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Why not Loriot?

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Why is the name of this article not Loriot? Madonna's article isn't Ciccone or Ritchie, either. I propose renaming as per this. --345Kai (talk) 11:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I absolutely agree! --OberMegaTrans (talk) 17:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there's not exactly a popular uprising happening to get this page moved, is there? Two voices in 10 months? The page Loriot is not available for this article because it is currently a disambiguation page for 1) an explanation that it is the French name for the bird Oriole (but we knew that already, didn't we?); b) Vicco von Bülow; 3) an American sailing ship.
One could argue that VvB is the most prominent of those by far, and should have that article (most other language Wikipedias do). That would require administrative action to move the VvB article to "Loriot" and require some follow-up action in the form of hatnotes on that article (e.g. This article is about the German humorist. For the American sailing ship, see …).
Who has the knowledge of Wikipedia procedures and the determination to see this through? I certainly don't. As it is, the English speaking reader needs one additional click to get from "Loriot" to VvB — big deal. And frankly, I think Loriot is only of minor interest (about 30 page views/day; >400 at DE) to the English speaking world, because his is one of the least translatable expressions of German humour; heck, it's difficult enough to convey the humour of any Loriot phrase to a German who's never heard it before. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I did rename the French page "Vicco von Bülow into "Loriot (humoriste)", as VvB is indeed known almost only as Loriot in Germany —and well-known, by the way. His texts are also edited as written by Loriot, so I would say that the natural option would be to rename it in en.wiki as well. Mianreg (talk) 11:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Which disambiguator do you suggest? "(comedian)" or "(humorist)"? He is currently categorised in German comedians. There is also a Category:German humorists.
A better idea might be to move the page Loriot to Loriot (disambiguation) and then move this page (Vicco von Bülow) to Loriot; the incoming links to the Loriot page seem to intend VvB anyway. But again, I'm not sure that can be done without administrative assistance at Wikipedia:Requested moves; alternatively, the Template:Db-move might be tried. Then of course the article's lead needs to be rewrittem and a hatnote must be added.
As I wrote above: there seems to be very little demand for any page move, and it only takes one additional click to get to this page. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:COMMONNAME clearly is in favour for "Loriot" → Google Ngram Viewer →[1]. --IIIraute (talk) 03:40, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
An Ngram for German texts will of course show a higher usage for "Loriot" than for "Vicco von Bülow". In English, "Vicco von Bülow" won't show anything at all and it's doubtful what the uses of "Loriot" refer to. Still, I've described above what needs to be done to move this article to Loriot. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:06, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Mianreg (talk · contribs) OberMegaTrans (talk · contribs) Michael Bednarek (talk · contribs) 345Kai (talk · contribs) IIIraute (talk · contribs). I expanded and cleaned up Loriot (for now the disambig page) to reflect that VvB is the main topic of interest under the name Loriot. This is supported by the Wikipedia traffic statistics. As per WP:NAME and suggested above, I support moving VvB to "Loriot" and "Loriot" to "Loriot (disambiguation)", plus a hat note on the new Loriot page. I will place a move request at WP:RMT in a couple days if nobody objects.-Ich (talk) 08:57, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Die Lage wird es gewesen sein

