Talk:Vishwananda

Untitled

I will now make a new attempt. This certainly isn't promotional, as it voices many critics, for example allegations of sexual abuse, a lack of legitimition for the claim of being a Vaishnava Acharya, having been convicted by a Swiss court for stealing christian relics. This is certainly not advertisemnt. I admit, that many of the sources and references are from German speaking, either newspapers, or websites, for example the evangelical church, which in Germany is one of the two official christian churches. These articles are in fact completely about Bhakti Marga and Vishwananda. Vhishwananda has his main center in Germany, he just bought a new one, containing actually a lake, but he is travelling to neighboring countries, has Ashrams and temples in all of these countries, is of course also active in India, is very popular in eastern European countries like Poland or Czech Republic. There is also an article in the Times of India, whatever that means: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/nashik/swami-vishwananda-becomes-first-mahamandaleshwar-from-outside-the-country/articleshow/49006144.cms It means that he is at least noteable, because mentioned by a large newspaper. I will keep editing on the draft, and am of course open to suggestions. And, no, I am not connected to him, even though I have met him in the past, so know a bit about the development of the whole thing. Thank you for reconsideration. Hanumandas (talk) 09:58, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello @Hanumandas,

I hope you're well. I've observed that the section on sexual allegations is consistently present. Given the court's findings, it seems these allegations weren't confirmed. I believe it's essential to ensure that our portrayal of Vishwananda aligns with BLP guidelines, especially when relying on unverified claims.

(https://www.fr.de/ratgeber/presseportal-sti1490726/hat-der-hessische-rundfunk-ein-sorgfaltsproblem-91472791.html)

Additionally, the marriage section seems to suggest a particular narrative about Vishwananda's status, that is against being an Acharya therefore I asume the consistent interest in adding that information from a video source that the court has expressed concerns about the thoroughness of this source, is for the sake of?. To maintain a neutral and comprehensive perspective, might we consider integrating a broader range of reputable sources? I noticed @Bbb23's mention you in the Talk Page regarding not falling into a "Edit War" approach, I am sure you are open to work constructively.

Lastly, the connection between Sai Baba and Vishwananda, as referenced by the source (@Skyerise highlighted) , appears to be from an organization that might have contrasting views to Hindu associations. Here's the link for reference: https://www.ezw-berlin.de/publikationen/artikel/bhakti-marga-in-der-kritik/. It might be worth re-evaluating its reliability in this context.

I've come across some additional information that might be helpful for a more comprehensive perspective for the section LIFE. Would you be open to reviewing it? It has at least same relevance (if not more) than the video that speaks about the marriage.

LIFE

Childhood

It was clear from very early on in Paramahamsa Vishwananda’s life that he is not an ordinary person. His biggest love was always God and his complete dedication and love to serve people caused changes in those around Him. His message of love and devotion has inspired people from all walks of life.

Vishwananda loved to spend time singing religious songs, which inspired his childhood friends to participate in religious worship.

From a young age, Guruji showed a deep inclination towards spirituality. He would often carry incense sticks and camphor to school and lead prayers during recess.

https://www.apnnews.com/paramahamsa-vishwanandas-enlightenment-and-his-early-years/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-kUQgiJe5w

Even as a toddler, Guruji's spiritual inclination was evident. At the age of three, he was found praying in a garden grotto, having been drawn to the sacred space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1EPU1ZjiI

He had a deep connection with spirituality, as evidenced by the manifestations of vibhuti (sacred ash), turmeric, oil, honey, and kumkum in his presence. Even during his summer jobs, Vishwananda saved money to buy murtis (sacred statues) and holy pictures, showing his unwavering devotion.

Vishwananda was often sought after for religious ceremonies. When priests were unavailable, people would turn to him to conduct rituals, indicating the trust and respect he commanded in the community.

