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Ethnicity

The lede of the article says: "Vikings were seafaring Norse people from Southern Scandinavia". In light of new research, could we please find a way to update this to match what is now known.

Sources:

1. Science Magazine
2. Science Daily / University of Cambridge
3. Nature

Now cutting-edge DNA sequencing of more than 400 Viking skeletons from archaeological sites scattered across Europe and Greenland will rewrite the history books as it has shown:

• Skeletons from famous Viking burial sites in Scotland were actually local people who could have taken on Viking identities and were buried as Vikings.
• Many Vikings actually had brown hair not blonde hair. Viking identity was not limited to people with Scandinavian genetic ancestry.
• The study shows the genetic history of Scandinavia was influenced by foreign genes from Asia and Southern Europe before the Viking Age.
• Early Viking Age raiding parties were an activity for locals and included close family members. The genetic legacy in the UK has left the population with up to six per cent Viking DNA.

The six-year research project, published in Nature today (16 September 2020), debunks the modern image of Vikings and was led by Professor Eske Willerslev, a Fellow of St John's College, University of Cambridge, and director of The Lundbeck Foundation GeoGenetics Centre, University of Copenhagen.

St John's College, University of Cambridge, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200916113544.htm

To start, I'd offer a simple edit: "Vikings were seafaring people of primarily Norse origin."

--Blomsterhagens (talk) 19:48, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

@Blomsterhagens:, theres just a little problem with that, namely its not true, and we shall not spread lies on Wikipedia. Not one single prime source claim that "Vikings were seafaring people of primarily Norse origin". Contrary, several sources mention vikings as people from Israel, Arabia, and even a greek king. Professor John H Lind, has pointed out, there is zero affiliation between Scandinavians and the word viking, since it just was the translation of the latin pirate, until it was replaced by the term pirate. Therefore, it should be clear, already in the intro, that it had only one mening, pirate, and that they could be from anywhere in the world. Dan Koehl (talk) 23:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

If you originate from Southern Scandinavia in the 9th or 10th century, then you are Norse by definition. We don't have much evidence for Slavic settlement in the region before AD 1000. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 13:54, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Trimmed the suggestion to stay on topic. Slavic ethnicities should be off-topic for this thread, because that's not what the sources are about. What exactly the other ethnicities were is an ongoing topic and should be discussed separately. This is only a topic about the fact that not all vikings were of Scandinavian origin. The new research linked to above is very clear on that. --Blomsterhagens (talk) 15:09, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Norse by one definition. Historians of Anglo-Saxon England often distinguish between Danish and Norse (Norwegian) Vikings. For example, Dorothy Whitelock in her translation of ASC A for 920 refers to "English and Danish, Norsemen and others" (English Historical Documents, p. 217), whereas Michael Swanton has "English and Danish and Norwegians and others" (The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, p. 104). We need to be aware that there is not an agreed meaning of 'Norse'. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:58, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Whatever the definition of Norse is, this is a verbatim quote: "World's largest DNA sequencing of Viking skeletons reveals they weren't all Scandinavian". So by definition, the lede can not say that "vikings were norse". It is incorrect. It can say they were primarily norse or primarily Scandinavian. The "slavic" comment above is off-topic. Slavic ethnicites are not a topic here. The only topic is that it is a fact that not all vikings were of Scandinavian origin. What exactly the other ethnicities were, should not be the scope for now, because it's a separate area of research and should be discussed in separate threads. --Blomsterhagens (talk) 15:02, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi, as far as I understand the referenced articles, as well as other relevant articles on European genetic makeup both in the cited sources as well as in Wikipedia, there has been a lot of mixing of populations going on in Europe for the last 25000 - 35000 years or so, with predominantly West Asian as well as East Asian admixtures, etc. etc. So it should come as no wonder that "the Vikings", too, have a mixed genetic makeup. However, the core problem lies in the perception of "the Viking Age" as A Thing, "the Vikings" as A People, and even more the weirdly specific start and end dates. Disregarding these slightly Anglo-centric perspectives to include Classical and Migration Age population movements would solve some problems, as would clearing the the confusion of Scandinavian population, culture and history on the one side, and the popular image of fur-clad monastery raiders on the other. As one of the cited sources says, "viking" is a job description, not an ethnic group. But y'all know this. T 84.208.86.134 (talk) 22:45, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi, and of course there's this little tidbit from sciencemag: "To the team’s surprise, there was little evidence of genetic mixture within Scandinavia itself. Although a few coastal settlements and island trading hubs were hot spots of genetic diversity, Scandinavian populations farther inland stayed genetically stable—and separate—for centuries. “We can separate a Norwegian person from a Swedish person from a Danish person,” Sindbæk says." T 84.208.86.134 (talk) 23:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

I can agree with you, that there is a hell of a lot of over-conceptualization in all of this, and what's even worse is the tendency to view these things in terms of modern standards and values. A big problem I see is one of etymological fallacy: the belief that the meaning of a word today has anything to do with it's original meaning. We have to write this article using the English language, and using the words as they are commonly understood in English. That makes anything we write to some degree or another Anglo-centric. The Viking Age is a great example, because that is a very English way of describing the time period, and the dates are based upon English experience with them. There not much we can do to change the language, as much as that pains some people. We have to work within the confines the language provides us.

That's one aspect of over-conceptualizing the situation. Another is putting too much focus on things like ethnicity. At the end of the day, the Scandinavians were just as much Germanic as the Angles were, and there is little variation between them. That's where we start putting in these racial divides that were really non-existent back then. Back then, divisions were based more upon things like language and customs, and by far most predominantly, religion. Religion was everything back then. While King Alfred was fighting the Northmen on one front, he was also fighting the Celtic Britons on the other. On the one hand was a religion they could relate to, being the Angle's old Germanic religion. When the Angles became Christian, their religion never really changed (not to this day). It's still very much the old Viking religion, only with different names. (Just like Santeria, where the voodoo religions of Africa became Christian, but the only thing that changed was that their gods are now named after saints.) The Britons, on the other hand, were viewed as devil worshippers, and this is still carried on today in English ideas of witchcraft. Even our modern depiction of the devil come directly from the Celtic god Cernunnos.

Religion was everything back then, and when everyone else had been converted, Norway was still one of the last holdouts of the old ways. And I know, today everything has to be racially motivated, like it's mandatory or something, but it just wasn't always that way. We seem to gloss completely over the one thing that really separated the Vikings from the rest of Scandinavia and Europe. (And to anyone interested, I highly recommend reading Alfred's books, especially his history of the world, just to get some better insight into the times of the day. Zaereth (talk) 00:22, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi, oh, what wonderful discussions we could have ... Like, it is not an etymological fallacy to ask what a word (like "viking") might have meant to people at some other age ... or that using the English language necessarily leads to an Anglo-centric perspective on the content of history ... sigh ... but I'll try to stay on the narrow improve-the-article-path. That leaves only one brief point: I disagree with the OP that the article needs to change. T 84.208.86.134 (talk) 03:16, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

We should get back to the original topic. That long thread went far from the topic of the original sources. The goal of Wikipedia is to present what is written in reliable sources. Reliable sources listed above say point blank: "World's largest DNA sequencing of Viking skeletons reveals they weren't all Scandinavian" ; It is not in the scope of Wikipedia editors to interpret reliable sources based on how they see fit. The only job is to verify if the source is legitimate for the article and if it is, then how to best present the facts from the source. So what are we going to do about it?

