Talk:Vladyslav Supryaha

On 30 January 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Vladyslav Supryaga. The result of the discussion was not moved.

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Requested move 30 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 09:17, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vladyslav Supryaha → Vladyslav Supryaga – "Supryaga" seems to be the most common spelling of the name, according to news articles (1.4k results). Supryaha (235), Supriaha (523) and Suprjaha (48) have less. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 20:25, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That’s false. Please read WP:GOOG. Google’s “about X results” on the first page is wildly inaccurate. Page to the last results page, and you get Supryaga 233, Supriaha 142, Supryaha 54, Suprjaha 16. On the other hand, Advanced Book Search gives Supriaha 3, Supryaga 1. —Michael Z. 21:54, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 20:29, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Subject is a native-born Ukrainian playing in Italy on loan from a top Ukrainian club. The Ukrainian alphabet has no letter "g" and the Russian alphabet has no letter "h". There is no reason for the surname of a Ukrainian subject to be transliterated into English using transliteration applicable to Russian subjects. Furthermore, Supryaha's entry appears in 12 other Wikipedias, seven of which use the Latin alphabet and none of those use "g" — all seven use "h". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:36, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Roman Spinner: What other Wikipedias do doesn't concern us. Do you have any reason why we should specifically use Supryaha and not, say, Supriaha or Suprjaha? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 23:36, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: Some aspects of Ukrainian transliteration used by the other seven Latin-alphabet Wikipedias — Dutch, French, German, Italian, Norwegian, Polish and Spanish — differ from those in use on English Wikipedia (Wikipedia:Romanization of Ukrainian), while other basic transliteration aspects remain the same — Ukrainian names should not be transliterated in their Russian form (KyivNotKiev) or the avoidance of using Russian "G" in place of Ukrainian "H". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:36, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Roman Spinner: So, would you keep Supryaha or move to Supriaha? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:01, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian has a 'g' 'ґ' and an 'h' 'г' his name uses the latter in Ukrainian cyrillic—blindlynx 16:13, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: Although both transliterations into English — Supryaha and Supriaha — appear to be acceptable, with Supriaha the technically better rendered transliteration, as pointed out by Ymblanter at 08:17, 31 January 2022 (UTC), the transliteration form apparently used by subject himself and confirmed by his listings in UEFA and Soccerway databases is Supryaha, as subsequently [12:26, 31 January 2022 (UTC)] indicated by GiantSnowman. Thus, I would keep Supryaha.[reply]
As for the difference between "g" (Ukrainian "ґ") and "h" (Ukrainian "г"), the "g" sound is not part of Ukrainian speech and is only used to represent the sound of non-Ukrainian terms. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:09, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What!? they are both decidedly part of Ukrainian speech!!!—blindlynx 03:40, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

An analogous example can be presented from another Slavic language, but one that uses the Latin alphabet — Polish. Similar to the status of "Ґ" ("G") in the Ukrainian alphabet, the letters "Q", "V" and "X" are likewise not used for Polish words, but exist as placeholders in the Polish alphabet for use in specialized or foreign names / terms. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:11, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As much as this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, Ukrainian is my mother tongue 'Ґ' exists natively and not just in loanwords. While some of those can be said with an 'h' or a 'g' sound—like 'ґудзики'—others like 'ґуля' or 'ґанок' cannot—blindlynx 20:14, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since this nomination rests entirely upon the difference between the form with the "g" and the form with the "h", that aspect is indeed relevant. The example from Polish was simply added to illustrate a wider view of such orthographic differences. Ukrainian, Russian and Polish are also my native tongues and, while some Russian-speaking Ukrainians and some Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians in Lviv in the 1950s tended to add Ukrainian words while speaking Russian and Russian words while speaking Ukrainian, Ukrainian-language newspapers and books of the time did not use the "Ґ" ("G") in their texts, but only used "Г" ("H"). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:23, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I do not speak Russian so can't comment with regards to it. The point being that both the <ɦ> and <g> sounds as well as the 'Г' and 'Ґ' letters that correspond to them exist in Ukrainian and should be transliterated accurately—'Г' to 'H' and 'Ґ' to 'G' here—blindlynx 23:11, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As exemplified by the long-running Luhansk / Lugansk dispute, transliterations of Ukrainian names and places into English, particularly those involving "g" and "h", will continue to be submitted to RM for years to come and may be inconsistently settled depending upon that week's political situation and / or WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:46, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: If there is a WP:COMMONNAME of this person used in English sources then this name must be used. If there is no common name, we need to use WP:UKR, which would render Supriaha.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:17, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ymblanter: Why Supriaha and not Supryaha (per Roman Spinner's comment above about KyivNotKiev)? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:56, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Romanization of Ukrainian/Ukrainian National transliteration table says я in the middle of the word is romanized as ia. There is no я in Kiev/Kyiv.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:14, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - 'Supryaha' is used by UEFA and Soccerway. Giant Snowman 12:26, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
oppose per GiantSnowman the current (nonstandard) transliteration seems to be most commonly used—blindlynx 16:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per official transliteration of Ukrainian language, and per UEFA site--RicardoNixon97 (talk) 13:24, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and comment: I was tempted to close as clearly no consensus to move is possible, but choose to !vote instead after realising how much of the oppose argument and discussion above I would have felt obliged to discard as having no basis in WP:AT. However if you dig through it I think a valid common name argument has also been made for opposing this proposed move, so I base my !vote on that. Andrewa (talk) 21:51, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.