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OK, so there's been some back and forth about how to translate the beautiful Loriot quote about his influences: "Ich weiß, als ich anfing zu studieren, wohnte ich zwischen dem Irrenhaus, dem Zuchthaus und dem Friedhof. Allein die Lage wird es gewesen sein, glaube ich." This understatement is not easy to capture, so I'd propose: the location alone explains everything, I think. If you want to stay as close to the German original as possible, I think the location alone did it, I suppose or it could only have been the location, I guess captures the German tone more closely than the current the location alone has been it, I think. (Sagen Sie jetzt nichts, Hildegard.) Cheers, Mabuse (talk) 16:14, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, the phrase "the location alone has been it, I think" doesn't make sense in English -- it's a literal translation of an idiomatic expression which loses much of the meaning because we don't use the same words to express this particular idiom in English. As for a proper translation: "wird es gewesen sein" doesn't just mean "that's how it happened" -- it has the shadings of an answer to an accusation -- as if, instead of being asked for his influences, he had been asked how he has ended up lying face down in a ditch. To really nail this shading, you need to express that slightly guilty self-deprecation. I propose a slight variation on Mabuse's formulation of "the location alone did it" -- instead, how about "the location alone is what did it"? This ever-so-slightly implies an unstated question about a slightly dubious actor, insinuating that the real question isn't "what are your influences?" but the rather less sycophantic "how on earth did you end up this way?" As for ending it "I suppose" -- "I think" doesn't exactly match what Loriot is saying here, I think -- this is a bit tricky. I think that if he hadn't said "Allein" at the beginning of the sentence, you could get away with "I think," because it tends to imply a weakening of the clause it follows -- that is, adding "I think" makes it feel like he's modulating his confidence in his opinion downward, and I don't think that's what "glaube ich" is doing in the original German. I agree with "I suppose", because it has a hint of resignation which works beautifully with the humor of the sentence, and has an air of self-deprecation. Tempest67 (talk) 18:12, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Leave it to Tempest67 to supply a much better formulated linguistic argument confirming my initial gut sense. I shall fix the translation to the location alone is what did it, I suppose until someone comes up with something more Loriotesque or Michael Hofmann becomes a Wikipedian. Thanks! Mabuse (talk) 18:40, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Tempest67,

these are some nice considerations. Regarding the first change I agree with your assessment.
But the second change loses the meaning which the german "glaube ich" comprises. When you say "he's modulating his confidence in his opinion downward" you were exactly right. This is what we mean in Germany when we use this phrase. Hence "I think" would be the preferred translation.
To say "I suppose" would rather have the meaning of saying "nehme ich an" which qualifies the statement. But I think Loriot did not want to qualify his statement about the location, he just wanted to leave a slight ambiguity. So "I think" should be the phrase to use here.
By the way: also the beginning of the quote does not seem to catch the point of the original. Loriot said "Ich weiß...", whereas the translation states "I remember that...". But "to remember something" is different from "to know something". The latter would be the literal translation and I think would also nail it.

What do you think? 84.137.98.176 (talk) 20:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're right - the first line should be changed to "I know when I started studying" not "I remember." But I'd still go with "I suppose" instead of "I think." "Suppose" indicates the assumption that something is the case without proof and works well against the definitive "Ich weiß," so it conveys the shift in certainty.

So, how about this rendition: "I know when I started studying, I was living between the madhouse, the prison and the cemetery. The location alone is what did it, I suppose."? (Original: Prägende Einflüsse? "Ich weiß, als ich anfing zu studieren, wohnte ich zwischen dem Irrenhaus, dem Zuchthaus und dem Friedhof. Allein die Lage wird es gewesen sein, glaube ich.")

Mabuse (talk) 13:21, 26 August 2011 (UTC) PS: what could work instead of "I suppose" as well here is "I imagine" -- more self-deprecating and less conjectural. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mabuse (talk • contribs) 13:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello 84 &c.,

thanks for your thoughtful response. I could be convinced to ditch "I suppose," but I fear I did a bad job of explaining why I wanted to go with something slightly different from "I think" -- it's too intellect-bound. That is, it expresses lack of confidence (you're right that the original German does do that, of course, and that needs to be retained) in a way that one would use to discuss impersonal facts, instead of psychologically freighted statements about personality. It implies not only uncertainty, but the possibility of certainty, as in "One uses the logarithm in this case, I think." It sounds a wee bit unnatural here in English, and a bit too distancing and aloof. I actually think Mabuse's suggestion of "I imagine" is most on target -- it retains the "I'm not quite sure" uncertain bumblingness and also the irony... Tempest67 (talk) 14:59, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Vicco von buelow loriot 08 2005.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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I don't remember how to edit pages so I'm just posting a link to the photo at archive.org that should be more long-lived in case anyone wants to make the change.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160809181947/http://www.tikonline.de/wp-content/uploads/_data/loriot-briefmarken-gr.jpg

Auenwald (talk) 10:31, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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