Now cutting-edge DNA sequencing of more than 400 Viking skeletons from archaeological sites scattered across Europe and Greenland will rewrite the history books as it has shown:

• Skeletons from famous Viking burial sites in Scotland were actually local people who could have taken on Viking identities and were buried as Vikings.
• Many Vikings actually had brown hair not blonde hair. Viking identity was not limited to people with Scandinavian genetic ancestry.
• The study shows the genetic history of Scandinavia was influenced by foreign genes from Asia and Southern Europe before the Viking Age.
• Early Viking Age raiding parties were an activity for locals and included close family members. The genetic legacy in the UK has left the population with up to six per cent Viking DNA.

The six-year research project, published in Nature today (16 September 2020), debunks the modern image of Vikings and was led by Professor Eske Willerslev, a Fellow of St John's College, University of Cambridge, and director of The Lundbeck Foundation GeoGenetics Centre, University of Copenhagen.

St John's College, University of Cambridge, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200916113544.htm

Blomsterhagens (talk) 19:05, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Enough

Its clear that Dan Koehl has a long standing gripe with the English language usage & popular perception of the word "Viking". Its clear also that the vast majority of contributors here understand that also, but argue that this is en wiki, and NOT policies apply. So ENOUGH already. If Dan Koehl continues to beat a dead horse and suck all into a time sink, I'm gonna bring this to AN/I, per a hybrid of not here/spa. Ceoil (talk) 19:06, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Already done, he's gotten a two week block. I think it's worth discussing whether community sanctions are in order though.--Ermenrich (talk) 20:05, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know the history of the previous quarrels here. But the debate here seems to have been about viking ethnicity. There is legitimate research from both Uni. Cambridge and Uni. Copenhagen that backs up the claim that vikings were not singularly norse/scandinavian. The newest sources are very clear on the fact that we can't say all vikings were of Scandinavian origin. It is a culmination of a six-year research project, finished in 2020. As it stands, it's the most relevant research done on the topic so far and it would be erroneous to ignore it in this article.

Sources:

1. Science Magazine
2. Science Daily / University of Cambridge
3. Nature

Now cutting-edge DNA sequencing of more than 400 Viking skeletons from archaeological sites scattered across Europe and Greenland will rewrite the history books as it has shown:

• Skeletons from famous Viking burial sites in Scotland were actually local people who could have taken on Viking identities and were buried as Vikings.
• Many Vikings actually had brown hair not blonde hair. Viking identity was not limited to people with Scandinavian genetic ancestry.
• The study shows the genetic history of Scandinavia was influenced by foreign genes from Asia and Southern Europe before the Viking Age.
• Early Viking Age raiding parties were an activity for locals and included close family members. The genetic legacy in the UK has left the population with up to six per cent Viking DNA.

The six-year research project, published in Nature today (16 September 2020), debunks the modern image of Vikings and was led by Professor Eske Willerslev, a Fellow of St John's College, University of Cambridge, and director of The Lundbeck Foundation GeoGenetics Centre, University of Copenhagen.

St John's College, University of Cambridge, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200916113544.htm

Blomsterhagens (talk) 23:55, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Recent revert

Blomsterhagens has reverted my change of the lead from "Vikings is the modern name given to seafaring Scandinavians (from Norse pirates from southern Scandinavia (present-day Denmark, Norway and Sweden)" to "Vikings is the modern name given to seafaring Scandinavians (from present-day Denmark, Norway and Sweden)" with the comment that my change does not deal with the problem of ethnicity. There are several problems with the original version and my edit tried to deal with two of them, the pejorative description of Vikings as pirates and the ambiguous word Norse, which is better avoided as in popular usage it is often used as a synonym for Vikings but historians generally distinguish between Norse (Norwegian) and Danish Vikings. There are obviously further changes needed to deal with the ethnic issue but I do not think it is helpful to revert to a clumsier and more inaccurate version. I suggest reverting back to my version with the addition of the word "primarily" as Blomsterhagens suggested, and then adding that genetic analysis of culturally Viking burials has shown that some of them are of local people. Perhaps Blomsterhagens could make these further changes as the expert on this aspect. What do you think? Dudley Miles (talk) 08:19, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

@Dudley Miles: I support the solution you proposed here. I reverted the previous edit, because it removed the "citation needed" tag on the ethnicity question. I support your updated proposal for using "Scandinavian" instead of norse + adding the word "primarily" + adding some detail about the recent genetic analysis. Blomsterhagens (talk) 11:04, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation request

This paragraph(second to last paragraph in Etymology) should be made less ambiguous and more importantly, de-plagiarized.

The term ”Viking" that appeared in Northwestern Germanic sources in the Viking Age denoted pirates. According to some researchers, the term back then had no geographic or ethnic connotations that limited it to Scandinavia only. The term was instead used about anyone who to the Norse peoples appeared as a pirate. Therefore, the term had been used about Israelites on the Red Sea; Muslims encountering Scandinavians in the Mediterranean; Caucasian pirates encountering the famous Swedish Ingvar-Expedition, and Estonian pirates on the Baltic Sea. Thus the term "Viking" was supposedly never limited to a single ethnicity as such, but rather an activity.

1) De-plagiarize: This paragraph is pasted nearly entirely from the thesis of Lind's paper. It should be rephrased by the wiki editor as a summary, OR edited to show it is a quote.

2) The paragraph says 'according to some researchers', when only Lind is cited. To clear up the ambiguity, additional researchers should be added to fulfill the some researchers statement' OR changed to According to one modern researcher.... It may be difficult to find additional researchers making this conclusion, since it is pasted from Lind's 2020 paper and seems to be a new take (2020) in historical research on the vikings. So until more researchers are found in support, then it should probably read '-According to one modern researcher....-'

3) 'back then'. Back when? This ambiguity is not up to wikipedia standards. This is the type of problem brought on by the pasting of a paragraph rather than writing one. Perhaps the wiki editor can fill in the details to clear up the ambiguity. Who? the whole world? When is 'back then'?

4) The first sentence 'The term ”Viking" that appeared in Northwestern Germanic sources in the Viking Age denoted pirates.' This should be disambiguated by listing these 'northwestern Germanic sources' specifically 'The Indo-European language family containing English, German, Dutch, Frisian, the Scandinavian languages, and Gothic,' so that casual readers understand the descriptor is talking about many similar but not identical words in a variety of ancient languages that covered all the peoples of Northern Europe,...(a unique situation that makes it so difficult to pin down the etymology of the word 'viking' as used by Scandinavian raiders on a few of their runestones. Again, a problem that comes from pasting a paragraph rather than writing your own.