Vishwananda devotion was not limited to one faith. He once visited a chapel and lit candles there, showcasing his respect for all forms of worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-kUQgiJe5w

Adolescence

He began to embrace his mission as a spiritual teacher after he experienced a state of samadhi at age 14, a deep meditative yogic-state of total immersion (complete absorption in the Divine). His vibrant personality and unmistakable realisation of the Divine began to attract more and more people seeking his blessings and advice. Despite his mother’s dismay, visitors lined up at home wanting to meet with ‘The Young Saint.’ He visited Europe for the first time. Very quickly, spiritual seekers started to gather to see him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-kUQgiJe5w

https://www.apnnews.com/paramahamsa-vishwanandas-enlightenment-and-his-early-years/

Adulthood:

He venerates the saints of all traditions, is a respected Vaishnava Acharya and brings the experience of God to everyone he meets. He shows us a unified message of love and a true path of Sanatana Dharma to the world projecting out the deep, venerable culture outside India’s borders.

https://www.apnnews.com/paramahamsa-vishwanandas-enlightenment-and-his-early-years/

Vishwananda began touring the world with this inspiring message in 2006, giving Satsangs, Darshans, and leading Pilgrimages to sacred locations.

By 2008, he had established Bhakti Marga’s principal Ashram near Frankfurt, Germany, and initiated the first religious leaders of the Bhakti Marga order. Since then, he has opened numerous Bhakti Marga temples and Ashrams all over the world, including India and the United Kingdom in 2016. Over the course of his illustrious life, he has received a number of prestigious honors including a Peace Pole award from the Peace Pole Project and a Bharat Gaurav Lifetime Achievement Award from the British House of Parliament.

https://infogram.com/sri-swami-vishwananda-1g43mn7z9gg42zy

Darshan Blessings from Vishwananda

As of 2022, Vishwananda has conducted 331 Darshans in 46 countries and 220 cities, during which approximately 133,000 people have received his blessings. When the COVID-19 pandemic restricted physical gatherings, Vishwananda started using online platforms to continue giving blessings to people all over the world. From 2020 to 2022, 385 online Darshans were held, with more than 288,000 participants

https://www.lebens-t-raeume.de/produkt/2023-07/

https://pdf.ac/1Nb9ep

ASHRAM PRINCIPLES AND LIFESTYLE COMMANDED BY VISHWANANDA

The Ashram Shree Peetha Nilaya, under the guidance of Vishwananda, is a place where 80 individuals come together to follow a spiritual path. They practice selfless service, sexual abstinence, vegetarianism, and abstain from alcohol and drugs. The Ashram practices sustainable living, growing their own vegetables primarily for self-sufficiency. The Ashram is a melting pot of cultures, with residents from 26 nations across four continents. This diversity brings about cultural and linguistic exchanges, enriching the community.

https://www.wiesbadener-kurier.de/lokales/kreis-rheingau-taunus/heidenrod-kreis-rheingau-taunus/gemeinsam-zur-hingabe-1469700

Thank you for considering these points. Looking forward to a collaborative approach. Giro 194 (talk) 21:06, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Hanumandas sorry the link to your name did not work in the message above. Giro 194 (talk) 21:07, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Neutrality

@Vishnu Das Rafael Espinosa: Hello. I kindly ask you that you present your suggested changes on this talk page one by one. I will implement good changes, the way they are properly done on Wikipedia, which may address some of your concerns about the neutrality of the article. If we end up disagreeing on certain points, other editors can weigh in, and to attract their attention you will be able to request a third opinion. I only ask that you respect my impartiality and good will, and that you be more concise than you were in your edit summaries, which have been very long. tw^sabin 18:23, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Hellow im glad to help. I dont know what process you follow and i will follow what you say but please take in consideration also the article as i changed it because i also took my time. The site repeats continously that Vishwananda claims, i personally see that the repeated use of this word looks after picturing him as a person who don t stop claiming things and this has a negative subjective use. I would use rather Bhakti Marga "stands" or " presents him as" if you want. I found also subjective to put the critics out of the section wich is made with that goal also. You see often in the article an acusation near an achievement with no deep context, only making it seem "bad". With references to all the accusative "sources" around the source code of the article. In the hindu context Babaji is an Inmortal spiritual master, who very few can encounter, so if you want to be objetive about Bhakti Marga defending Vishwananda being his disciple vs the other version explain both points of view,not only write Vishwananda claims that. You have to explain also that Bhakti Marga explains Vishwananda iniciation in the Sri Sampradaya made by Sri Vedavyasa Rangaraj Bhattar Acharya and that he didn t want to be related to Bhakti Marga, after if you want you put that there is no consens in the Sri Sampradaya about this, otherwise is unilateral and disconected. A word like Godman is not even used in Bhakti Marga and seems to want scare "foreign" people and neohinduism is a term used in an article wich wanted desprestigiate and attack our tradition, we study the Gita , the Bhagavatam, we have online and presencial courses were we teach the hindu scriptures and hinduism and is up to each person to study as much as he wants completing this with the speaked teaching of the Master wich is rich as you can t imagine. That s why the vision of an easy hinduism for capting adepts is false, it s true everybody who is sincere is welcomed to learn , for him to be helped and awaken but that is positive and has nothing to do aswell as the fact we give more importance to Love and devotion wich is the goal of spirituality as its writen in the Gita. You can put also that Bhakti Marga defends Vishwananda became Bishop, using all time he claims is very suspicious for the people who write this and no neutral. If someone criticized Om Chanting at concentration camps saying Bhakti Marga relativize holocaust , in my personal opinion it s a non based opinion and its not even explained what proves my point. Vishwananda choosed Germany exactly because he knew there was a big hurt in the country, he wanted to help and health on this. Vishnu Das Rafael Espinosa (talk) 18:58, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

