Talk:Virtual disk and virtual drive

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Requested move 11 July 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 13:10, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Virtual disk → Virtual disk (disambiguation) – "Virtual disk" is a title primarily associated with disk image. A tag attesting to this problem has been placed on the dab page on 16 February 2014; 16 months ago (2014-02-16). So, the object of this request is to move the page, so that "virtual disk" can be redirected to "disk image". --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 17:54, 18 July 2015 (UTC) – Codename Lisa (talk) 15:55, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Codename Lisa: This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:47, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I don't see a such a dominance in Google results, multiple concepts come up, one of which is for images, others are virtualized drives, logical volumes, main memory RAM disks, etc. -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 09:31, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. I am afraid I find your statement inconsistent with the truth! I searched "Virtual disk" in Google and 29 out of the 30 top search results are about the "disk image" sense; the remaining one is this same Wikipedia article. Yes, there are results about "virtualized drives" (especial "virtual CDs") but all of them are covered in "Disk image". But there is not a single result about "logical volumes", "main memory", "RAM disks" or "etc."; the result is purely about disk image and its function in virtualization.

Here is the Google search URL:
www.google.com/search?q=Virtual+disk&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

And here is a screenshot to prove that:
drive.google.com/open?id=0B8tNkKG_EzjZaGRLSjd2S0tsRXc

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 18:06, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your thoughts, 67.70.32.20, but I'm afraid IP addresses can't !vote due to the possibility of sock puppetry. Please log in. – voidxor 20:47, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
IP Editors are treated no differently than registered editors, and this is not a vote; when the decision is made it will be based on the nature of arguments not the number of "voters" Scr★pIron^IV 20:59, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's why I put an exclamation point in front of the word "vote" and linked Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion. It's also why I struck the IP's !vote and not their comments. – voidxor 21:34, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support A virtual disk is a file that behaves in the Operating System as if it were a disk; the term disk image is another good descriptor. We have other names for other concepts; Cloud drives, Clone drives, Mirror drives, Logical drives... But a virtual disk is a file containing a disk image, whether it resides in RAM or resides on a physical drive. Scr★pIron^IV 19:35, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support the move/rename to disambiguation. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:33, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon: this is not a WP:VOTE. Do you have a reason? ~Kvng (talk) 14:26, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. If I wanted to put up a fallacious argument against the move, I'd have said "a disk image is not a virtual disk unless mounted". It is a fallacious argument because the disk image article clearly holds the prose on the primary topic of virtual disk because these too are very close anyway. On the other hand, it takes a lot of generosity of interpretation to include logical volume and RAM disk in this disambiguation page, especially RAM disk, which violates WP:PTM. In fact, a RAM disk is quite actual, albeit volatile. (The actual term is virtual RAM disk, in which virtual is a metaphor for not hardware, so that it stands out from hardware RAM disk.) Fleet Command (talk) 21:14, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
~~Oppose~~ - This is not well-established terminology. Disk image is not clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as Virtual image is not even mentioned in the lead there. No harm in disambiguating until this becomes more clear. ~Kvng (talk) 14:26, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Kvng:. Hi. I missed you.

"Virtual image [sic] is not even mentioned in the lead". Well, go ahead and mention it, because the article has an entire Disk image § Virtualization.

"This is not well-established terminology". Actually, I showed evidence that it is, with links and all. Can I see your evidence?