This is not my field and I have researched before commenting. Awolnetdiva (talk) 01:40, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

This is a strange one as it is difficult to find the original source, although it appears to be an English language paper in a Russian language book. I suggest deleting the paragraph and adding as a second sentence in the first paragraph of the section: "The historian John Lind states that in Anglo-Saxon and early medieval Scandinavian sources "Viking" meant "pirate", without specifying any particular ethnicity or geographic area.<ref>{{cite document|url=https://www.academia.edu/8906219|first=John |last=Lind|title=«Vikings» and the Viking Age |date=2011}}</ref> Dudley Miles (talk) 07:47, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Might this somehow be related to Dan Koehl? This seems quite similar to his usual modus operandi (add sources about viking only meaning pirate, often posting large quotations without attribution...). I'd suggest simply deleting the offending paragraph and citing the fact that Viking primarily meant pirate in Old Norse to a dictionary.--Ermenrich (talk) 12:53, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

A speculation about a connection to a particular editor is not a valid reason for deleting. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:07, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

But a copyright violation is.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:09, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Additionally, the information is redundant - it simply restates what is stated in the paragraph above, but at greater length.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:12, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Agree with deletion to primarily solve the copyright issue, (but it also solves the 'one author paper' POV which is disguised in the article as 'some researchers'.) Aside from the introductory phrase, the paragraph is pasted entirely from the single author's thesis statement (link in footnotes, only the cover pages are in Russian language, the paper can be read and summarized). Therefore it must be summarized, or deleted. If not deleted, I would suggest the following edit as a summary of Lind's paper. "According to researcher John Lind, while the etymology of the word 'viking' is not entirely certain, the Germanic languages of the time period used similar words to generically describe raiders and pirates of many origins, and seem to describe the activity of raiding rather than any specific regional identity of the raiders.[40] Awolnetdiva (talk) 19:56, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Intermixing with Slavs ... ?

Hi, I think this section is overinterpreting its sources, and I also wonder if the emphasis on Slavs, in this form, is due or not.
To take the last point first, European north/south intermixing had been going on since the Bronze Age (e.g. Denmark/Germany), and it should surprise no one that voyaging people intermixed with various locals, including Irish, Scots, English, French, Frisian, Frankish, Baltic, Saami, and also Slavs, of course. Why the Slavs in particular should be mentioned, is unclear to me.
My proposal for the section would be:

Intermixing

While inland Norse populations show a marked stability, people from the coastal communities intermixed with all of the peoples they encountered, perhaps with the exception of North American "skrælings". For example, some authors (one article?) describe Slavic and Viking tribes as "closely linked, fighting one another, intermixing and trading".[75][76][77] In the Middle Ages, ware was transferred from many other areas to Scandinavia, and sites in Denmark like the island of Langeland could be considered "a melting pot of Slavic and Scandinavian elements".[75]

A 10th-century grave of a warrior-woman in Denmark was long thought to belong to a Viking. However, analyses of the burial style and grave goods suggest links to present-day Poland.[75] The sagas frequently mention journeys to and alliances made in Gardarike. The first king of the Swedes, Eric, was married to Gunhild, of the Polish House of Piast.[79] Likewise, his son, Olof, fell in love with Edla, a Slavic woman, and took her as his frilla (concubine).[80] She bore him a son and a daughter: Emund the Old, King of Sweden, and Astrid, Queen of Norway. Cnut the Great, King of Denmark, England and Norway, was the son of a daughter of Mieszko I of Poland,[81] possibly the former Polish queen of Sweden, wife of Eric."

Here, the Slav/Viking connection serves as an illustration of a wider general phenomenon. This version is also more true to the sources. A number of Slavic royalty have been snipped, since they enter history centuries after what generally is termed the Viking Age." T 84.208.86.134 (talk) 12:24, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi, btw, https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/09/viking-was-job-description-not-matter-heredity-massive-ancient-dna-study-shows is the source for "While inland Norse populations show a marked stability ...." : "To the team’s surprise, there was little evidence of genetic mixture within Scandinavia itself. Although a few coastal settlements and island trading hubs were hot spots of genetic diversity, Scandinavian populations farther inland stayed genetically stable—and separate—for centuries. “We can separate a Norwegian person from a Swedish person from a Danish person,” Sindbæk says." T 84.208.86.134 (talk) 08:57, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

No responses? T 46.212.185.190 (talk) 16:35, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2021

Grammar error on "Expert sailors on their characteristic longships"it should be aboard their characteristic longships Vikings established settlements 47.226.47.145 (talk) 15:08, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan (talk) 18:23, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

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Sugestion

I propose, at the end of the following text:

The Slavs and the Byzantines also called them Varangians (Russian: варяги, from Old Norse Væringjar 'sworn men', from vàr- "confidence, vow of fealty", related to Old English wær "agreement, treaty, promise", Old High German wara "faithfulness" [55]

To be added:

and Slavic, (both old and present days') vera (vyera, vyara) "faith, belief, credit".

212.200.247.101 (talk) 22:51, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 March 2022

At the end of the following text:

The Slavs and the Byzantines also called them Varangians (Russian: варяги, from Old Norse Væringjar 'sworn men', from vàr- "confidence, vow of fealty", related to Old English wær "agreement, treaty, promise", Old High German wara "faithfulness" [55]

I propose to be added:

, promise", Old High German wara "faithfulness" and Slavic, (both old and present days') vera (vyera, vyara) "faith, belief, credit". 212.200.247.101 (talk) 22:39, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.

Also, please don't repeat the same request just to get attention of others. NickyLam12 (My talk page) 07:47, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 July 2022

Change :The character is featured in the 2011 Marvel Studios film Thor and its sequels Thor: The Dark World and Thor: Ragnarok. To: The character is featured in the 2011 Marvel Studios film Thor and its sequels Thor: The Dark World, Thor: Ragnarok and Thor: Love and Thunder. Zacupquark (talk) 16:52, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

 Partly done: I just removed all the names of the sequels as excessive detail. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:11, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Assimilation into Christendom

In this section appears the following line,

"The medieval Church held that Christians should not own fellow Christians as slaves, so chattel slavery diminished as a practice throughout northern Europe."

This line is unsourced and should be reworded to read "slavery" until sourcing is available. Chattel slavery is the buying, selling and breeding of slaves like livestock, something that emerged during the Age of Discovery when Europeans began enslaving Africans. I have never heard of chattel slavery being practiced in northern Europe during the Viking Age. Sources?? Jonathan f1 (talk) 02:24, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't know where you get that notion, but chattel slavery goes back to the time of Moses at least. It didn't become business on an industrial scale until the 1600s--1700s, but it most certainly was practiced by the Vikings, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc... Just before the Viking Age was the fall of the Roman Empire and the great migration period. The slave trade had primarily been a barter system for much of history, as was most of the economic structures. Money existed, but people didn't trust it. It wasn't until the Roman Empire that a stable monetary system developed, and a really stable economy, and thus slaves were really bought and sold for money. But all Rome did was import wealth. What went into Rome stayed in Rome. The fall of Rome came with the collapse of that monetary system, and all of Europe fell into disarray. Thats where we get into the Viking Age, and the time of Feudalism. Aka: the Manorial Age. This was a time when people lost all trust in money and big government. Life became communal and was all centered around the country manor. Each manor tried to be as self-sufficient as possible, growing their own food or even making their own weapons and tools. Most slaves at this time were serfs, which is basically the indentured servant variety. But there was still a slave trade going on, especially among the pagans, but for the next 900 years money practically fell into disuse. Trade still occurred, though. Zaereth (talk) 02:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

