Talk:Vincent Ogé

Merge proposal - same person?

Vincent Ogé and Jacques Vincent Ogé appear to be the same person - at least they have the same birth dates. It is confusing. Mattisse 17:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• I believe they are one and the same. The articles are now merged, and expanded. Ohconfucius (talk) 03:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

i made a series of changes on March 27, 2009, reflecting new biographical information about Ogé that is about to appear in a collection of articles. I will post the citation soon. People have been confusing Vincent and Jacques Ogé since the 1790s. Jacques was the older brother of the pair. He was involved in Vincent's revolt and was tortured to death in much the same way, days after Vincent. Before he died, perhaps to bargain for his life, Jacques made a "confession" that was published as the "testament of Oge." In this testament he hinted that a greater uprising was about to occur and that he could help authorities prevent it, if they would spare his life. He hinted that powerful whites were involved in this plot. This idea of a white conspiracy to support Oge and even a slave rebellion was very attractive among white counter-revolutionaries who were driven from Saint-Domingue in 1793 by the slave uprising. They published Jacques's testament in Philadelphia as "Ogé's testament". The pamphlet does not make it clear that this was Vincent's brother. This appears to be the origin of the confusion about the identities of these two men. Altaar (talk) 14:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect footnote

1. 2 is incorrect, as that page has nothing about the father of Oge, but says his mother had a coffee plantation outside town. I'm changing it.--Parkwells (talk) 22:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I put a ref to my book. There's also a Garrigus article that I have the pre-release text of, I don't know where it's coming out. He cites CARAN (French National Archives), Dxxv 58, dossier 574, page 6, for a legal case revealing more details about Ogé's family ties. Don't know if anybody would like to poach Garrigus' footnotes or if indeed it is legit in Wikipedia to cite primary sources.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Vincent Ogé/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) 15:08, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I'll get to this shortly. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:08, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• I randomly googled three phrases and only turned up Wikipedia mirrors. Earwig's tool shows no sign of copyright violation.
• Spot checks:
  • "On March 1790, deputies of the National Constituent Assembly approved an ambiguously worded law granting full voting rights to free people of colour in French colonies. After the law had passed, Ogé returned to Saint-Domingue, travelling in secret to avoid attracting attention from hostile planters. During his journey, he made a stop in London to consult with abolitionists in Britain, including Thomas Clarkson. After meeting with Clarkson, who was sympathetic towards Ogé's arguments for rights for free people of colour, he landed in Saint-Domingue via Charleston, South Carolina." is sourced to Kennedy pp. 130-138. Unfortunately, the only parts that appear supported by this source is that Oge arrived in Saint-Domingue. The "On March 1790, deputies of the National Constituent Assembly approved an ambiguously worded law granting full voting rights to free people of colour in French colonies. After the law had passed, Ogé returned to Saint-Domingue, travelling in secret to avoid attracting attention from hostile planters. During his journey, he made a stop in London to consult with abolitionists in Britain, including Thomas Clarkson. After meeting with Clarkson, who was sympathetic towards Ogé's arguments for rights for free people of colour" and "via Charleston, South Carolina." does not appear to be supported by the source.
  • "At the time, Saint-Domingue formed the western part of the island of Hispaniola and was under French colonial rule as part of France's colonies in the West Indies. Ogé's parents were Jacques Ogé, a white Frenchman, and Angélique Ossé, a free woman of color; he also had several brothers and sisters." is sourced to King p. 208 but this does not support the information. "Angelique Osse" does not even appear in the index of King, and p. 208 contradicts the wiki article, as it says "revolutionary leader Vincent Oge, who was the son, apparently legitimate, of a white Cap negociant, also named Vincent". Nor does this page of King support "At the time, Saint-Domingue formed the western part of the island of Hispaniola and was under French colonial rule as part of France's colonies in the West Indies." or " a white Frenchman, and Angélique Ossé, a free woman of color; he also had several brothers and sisters."
  • "He was sentenced to death, and Ogé was executed by being broken on the wheel on 6 February in the presence of Blanchelande and several politicians from the colonial assembly." is sourced to Tise p. 219 which flatly contradicts this information by saying that the execution occurred on March 9, 1791. Nor does page 210 say the execution took place in front of Blanchelande or several politicans.
  • "Six months after Ogé's executions, rebel slaves led by Dutty Boukman rose in revolt, sparking the Haitian Revolution." is sourced to Lester p. 110 which is actually found on p. 111 but it doesn't specifically tie this to the Haitian Revolution ...
  • "Though Ogé never fought against the institution of slavery itself, his execution was frequently cited by rebel slaves during the revolution as a justification for continuing to resist the French colonial government rather than accept prospective peace treaties. After twelve years of fighting, the rebels successfully overthrew French rule in Saint-Domingue." is sourced to Rogozinski p. 167 which does not support the information cited to it.
• Given the above issues - and that I've checked all the sources available to me on Internet Archive and found issues with all of them (I cannot access Garrigus which is the majority of the sourcing for this article), I'm leaning towards failing this article. There are serious problems here and it makes me concerned about the rest of the sourcing. I'm not quite failing it yet but it's right on the edge. Ealdgyth (talk) 18:37, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
  • @Dabberoni15: it's been 8 days, any response? Ealdgyth (talk) 14:59, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
    • Well, given no reply or work on this, I'm failing this article, with regret. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:52, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Dabberoni's attempt to classify Vincent Ogé as Haitian