That's not concise at all. It may take me quite long to reply. tw^sabin 19:02, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I would also like to be explained that Vishishtadvaita sees all the souls are part of God and in quality same but different in quantity, this is why we remain as spark if his divinity, as devotees and servants. Vishnu Das Rafael Espinosa (talk) 19:07, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

And hinduism doesn t change its pantheon when the tradition changes, only changes wich deity is seen as more important or supreme, so this is incorrect. Vishnu Das Rafael Espinosa (talk) 19:09, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Om Tw abin thanks for taking your time for this, i will wait for your answer even if its delayed. May be is unconcise, i dont know , it was concise at least as an edited article in terms of what to being changed, i have still access to part of that so i hope you too in order to help you to review and follow the conversation for changes as you asked me there. i just pointed my views as good as i could in this moment. Thank you. Vishnu Das Rafael Espinosa (talk) 19:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

How we can distingue what is an accusation made by hurt or interest with the one wich is based on a fact. And how can we measure how many provoqued that accusation and wich was really its experience? I only can say that my Master changed my life and my heart to a point i can be eternally grateful. Vishnu Das Rafael Espinosa (talk) 19:27, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Vishwananda

Vishwananda (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Several BLP violations are currently present on this page. Instead of factual/objective writing, the article is written in an opinionated/persuasive style. Thus, the Neutral Point of View and the Verifiability policy is being broken.

One example of the persuasive style of writing is in the "Life" subheading, pointing out that "critics claim he bought the title for 30,000 dollars", sources cite to Christian publications.

The bias also leads readers to believe that he bought a title, wherein for any initiation in Hinduism, a dakshina is given. It should be also noted that the historical significance has been left out of this article about that initiation (see https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/nashik/swami-vishwananda-becomes-first-mahamandaleshwar-from-outside-the-country/articleshow/49006144.cms).

The citations include links to tabloid-like websites (e.g. "Cult News 101") and links from the Protestant Church which directly has bias towards a Hindu Guru. Shiva is Love (talk) 04:32, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

AfD

This article has been marked as AfD by User:Shiva is Love. Since I created most of the content on this page, I guess I should say something.