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 07:28, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dropping opposition to this. I got confused. Hopefully the new order will be less confusing. ~Kvng (talk) 21:43, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - disk image is the primary topic for virtual disk. Any problems can be solved with a hatnote. Sovereign Sentinel (talk) 07:01, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: After having a look at the Logical disk and Disk image articles and their sources, IMHO Virtual disk should be redirected to Logical disk and Virtual disk (disambiguation) shouldn't exist at all. If we go into technical details, a disk image is essentially a file that contains a snapshot of a volume, logical storage device, or a whole physical storage device. On the other hand, a disk image becomes a logical or virtual disk when treated in a special way by the operating system, pretty much the same as how a physical storage device becomes one or more logical storage devices: essentially, a large collection of bytes gets its meaning and function due to the operating system's "magic". Thus, IMHO "virtual disk" is just another term for logical disks, which the Logical disk and Disk image articles are pretty much already describing that way (some additional cleanups might be advisable). — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 11:43, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Moreover, please have a look at the page 7 in this source; when read carefully, it's clear that a virtual disk is not the disk image that backs it. Another source only confirms that. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 12:08, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, that is completely true: A disk image become a virtual disk when it is mounted on a virtual disk drive. I myself and User:FleetCommand both said it earlier. Only, there is a full Disk image § Virtualization section. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 14:21, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, I've just elaborated it further, but it would be correct to redirect Virtual disk to Logical disk, not to Disk image. A couple of references linked above clearly support that. Moreover, IMHO it would be much better not to have Virtual disk (disambiguation) at all because it just introduces confusion. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 00:45, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dsimic, you remind me of my own past; when I overvalued technical correctness so much. Then I discovered that there are many other things as important. The important thing here in this discussion is that when people are looking for "virtual disk", 99.99% times they are looking for the virtualization meaning. That's what's important here. If we redirect them to "logical volume", we are just keeping them away from the info they are looking for. "Logical volume" is going where terms like conventional memory, upper memory area, expanded memory and extended memory are going. Fleet Command (talk) 06:21, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, well... If one works for money, then it's important what the boss says and not much else matters. On the other hand, if one works for free on creating an online encyclopedia, then it's important what's technically correct and the story ends there. (I probably don't need to remind why free/open-source software is many times better than the equivalent commercial software.) Thus, I strongly disagree that we should follow the masses and introduce technical nonsense as a result; if we want to help people find what they need, then the redirection should be done in the correct way (→ Logical disk), and a {{Redirect}} hatnote be included to refer readers to another article (→ Disk image). — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 06:49, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As you say, if you are doing it for Wikipedia, it stands to reason to respect its concept of primary topic which values linguistic correctness as much. ScrapIronIV has provided a Google search investigation above, proving this. And the virtualization meaning is not technically incorrect; in fact there is nothing wrong with it. Fleet Command (talk) 07:26, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You can always outvote me, but the references prove exactly the opposite. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 07:42, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Very well. Fleet Command (talk) 07:44, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Very well what? :) Furthermore, it depends on one's background what might seem wrong or correct; many people don't know the difference between "IP" and "IP address", for example. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 07:47, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Dsimic asked me to comment here.
- I think the term "virtual disk" is used in at least four main senses: 1) as a disk configured as part of a virtual machine (no good target, although Disk image#Virtualization would probably suffice); 2) as a disk image mounted in said virtual disk (although somewhat of a colloquialism, any good examples of people saying this instead of just "disk image"?); 3) in Windows, a drive letter that is not associated with a physical disk (primarily mounted ISO images, and I believe never for a RAM disk, PC-DOS's VDISK.SYS is too obscure; again, no good targets); 4) in SAN and mainframe environments, a logical disk.
- Especially the fourth usage is so common that I would be rather hesitant to declare "disk image" to be the primary meaning of this phrase. "virtual disk" gives me 639k ghits, "virtual disk" mainframe 212k, "virtual disk" san 229k, "virtual disk" "virtual machine" 323k, and "virtual disk" "disk image" 148k.
- If this were to be redirected to Disk image#Virtualization, a hatnote pointing to Logical disk would suffice. No need to keep this around as Virtual disk (disambiguation).
—Ruud 09:42, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with the three items, especially with the last. However, I'd like to know more about the source of these "hits", i.e. what has registered them? Nevertheless, the result is pretty much what I expected: the "virtual disk + virtual machine" seems to have their highest hit among the other four, i.e. 323k. The "virtual disk + disk image" has the lowest, because they are synonyms and are rarely used in the same sense in the same article. Fleet Command (talk) 16:54, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In order to be as neutral as possible regarding related sources, I took some more time to research how various glossaries define "virtual disk" as a term:
https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19658-01/820-4933-15/RAID_glossary.html: "A storage unit created by a RAID controller from one or more physical disks. Although a virtual disk may be created from several physical disks, it is seen by the operating system as a single disk. Depending on the RAID level used, the virtual disk may retain redundant data in case of a disk failure."

https://www.vmware.com/pdf/master_glossary.pdf: A file or set of files that appears as a physical disk drive to a guest operating system. These files can be on the host machine or on a remote file system. See also growable disk, physical disk, preallocated disk.

https://www.vmware.com/support/ws4/doc/ws40_glossary.html: A virtual disk is a file or set of files, usually on the host file system, that appears as a physical disk drive to a guest operating system. These files can be on the host machine or on a remote file system. When you configure a virtual machine with a virtual disk, you can install a new operating system into the disk file without the need to repartition a physical disk or reboot the host. See also Raw disk.

http://www.symantec.com/security_response/glossary/define.jsp?letter=v&word=virtual-disk: A logical disk that you configure on a storage array to provide storage to the media server. A storage object that appears as a physical disk drive to a guest operating system. This storage object can be either on the host computer or a remote computer.

http://download.parallels.com/desktop/v9/ga/docs/ko_KR/Parallels%20Desktop%20User%27s%20Guide/33314.htm: A file that emulates the virtual machine's hard disk.

http://searchservervirtualization.techtarget.com/definition/virtual-drive: A virtual disk (also known as a virtual drive or a RAM drive) is a file that represents as a physical disk drive to a guest operating system. The file may be configured on the host and also on a remote file system. The user can install a new operating system onto the virtual disk without repartitioning the physical disk or rebooting the host machine.

Then, let's see how some glossaries define "disk image" as a term:
http://www.symantec.com/security_response/glossary/define.jsp?letter=d&word=disk-image-backup: A bit-by-bit rather than a file system backup of a disk drive on a Windows platform.

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/disk-image: A disk image is a copy of the entire contents of a storage device, such as a hard drive, DVD, or CD. The disk image represents the content exactly as it is on the original storage device, including both data and structure information. A disk image of a hard drive may be saved as a virtual hard disk (VHD).

http://www.backupreview.com/glossary/disk-image/: A disk image is an exact copy of a hard drive. It includes all the files, the operating system, and the boot information. Disk images can be used to recover a computer to the state it was in when the backup was made. The primary benefit is that you don’t need to re-install the operating system or applications, thus saving time when recovering from a failed drive.