The Domesday Book records that 10% of the English population were slaves. This rose to 25% in Cornwall. The main source of slaves was those caught during warfare. After William the Conqueror Normans decided that giving a slave a piece of land and the right to own a cow, meant that the slaves could feed themselves. They became less of a burden on the Norman lord. As such the slaves became serfs and were part of the feudal system. There are numerous references to slaves in the medieval literature. The Vikings would transport surplus captives to sell at the Rouen slave market. Malcolm III of Scotland was well know for his forays into northern England and capture people to work as slaves north of the border. Look at Normans and slavery. or Slave raiding and slave trading in early England for more info.Wilfridselsey (talk) 15:43, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

It is quite likely that the true Vikings were Slavs

Since almost all Viking bone finds have halpogroup R1a and not typical for Germanic tribes Halpogroup I. History needs maybe to be rewritten. Slavs also have predominantly similar genetics. Slavs were the true Vikings. The new DNA tests show that. While the Germanic population has Halpogroup I, the Vikings who conquered England or Iceland have Slavic Halpogroup R1a, predominantly Z284, M458 and M548 (Interestingly, there are a particularly large number of people in the area of ​​present-day Poland and bone finds can also be found in old graves in Poland before about 2000 BC.). Genetics don't lie, genetics can't be invented or told. Strangely enough, to this day most still refer to narratives that were created in the racist and national times of the 19th century. 95.118.22.179 (talk) 01:39, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 01:56, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

(Moved some header into the first paragraph to reduce header length and improve readbility)

The journal article you have linked to doi:10.13189/sa.2021.090202 does not mention "Viking" "Scandinavia(n)" or "Nordic". How can it possibly back up your assertions here? The paper's topic isn't even Vikings. It is about Poles, and should not be considered an authority on a tangential subject, even if it was mentioned (which it isn't). If you are using the content of the paper to make a claim that is not explicitly made in the paper, then that is original research, which is not allowed. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 02:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

This is a nonsense claim. It mixes genetics and ethnic groups and it gets the genetics wrong. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 18:28, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Nah, how about we present history as it actually was instead of trying to rewrite it based on debunked fringe theories promoted by Slavic nationalists. TylerBurden (talk) 10:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

The standalone "Norsemen" article

Since I assume more people are watching this article: I've started a discussion of the fact that the standalone article Norsemen is basically superfluous and in fact just duplicates this article at a much smaller scale at Talk:Norsemen#Merge to Vikings?.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:05, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Norse or Norsemen – The name used for the people living in Scandinavia during the Viking Age. It literally means ‘man from the north’.

Viking – Norse seafarers who during the Viking Age left their Scandinavian homelands (Sweden, Denmark and Norway) to raid, trade and colonize. The meaning behind the term is debated, but we tend to consider Anatoly Liberman's thesis the most logical one. In it he argues that most likely means a person who takes rowing shifts on a boat, based on that the noun "Vica" that means the very same thing. From our linguistic perspective, it makes perfect sense. Moxy- 04:25, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

?—Ermenrich (talk) 12:17, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, the Norsemen article should perhaps be dedicated to the ones who stayed home. Or, the wider picture of this society, with its men, women and children. Material culture. Religion. Language. kings and armies, farmers and fishermen, and other branches of industry, like going abroad to get rich. T 84.208.65.62 (talk) 01:29, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Vikings as rowers

Hi, re the aforementioned Anatoly Liberman: that the etymology of "viking" refers to "rowers (of shifts)" is a theory presented by Eldar Heide (Heide, E. (2005). «Víking-'rower shifting'?» Arkiv för nordisk filologi, 120, 41-54.), building on an article by Bertil Daggfeldt ("https://www.abc.se/~m10354/publ/vik-rodd.htm" from, IIRC, 1983). In a 2009 article, Liberman _summarizes_ the research status at the time, but doesn't give any independent theories of his own. T 84.208.65.62 (talk) 02:25, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I think there is a lot of etymological fallacy tossed around when people talk about the word "viking". There is no evidence the word was ever used in Old English, except one obscure reference to the word "wic", meaning "camp" or "dwelling place". This was more of a suffix than anything else, and many towns in England still end with "wic" or "wich", such as Sandwich, Middlewich, Northwich, etc... It also had a tendency to refer to a gathering place or coven, hence the term wicca (witch). It's highly unlikely this word was ever applied to the Vikings back then. The English term back in the Viking Age was "Nordsmen" (Norsemen, which literally translates as "men from the north") or Danes. The term Viking didn't enter English until the 1800s when it was used in popular German operas. The thing this term describes, as it is used in English today, is still very much the Nordsmen that King Alfred wrote so much about back in the day. Zaereth (talk) 23:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Dirham

There is an article about these coins so please link to it. Thanks. --2003:F5:FF0C:DD00:55EF:AFF3:526D:7FC1 (talk) 01:37, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Where should we link it? Zaereth (talk) 01:41, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Excuse me? As far as I know every browser offers the possibility to search on whatever page you’re on. ‘Arabian silver coins, called dirhams’ is what you should look for, in the section on other names for the Vikings. It should be obvious that the last word within the quote should link to the article about the coin. Besides, one paragraph later we read that ‘the Muslim chroniclers of al-Andalus referred to the Vikings as Magians’ and as the latter term isn’t exactly everyday speech (and not identical with magicians in any modern sense of the word) it should link to Magi. --2003:F5:FF0C:DD00:2490:FD5A:7F6D:40BF (talk) 12:34, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are saying. As far as I know, a browser is an animal such as a moose or a giraffe, which is not a grazer. If you want me to link this term to the article, then you'll need to tell me, very specifically, where in the article it should be linked. If the term is somewhere in the article, then it should be easy enough for you to find. If it's not, then we'd have to add a sentence or a paragraph about the coins, but we can't do that just anywhere. It would need to fit in the context. It's your idea, so what's your plan? Zaereth (talk) 17:41, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Very funny. And yes, that was sarcasm. --2003:F5:FF1C:E900:BC53:B0D7:9E3:657E (talk) 14:43, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't know what's funny, because I'm being very serious. I'd help if I had some clue what it is you want, but I can't read your mind. Zaereth (talk) 17:16, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Inconsistency

We have,

"and L'Anse aux Meadows, a short-lived settlement in Newfoundland, circa 1000. The Greenland settlement was established around 980, during the Medieval Warm Period, and its demise by the mid-15th century may have been partly due to climate change."

980 to c1450, 450 years, is not "short-lived". And if it was founded in 980, why do we say circa 1000? .     Jim . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 22:09, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree that is confusingly worded, but it's discussing two separate places: L'Anse aux Meadows is located in modern-day Newfoundland, and its exact origin date is uncertain, hence "circa 1000." The next sentence refers to the unnamed Greenland settlement, which is distinct from L'Anse aux Meadows. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:13, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Science instead of Donald Duck history dating back to 1799

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This article reflects Sharon Turners hopelessly unscientific view on vikings from 1799, and should be replaced with modern, scientific point of view, to make the article NPOV, and not just repeating myths like a parrot.

