick Lang' + Wikipedia" brings up the first link that started me thinking. But thanks anyway Commodore.

HmmmLeaNder 19:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

People as target's of ideological distortions

http://www.juancole.com/2006/10/wikipedia-karsh-and-cole-encyclopedia.html

Somehow I read similar complaints before, and I would join any group who protects people's basic personality rights in this context. Does something like this exist on Wikipedia?

LeaNder 18:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When it comes to Israel related articles there are 10-12 right wing editors that will gang up on an article and make it conform to their POV. Lang as a military analyst has escaped that. Although as the first full professor of Arabic at West Point, he could very well be a target one day. I hope not, because he is feisty and does not suffer fools gladly. It took Cole a YEAR to respond to Karsh's slimy attack. Lang would not take a nanosecond to come out with guns blazing if attacked. Special Forces snake-eater vs. mild mannered professor, I guess. Take Care. -- Will314159 18:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LeaNder: No, he has not completely escaped the perception management propagandists, although he does not seem to bother. It has happened to him too. No reply by the way from John Simmons who put up the invitation to edit Lang's entry, I forwarded above. What strange game is this?

I didn't answer Les's question. I don't know of any group that protects the innocents. Other than editors of good faith standing up to the bullies. Join us over at Juan Cole and revert the right wingers when they delete Juan Cole's comments where he defends himself. Best Wishes. -- Will314159 19:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LeaNder: OK I'll have a look. Although I do not really want to make a difference between a Special Forces veteran and a mild mannered professor if it comes to bias, propaganda and what looks like perception management. In these difficult time, every sane voice counts. Could editing statistics show "unusual" editorial activities on special topics, persons? Now this would be an interesting field of study. Recording the info-war. These fights should show up statistically, if you develop special tools. I just had a problem to get to Patrick Lang at all. Had to search it via Google "Patrick Lang" and Wikipedia. Wikipedia's own search brought up no entry. Now it works again.

Sorry for drifting off topic.

Best wishes back Will and to all unbiased Wiki's out there! LeaNder 20:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A new Wikipedia with Constables, Citizenpedia, For your interest, a Wikipedia with Sheriffs [1]

Best Wishes -- Will314159 11:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See Citizendium Cheers -- Will314159 15:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I prefer the good old Wiki. But I put the Juan Cole entry on my watch list. And will be around from time to time. Take care. LeaNder 13:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lea. looking at your talk page, it says you are from Kologne. On Pat lang's blog, Sic Semper Tyrannis, we had a little discussion on this phrase: ""Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." FYI A Policy and Strategy of RealismThe phrase put Systrans and Google Translator in a loop. Cheers. -- Will314159 14:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh? I hope I added the author of the phrase? It is a quote by Max Liebermann confronted with the rise of the Nazis. The Berlin grandseigneur of painting. He is one of my favorite painters, not much known in the States. In Cologne, Köln, we say Kölle by the way.LeaNder 20:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

footnote

I still don't have the hang of footnotes. If somebody could clean it up, it would be greatly appreciated.
<ref>{{cite title = The Commanders| author = Bob Woodward| ISBN = ISBN 0-67141367-8| year = 1991| }}</ref> Godspeed John Glenn! Will 13:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Source for Lang having presidential rank of distinguished executive

@Rillian

"DORGAN: First of all, thank you very much. I've already identified you, and so will not do that prior to your presentation. But because you have identified Colonel Lang as beginning, let me describe with just a bit more detail what I have about Colonel Lang because he has a very distinguished record in serving this country. Retired senior officer of the U.S. military intelligence and U.S. Army Special Service Forces. He served in the Department of Defense both as a serving officer and a member of the Defense Senior Executive Service; highly decorated veteran of several of America's overseas conflicts, including the war in Vietnam; trained and educated as a Middle East specialist by the U.S. Army and served in that region for many years; the first professor of the Arabic language at the United States Military Academy at West Point.