1. I think the article should not be deleted. The subject, Vishwananda is noteable, as can be seen from the sources, notable newspaper outlets, for example German television and major newspapers. Here are two new example, just from last weekend. [2] [3]. These are just two recent examples, there are many more.
2. Shiva is Love has argued that Vishwananda is not adressed in the proper way, that is without his titles, like 'Swami', 'Shri', or 'Paramahamsa'. If I am not mistaken, this follows the name conventions by Wikipedia, I have tried to mold this article by looking at articles of similar figures, like Nithyananda for example. I may be wrong, and the convention has changed. I would also like to point out, that these titles are controversial in themselves, as you can actually see from the article.
3. I have actually tried to make a compromise in adjusting the language along the lines as Shiva is Love has suggested. It is revision 1171408565, (there is also a comment in the history that should make this clear). It was immediately undone by SiL, maybe in a reactive and not conscious way. If SiL is serious about it, that he doesn't want to remove the essentials form controversies (which I have trouble believing, according to my past experience with Bhakti Marga related editors), I really have no issue with many edits. Maybe Shiva is Love wants to look at those edits again. And I am more than happy to know and accept the naming convention, with regards to titles at WP. I really would be interested in the input of any experienced Admin. I have no problem with titles, I just thought it was a bit obsessive.
4. I also want to point out a thing about the Mahamandaleshwara title: You can look at the article, and it makes clear that it doesn't have much meaning in itself. It is something given at Kumbh Melas, it's purely honorific, is usually connected with a large donation to the sampradaya who issues it. According to the article 9 foreigners received this title only in 2019. The ToI article mentioning it is only the reprint of a press release. Just one year before Nithyananda received the same title by a Shaivaite order, Mahanirvana Sampradaya. Nirmohi Ani Akhara is a Vaishnava Akhara, I personally knew a Mahant of this Akhara, and Vishwananda has no real connection to it. IMHO just leave the whole thing off, it has no real significance.
5. While WP articles should not involve personal research, I cannot but point out, that a friend of mine was threatened by a leading Bhakti Marga member, threatening him by actions with lawyers, and trying to intrude into his private life. BM members obviously thought that he could delete the article. Likewise they have involved expensive lawyers in trying to take any controversial material down from the internet, private blogs, YouTube videos, tweets on Twitter etc.
6. I do know SV personally, I have met him on several occasions and originally thought very good of him. This was before he was called a Swami. This is decades back. But slowly, more and more, I started to hear the stories which are here described under controversies. I have friends who directly described and confirmed these to me. I know personal research does not count, but a German journalist, Marlene Halser has researched all these things, everything that is mentioned in the article, and published it in a 6 part podcast called 'Just Love'. This is a podcast published by the major German TV ARD. Some of it had to be modified, but much of the material is still online. 6 parts of about 50-60 mins, each, the second part had to be reduced to 30 mins, because of a lawsuit, that is still going on. I admire her work, and listened to every word. She also confirmed everything I knew myself.
7. On a personal level, I actually feel divided: if the article gets deleted, it is certainly less trouble for me. Why should I even be involved? But I feel that people should have free accessible information about it. Everybody can choose him- / herself. Maybe BM has also good things to offer, why not? But one should also be aware of the dangers involved in this organization. So my motivation was a sense of justice. I do not condemn Shiva is Love or look down on him or any other devotees. I wish him and all others the best.
8. I wish, if the article persists, that some WP admins will have a look and protect its universality and neutrality. Hanumandas (talk) 15:12, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

On #2, the relevant guideline is WP:NCIN, and you're correct to remove "Paramahamsa", which is an honorific. The nominator's reasoning for why the article should be the deleted (that it's subject to vandalism) is not a valid reason for deletion of the article of a notable person (if it's decided he is notable and deserving of a page). Dāsānudāsa (talk) 16:42, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Hanumandas (talk) 17:49, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Why then keep "Vishwananda" with that logic? That would also be honorific by your logic. Why would it be allowed for someone like Paramahansa Yogananda and all the other notables Swami's to have their title and not Paramahamsa/Swami Vishwananda? Shiva is Love (talk) 20:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Regarding Paramahamsa Yogananda. If you look at the article, you will see that only the lemma uses the honorific title, and the first mention in the article repeats the lemma. Afterwards, throughout the whole article, only the term Yogananda is used. So it follows the WP:NCIN. So then, why using the Paramahamsa in the Lemma? I don't know, my best guess is for disambiguation reasons. For example, in the German WP the Lemma is simply Yogananda. Hanumandas (talk) 10:17, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

AfD

Responses to User:Hanumandas

1. I agree that Paramahamsa Vishwananda is noteable and a Wikipedia page might have validity, but the current condition of the page clearly doesn't have a neutral tone and cites sources that are highly questionable in their motivation.

The Biography of living persons article is clear in its rules:

"Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages. The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores the material."

The sources you are citing are arguably sensationalist and lack the cultural understanding of Vedic practices . For example, in [2], it lacks the understanding on the importance of feet and abhishekam in Hindu culture as it seems to suggest that the washing of feet as a proof of Paramahamsa Vishwananda's threat. Hence the article, translated into English, is "How dangerous is the Rolex guru from the Taunus?" That source, along with many others (such as another source on the Vishwananda article, [2], from the Evangelical Church of Germany, is most arguably biased and lacking credibility for its claims.