The term ”Viking” appears in Anglo-Saxon or Norse sources in the so-called Viking Age. Here it simply denotes pirates, no more, no less. It had no geographic or ethnic connotations that linked it to Scandinavia or Scandinavians. By contrast, in these sources we find it used anywhere about anyone who to an Anglo-Saxon or a Scandiniavian appeared as a pirate. Therefore we find it used about Israelites crossing the Red Sea; Muslims in Galleys* encountering Norwegian crusaders in the Mediterranean; Caucasian pirates encountering the famous Swedish Ingvar-Expedition, and Estonian and Baltic pirates attacking Scandinavians in the Baltic Sea. Thus the term was never used to denote Scandinavians as such. Therefore, if we wish to maintain Viking-Age studies on a scholarly level, we must stop acting as an appendix to the tourist industry by using the term Viking as if it was synonymous with Scandinavian and Scandinavians.

https://www.academia.edu/8906219/_Vikings_and_the_Viking_Age

Dan Koehl (talk) 11:28, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

So is your plan just to come back every few months to complain about the usage of the word Vikings in English?—Ermenrich (talk) 11:04, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

@Dan Koehl From my reading of what you have written so far you have made a general comment rather than suggesting specific changes that you would like to see on the page. Can you write up the change and then create a WP:RFC? This would allow editors to make a decision about what you think should be included in the page without needing a wider conversation. I would encourage you to be concise and restrict yourself to a single additional or changed paragraph so that it does not become overly complicated. Gusfriend (talk) 02:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

I reckon when people come to read this article they are expecting to learn about the Scandinavians/Norse of the viking age, not general pirates. Like it or not but in English usage the word ”viking” HAS become synonymous with Scandinavia and Scandinavians of the early middle ages, and this is the first time I have seen someone offended by it. Personally, no one has ever attempted to use ”viking” as some kind of ethnic slur towards me, and if they did it would probably be more likely to make me laugh than anger me. I think turning this article into anything else would confuse the vast majority of readers. TylerBurden (talk) 14:34, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an international project. Regardless which language section, all projects should reflect international usage of words, and reflect scientific interpretations, not opinions by individual people, who think all english men are experts on viking age, without ever reading a prime source, mentioning vikings. Wikipedia should not reflect what silly people in a bar THINK, it should reflect latest facts given by scolared experts. ( see above). Dan Koehl (talk) 11:28, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

You posted a link to an article about how the term Viking means “medieval Scandinavian of the Viking age” and how this usage goes back to Danish scholars, writing in Danish. That doesn’t really make your argument for you, does it? You’ve been making the same arguments for years. No one has ever been convinced. It’s unlikely anyone will. I’d suggest moving on.—Ermenrich (talk) 12:01, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

It's cited .. 8 times ... in Google scholar that I can find. here. This isn't a lot, and I'm not seeing how citing this is helping make your case. (the Donald Duck reference in the heading isn't helping either...) -- Ealdgyth (talk) 12:19, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

You are three times wrong in your answer; the article does NOT mention that he term Viking means “medieval Scandinavian of the Viking age”, contrary, it points out its a word which simply denotes pirates, no more, no less. 2. the article is in English, not in Danish. 3. Discussion on this page is NOT about me as a person, the subject is the word viking.Dan Koehl (talk) 18:49, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Is the academia pdf the same as this article? If so, semantic scholar shows... one citation. Again, not a paper that's going to persuade others. Ealdgyth (talk) 12:22, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, Dan Koehl has misrepresented the paper. He makes it look like it argues against using Viking in the common way, when in fact it traces the origins of the term (and stereotypes associated with it). In fact he makes the opposite argument of Dan Koehl in his conclusion: Nevertheless, faced with the all-conquering force of world-wide marketing, historians - even if they tried - will hardly prove able to turn back the clock to the period before the term viking began its second life. Therefore we are likely to be stuck with the Viking in the shape of a Scandinavian equipped with a horned helmet and, preferably, a wild growing beard. So maybe we should just join the tourist industry in using the Viking brand in order to secure a better sale of our works. Given his comments about horned helmets, I'm not sure that the author's grumpiness about the modern use of the term Viking doesn't represent some of the more jocular statements that one would expect in a conference paper turned into an article.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:36, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

You are three times wrong in your answer; the article does NOT mention that he term Viking means “medieval Scandinavian of the Viking age”, contrary, it points out its a word which simply denotes pirates, no more, no less. 2. the article is in English, not in Danish. 3. Discussion on this page is NOT about me as a person, the subject is the word viking.Dan Koehl (talk) 18:49, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

I've restored the comments that were deleted in this edit. Can you kindly be more careful in the future? Ealdgyth (talk) 19:23, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Three point rebuttal:

1. While its first life as part of an everyday-language ended in the medieval period, perhaps with the exception of Icelandic, its last life began in the years just before or after 1800, when it began to be used about Scandinavian warriors, marauders and pirates often with heroic connotations. From that fairly humble beginning it developed first slowly but soon with accelerating speed into a brand for everything Scandinavian - persons and things alike. In that sense the term soon invaded most European languages. (p. 201); E. Christiansen is one of few scholars who, as his title suggests, deliberately avoids to use «viking» as synonymous with Scandinavians. (p. 204, fn. 10); I began by saying that the word viking had had two lives in everyday languages. In its second, modern life viking has become used both as a noun and as an adjective. As a noun it began to be used about Scandinavians exclusively, first about limited groups, pirates and warriors, but eventually about Scandinavians in general and in the tourist industry not just about Viking-Age Scandinavians but also modern Scandinavians in general. (p. 206)
2. The first linkage of the term Viking to a historical period is often attributed to the Danish archaeologist Jens Jacob Asmussen Worsaae, who during visits to the British Isles and Normandy identified finds as Scandinavian. (p. 215); also Swedes: The transformation of Vikings from pirates pure and simple into first Scan-dinavian pirates and finally, today, Scandinavians in general was a process that only got under way around 1800. [...] Therefore when scholars from the second half of the nineteenth century (the Swede Anders Strinnholm a bit earlier) began to talk about the Vikings and the Viking Age, they understood this epoch as an age dominated by Scandinavian activity at home and especially abroad. (p. 214)
3. Not sure what you're talking about.

It seems to me that you either have not read the paper or have not understood it.--Ermenrich (talk) 20:15, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

The problem here, Dan, is that your entire argument is based on a logical fallacy called etymological fallacy. Viking used to mean pirate, but pirate meant something else back then as well. Whatever it used to mean has no bearing on what it means today. This is like going to the dog article to argue that dog isn't a real word. It's a made-up word from the Middle Ages originally referring to a single breed. Should we change the entire language because the German word (thus the original English word) is hund? By your logic, it shouldn't matter that everyone in English calls them dogs, because all languages should be the same? That's why your argument continuously fails to persuade anyone. It's simple etymological fallacy. Language changes constantly, and those changes are not determined by any one person, but by society as a whole. It changes in illogical and unpredictable ways. No dictionary or encyclopedia has ever been able to stop or control those changes. None ever will. It doesn't matter what the word used to mean. All that matters is what it means today, and that is what we have to work with. Even people on Swedish Wikipedia have told you the same thing. Zaereth (talk) 00:44, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

