Talk:Vranje

19th century

There is a ridiculous unsupported claim that in the 19th century the population of Vranje was Bulgarian. This information is supported by insignificant report of an badly informed Austrian diplomat who apparently took that Vranje dialect was not Serbian but a Bulgarian dialect. I introduced only a comment that this must be taken with reserve. Please do not change it.

Hello, do you have a source backing this up? If you can provide a source it can be added in (without the ?!)HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Jovan Hadži-Vasiljević in his seminal work « South old Serbia » (« Južna Stara Srbija, istorijska, etnografska i politička istraživanja » I–II, Beograd, 1909 and 1913) describing 19th century south Serbia does not mention a significant Bulgarian population in Vranje. Dusan Djordjevic in a recent book « Old families of Vranje » (“Stare vranjske porodice”, the book is presently only online: http://www.vranjenet.rs/prva-e-knjiga-portalu-vranjenet/) does not mention a single Bulgarian family in Vranje in 19th century.

Okay, sounds good. Thanks you! Don't forget to cite the source when you add your comment. In the top bar of the editing window, you should see a button that says cite to help you I realize you cannot cite the source since the proof is that it isn't mention, whoops! We'll just leave this here as proof. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 20:55, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I suggest that you consult some standard textbook of the local history and solve the problem, because there is simply no trace of the Bulgarian presence in the south of Serbia in the last 10 centuries. So the affirmation that is to find in Wiki article is an absolute surprise.

Quite interestingly, you are writing: “I realize you cannot cite the source since the proof is that it isn't mention, whoops!”And you decide not to accept my argument.

This is a logical fallacy (in fact sylogistic fallacy). Your rejection of the “absence” of the proofs would be correct if I wanted to prove that there did not exist “some” Bulgarians in the region. However, the proof that I advanced were to justify beliefs that “the bulk of the population was NOT Bulgarians” but the Serbs – which the sources confirm.

In addition. The real census in those times were never organized. However, some property or financial transactions were accompanied by the lists of the population concerned. The gift (lands and churches from Vranje) offered to the orthodox monastery of Hilandary on the Saint Mountain Athos, by Stephan Dusan (Stefan Uroš IV Dušan), king of Serbia in 15 century, was accompanied by the lists of the inhabitants of the region who were obviously 90% Serbs and the rest Wallach – but never Bulgarians. Dusan could not have neglected that information because his mother and wife were of the Bulgarian origin! Turks had 3 such lists from 16 and later centuries; in the 19 century there also exist 4 lists of the inhabitants of Vranje (1858, 1869, 1883 and 1890) where Bulgarians are never mentioned. It may be not easy to distinguish Serbs from the Bulgarians only by the name even up to 1878, but after this date almost all names are clearly Serbian names (I. Jovanovic: Tefters and lists, population of Vranje in the 19th century; in Serbian: Ivan Jovanovic, Tefteri I spiskovi, stanovnistvo Vranja u devetnaestom veku, Istorijski arhiv “31. Januar3, 2009, Vranje).

What is more serious mistake is the following: The text in the Wiki article is supported by the work “Bulgarians in southwest Moravia by J. von Hahn” Illuminated by A. Teodoroff-Balan, Sofia, September 1917. This work is evidently a firsthand Austrian – Bulgarian propaganda from the times of the WW1 published to justify the occupation of the South Serbia by the Bulgarian forces. We accept neither Nazi sources from the WW2 nor Austrian-Hungarian-Bulgarian sources from the WW1. We might, but after careful examination. You should also avoid using such sources in Wikipedia.

Let me add some other references showing that in Vranje, in 19 century, Bulgarian population was insignificant. However there were some villages that were all Wallach but Serbian speaking inhabitants. And obviously number of Albanian villages was increasing during Ottoman rule.

Indeed, there has never been and there are no remains of any Bulgarian church in Vranje.

It is interesting that J. Trifunoski published a series of his researches of the origins of the local populations of Vranje tracing the origins of those peoples back 1 or sometimes 2 centuries. He found just a few Bulgarian settlements in the region and some Wallach and a significant number of Albanian, but recent immigrant populations from the time of Turkish occupation.

Jovan F. Trufunoski, «Gornja Pčinja, Naselja i poreklo stanovnistva”, book LXXVII, 38, Srpska Akademia Nauka i Umetnosti, Beograd 1964. (Engl : “Upper Pčinja, settlements and the origins of populations”, book LXXVII, 38, edited by the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Beograd 1964)

During the Ottoman occupation, in the 19 century, it was hard to find Serbian priests for the Serbian people of Vranje that made up 90% of the populaion, and on demand of the people, Greek and one occasion Bulgarian priest was found. Indeed, the situation was similar with the school teachers, and on one occasion a Bulgarian teacher was engaged (Nikola Dimitrov Dzumajlija), but he tried to teach in Bulgarian and was quickly, on demand of the inhabitants of Vranje, replaced by the Serbian teacher. (Momcilo Sentic, “Cuparci”, Beograd, 1980, page 13-19).

So please make appropriate corrections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB04:61A:F200:A123:C539:A479:AAA2 (talk) 18:57, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

@2A01:CB04:61A:F200:A123:C539:A479:AAA2: You are free to make the corrections as you seem to have knowledge on this topic and have sources. Please keep in mind I did not create this article, the sources are not a reflection of me. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 19:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks verymuch indeed. I will consult some more sources and formulate a reliable correction. For you, somo more interesting references may be of interest.

In a detailed presentation of 3 censuses that had the purpose of tax collections in the Ottoman’s occupied Vranje and surroundings between 1570 to 1800, A. Trajkovic presented some very precise data, collected by the Turks themselves. The population being over 90% Serb in 16th century, was through the centuries partially Islamized, but the islamization never reaching more than 30%. The main contribution to the Islamized population was immigration of the Albanians. For example the completely Serb village of Veliki Trnovac (close to Bujanovac, south of Vranje), while being 100% Serb in the earlier times, in the 19 century became almost 50% Serb and the rest Albanian. (The village is now 100% Albanian.) (Aleksandar Trajkovic : INOGOSTE - Zupa u juznoj srbiji, Dom Kulture Radoje Domanovic, Surdulica, 2ooo. (Inogoste – region in South Serbia, published by Cultural Centre Radoje Domanovic, Surdulica). However, the Turkish census never mentions Bulgarians.

In the same vein, Turks, considered the Serbs in certain way as “their constitutive nation”. Number of Serbs were in high position in the army and even one was the Grand Vesir (Mehmed-pasa Sokollu; Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic)(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokollu_Mehmed_Pasha) and there was even published, for practical purposes a dictionary – an expressions handbook (published before 1512) in Arabian, Persian, Greek and Serb, but not Bulgarian! (Eine Sprachlehre von der Hohen Pforte : ein arabisch-persisch-griechisch-serbisches Gesprächslehrbuch vom Hofe des Sultans aus dem 15. Jahrhundert als Quelle für die Geschichte der serbischen Sprache, herausgegeben von Werner Lehfeldt., Köln : Böhlau, 1989.)

Alright, thank you. It is always interesting to learn new topics. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 18:31, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Ufff, thanks for your help, but was not easy. I registered to Wiki (as you can see) and introduced the above agreed changes. Thanks again.Sorbonneparis (talk) 13:52, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Excuse me, I see now that all my edits disappeared without explanation. Could you please explain? Thanks.Sorbonneparis (talk) 13:21, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Added a POV section. The claim about Johann Georg von Hahn having a pro-Bulgarian bias is dubious. The whole edit from 12 February 2018 is very problematic. Apart from various grammatical errors and general non-encyclopedic language, there are many anachronisms in its claims. The person in question cannot have a "tendency to satisfy Bulgarian allay (ally) ambitions" since Bulgaria did not exist as a country during the time of his observations. Furthermore, the claim that "the two world wars witness those tendencies" not only introduces an unnecessary jump in history but also does not take into account that Austria did not exist during World War II. This section represents a staunchly Serbian POV that the population of so-called "Stara Srbija" (Old Serbija) was forever Serbian, which has its origins in the post-1878 period in the works of Jovan Cvijić and Aleksandar Belić. I suggest providing neutral sources, as well as Serbian sources from before 1878. IcoK97 (talk) 17:27, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

The claim about Johann Georg von Hahn having a pro-Bulgarian bias is very dubious, indeed. There is no support whatsoever in any document for this claim. You need to keep in mind that during his time Bulgaria did not even exist so it is hard to have a bias in favour of a non-existing entity.

The reference to the Ottoman surveys and tax registers is a nonsense as no nationality is recorded in them - only religion. Since both Serbs and Bulgarians are Christians it is impossible to tell whether the Christian population is Bulgarian, Serb or, more likely, a mixture of both.

The only historical document that is neither of Serbian nor of Bulgarian origin and specifically mentions the ethnicity of the population is the report of Johann Georg von Hahn. All the other sources are either of Serbian or Bulgarian origin and thus likely to have some bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.247.49.217 (talk) 20:38, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I think enough time has passed since the edit from 12 February 2018 and since my adding of the POV Section in January 2020, and yet no definitive action has been taken. In the following days I will edit over the Serbian POV and provide references to contemporary non-Serbian and non-Bulgarian descriptions about the city's 19th century population and its ethnic affiliation (apart from the one by Johann von Hahn, which is already included). IcoK97 (talk) 18:37, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Your response has many shortcomings and mistakes. Cannot list them all. The motives of the mentioned Austrian author are not that important but those that I cited are just well established. He promoted the politics of the Austria-Hungary in the Balkans. While Bulgaria as a state did not exist at that time, it was a region of importance and known history. There is nothing that supports his report about the population of that region. I gave a lot of references (mainly Turkish censuses, that of course ALWAYS mention nationalities!) and you ignored them all. Cannot quarrel with you now, your comment is too long and inexact(and put 2 times!). Even your English style is faulty. Please just reintroduce my corrections. Thanks. Sorbonneparis (talk) 15:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I am sorry, just a word: I see now above that “IcoK97” referred to the references that I gave as “Serbian” while those are Turkish references REPORTED later in Serbian publications. These censuses span a couple of centuries! All administration was in Turkish hands. There were no traces of the Bulgarian population in these regions during the Ottoman occupation or even before. The documents of transfer of land during the Serbian kingdom in 14 century also mention the inhabitants by nationality, this was habitual in these times. After 1878. there were almost no Turks left. Turks emigrated in 1878. and their land was later not confiscated but sold in their absence because they left the judicial representatives who were Serbs! Sorbonneparis (talk) 16:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

And, sorry, I saw now that a couple of years ago I wrote a solid, long explanation of crystal-clear facts that I insisted on correcting. And then, SOMEBODY (IcoK97), just in a few words, with slightly insulting justifications, rejected all my analysis to reintroduce some obvious political propaganda about “the Bulgarian population in Vranje and surroundings in 19th century”. This is, sorry, just unacceptable. Sorbonneparis (talk) 16:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)