2. There are several noteable figures, such as Paramahansa Yogananda and Swami Vivekananda who are given their proper title. By removing the Paramahamsa, or Swami, from "Vishwananda", you are automatically calling into question the validity of that noteable person. Hence, the bias is prevalent. In all of his social media accounts, there is the Paramahamsa, in several of his media/news coverage, there is the Paramahamsa or at least Swami.

3. I have no trouble with leaving in information with the controversies, hence, in my edits I did not remove those sections. But when our edit war began, it was such that every edit I made got "undo" from Hanumandas. Even the additional sentence of to the Mahamandleshwar initiation of Paramahamsa Vishwananda before the first person born outside of India to receive this title.[3] Why was this removed?

4. Hanumandas says that, the Mahamandaleshwar title, "...is usually connected with a large donation to the sampradaya who issues it." That sentence would be a much better fit than the current, "Critics claim that he bought the title for 30,000 dollars." I had also added information about dakshina but that was also removed. Whether we want to believe it was bought or not, I believe dakshina is a better term here than donation or bought due to the cultural context.

I also believe it's significant enough to leave in the article, because of the uniqueness of the event I cited. 3

5. This isn't a valid point because it only solidifies the subjectivity of this article and its bias, hence, my discussion for deletion. If you read the Biography of living persons policy, it states in the Balance sub-heading that:

"Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone. Do not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints; the views of small minorities should not be included at all. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and biased, malicious or overly promotional content."

Currently, there are 5 subheadings under the heading "Controversy," which all call into question the character of Paramahamsa Vishwananda. The sub-headings are: Theft of relics in Switzerland; Allegations of sexual transgressions; Distancing by Sri Vaishnava; Excommunication by the Catholic Orthodox Apostolic Church; Om chanting at concentration camps.

The two main headings above these are "Life" and "Bhakti Marga Activities" (which has three subheadings). From my perspective, on a reader's first glance, this seems to violate the Balance policy for Biography of living persons.

Also, the bias is prevalent from the beginning section of the article that labels "Vishwananda" as a "god-man." I believe this is a claim that lacks validity and neutrality. Yes, he is given an elevated status by his followers, but that evidence for this claim is lacking (aside from the citing of tabloid-like websites) and I believe that entire article calls into question the faith of many Hindus who believe in siddhis that Hindu saints can possess.

6. This only confirms your bias and your personal beliefs about Paramahamsa Vishwananda that have led to an article that is currently in violation of the writing style (namely, tone and balance) outlined in the Biography of living persons article.

7/8. I agree that people should have free accessible information and I am not trying to hide any of the controversies, however, the article is arguably an attack page that needs edits and a neutral point of view/dispassionate style of writing. Currently, I believe the article does not meet that standard and it is questionable if it ever will with such polar opposite opinions, evidence, and articles being cited.

Shiva is Love (talk) 18:41, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Yogananda

Paramahamsa Yogananda is mentioned by Shiva is Love. Well, it is clear that Vishwananda is regarded as a reincarnation of Yogananda by his followers, and he has confirmed this to various people in the past himself. (Cant't tell the Chapter now, but almost anything can be found in this series. I know it is there.) This is not officially said though, it's always said secretly, but it's the very first thing I had heard about him. I think it should also be included in the article. Vishwanandas name and titles, follow this convention. The emphasis on Babaji as the divine teacher, the teaching of Kriya Yoga, all follow this convention. For example in the Indian Swami orders, only sannyasis initiated into the Dasanami order have the ending '-ananda' in their name. The Dasanami tradition is Shaivic, not Vaishnava, and was founded by Adishankara. Usually Swamis of the Dasanami tradition follow one of ten branches, for example Bharati, Saraswati or Giri. Shri Yukteswar Giri, the guru of Yogananda was a member of the Giri branch of the Dasanami, and was initiated in the regular fashion by another Swami of that order. So Yogananda (Swami Paramahamsa Yogananda Giri) was initiated into the parampara (regular guru disciple lineage) of that order. But Yukteshwar was also the disciple of Lahiri Mahasaya, who wasn't a sannyasi and didn't have any swami names or titles. And he was initiated by Babaji, who is reagarded as a christlike, eternal figure. Vishwananda regards himself as a Vaishnava though, and this is also reflected in his philosophy, which is NOT kevela Advaita of Shankara, which would be the tradition of Yogananda. Vishwananda was also initiated into the Shri Sampradaya, but not as a sannyasin. He has a spiritual name, from the Shri Vaishnava, but it is not really used. Shri Vaishnava was founded by Ramanuja, so Ramanuja is worshipped as a Guru in his ashram. The third pillar - I would say there are three pillars, roughly corresponding to the gurus worshipped at the ashram - is Sai Baba. It is not denied that he was a follower of Sai Baba and went to Puttarpathi several times before he became a guru of his own. He performs similar 'miracles', manifestations as Sathya Sai Baba did. Yet Sathya Sai Baba is not mentioned on the website or any publications. There is a story I heard from several people, that he was thrown out from the ashram, when he visited there last time, I saw it on some blogs, but these aren't blogs which are permitted on WP as references. Since Sathya Sai Baba is not mentioned or worshipped by Bhakti Marga, Shirdi Sai Baba is (Sathya Sai Baba claimed to be the reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba). Similar to Sathya Sai, Vishwananda has also a universal appeal to include all religions, particularly Christianity, and the first logo of Bhakti Marga showed symbols of several religions. He has shifted his emphasis to Vaishanvism in recent years, for whatever reason. (May be to be acknowledged as a religion by German authorities.) Hanumandas (talk) 12:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Article split