The first linkage of the term Viking to a historical period is in Exodus, where its used for the sons of Ruben in Israel. The second linkage of the term Viking to a historical period is when the term Viking is used for Alexander the greats father Philip II of Macedonia, where one of the first documented use of the word viking is made by Orosius, written in latin, and translated into old english. There is to read about Alexander the Great´s father, Philip II of Macedonia: , "Philippus vero post longam obsidionem, ut pecuniam quam obsidendo exhauserat, praedando repararet, piraticam adgressus est. translated into: ac he scipa gegaderade, and i vicingas wurdon". In this time the word pirate was not used in the English language, the latin "piraticam" was directly translated to vicingus in the oldest sources where the word was mentioned... After this it was used for Arabic Muslim pirates attacking the fleet of Sigurd Jorsalafarer, where none of the Scandinavian was called Vikings, only the Arabs. Viking was also mention in Ingvar Vittfarnes saga, when Swedish Ingvar made his expedition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Expedition. In the article about this expedition, the word Viking is NEVER used about the Scandinavians, while the saga Yngvars saga víðförla NEVER mention the Scandinavians as Vikings, but specifically mention the attacking pirates from Caucasus as Vikings.. You can see how the article Vikings POV based on Sharon Turners understanding of the word, gets completely confused, while even worse, the mentioned articles give information, which is not backed up by the prime sources, and spreads disinformation. If a prime source gives substantial information, that vikings were the attacking pirates from Caucasus, and not the Scandinavians, why on earth does Wikipedia provide people history falsification, calling the Scandinavians Vikings, when they were not, according to the source? Regarding your private opinions about the meaning of the word pirate, its clear that the Latin Pirate, was translated in different languages to Viking, until the word Viking was replaced by pirate during about 1400. The meaning is clear, Viking means pirate, nothing less, and nothing more, until 1400.

And here we reach the most delicate part of my debate; No ethnical people should be described with a pejorative term in Wikipedia, Germans should not be described as Nazis, etc. There is no reason what so ever to describe the ethnical people in Scandinavia during Viking time, with pejorative terms, like "pirates" and therefore Norse should be used. A brief analyze of the article Viking and Norse, makes it obvious that its a result of confused uneducated people, who didnt read prime sources, since the largest parts of text in article Viking, actually deals with Norse people, while Vikings was never a people, speaking Vikingish. Its furthermore pejorative to refer to kings of Sweden, a kingdom mentioned already 98 AD by Tacitus, as "Viking kings" especially since all Scandinavian countries during this time, had an organized coast defense AGAINST Vikings and other enemies. Sweden has a total of 3 persons mentioned as Vikings, on rune stones, which is really not much, considering that the country has thousands of rune stones.

The entire presentation of the "Viking time" doesnt give a relevant view on Scandinavians in medieval time, it focus on how the victims of attacks describe Scandinavians, while in the end, we have no real evidence, that the "Northmen" making the attacks, were really Scandinavians. Already Adam of Bremen, indicates that the Vikings he discuss, did not belong to the local population, and he is surprised that they paid tax to the Danish king.

All I ask, is that the article is NPOV. In order to reach this, at least some basic knowledge from prime sources should mention that the word has been misunderstood by Sharon Turner and onwords, and doesnt reflect scientific research by specialists of this period like John H Lind, who may be the one person, who researched prime sources most, including sources in Russia, where he spend years. On top of this, theres a false presentation in various Wikipedia articles, calling different people like Rus or Varjagians for Vikings, although the sources about those people NEVER mention they were Vikings. Not one Rus or Varjagian were ever mentioned in sources as being a viking.

Snorri Sturlusson gives a very clear approach on the word in his saga Egil Skallagrimsson: "Björn var farmaður mikill, var stundum í víking, en stundum í kaupferðum"; "Björn var hinn gervilegasti maður. (english: Björn was a great traveller; sometimes as viking, sometimes as tradesman".) Snorris very clear message is not compatible with the articles intr: "Vikings is the modern name given to seafaring people originally from Scandinavia (present-day Denmark, Norway, and Sweden) who from the late 8th to the late 11th centuries raided, pirated, traded, and settled throughout parts of Europe". Because a Viking was NOT a tradesman, he was a pirate.

Vikings, as any pirate, can never be used as a label for someone who is not Viking, like a Scandinavian who defend his land against viking raids, or a king who chases away Vikings from his land: Harald I of Norway At last, Harald was forced to make an expedition to the West, to clear the islands and the Scottish mainland of some Vikings who tried to hide there.. (the original text says in English translation:

King Harald heard that the Vikings, who were in the West sea in winter, plundered far and wide in the middle part of Norway; and therefore every summer he made an expedition to search the isles and out-skerries (1) on the coast. Wheresoever the vikings heard of him they all took to flight, and most of them out into the open ocean. At last the king grew weary of this work, and therefore one summer he sailed with his fleet right out into the West sea. First he came to Hjaltland (Shetland), and he slew all the vikings who could not save themselves by flight. Then King Harald sailed southwards, to the Orkney Islands, and cleared them all of Vikings. Thereafter he proceeded to the Sudreys (Hebrides), plundered there, and slew many Vikings who formerly had had men-at-arms under them.

-King Harald would never agree that he was a viking-king, he was, like probably 99% of Scandinavians were, fighting vikings. He would have put a sword in the stomach, on any person calling him a Viking king, when he was king of the kingdom of Norway, nothing else.

For natural reasons, the article is in acute need for a NPOV overseen, where not only confusing disinformation is provided, but also the view from scholared historicans, being specialists on the period.

Further, more true information about how and when the word was used, based on science, on prime sources.

A further investigation, looking into the redudance of articles Northmen and Vikings, will clearly show, that most in the article Viking doesnt belong there, it should be moved to Northmen, if that is the subject of the text.

It doesnt really matter how many people back up a false interpretation of a term. History is a scientific discipline, and should not reflect laymens opinions, it should reflects facts. An article should educate, not disinform and confuse.

And, no people should be called pejorative terms in Wikipedia. My ancestors should NOT be called pirates.

Dan Koehl (talk) 07:09, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, in order tp produce a NPOV article, with international and scientific approach, it is need that a minority of users stop "owning" the article, which is against the rules.

Dan Koehl (talk) 08:06, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

What makes you think this WP:WALLOFTEXT with the same nonsensical arguments as the last time you did this (and had to be blocked for disruptive editing), indeed the same nonsensical arguments you’ve used every time you’ve come here, will have a different result than before?—Ermenrich (talk) 12:00, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I want to refer to what the sources say, and that this is pretty absent in the article. Making it not NPOV. It is not nonsensical arguments, tp point out how an article is aggressively "owned" and how people who want to bring in more relevant material based on real sources, are harassed by other users, breaking the Wikipedia rules and the five pillars.

It would never be accepted to refer to Germans as "Nazis", Saxons as "Barbarians", or English or Americans as the "stupid mother f***ers". So why should Scandinavians have to put up with this pejorative habit of uneducated laymen? And why fill an article with crap and disinformation? Whats the benefit of this, instead of trying making the article NPOV? Dan Koehl (talk) 11:35, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

And you claim that I "had to be blocked for disruptive editing" when in fact, I was just adding sourced material (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norsemen&diff=prev&oldid=1034255470) from a Swedish Wikipedia article, which is still there. All I put in was sourced. But not in the "taste" of a minority of users. This aggressive Dan Koehl (talk) 11:40, 2 August 2022 (UTC) is destroying Wikipedia. Blocking should not be used against a user since 2002, who is adding relevant material (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norsemen&diff=prev&oldid=1034255470) to an article, backed up by sources.