@Dabberoni15: has repeatedly made edits to this article attempting to indicate that Vicent D'Ogé was Haitian. D'Ogé was born in Saint-Domingue, a member of the elite Creole class, and died in Saint-Domingue never having changed from being a Creole of Saint-Domingue. I ask you then, oh Wikipedians, how can D'Ogé be Haitian, as Dabberoni15 wishes to purport, if Haiti didn't even exist until 14 years after his death? The push by Dabberoni15 to name him as a Haitian is as illogical & anachronistic as saying that Alexander the Great conquered Turkey, or that Italians established the greatest empire in the Mediterranean. Aearthrise (talk) 18:26, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Other prominent individuals born in the same region as Ogé and in the same time period, such as Toussaint Louverture, Jean-Jacques Dessalines and Dutty Boukman (who died around the same time as Ogé did) are repeatedly described as "Haitian" in academic sources on the subject. Does someone's nationality have anything to do with their social class? "Dominican Creoles" are (to the best of my knowledge) not, and never have been, an independent nationality. While I appreciate that you have spent a great deal of time on Wikipedia contributing information related to this topic, attempting to apply the label of "Dominican Creole" here is in my view inappropriate. While my sources don't definitively state his nationality, none of them refer to him as a "Dominican Creole", nor do I think such a label is appropriate as a descriptor in lieu of a nationality. Ogé was born and died a French subject, but that does not make it correct to refer to him as "French". As such, I decided to refer to him as "Haitian-born" (not "Haitian"- there is a significant difference between the two terms) as my sources state that he was born in modern-day Haiti, and calling him "Saint-Dominican born" would be illogical as that entity no longer exists. Thus, this descriptor notes where he was born while avoiding the pitfall of making a definitive statement on his nationality. However, if you can supply reliable sources which definitively refer to him as a "Saint-Dominican" individual, i.e. "Ogé, a Dominican Creole revolutionary...", then I will happily support your edits- or, if you let me know something about Ogé that I'm unaware of, such as "Saint Dominican" being an suitable categorization for one's nationality in a French colonial context, then I will also gladly support your changes. In the meantime, I will revert your edits until a conclusion is reached on the talk page. Regards, Dabberoni15 (talk) 19:15, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

To call Vincent Ogé as Haitian-born is completely illogical. Vincent Ogé was not born in Haiti, he was born in Saint-Domingue.

I've added a quotation from a book on the first black republic describing Vincent Ogé: Un quarteron, Vincent Ogé, un mulâtre Saint-Dominguois, activiste pour la cause des noirs en France, originaire du nord de la colonie était dans le même cercle d'idées que la "French antislavery society"...

A quarteroon, Vincent Ogé, a Saint Dominican mulatto, activist for the cause of blacks in France, native to the north of the colony was in the same circle of ideas as the "French antislavery society"...

Your attempted change to call him Haitian-born doesn't reflect reality Dabberoni15. Aearthrise (talk) 19:35, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

As I said before, if you added a source directly characterizing him as such I would support your edit. Since this has been done I think the matter is resolved, but if you have other things to address please let me know. Regards, Dabberoni15 (talk) 20:37, 24 January 2023 (UTC)