I have split the organization from the person. There are sufficient sources to support each, so they should not have been combined. I have removed all unreliable sources and completed the many incomplete citations. In the future, please include the authors and dates of news articles.

The section on sexual allegations needs to be entirely rewritten, chronologically as it unfolded. I suspect that not all of the text is really supported by the remaining reliable sources. I don't read German so someone who does should attend to this. The article may still be in violation of WP:BLP, I just can't tell. Skyerise (talk) 15:42, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

While I agree with the split, and your cleaning up many references, I don't understand this: 6 part podcast series 'Just Love. Der Bhakti Marga Guru und sein Geheimnis', 'Just Love. The Bhakti Marga guru and his secret' by German broadcaster ARD, German. Why would that source not qualify? It is by the state-owned TV station in Germany. It has been shortened, because there was a court-case, and what is still in it, is permitted by German law. IMHO it's a very important source. - Hanumandas (talk) 15:55, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Simple, the fact that it had material that had to be removed by court order says that it wasn't reliable in the first place. There is no reason to believe anything in it is reliable: the court could only order defamatory material removed, it didn't guarantee that what remains is reliable. Skyerise (talk) 15:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

A bit too simple imo. 1. the court order are provisional injunctions (7) (einstweilige Verfügungen), it's not a final verdict and the law case is still going on. There were other indictments which the court decided in favor of the TV station. 2. The 6 part podcast is about many other things, basically all aspects of his life and his organization, while these injunctions were mainly about the sexual allegations. 3. I can't follow your logic, basically every known newspaper has had courtcases, just The Spiegel lost one - again only partially - against Till Lindemann from Rammstaein, and it was the same court that was picked by the lawyers, Landgericht Hamburg. By the same token you could call them unreliable as well.

I also strongly disagree that you removed https://koyil.de/2018/11/25/spotting-fake-acharyas/ as this is the official website of Shri Sampradaya in Germany. I have no idea why you removed it. How shall we make the claim that he portrayed himself as Acharya of Shri Sampradaya? by showing old versions of the website from archive.org? Does this count as valid reference? idk.

Lineage in Hindu religious organizations is very important, I think you know that. Especially for an organization that puts weight on Guru and Guruparampara.

We should also remove the ravived caste, somebody with an IP from Mauritius edited it in, I had wrongly copied from his own website that he is a Brahmin, normally the name should indicate the caste, but I don't think we have any external reliable source, so I would just leave it off. ~~~ Hanumandas (talk) 19:25, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

If there is a consensus to use the podcasts, citations need to give the time mark of the cited material, otherwise it is impossible to verify. I'm not saying there is a consensus, right now there isn't.