Quite frankly, all those sources clearly say that a "virtual disk" isn't exactly the same thing as "disk image". As already explained, virtual disks do have files that store actual data, but those files technically aren't disk images. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 05:24, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose: I was also asked here by Dsimic. To me, "virtual disk" has always been synonymous with "logical disk". That's why it's boldfaced in the lede of that article. I did not know until now that "virtual disk" could mean "disk image". I've mounted disk images several times under Linux and always referred to them as either disk images or loop devices. Since this is circumstantial evidence based only on my computing experience and on the lede of Logical disk, I'm casting a weak !vote. – voidxor 21:42, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Drive vs. disk

Attn: Dsimic, FleetCommand

Hi.

How do you do?

As far as I remember, "disk" is the component that retains information while "drive" is the component that performs the storage and retrieval. In floppy disk, Zip disk, CD, DVD, Blu-ray and flash memory, the disk is separate from the drive. In physical HDD, SSD and UFD, the disk and the drive are in the same unit and inseparable. But here is the important part: Virtual disks and virtual drives are always separate. i.e. Virtual disk is an app, like Windows Logical Disk Manager, Daemon Tools or VirtualBox, while the virtual disk is a VHD, ISO image, VMDK and so on. They can always be taken apart.

So, I think the article should read:

Disk image, a computer file that contains the exact structure of an actual disk

...

RAM disk, which stores its data in random-access memory instead of on a physical disk

...because a disk image (VHD, ISO, VMDK), which is inert data, always plays the part of the storage unit, not the recording and retrieval component. Same is for the RAM disk.

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 14:51, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! It's very good to have a detailed discussion here, instead of exchanging brief messages through edit comments.

Speaking of HDDs, referring to disks actually specifies the platters, while referring to the drive focuses on the electromechanical device that (beside other things) holds the platters. That's why, for example, using hard disk instead of hard disk drive is technically incorrect because it excludes everything except the platters, which are rather unusable on their own. However, drive, not disk, is a common abbreviation for hard disk drive.

Certainly, a disk image can contain the exact structure of a whole HDD, although using drive image would be somewhat more suitable in that case. Thus, having "a computer file that contains the exact data structure of an actual drive or removable media" in the first bullet point is actually much more correct than having "a computer file that contains the exact structure of an actual disk". With the latter, a disk image technically couldn't contain a snapshot of a multi-platter HDD.

Speaking about the second bullet point, having "which stores its data in random-access memory instead of on a physical disk" instead of "which stores its data in random-access memory (RAM) instead of on a storage device" would, techically, mean that flash-based storage devices aren't excluded because, simply, they contain no disks. :) As a note, we have solid-state drives, not solid-state disks, which goes along with the absence of disks inside SSDs.

I hope that the whole description above isn't too much of hairsplitting. :) — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 15:48, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I see two problems:

"...using hard disk instead of hard disk drive is technically incorrect..." You forgot that English language vastly employs "metonymy" and for a purpose too. "Hard disk" is usually used in place of "hard disk drive" when the intention is to refer to what constitutes the logical disk. English is always like this. For example, it is usually "the traffic police arrested a guy who ran over a woman" instead of "the traffic police arrested a guy whose car ran over a woman"; the metonymy here means the person was in the car and is responsible for the accident. Without metonymy, (i.e. "technically") the sentence would mean the person was running and run over a woman. You yourself has used a metonymy in the following sentence:

"However, drive, not disk, is a common abbreviation for hard disk drive." (It is not called an abbreviation; it is a generic-for-specific metonymy.) Not in this context: Given the paragraph that appears immediately before the disputed area, "drive" in this context can only mean "an optical disc drive, a floppy disk drive, or a hard disk drive" and "disk" means "an optical disk, floppy disk or hard disk". Well, other types of disks too, but to cover them, you need to modify the preceding paragraph.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 17:20, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that my whole hard-disk-drive-related description is based on an extensive discussion that took place on Talk:Hard disk drive, and was initiated by a request for the Hard disk drive article to be renamed to Hard drive. Thus, it isn't solely my opinion, but a summary of opinions from multiple editors, which were also backed by multiple sources, etc. Oh, and I totally misused "abbreviation" in the second quotation above, should've used "shorthand" instead. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 17:37, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please have a look at Talk:Hard disk drive#Archive 21 for the above-mentioned renaming discussion. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 17:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Again, like I said, the context is not just HDD. The context is all disks (and discs). HDD is only one of the many storage devices. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 17:47, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agreed, but the whole thing pretty much extends further to other types of storage devices. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 17:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It does. Yes. —Codename Lisa (talk) 18:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I am very much mistaken, you guys have reached full agreement. So, I am not disputing it. Fleet Command (talk) 06:33, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. Moreover, "storage device" is the most universal term in this context, which your edit made to be used in a consistent manner. Thank you for that. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 21:16, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]