My “claim”? That’s the reason you were blocked. The only person showing evidence of WP:OWN here is you: I don’t care if you’re Harald Bluetooth himself, you can’t come here and demand WP change it’s policies because you, alone of all Swedes, think Viking is pejorative. Add to that some very obvious WP:COI issues (beyond just the policy ones: deleting others comments, walls of texts, inability to indent properly…) and I think you’ll be blocked again if you keep up this silly attempt to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS.—Ermenrich (talk) 12:06, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

This what did when I was blocked, adding https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norsemen&diff=prev&oldid=1034255470 what you can still see and read on the Swedish version. No reason for a block. Adding sourced text material is not "disruptive editing". You claim I AM owner of the article, so how come, no text from me, is there? What is the logic of this claim? It is not "owning"to demand that an article is NPOV. Dan Koehl (talk) 12:18, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

[1]: 19:54, 18 July 2021 El C talk contribs blocked Dan Koehl talk contribs with an expiration time of 2 weeks (account creation blocked) (Disruptive editing: WP:TE, acute WP:BLUDGEON and WP:BATTLEGROUND). You first posted these exact same arguments in2004 (!), and despite never convincing anyone you've just repeated the same nonsense every few months or year or two since [2]. This is well beyond WP:ICANTHEARYOU.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:03, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, the topic and subject for discussion here is Vikings, its not a discussion about me and my perfectly correct edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norsemen&diff=prev&oldid=1034255470. Dan Koehl (talk) 14:38, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

You're right that discussion should not be about you (ed.). For those interested, here's a link to an ANI discussion. 18 years is enough.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

No, actually, he's not right. The problem here is he's conflating two entirely different things This discussion is not about Vikings at all, it's about the word "Viking". Encyclopedias are not about words. Encyclopedias are about things. Dictionaries are about words. They study the etymology, morphology, and current usage in very intensive detail. We have to use the words as the dictionaries define them, because they are the reliable sources on their proper usage. Dictionaries follow the changing language and keep up to date definitions, and if you think writing an encyclopedia is hard... Native speakers already know what the word means. For us, it's idiomatic. But non-native speakers will rely on the dictionaries to define the words for them, and we have to use the words correctly --as they are understood today.

While the etymology of the words are interesting, especially to me, since I'm fascinated by etymology and language morphology, and the history of the English language in particular, it is really irrelevant in an encyclopedia article. It's interesting to know where the word "weld" or "moose" or "bird" came from, for example, but it's not really about the thing, now is it? The etymology section in this article is extremely bloated, in my opinion. We're not a dictionary. Zaereth (talk) 18:22, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I meant he's right that the discussion is not about him. I've clarified accordingly. I actually agree with you entirely Zaereth. It's just that talking to Dan Koehl about this is a bit like talking to a brick wall.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:35, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. In most cases I agree we should stick to the topic and mot discuss he editor, but in this case the topic has been rehashed to death. There are almost an infinite number of ways to say the same thing, and I think we've covered them all twice. Sometimes, you have to look at the logic and motives of the editor, and in this case there seems to be a deep motivation to right some great wrong, or at least a perceived wrong, although I have never understood why that perception exists. I'm proud to be a descendent of the Vikings, and have never known the word to have negative connotations in modern English. Or Norwegian or Swedish, for that matter. (There seem to be plenty of places over there that capitalize on the term for tourism purposes.) There are people, however, who I've encountered who think language should be logical or follow some "true" meaning of words. They'll argue that tidal waves have nothing to do with the tide (except the tide appears to rush out just before the wave hits), or that cars should drive in driveways and park on parkways rather than the other way around. Something like that seems to be more the case here, but it's not our place to prescribe the language like that, and a lot of people seem to have trouble understanding that. Words are merely symbols, and these very often have no logical connection to the things they represent. Zaereth (talk) 19:59, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Instead of discussing me, please comment on exactly which of the sources I mentioned above, substantial historical material backed up by sources, which is not true?

Because by avoiding focus on the subject, and instead trying to make me look like a bad person, its pretty transparent that you dont want to have a NPOV article, which gives different views about the topic. The view Id like to see mentioned, is the scientific historical view, backed up by prime sources.

Because Im not discussion words, Im discussing people. The Norse people, which already have an article, and the activity of vikings, which was not a people, it was an activity, being pirate from anywhere, and shouldnt be mixed up with an ethnical group of people. Why is not the sons of Ruben in Israel, Alex father Philip II of Macedonia mentioned in the article? Why is there no citation from Adam of Bremen? Why is there no citation regarding the Caucasian pirates, referred to as vikings, who attacked Ingvar Vittfarne? Why is there no citation about the Arabic muslim pirates, referred to in the historical sources as vikings, whoattacked Sigurd Jorsalafarer in Spain? And why, instead of citing historical sources is there alot of text material about people, who were NEVER referred to as vikings in the sources? Why does anyone want to own this article, and what would be wrong with at least some attempts to make it NPOV, and educate readers about what the sources actually say, and not what Turner belived in 1799? Dan Koehl (talk) 11:26, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

When I started here in 2002, I would never have believed that one day users would try to ban another user, becasue he argues to add also a scientific view on a subject, and not just peoples beliefs. Such actions will never produce a better Wikipedia. Dan Koehl (talk) 11:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Can you create a RfC for the change that you would like to be made to the page? Without a specific proposal it is hard to see what you want changed. Gusfriend (talk) 11:41, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Good idea, and thank you, Ill follow your suggestion some days. Dan Koehl (talk) 11:53, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Gusfriend, he either wants the article to not use Viking to mean medieval Scandinavian or else move it’s content to Norsemen, it’s not entirely clear and it never has been, not in the 18 years he’s been starting this same discussion over and over again. As Zaereth says, this article is not about the word Viking. We aren’t a dictionary. I urge everyone to comment on the ANI thread- this behavior has got to stop.—Ermenrich (talk) 12:09, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Your comment about not being clear what change they would like to see is an excellent argument for a RfC where they explicitly present the changes that they would like to see. If there are sufficient impacts on multiple articles then the Village Pump at WP:PROPOSE is where to take it from there. Gusfriend (talk) 09:45, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Instead of telling people what I want and not, please read above where I have made pretty clear comments, including making the article NPOV. And Im not very interested in the word, and not interested in a dictionary, or what people believe the word viking means, Im interested in that the article refer to prime historical sources, and not myths or misunderstanding dating back to 1799. Let the article refer to what the experts says, not what laymen think. An article about vikings can not entirely deal with Norse people, who regarded vikings as their enemies, and had an organized defense against them. An article should not entirely reflect laymens misinterpretations, but also what experts says, and what the prime sources says. An article should be educational, not contain disinformation.And every article should be NPOV.Dan Koehl (talk) 14:03, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - I've read through this discussion and I'm honestly not sure what is being proposed, but I did want to comment on User:Dan Koehl's comment above ("Wikipedia is an international project. Regardless which language section, all projects should reflect international usage of words...") In the English Wikipedia, we use the words as described by English-language sources. This is reflected in Wikipedia policy such as Wikipedia:Article titles. In Spanish the word America refers to the Americas, but that's irrelevant to the English Wikipedia, which is why America redirects to United States because in English, America overwhelmingly refers to the United States. This is not a comment on the merits of what Viking means in English and which scholar said whatever, only pointing out that the English language meaning of a word carries a particular weight on the English language Wikipedia, and if a different meaning is used in another language, that does not detract from or invalidate the English language meaning. - Aoidh (talk) 22:21, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

But it looks like you've been told this before. - Aoidh (talk) 22:25, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

The word Viking was mentioned in English language sources first time 1807, second time 1827, and had a larger spreading during Romantic nationalism after 1840. 900 years later than the start of Viking period. This means it was not used in historical prime sources at all. So using on English language sources to describe a historical term, is not possible in this case. And in any case, it becomes an intellectual challenge, to describe how Harald Hairfair expelled vikings from Norwegian and Cottisg territory, and how all Scandinavian countries had an organised defense against vikings, if you at the same time stubbornly view Harald, king of Norway, as a viking. With this use, the term doesnt make sense. The large peopblem is, that people who want to callScandinavians, didnt spend one second reading prime sources. They are only repeating what other laymen said, during the last 50 years, which is a verly short period. And there was never a congregation of english historians where they took a consensus decision, that scandinavians should be called vikings. All this is errors, made by people who were wrong. To keep an article on Wikipedia and have it domitaed by errors, and false interpretations doesnt make sense. And where should people then look for facts and true facts about true vikings? Do we need an article True Vikings? And why should 2 different articles vikings and Northmen, have the same content? Dan Koehl (talk) 23:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Harald fought pirates or Viking raiders. That does not make it any harder for us to say he was “a Viking” or had a “Viking culture.” This is not a difficult concept to wrap your head around. As to why Northmen also exists (which does not repeat the content here), probably it should be merged to this article.—Ermenrich (talk) 00:31, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say that if you're going to claim something, you should provide sources for that claim, especially if you're going to then use those unsourced claims to make logical conclusions (WP:OR). Your claim about English usage is unsourced, your claim that "the people...didnt spend one second reading prime sources" is an extremely extraordinary claim that I have no doubt is your personal opinion, and cannot be substantiated. "All this is errors, made by people who were wrong." provide a source for this statement, or it can and should be safely discarded as nothing more than your own opinion. You do not get to decide that because you dislike the conclusions reached, that the persons making the conclusions do not count. - Aoidh (talk) 01:02, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Random lurker here, but what I find really bemusing is how the OP believes the usage of the term "Viking" is discriminatory against people of Scandinavian descent... hence the frankly obscene analogy with Nazism. The discourse around the Vikings of old isn't being used as some rallying point for people today to gather around to justify being mean to people of Scandinavian heritage. After seeing half of my family members being referred to as disease-spreading parasites due to their ethnic background I have to balk, sorry. Also, OP's comments would be better suited to the histography and popular usage of the term "Viking". --SinoDevonian (talk) 14:36, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The term may have once been pejorative, but it has gone through processes of semantic change and broadening of the meaning. For example, the word "hound" (hund) originally referred to the entire species of canines, but was narrowed to refer to a specific breed, while "dog" originally referred to a specific breed but was broadened to include the entire species. The word "Viking" has also gone through semanic amelioration (or elevation). For example, the word "dude" was originally used as an insult referring to one's dress or clothing; their "duds". It was something similar to calling someone a "dandy". Today, it's been elevated to a greeting of friendship. "Silly", on the other hand, meant "happy" back in the Middle Ages, but today means foolish. The language is what it is, and there's no going back. Zaereth (talk) 21:50, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I never knew people could take up half a wikipedia talk page arguing about the usage of a word Allaoii ^talk 19:57, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

If you think this is bad, just check the archives. This has been going on for years. And not just on English Wikipedia, but Swedish, Norse, German, and possibly several others. There has been a one-man crusade to prove that we've all been using the word wrong all our lives. Zaereth (talk) 21:16, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

cant wait to see how long it takes before he gets banned Allaoii ^talk 21:23, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

You're slightly late there; he was topic-banned from Vikings back in August. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:30, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

How can you get banned from a topic? Allaoii ^talk 22:35, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

How? Just read the above section, and all the related discussions in the archive. That should give a pretty good blueprint. It's called WP:Tendentious editing. People get topic banned quite often. It's sometimes a better alternative to a full-out ban, because they may still be able to edit other topics without getting so passionate about them. I actually like Dan. He's a very smart cookie, but this is just one topic where he has a WP:Right great wrongs point to prove, and no one is buying it. I don't think we need to discuss it anymore, because we don't want to come off as WP:Gravedancing. Zaereth (talk) 23:02, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

no i mean how does the topic ban stop the user Allaoii ^talk 23:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

If one violates a topic ban they risk getting a full ban from the site. Zaereth (talk) 23:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

By the way, when it comes to silly disputes, this one doesn't even come close to making the cut for WP:Lamest edit wars. See the section on The Beatles, which made national news. Zaereth (talk) 02:00, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

ok now i want to know the requirements for getting into WP:Lamest edit wars Allaoii ^talk 23:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

what are the requirements for getting into WP:Lamest edit wars Allaoii ^talk 16:52, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

You can read the page where it describes what is needed; being somewhat tongue in cheek, I think it is fair to say that lameness is in the eye of the beholder. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 16:55, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I just read through this whole thing and was frankly very confused about his actual complaint throughout most of it. I assumed the only issue one would have with the actual word Viking was that in the Norse language during the middle ages it was actually a verb rather than a noun. But his idea that its simply offensive is one of the strangest things I've ever seen on a Wikipedia talk page. DrOfProfessor (talk) 05:22, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

It's actually more common than one would think. There are a certain people out there who are, what I'd call, "language purists". Often, they are very intelligent people, but for whatever reason they need it to make literal sense rather than anything figurative. The problem for them is: all languages are extremely figurative and it almost never makes literal sense, and if there once was some logical reason a word's meaning changed, that reason only made sense to the people who lived in a certain time or place. It's like, why do people say "What's the skinny?" when they want to know what is going on? That's recent enough slang that we can trace it back to the origins in the 1960s, where it was a funky way of saying "What's the scene?" by mispronouncing the word "scene" as "skinny". But without that firsthand knowledge of people who were on the scene at the time, there is no way anyone would be able to logically deduce that in a thousand years.

People come here all the time trying to correct the language. They come to the alloy steel article and claim that the term is wrong because steel itself is an alloy. Same at the alloy wheel article. Little does it dawn on them that steel wasn't considered an alloy by scientists until somewhere around the 1930s or '40s, and not by the general population until the '60s or '70s, long after these words were in use. I'll give it to the meteorologists, because they did eventually succeed in changing the word "tidal wave" into some Japanese word I can never remember how to spell, because they felt a figurative English word was worse than a foreign word with no literal meaning in English, but they did this without the use of Wikipedia. Some personality types, I think, just cannot deal with the figurativeness of language and have this need to make it work in a very literal sense --often way too literal-- but Wikipedia is not a place to try to "fix" the language. Zaereth (talk) 21:02, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.