As for the koyil.de - we don't do "he said, (s)he said" based on self-published websites. The fact that it is his official website means it is under his control. If there is a lineage dispute, we should ignore it unless it is reported in independent sources. That goes for the claim being refuted also: if it is sourced to a third party, it should stand and requires a third-party source to contradict; if it is sourced to Vishwananda himself directly or through his organization without any backing third-party source, then it should be removed, as we can only cite simple facts to affiliated sites, not disputed claims. Skyerise (talk) 19:31, 25 August 2023 (UTC)r

Okay, thanks! Hanumandas (talk) 20:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

" ..as we can only cite simple facts to affiliated sites, not disputed claims." - so it's okay we cite websites or older versions of them, when it's more or less for undisputed historic references? Hanumandas (talk) 10:08, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Typically we cite only the most basic facts to an affiliated website. Birth dates, founding dates, places; but not teachings, titles, defenses, or interpretations . Does that help? Not so much things that aren't disputed, but rather things highly unlikely to be disputed. Skyerise (talk) 22:48, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Hari-bhakta

I added the ref because it’s not mentioned on the EZW site, it was started only in 2021. Hanumandas (talk) 12:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

If there's no third-party source, then leave it out. Affiliated sites can be used for birth dates and places, founding dates and places, and organizational motto or statement of purpose. They cannot be used for elaborating the teachings of the subject. If we allow that, we'll end up promoting the subject with a whole summary of their teachings all source to their organization's website. That's generally what happens if the believers' think it is okay to source to a non-independent source. From Wikipedia's point of view, we only know what's been reported by third parties. Skyerise (talk) 12:29, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

This guy fits a certain mold as it were. Every decade or so, out pops a new "guru" with no credentials to his name but "Babaji". If "Babaji" were real, then he'd be a member of Babaji's sampradaya. But everyone, including Indians, knows that Babaji is imaginary and so are the new emperor's credentials. The other features of the mold? Relatively young, virile, magnetic, hypnotic, establishes lots of ashrams with the money of credulous Westerners who don't know any better, and sends money back to India. That last point is why the Indians don't denounce these cookie-cutter gurus as frauds. They always teach "their own form" of "kriya yoga" and they usually mix up different strains and teachings of Hinduism in a way that a guru with an actual lineage would never do. Anyone who's been around the Indian spiritual scene for long knows them for what they are. As for their books, they rehash old classics and there is usually a ghostwriter involved. Skyerise (talk) 12:55, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

YES! There is also another one fitting this description, basically doing the same things, being pals even and that is Nithyananda. Nithyananda calls Vishwananda his small brother (because he plays it really big). I have to admit he has a sense of humour. Hanumandas (talk) 13:29, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm wondering why Yogananda isn't treated the same way as Carlos Castaneda. Everyone knows that the backstory of Mahavatar Babaji is just as fictional as current sources think Don Juan was. Though in Yogananda's case perhaps the story was made up by Lahiri Mahasaya and there seems to be a real lineage from Lahiri Mahasaya to Yogananda; but still, Yogananada filled-in the story of Babaji with fictional details... But no where does either his or Babaji's article mention this. Surely there are sources which doubt the historical reality of Mahavatar Babaji. Skyerise (talk) 14:03, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

AFAIK both Yukteswar Giri and Yogananda Giri were regularly initiated into the Dasanamy, as any Swami in that order could do so. So the Swami title wasn't really in question. The Autobiography is a book full of fictional characters and miracles, and was largely written by his successor Daya Mata, who was his secretary, of course he related to her these stories verbally. We never know the name of the sannyasi who initiated Yukteswar into the swami order, I don't think it is mentioned in the book. Also the term Kriya Yoga is mentioned only by him first, the term kriyas appear in the yoga scriptures throughout. There is a story in the autobiography that one particular Shankaracharya visited him in America. In India Yogananda has also been disputed by many. Lahiri Mahasaya was not a Swami and had no titles. Just the autobiography became 'cult' literature in the west, just like Castanedas books, this translated back to India. I once visited an Avadhuta in Chennai, and the Indian visitors were surprised to see a westerner there, so they ask me the whereabouts. Then they asked my if I had read the biography, just to confirm that I was in the know. So this book was really good marketing. Hanumandas (talk) 14:30, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. Skyerise (talk) 21:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

DoB

@Hanumandas Which reliable source (relative to this purpose) contains the date of birth? (We need the DoB in the body, with a citation.) —Alalch E. 18:34, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I will check through articles. Hanumandas (talk) 19:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

