Talk:Vietnamese clothing

Identify secondary sources

To improve this article, I think some high-quality secondary sources are needed which discuss the topic of Vietnamese clothing (past and present) in a neutral, broad, informative way. If you're aware of such a source, post it here (or better yet use it to expand the article). Jake-low (talk) 15:57, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Usage of Việt phục

The common term for traditional clothing in Vietnam (trạng phục Việt Nam; trạng phục truyền thống Việt Nam) should be used instead of Việt phục which is a neologism. It is uncommonly used and is typically only used in traditional clothing cỉcles that are mirroring the Hanfu movement.

Việt phục 越服 was never used in historically texts anyway. Texts show that Vietnamese clothes were referred to as "đồ Ta" or "đồ An Nam" in the past. Lachy70 (talk) 00:58, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Languages always change over time, so there will be many words invented to match the times, if you pay attention to updating news online, you won't find it difficult to come across this phrase on websites electronic media Otomo Ajah (talk) 07:25, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The term Việt phục [1][2][3][4][5][6] is probably not new after the Hanfu movement, it has been around since the time of the South Vietnam Otomo Ajah (talk) 07:49, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Show me which modern books or dictionaries use Việt phục, South Vietnam in the past, tend to use many Sino-Vietnamese terms rather than native equivalents. They call airports (sân bay), phi trường, or the White House (Nhà Trắng) in the US as Toà Bạch Ốc.

Many people generally wouldn't use Việt phục to refer to Vietnamese clothing. Even articles about other clothing such as Korean clothing is referred to as "trang phục Hanbok" rather than "Hàn phục". Or Japanese clothing which is referred to as "trang phục Nhật Bản" rather than "Hoà phục".

Việt phục is definitely influenced by the Hanfu movement since there wasn't any Việt phục movement before the Hanfu movement started.

Vietnamese clothing should be translated as y phục truyền thống Việt Nam or as trạng phục truyền thống Việt Nam. Lachy70 (talk) 08:42, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, then why do you say that there are no historical texts that use the term Việt phục, until I quote from historical texts that use this term, you ask me to find more citations from other citations modern dictionary? Currently, some people do not use Việt phục does not mean that no one uses it, articles about other costumes such as Korean clothing, Japanese clothing are often called directly Hanbok, not "Trang phục Hanbok", and Kimono but not "Trang phục Nhật Bản". In summary, Việt phục has been used since before the Hanfu movement but has been forgotten, and thanks to this Hanfu movement, young people have started to use the term Việt phục again, the language is always changing with the times. Please don't be too conservative. And please, "trang phục" not "trạng phục" Otomo Ajah (talk) 09:13, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What I meant by historical texts was texts in Hán Nôm. Việt phục isn't attested in any historical texts. Only found in certain situations, and is still uncommon even back then in the books you linked me. But it is important to note that we are talking about modern day usage and the common term for it. Not everyone uses Việt phục to mean Vietnamese clothing, but if we use trang phục Việt Nam, everyone would understand.

"Korean clothing, Japanese clothing are often called directly Hanbok, not "Trang phục Hanbok", and Kimono but not "Trang phục Nhật Bản"."

They are also called Hanbok and Kimono, but trang phục Hàn Quốc/Hanbok and trang phục Nhật Bản also see widespread usage.

"trang phục" not "trạng phục"

Yes, my bad. Thank you for correcting me. Lachy70 (talk) 09:23, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

? So the term "Trang phục truyền thống Việt Nam" is present in the Hán-Nôm texts? They are also just terms born later to fit the times. It is true that not all people use Việt phục to refer to Vietnamese clothing but that does not mean that using Việt phục they will not understand, "They are also called Hanbok and Kimono, but Trang phục Hàn Quốc/Hanbok Trang phục Nhật Bản also see widespread usage" , in short, call as belonging to the departmentlike each person personally, some people like to call it Hanbok, Kimono; some people like to call it Trang phục Hàn Quốc, Trang phục Nhật Bản; they are interchangeable in modern Vietnamese, like some people like to call it Việt phục and some people like to call it Trang phục Việt Nam, I still don't understand why you still want to remove the term Việt phục from all Wikipedia articles even though the term is quite popular nowadays? Otomo Ajah (talk) 10:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Trang phục truyền thống Việt Nam" is a translation for the article title "Vietnamese clothing". Việt phục itself, is a neologism. I was just saying that it is a recently coined word since it cannot be found in Hán Nôm texts. So historically it was never used in the past (i.e. during when chữ Hán Nôm was used). I am not saying the same about Trang phục truyền thống Việt Nam as it is a modern term.

"I still don't understand why you still want to remove the term Việt phục from all Wikipedia articles even though the term is quite popular nowadays?"

I am not trying to remove it from Wikipedia, the article is called Vietnamese clothing so all links should be called Vietnamese clothing. As Việt phục would cause disambiguity among non-native speakers. If you do want to use a Vietnamese name for it, you can use a common term, but Việt phục is an uncommon term, although in recent years, it has gained popularity in usage. Lachy70 (talk) 10:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It has already caused disambiguity among Vietnamese as seen in the Vietnamese Wikipedia since multiple people have changed "Việt phục" back to "Trang phục cổ Việt Nam" and "Trang phục Việt Nam". Lachy70 (talk) 10:26, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Those people they don't feel vague because of this term, if they understand that Hán phục means Han clothing instead of having to write it as Trang phục Hán, there is no reason for them not to understand Việt phục means Vietnamese clothing. Those people simply find the term too Chinese and start looking for excuses to get rid of it Otomo Ajah (talk) 12:31, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"I am not trying to remove it from Wikipedia" So why did you delete this term right at the article Vietnamese clothing? "the article is called Vietnamese clothing so all links should be called Vietnamese clothing" I think it depends on the context that we use it appropriately, in articles related to costumes, other Asian countries are use their own terms to refer to traditional attiretheir system, I don't think there's any reason not to follow them. I don't think it will cause ambiguity among non-native speakers, as all links point to Vietnamese clothing Otomo Ajah (talk) 11:39, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even with the Vietnamese article for Vietnamese clothing was once called "Trang phục cổ Việt Nam" until you changed it to "Việt phục" and then asked "Việt phục thì có gì mà khó hiểu?". Lachy70 (talk) 09:27, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]