DORGAN: And in the Defense Intelligence Agency, he was the defense intelligence officer for the Middle East, South Asia on terrorism and later the first director of the Defense HUMINT Service. For his service in the DIA he was awarded the presidential rank of Distinguished Executive. [emphasis supplied] He's an analyst/consultant for many television-radio broadcasts, among them "Jim Lehrer NewsHour." I wanted to say that all publicly because, Mr. Lang, you have a very distinguished record of serving the United States of America and for that we are all very deeply appreciative. Mr. Lang, you may proceed.

LANG: Thank you, Senator. "

Source Sen. Dorgan Hearing 65.184.213.36 21:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good find. Does anyone know what year Lang received the award? There is a list on the OPM website dating back to 1998 and it would be nice to link directly to the OPM page as direct source. Thanks Rillian 17:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Col. Lang emailed me his certificate but it had no date on it. The OPM. (Office of Personnel Management) site only lists the recipients back to 1998. The certificate was signed by Prez Bush No. 41. Actually the top 1% don't automatically get the award. They are merely elgible to be nominated for it. Few of any of those ever get the award. The article needs to clear that up. I called OPM and got disconnected twice. I don't feel like emailing him anymore. I have beat the issue to death, from my POV anyway. For the winners. Rank winners thru 1998 That would be a good external ref for the new article Rillian started 65.184.213.36 22:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Citations Needed for Green Beret Service and Military Intelligence

[SENATOR]"DORGAN: First of all, thank you very much. I've already identified you, and so will not do that prior to your presentation. But because you have identified Colonel Lang as beginning, let me describe with just a bit more detail what I have about Colonel Lang because he has a very distinguished record in serving this country. Retired senior officer of the U.S. military intelligence and U.S. Army Special Service Forces. He served in the Department of Defense both as a serving officer and a member of the Defense Senior Executive Service; highly decorated veteran of several of America's overseas conflicts, including the war in Vietnam; trained and educated as a Middle East specialist by the U.S. Army and served in that region for many years; the first professor of the Arabic language at the United States Military Academy at West Point. DORGAN: And in the Defense Intelligence Agency, he was the defense intelligence officer for the Middle East, South Asia on terrorism and later the first director of the Defense HUMINT Service. For his service in the DIA he was awarded the presidential rank of Distinguished Executive. He's an analyst/consultant for many television-radio broadcasts, among them "Jim Lehrer NewsHour." I wanted to say that all publicly because, Mr. Lang, you have a very distinguished record of serving the United States of America and for that we are all very deeply appreciative. Mr. Lang, you may proceed. LANG: Thank you, Senator. "

http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/hearings/hearing23/transcript.pdf
All those things are covered by a us official gov't

document introduced by a US senator and made part of the record at an official hearing! And accesible online for authentication. Do we really need to put in a citation? I'd be glad to if the consensus call for it. But are we not just revisiting the President Award thing we just went through. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 17:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC) moved it to end. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 17:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup tag

{{Cleanup|date=March 2007}} Apparent new user User:Mqmpk or at least new user to this page put a clean up tag w/o prior discussion. Let's have a discussion on what needs to be "cleaned up" and clean it up.If that's the case, let's have a discussion, the article is not that long. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 14:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mqmpk is part of the Biography oversight committee or such, or so it appears from his contribution edits. I"ll restore the tag for now. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 14:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Official Defense Intelligence Agency Biography

A copy can be downloaded here in pdf format.Godspeed John Glenn! Will 22:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

More bio detail "Senior U.S. military officers in the Persian Gulf region said they had advised Slocombe that the dissolution of the army -- recognized as an institution more loyal to Iraq than to Hussein -- would harm U.S. strategy. Demobilization was "a very basic mistake," said W. Patrick Lang, a retired chief analyst for Middle Eastern affairs for the Defense Intelligence Agency "[2]Godspeed John Glenn! Will 22:25, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category: Military Analyst of the DIA

Come on now- he was more than a clerical military analyst. he was a director of HUMINT. Anyway putting him in a narrow category of three with the second person being a convicted Cuban spy and the third a controversial ?data miner seems to be calumny by association. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 20:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Citation for Harry Frank Guggenheim Foundation

I wish I knew more German. Guggenheim means "something home." No matter I will look it up. the bestt cite would be their web site. I called them and verified the fact. They said it would be in the annual report but the secretary said they were a couple of years behind in their uploading of their annual reports. She said she could fax it me verification. I told her that wouldn't help. So I just linked tot he Col. Lang's CV on his website. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 16:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

interesting tool

tool showing recent vandalism.wikirageGodspeed John Glenn! Will 16:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup needed

Judging from previous entries on this talk page, the subject has edited this page. The whole article reads like promotional/vanity. Every article/blog entry/viewpoint by the subject does not merit inclusion. --Omarcheeseboro (talk) 01:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Yes, Yes, the subject has edited the page. But look at history Omarcheeseboro (talk) to see why out of frustration he edited it. The article has been repeatedly vandalized by the same user. the same user has always been promised to, o.k., you do this one more time, & we will ban you. that is no reason to stick up all those warnings on the article. it detracts from the integrity of the article. it is not an autobiographical article. the subject did not write it. the history does not reflect it. i have to assume good faith per wikipedia guidelines and assume no ulterior motives and that you overlooked the history and remove some of these warnings. this biography article is no different from any others. it is a biography on a notable person reflecting a significant and notable point of view.Godspeed John Glenn! Will 08:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, yes, yes. YES! if a PR department is given free room to present it's director as kindly as possible, as I witnessed in the case of Yaron Brook, I think "the subject" should be given the same chance. LeaNder (talk) 16:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks LeaNder (talk). Those tags belong on the discussion page, not on the article page. It appears that Rillian has stopped for now the toggling of the tags w/o discussion.Godspeed John Glenn! Will 19:46, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Uploaded DD 212 to Wikipedia Commons

[3] Medals: DSSM (! OLC), LOM, Bronze Star (1 OLC), MSM (2 OLC), JSCM, ARCOM (w V) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Service medals: Senior Parachutist Badge, Expert Infantry Badge, Special Forces Tab Godspeed John Glenn! Will 00:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

it is actually DD214. have reuploaded had some problems first go around. [4]Godspeed John Glenn! Will 15:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now the following awards & medals preferably w/ graphics need to be incorporated in the bio article: DSSM (! OLC), LOM, Bronze Star (1 OLC), MSM (2 OLC), JSCM, ARCOM (w/ V) Service medals: Senior Parachutist Badge, Expert Infantry Badge, Special Forces Tab. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 16:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The JSCM goes between the MSM and the ARCOM. the medals still need a lot of formatting. hasta luego Godspeed John Glenn! Will 19:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Personal blogs are not considered reliable sources (RS) by Wikipedia. They can be added as external links, but not as sources for citations. Only blogs managed by other parties, i.e., news media, are acceptable as sources.Parkwells (talk) 01:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Distinguished Exec award

Date of death

The citation for his lifespan, Reference [1], is a DIA biography written while he was still alive, and of course does not mention his date of death. So where did that date come from?

I note that his passing, and his life, is discussed today in the blog he founded, by some who once knew him: https://turcopolier.com/harper-col-w-patrick-lang-r-i-p/ KHarbaugh (talk) 19:12, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have absolutely no problem with taking the information at the blog Lang founded as being definitive on his passing.

But I do want to note, for comparison, the enormous resistance politically correct editors at Wikipedia put up to noting the passing of Richard Lynn.

See under his Talk Page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Lynn

the topics "Lynn has died" and "Death", with comments such as

"Nothing outside white nationalist blogs and media. When these guys finally die, nobody cares except their remaining fellow travelers." KHarbaugh (talk) 16:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it, Pat (who I was at one point a close correspondent of, but we had a falling out years ago) didn't want a formal obit published. I would think the about page at his blog would be acceptable for the date. RIP. [5] Dan Murphy (talk) 13:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]