This one:

https://www.apnnews.com/paramahamsa-vishwanandas-enlightenment-and-his-early-years/ Hanumandas (talk) 19:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. We should find a better source for the date of birth. —Alalch E. 21:58, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Very difficult to find. The BM website says this: "Paramahamsa Vishwananda was born God-realised on 13 June 1978 on the beautiful island of Mauritius, off the coast of Africa." [4] (under: 'His early years'). German Articles usually just give the year. There is a big celebration of his birthday by BM every year. I found a discussion on a forum which said it's uncertain if it was the 13 or 14, but not a reliable source. [5] Hanumandas (talk) 22:28, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for researching that. We should only state the year, sourced to the German article(s), and omit the month and day. —Alalch E. 16:49, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Consequent point

Hellow, i would like to remark that after describing how the allegations were demonstrated fake…and having the court forbidden make public spread of that on newspapers: The only point explained in the section “personal life” is a rumour , even if is set as a rumour, extended by “those” who their accusations was demonstrated as false and forbidden to spread via newspaper…and this is the only written in personal life. Sorry but is nonsense, please remove the section or replace the section, he is a Swami but has family, last thing just a suggestion. The part where says the director of Bhakti Marga said he had a previous conviction for disturbing peace of dead seems very strange. Why the director of BM whould accuse him like that without even specifying what is? Please clarify this with Bhakti Marga itself or directly you can remove that part. Thank you, have a nice day 🙏 Vishnu Das Rafael Espinosa (talk) 18:45, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Information missing

@Skyerise

I've reviewed the article in question and have some concerns that I believe could enhance its accuracy and compliance with Wikipedia's guidelines.

1) References to Name and Birthplace: Reference #[1], currently used for the subject's name and place of birth, links to a negative article about the individual. It's crucial, especially in accordance with Wikipedia's policy on primary sources, and specifically BLP (Biographies of Living Persons), to exercise caution when such sources may contain bias or a negative portrayal. There are alternative, more detailed, and neutral references available from official and reputable sources that can provide basic biographical information. For instance, an acceptable primary source for this case would be https://paramahamsavishwananda.com/biography/.

2) Sexual Abuse Section: Concerning the section addressing suspicions of sexual abuse, and the section's title itself, "In a January 2022 television and podcast documentary…affidavit at the court through his lawyer…major German newspapers"... the current presentation might lead to misunderstanding. A more accurate description, in line with the available court case information, would be: In January 2022 Hessischer Rundfunk, a regional broadcast arm of German state broadcaster ARD, released a TV documentary in which suspicions of sexual coercion were broadcast against Paramahamsa Vishwananda. The law firm acting on behalf of Paramahamsa Vishwananda sought injunctions at the regional court of Hamburg citing "numerous offences against principles of permissable reporting, untrue statements and blatant rights offences". The court judged that there was 'a lack of evidence to broadcast such a suspicion' and ruled in favour of Paramahamsa Vishwananda, issuing seven injunctions against the TV show which resulted in its removal from the ARD Mediathek platform. Hessischer Rundfunk's serious journalistic failings were further highlighted after they alleged an identifiable follower of Paramahamsa Vishwananda had tried to commit suicide after suffering sexual abuse, without checking with the alleged victim if the allegation was actually true. The follower in question denied any such abuse or suicide attempt ever occured. The follower took legal action against HR, obtaining injunctions about the misreporting about him and HR admitted their journalistic failure to take simple steps to verify the allegations. HR's journalistic failings were widely reported in major German newspapers such as Der Spiegel and Suddeutschezeitung. https://www.fr.de/ratgeber/presseportal-sti1490726/hat-der-hessische-rundfunk-ein-sorgfaltsproblem-91472791.html

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/medien/guru-hr-missbrauch-sekte-just-love-1.5563546 "Reports of allegations of abuse: The Bhakti Marga religious community successfully sues Hessischer Rundfunk"

https://www.spiegel.de/kultur/hr-doku-ueber-missbrauch-ein-us-amerikaner-wird-zum-opfer-erklaert-doch-der-sender-hat-nie-mit-ihm-gesprochen-a-880b2009-1999-430e-b190-7bfdd1d52094 "Man is declared a victim of abuse - without asking him The HR reports on sexual abuse in a neo-Hindu community. One of the anonymized victims says his case never happened. The broadcaster has not spoken to the man. Now he is defending himself."

Given the sensitivity of this case and Wikipedia's potential impact on public perception it might be prudent to consider either removing this section or updating it with the most recent court information.

thanks for consideration Giro 194 (talk) 11:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC)