Talk:Victory Party (Turkey)

The removal of sourced content

Recently, I have observed that well-sourced information on the position of the party has repeatedly been removed without any relevant justification. An editor postulated, incorrectly, that English and non-Turkish sources are not appropriate for the matter of this article, and called the Turkish sources "biased", without providing any basis for these claims and assumptions, and removed said content from the article. Please be reminded that Wikipedia cannot be used as a platform for political discussion or propaganda. A multitude of sources agree that the party is a far-right party, and these sources have been provided. Simple claims of "bias" and "unreliablity" for relatively large publications and newspapers such as those provided are not enough to discredit them. Please refer to WP:RS and WP:V, and post your concerns on the talk page instead of removing content from the article without providing necessary justification, which can be considered vandalism. Egeyam (talk) 11:13, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

DailySabah is a pro-government daily, so it is unreliable as a news source describing an opposition party. As written in the wikipedia article for Daily Sabah: "Daily Sabah has been described as using transparent and ill-formed, Turkish-style propaganda to advance the AKP government's version of events".

The source from KARAR is a column piece and as such it is not a news source. Also it is a statement of opinion, not a fact.

Those sources should be removed at the very least. Homorebelus (talk) 19:56, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I removed the disputable sources I listed above. Habererk also is not a reliable source but I have no sources to prove my claim at this moment. That being said the citation given for Victory Party's Pan-Turkism affiliation makes no mention of the Victory Party's supposed affiliation with Pan-Turkism.

The article translates as:

The leader of the Victory Party, Ümit Özdağ shared! Pan-Turkists, Idealists(Turkish political term usually used to describe nationalists), and Kemalists made their mark in the survey!

The leader of the Victory Party Ümit Özdağ, made a remarkable post on Facebook. In his post, Ümit Özdağ used these words:

“According to a research that measured the ideological leanings of the Turkish youth, 20% of the youth identifed as Kemalist:

18 percent apolitical, 10,9 percent nationalist, 9 percent Pan-Turkist.”

(Url: https://www.habererk.com/politika/zafer-partisi-lideri-umit-ozdag-paylasti-ankete-turkculer-ulkuculer-h154719.html)

Removing the citation as well as the claim. Feel free to add Pan-Turkism to the list if you find better sources.

In fact almost all of the sources in this article are from obscure tabloids and unreliable news sites. For example the only citation Ulusalcılık is an opinion piece from a website called Sebestiyet which I would argue wouldn't even classify to be a news website. I'll be visiting this page further and making edits in the future. Homorebelus (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Right-wing populism is another thing I removed. The only citation for that is their party program which is 254 pages long. I'm pretty sure they don't identify themselves as "right-wing populists" in their own part program but feel free to add it back if you can give a page number to specify where in their party program they call themselves that. Homorebelus (talk) 20:53, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Far-right?

Opposing ILLEGAL migration does not mean far-right politics and saying syrians should go back their country neither. Civil war in Syria is about the end and Syrian state pardons all of its citizens criminal or not. Most of the opposition parties in Turkey have the same political views. The Turkish government media and German state-affiliated media accuses the party of being racist and far-right. 178.240.17.210 (talk) 01:44, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

This party is only Right-wing, not far-right. Please watch last Ümit Özdağ's broadcast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dolunayingolgesi (talk • contribs) 04:45, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

I've just noticed this now when browsing the article. This party is certainly not far-right (extreme right or right-wing extremist). They are definitely anti-immigration, and illegal immigration at that. They cannot be compared to parties in other countries because the migrant situation in Turkey is one of a kind in the world, with the highest number of refugees in the world and open borders.

I also don't think it's right to base this on articles by foreign outlets. One calls it far-right and then it sticks with future reporting. I also agree with the above section in that the party isn't "Ulusalci" - that's just sourced from an opinion piece about the party's founder himself.

Even if this was corrected, I'm 99% sure it would keep getting reverted to 'far-right' so it would be helpful to have this discussed here first. —Editchi (talk) 18:20, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Whatever extraordinary circumstances regarding immigration in Turkey do not change the established fact that the Victory Party is considered to be far-right by a multitude of quality sources that have repeatedly been removed from the article without proper justification. Wikipedia is not a forum to discuss the political positions of parties, and it is neither in our duty nor authority to decide on what far-right means. Egeyam (talk) 13:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Egeyam I provided the reasoning for removing some of the sources above, but I see that they were added back. Will you provide reasoning? Otherwise I'll assume this is intentional abuse of this article. Homorebelus (talk) 19:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I would disagree with your statement about foreign sources, and actually say the converse. Outside viewpoints are naturally less biased. Egeyam (talk) 13:30, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

It is not your duty to decide anything about the politics and you are not an authority as well. You can not say that FOREIGN sources and their opinions are unbiased. Media is a business, and every business takes its side.178.243.235.47 (talk)

Edit Request To Remove Unreliable Sources

• The unreliable sources for the "far-right" need to be removed:

I am neither opposing nor agreeing with this claim, but definitely better sources are needed. I already removed them and provided my reasoning in the talk page but they were added back. Let's see what these sources are:

- Financial Times, "Tension over Turkey's 4mn refugees nears boiling point" - I am unable to read it without a subscription, but it is definitely a reliable source.

- Daily Sabah, "Battle of words between Soylu, Özdağ turns into standoff" - Daily Sabah, according to the well cited statements in its wiki page, is a "pro-government daily", "mouthpiece of the AKP", and "has been described as using transparent and ill-formed, Turkish-style propaganda to advance the AKP government's version of events". It is not an acceptable source for an opposition party.

- Bianet English, "Higher inflation for the poor, controversy in politics" - I think Bianet is reputable enough but it merely mentions Umit Ozdag as a far-right in a "Weekly Roundup" of quick news stories from that week. We can surely have a better source than this, if this is indeed a far-right political party.

- KARAR, "Türk siyasetinin yabancı düşmanlığı ile imtihanı - Osman Sert" - This is an opinion piece / column, in the online newspaper KARAR that I am not familiar with. It is not a news article and cannot be treated as a source.

- Business Standard India, "Erdogan vows to send 1 mn refugees back to Syria amid Opposition's push" - Seems to be a reliable source as well.

In short, the sources from Daily Sabah, and KARAR definitely need to be removed, and possibly also Bianet.

Homorebelus (talk) 20:11, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your constructive efforts to improve this article. I would agree with your opinions on Daily Sabah, and the KARAR article is indeed an opinion piece. However, I would argue that they demonstrate a consensus that the party is considered far-right by a variety of actors from differing viewpoints and perspectives, and thus strengthen the article. Egeyam (talk) 09:10, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

References

 Note: Closing the edit request, as this is not a request for a specific edit, rather it appears to be a request for more opinions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Far right?!

ZP is not a far right party. The numerous references given have no relation whatsoever to the "far-rightness" of this party. Labeling any right-wing or nationalist party as "far right" is ridiculous. Whoever made this edit has an agenda. --Infestor (talk) 22:01, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

New Controversy

“During the 2023 Turkiye-Syria earthquake one of the major leaders of the party Ümit Özdağ made a baseless claim that refugees were looting Turkish cities and other false information within the first hours of the disaster.”

I believe this is a good starting position. 2001:1970:5163:1200:0:0:0:5CDE (talk) 18:00, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

source? Shadow4dark (talk) 18:04, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Neofascism

Neofascism has to be included within the ideologies as it is what most supporters of the party adhere to. 176.218.62.17 (talk) 12:55, 25 June 2024 (UTC)