Talk:Vanniyar/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Please remove section Malayaman and kadavas from this article

The section Malayaman and kadavas need to be removed. The section Malayaman and kadavas should go to article Vanniar (Chieftain).

The palli changed their caste name to vanniyar in the 19th century only. So Malayaman and kadavas are clan names around 10th to 13th century. This article is about palli who changed their name to vanniyar. I respectfully request the editors of Wikipedia to remove section Malayaman / kadavas and move it to Vanniar (Chieftain).

Educational References by reputed university have been provided below

A History of India

By Professor Peter Robb

https://books.google.com/books?id=GQ-2VH1LO_EC&pg=PT249&dq=palli+vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FnniVJffIJPSoASysILYCQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=palli%20vanniyar&f=false

The Pariah Problem: Caste, Religion, and the Social in Modern India

By Rupa Viswanath . University of Columbia

https://books.google.com/books?id=QnbeAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA273&dq=palli+vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FnniVJffIJPSoASysILYCQ&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=palli%20vanniyar&f=false

Landscapes of Urban Memory: The Sacred and the Civic in India's High-Tech City

By Smriti Srinivas. University of minnesota

https://books.google.com/books?id=RmOvKsagbAgC&pg=PA287&dq=palli+vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FnniVJffIJPSoASysILYCQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=palli%20vanniyar&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nambudiri 1961 (talk • contribs) 23:24, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

https://books.google.com/books?id=OcEM2IsnA1AC&pg=PA278&dq=palli+claim+kshatriya&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oXHlVLyKJMXvoASDk4GICA&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=palli%20claim%20kshatriya&f=false

Ritual, Caste, and Religion in Colonial South India

edited by Michael Bergunder, Heiko Frese

https://books.google.com/books?id=g5dHEQ6nWAcC&pg=PT8&dq=palli+claim+kshatriya&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oXHlVLyKJMXvoASDk4GICA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=palli%20claim%20kshatriya&f=false

Castes and Tribes of Southern India, Volume VI of VII

By Edgar Thurston

many of the sentences in this article need to be corrected/removed. The palli changed their name to Vanniyar in the 19th century and now claim Kshatriya status. Please revert the article to Feb6 version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nambudiri 1961 (talk • contribs) 06:23, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

https://books.google.com/books?id=8Czd7xXIf3MC&pg=PA90&dq=palli+untouchables&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WYTlVKOFL8TaoASp74LgBQ&ved=0CE8Q6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=palli%20untouchables&f=false

The Burma Delta: Economic Development and Social Change on an Asian Rice ...

By Michael Adas  University of Wisconsin.

many educational references have been provided to clearly indicate the actual status of Palli. The article should clearly mention that Palli were low caste workers and have no connection to ancient vanniyars. I respectfully request senior editors to review this article and if more information is required I can provide those. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nambudiri 1961 (talk • contribs) 06:40, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

This has been an ongoing issue with the article. I don't think we can actually remove those sections because both Burton Stein and Noboru Karashima are respected academics. Karashima clearly equates the Palli with the Vanniyar, unless of course we are misquoting him (I cannot see the source); the Stein point is potentially more ambiguous but we really need to see the Stein source itself, rather than quote McGilvray second-hand.

At the end of the day, we have to be neutral and that means showing all valid opinions. Of course, if far more scholars support one opinion than another then we should balance things accordingly. Certainly, this might mean merging those sections into a more general, rounded discussion of the history of the names. I think we need sight of the Karashima and Stein sources, so I would be extremely please if anyone happens to have them and is prepared to email me a copy of the relevant pages. - Sitush (talk) 15:34, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I would like to respectfully make the following points.

1. The palli caste changed their name to Vanniyar only in the 19th century. There is no historical proof to link palli with vanniyar. Burton Stein just mentions about vanniyar. There is no mention that ancient vanniyars are Pallis.

In Peasant state and society in medieval South India Written by Burton Stein Oxford University Press, 1980 - History - 533 pages. Clearly mentions that Palli are peasants and also makes special reference as vanniyar of later times.

https://books.google.com/books?id=F-HSAAAAMAAJ&q=palli+vanniyar&dq=palli+vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=akTmVPraFInYoAS3w4LYDg&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADhu

More educational reference. The Modernity of Tradition: Political Development in India By Lloyd I. Rudolph. University of Chicago.

Please read from page 49

https://books.google.com/books?id=7guY1ut-0lwC&pg=PA51&dq=palli+social+status&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vkXmVID3B4HwoASlkoHQDg&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=palli%20social%20status&f=false

Lloyd I. Rudolph. University of Chicago clearly mentions that Palli are just trying to connect themselves to ancient vanniyars. Malayaman and Kadavas should be moved to article below. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanniar_(Chieftain)

Also there is no page or link to Nooboru karashimas article. There is no referece which can be seen any where which clearly states that Pallis are the ancient vanniyars.

I kindly request senior editors and Sitush to move the malaiyaman and Kadava to below article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanniar_(Chieftain).

Nambudiri 1961 (talk) 20:44, 19 February 2015 (UTC)Nambudiri 1961

Like I said, I am not doing anything until I have seen the Stein and Karashima sources. I don't deny that the preponderance of opinion seems to be that the two communities are distinct but I also cannot deny that there appear to be some excellent authorities who think otherwise. If someone else wants to remove the information then there is nothing to stop them from doing so but please bear in mind that I will quite probably revert them because we have to assume that the statements reflect the sources until proven otherwise. - Sitush (talk) 12:30, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2015

61.17.17.4 (talk) 13:07, 25 April 2015 (UTC) S.S.Ramasamy padayatchi

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 13:13, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Kadavas

I need a Proper Explanation for the removal of kadavas section from the article (Prem) 07:25, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

You have been getting one, as you well know. The problem is, the same difficulty is arising at several articles. See Talk:Kadava dynasty for one thread about this - in which you are involved. - Sitush (talk) 08:11, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

And Talk:Sambuvaraya. - Sitush (talk) 08:14, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Key point is Palli community started calling themselves as vanniyar only in late 19th century. Many references have been provided. Addditional ref below

Dr. Balasubramanian from university of madras has explained clearly how Community of Palli started creating a false caste history.

Social and Economic Dimensions of Caste Organisations in South Indian States University of Madras, 2001

https://books.google.com/books?ei=GHlNVaCHC4zaoASW1ICQCw&id=wG3aAAAAMAAJ&dq=Palli+caste+tamil&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Palli

Sangitha rani111 (talk) 03:10, 9 May 2015 (UTC)sangitha_rani

I have been reading yet more sources about this issue but I cannot incorporate this one (Balasubramanian) into the article because I can only see a snippet view. Using snippet views is deprecated because we do not usually have sufficient context. No need to panic, though, as there are plenty of other sources out there (as you know). - Sitush (talk) 09:18, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Request to edit article.

Please change the introduction to the following sentences.

The Vanniyar, are a community or jāti found in Southern India.

reference provided below

1. Islamic Area Studies with Geographical Information Systems edited by Atsuyuki Okabe
2. Tamil Temple Myths: Sacrifice and Divine Marriage in the South Indian Saiva ... By David Dean Shulman ( university of princeton )
3. The politics of scarcity: public pressure and political response in India University of Chicago Press
4. The Burma Delta: Economic Development and Social Change on an Asian Rice ... By Michael Adas
5. Caste and Democratic Politics in India By Ghanshyam Shah

Sangitha rani111 (talk) 01:35, 5 May 2015 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

Lead sections should summarise the body of an article. That is, the opening bit above the table of contents should outline what we say in the content proper. As a general rule, there should be no reason to include citations in the lead because the more detailed explanation should be cited in the body. This is explained at WP:LEAD.

I am sure that you are correct but do not have time at present to incorporate all of your sources into the body. I presume you are unable to do so yourself? If so, give me a nudge in a couple of days and I will try to sort it all out. - Sitush (talk) 18:56, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

@Sangitha rani111: I have just reformatted your opening message so that it is easier for people to refer to it. More to follow. - Sitush (talk) 09:21, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

References

Elaboration on the status of caste structures

Topic banned contributor. - Sitush (talk) 21:16, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to know which part of the sentence is copyright as it is not a word by word copy of the book. Also which part is irrelevant? Merkcid (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

== vanniyar are kings ==

vanniyar are kings because it had been proved by many researchers and even shown in television channel (Sun tv). so kindly please change the wrong things in it.because the future generation will think wrongly. even the name Padaiyachi means (Head of the army). Ajithnandhini (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Please cite a reliable source for your claims. utcursch | talk 18:05, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

References

No where in the page no 447 in the "Rise of Plebeians" book it is mentioned as it is given below .

In the book "Rise of Plebeians" in page no :447 no where it is mentioned as given in the page as below in the quotes .

Vanniyar, who were then known as Pallis, had ceased to accept their "low caste" status, more specifically described as that of shudra by Christophe Jaffrelot .

I am looking for the justification from the editor , why these lines shouldnt be removed from the page ? Suryavarman01 (talk) 14:53, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Citation Required

I am looking for the citation for the following lines .

"The Vanniyar, who were once known as the Palli, are a community or jāti found in Southern India" Suryavarman01 (talk) 15:18, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 August 2016

Vanniya Gounder:-

Vanniya Gounders are living in all over tamilnadu. They are also called as Gounder, Vanniyar, Padayachi, Nayagar, Reddy, Rayar etc., Somesome people's are living in andra and karnataka. Most of the people's are formers. Particularly Salem has so many wievers in vanniya gounder community. Some people's has peaceful business. The leading population in tamilnadu has vanniya gounders.

1.39.61.2 (talk) 15:32, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not made a specific request in the form "Please replace XX with YY" or "Please add ZZ between PP and QQ".
More importantly, you have not cited any reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 16:33, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 September 2016

163.47.14.192 (talk) 10:30, 26 September 2016 (UTC) Late Mr. Sattanathan ICS (latter Kalaignar formed a committee "Sattanathan Committee")and Late Mr.Manivanna (The then GM of Sakthi Pipes) formed a forum called (SSS)Social Service Society and did quite good service to the community.

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — JJMC89 (T·C) 15:44, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 January 2017

2.50.135.238 (talk) 07:37, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 07:46, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Malayaman section does not make sense

Malayaman section does not make sense. It talks about the 13th century vanniyar who have no connection to modern day vanniyar. Palli have started calling themselves as Vanniyar. Can we remove the malayaman section. Please discuss. Sangitha rani111 (talk) 03:34, 15 March 2017 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

In the 18th to 19th century the Pallis were mostly agricultural workers. The Palli are trying to create a pseduo / fake history by using political power. wikipedia should reflect the truth. The Malayaman section can be removed since does not make sense and the book offers no connection betwenn Palli and Malayaman.

I have provided references which indicate that Palli were mostly agricultural workers.

Constructing Dalit Identity Page 43 - Clearly states the above https://books.google.co.in/books?redir_esc=y&id=z0JuAAAAMAAJ&dq=Constructing+Dalit+Identity&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=palli+slaves

Caste: origin, function, and dimensions of change Suvira Jaiswal Manohar Publishers & Distributors, 1998 - Social Science - 278 pages

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Ny5uAAAAMAAJ&q=palli+vanniyar&dq=palli+vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y

Malayaman section should be removed from the article. Samaskrita bhattar (talk) 10:32, 10 May 2017 (UTC)Samaskrita bhattar

Samaskrita bhattar take it easy and use decent language.Electron mass (talk) 04:19, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Political system

@Zanygenius:, as you know I got hold of a copy of the source that you mentioned when you added

The Vanniyar once had it's own political system in the 20th century that would govern the region. This consisted of the leader, often born of a caste movement, then had it's supporters as representative lawmen.

The problem is that I cannot spot where it says what you claim. Yes, there were caste associations and there was the PMK political party but where does it says that they had their own political system that governed the region? What you wrote sounds like secessionism in some form or another but I'm just not seeing it in the journal paper. - Sitush (talk) 20:43, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

References

@Sitush: The website ended up giving me a run-around. I think I ended up using Pharaphrasing, and is not in fact quote from the website. Also, I thank you for letting me know. Sincerely, User: Zanygenius(talk page) 20:50, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be a quote and in fact paraphrasing is what we should do most of the time. However, if you cannot see the entire source then it is often more wise to either ignore it or try to find someone who can see it. This is because it is all too easy to take something out of context unless the entirety of the source is read. - Sitush (talk) 21:34, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

@Sitush: Hi, I will make sure of that, So, I probably (shouldn't) return it to the Vanniyar article. Also, I would like to apologise that we closed our one discussion, but I guess if you had to dealw ith what I wrote it wouldn't be good. So another user decided to close it out. Also, I only did one indention as a tip from User:Vermont, If we can do that, it won't get so crazy. Sincerely, User: Zanygenius(talk page) 22:14, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Present status is wrong

Hi in the present status section it is describing that vanniar were agricultural labours but the real status is they were rich they were decentans of chola according to vanniar puranam a book They were rich and they had plenty of land which they will give it to lease

Even they can't remember from which land the food items came from Star2242 (talk) 14:38, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

We do not consider sources associated with a caste to be reliable. They are often glorified, puffed-up nonsense. - Sitush (talk) 14:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Vanniyar status is almost equal to the status of schedules castes.Vanniyars have marriage relations with Parayars and Pallars for many centuries.Vanniyars are a branch of Pallars.The book Vanniyar Puranam says Vanniyars are born from Pallars and Vanniyars and Pallars marry extensively — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.17.163.70 (talk) 09:46, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Historical section Edit Request

'Lloyd I. Rudolph' mentioned as 'Vanniyars cease to accept their status as 'humble agricultural caste' so the article should be updates as below : "Researcher Lloyd I. Rudolph notes that as early as in 1833, the Vanniyar had ceased to accept their status as humble agricultural caste." Suryavarman01 (talk) 04:24, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Consensus on Adding "Origin" Section

Hi, can we get some consensus on adding the Origin section as follows. My changes were recently reverted by Sharkslayer87 (talk · contribs) (who interestingly has been topic banned before) under the pretext of maintaining a NPOV. I do not understand how deleting the views as interpreted by 3 historians is NPOV. If at all, a counter view must be added in order to maintain a NPOV. So please post your opinions on adding the origin section as below:

A Vanniyar legend claims that their ancestor Rudra Vanniya Maharaja (or Vira-Vanniyan) was born from the flames of a fire sacrifice. This sacrifice was performed by the sage Jambava (also Champuva or Shambhu) to ward off the demons Vatapi and Mahi. Vira-Vanniyan had five sons with Indra's daughter, and his family defeated the demons with the help of the goddess Durga.. According to some historians like Thurston, Rangachari and Hiltebeitel, these folklore were an allusion to the conquest of the Western Chalukya capital Badami(Vatapi) by Narasimhavarman Pallava.

Thanks, Nittawinoda (talk) 17:51, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

References

The origin section is a POV or false caste glorification. The caste group Palli changed their name to Vanniyar only in the late 19th century. The ancient Vanniyar have no link to modern day Pallis ( modern day vanniyar ). There is no need for a origin section. Sangitha rani111 (talk) 04:57, 23 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

I am fairly sure that this has been discussed before, so perhaps check the archives to this page. I'm also fairly sure that Sangitha rani111 is correct. Certainly, we cannot use Thurston or Rangachari, and making sense of what Hiltebeitel says is often quite a challenge because his style of writing is so dense. - Sitush (talk) 05:02, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Sitush. Additionally I have provided some references to indicate that Palli caste group was mainly involved in land tilling till 19th century , had a low ranking and pallis wanted to be disconnected from land tilling and agriculture ... The origin is a clear POV aimed at caste glorification.

• India's Silent Revolution: The Rise of the Lower Castes in North India Page 183

• Social and Economic Dimensions of Caste Organisations in South Indian States page 92, 93 Sangitha rani111 (talk) 05:20, 23 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

Nittawinoda, in addition to the above, what is the Hiltebeitel 1999 book you mention? It looks almost as if you have just copied this from some other article. If so, which article? - Sitush (talk) 05:27, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

I've just added a bit from one of the Hiltebeitel books noted above that I am fairly sure I have correctly understood. I'm not opposed to mentioning some claimed origin, as indeed the article already does, but it has to be put in context and based on reliable sources such as Hiltebeitel himself. - Sitush (talk) 05:52, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

@Sitush: I would like to include the origin story as detailed in this book and the parallel drawn between Narasimhavarman's conquest of Vatapi and destruction of the demons Vatapi and Mahi, [1](page 36). Also the reasons cited by Sangitha rani111 (talk · contribs) and similar users is in itself a POV and biased as these users seem to be deciding the occupation and status of the Pallis or Vanniyars based upon the events during the Raj era or their status in the last couple of centuries. This in no way is an indicator of their occupation or status 1500 years ago. Nittawinoda (talk) 17:03, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Nittawinoda there is no bias against any thing here. As you can read from sources caste groups manipulate information to assume fake identities to improve social standings. Sangitha rani111 (talk) 04:12, 24 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

Sangitha, can you please try indenting your posts? I've just done it for the one immediately above.

Nittawinoda, I have a vague memory that the issue here and at least one other article covering a caste in the same geographical region was whether or not the present-day community known as Vanniyar is even the same as the ancient community that bears the name. The other article may have been Vellalar vs Velir. I think there was a consensus that in changing their name from Palli to Vanniyar the modern community usurped the name as a means of glorification, whilst the sources talking about origin myths were referring solely to the original community. But it is ages since I looked at this and my head is all over the place at the moment. If I'm right, there will be a discussion somewhere in the archives for this article. I certainly don't suggest anyone relying on my memory! - Sitush (talk) 05:42, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Vanniyar is trying to put wrong history, we should remove Edits by Nittawinoda Edits by Nittawinoda is pure casteism and fake details — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tinnin001 (talk • contribs) 22:52, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Nittawinoda please revert your changes. You are clearly trying to glorify article by creating false history. Also the sources mentioned are not reliable and cannot be even verified Sangitha rani111 (talk) 02:07, 25 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

Why? what's wrong in adding the name of the Palli feudatory of Kulothunga Chola II?

"During the reign of Kulothunga Chola II, there was a vassal called Palli Alappirandan Elisaimohan alias Kulottungasola Kadavaradittan "

Nittawinoda (talk) 03:42, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

First of all these links are not verifiable, The resource is not reliable. Also even if is mentioned that is a name and we are talking about a caste group.

There is lot of proof for palli being shudra, Since 19th century pallis are claiming false status... Please revert your edits since you are clearly doing POV and glorifying caste using un-reliable, fake resources Sangitha rani111 (talk) 03:54, 25 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

(edit conflict) Bearing a name does not prove anything and I am surprised that you do not know this by now. For example, Helen Reddy was not a Reddy. If what you quote is all you have to support your claim, it is unacceptable and I will be removing it pending something better. - Sitush (talk) 03:55, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

In fact, that entire edit was ridiculous. First, you assume that the Palli mentioned in the name relates to the Vanniyar, then you go off on a whim about how Kadava is connected. You've used two different sources to reach what appears to be a synthesised conclusion, and the first one doesn't even remotely support your claim. Then in your next edit you removed some valid stuff from high-class academics, one of whom you even suggested we should use earlier in this thread. I've left a note on your talk page and I think you need to reconsider some of our most basic policies and guidelines before contributing further to this or other caste-related articles. - Sitush (talk) 04:04, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

And now I have had to revert you because you cited the unreliable The People of India which in turn was citing the unreliable Oppert! You said in your edit summary that an alternate view had to be shown to maintain neutrality. You are misunderstanding NPOV. That policy does not mean balancing one viewpoint with any other but rather one reliably sourced viewpoint with any other reliably sourced point. There is no obligation to balance a reliably sourced POV with a load of nonsense - that would be crazy. - Sitush (talk) 16:21, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

@Sitush: Why is Dr.Oppert's view point unreliable? Who are you to judge or second guess his opinion. You are all ok to accept sources that are favorable to your view but then when someone presents a source contrary to your viewpoint then you term it as unreliable. Hypocrisy at the finest. Nittawinoda (talk) 16:28, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I do not have a view, therefore I have nothing to favour. Oppert died in 1908, at the height of the period of scientific racism in India. He isn't reliable for squat, nor are any other sources from the Raj era or earlier. That is a long-standing consensus, not me pushing some sort of POV. The only POV I am seeing here seems likely to be coming from your direction - for whatever the reason is, you seem determined to counter what appears to be the common modern academic consensus. - Sitush (talk) 16:32, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Then do not remove Oppert's view. You should rather add a source from another historian that counter's Dr. Oppert's view. Nittawinoda (talk) 16:37, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

No, that is not how NPOV works. I've only recently explained this to you above, and you're continued to force your edit into the article. It is unlikely to end well if you persist in this behaviour. Is this article really a hill worth dying on? - Sitush (talk) 16:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

This says that Oppert was "Not an important scholar, many of his publications were harshly criticized". There are loads of academic papers that describe him as "credulous" etc, eg: this one. - Sitush (talk) 16:55, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm unsure whether he actually discusses origins but you may have more success in pursuit of balance by looking at the McGilvray book that is already cited in the article. I've never read that one right through but he definitely touches on the "Vanniyar as chiefs" type of issue, he is a modern academic and he is respected. I suppose the issue is really does he mention the Pallis, given that vanniyar and alternate spellings was also a name for a chief. - Sitush (talk) 17:32, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

This [[2]] discusses the claims, it seems to have been made and I see no reason why the claim should not be mentioned.Slatersteven (talk) 18:30, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

The issue regarding Oppert has been raising at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Is_Gustav_Solomon_Oppert_work_a_reliable_source_?. - Sitush (talk) 18:57, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Slatersteven since when does a public administration expert who wrote history books as a amateur qualify as reliable? I think you will find that S. N. Sadasivan has been discussed and deemed unreliable on many occasions in the past. He practically single-handedly started a caste war in some parts of south India with his revisionist speculations posing as truths. - Sitush (talk) 19:00, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Not as far as I can tell he has not, care to link?Slatersteven (talk) 19:09, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Try the archives of the nair article or WT:INB. I'm not wasting my time on it: you can either AGF that I am right or do your own research. Just one look at his bio on this project would tell you that he has no formal academic expertise in the subject of history. And weighty tomes of pseudo-history find a ready market in India. - Sitush (talk) 19:16, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Well it is down to you to prove your point, not down to me. But I did do a search, I am seeing a lot of talk (on only one of those) and it seems that it leans towards Sadasivan not being an RS.Slatersteven (talk) 19:27, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I have already proven it. Didn't need to go digging. Put your brain in gear and re-read what I said above: he had no formal expertise as a historian. - Sitush (talk) 19:33, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

No you had claimed it, proof is not the claim. Someone does not have to be formally trained as a historian to be an RS on history, or culture. It helps if they are qualified, it is not a requirement of RS to be qualified, just highly regarded.Slatersteven (talk) 19:39, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

+Unable to properly verify but Indian Antiquary - Volume 52 - Page 80 says " but the Pallia or the Palli- vilis claim to be the descendants of the last Pallava", can some with access check?Slatersteven (talk) 19:33, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

You are talking bollocks. This is Indian caste history we're talking about. I'll drop you a note. - Sitush (talk) 20:07, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

So you are saying the source does not say this?Slatersteven (talk) 15:19, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

What source? I am saying that we should not accept statements from sources where the author thereof is not suitably qualified. I don't see what is unreasonable about that? Have you seen how much crap is out there regarding caste stuff, often generated by warriors and self-glorifiers? I really do not think you understand the issues and, yet again, I'm finding you to be tendentious and, frankly, ludicrous in your wikilawyering about policies and guidelines. Try some common sense - it works wonders.

If someone isn't qualified as a historian, their recounting of history is not going to carry much weight. And, before you trot out your usual line, no, it is not the case that we would include them because they are reliable for their own opinion - go down that road and we would be including everything, every crackpot theory, every hagiography, every communal attack website etc. If you can't see the slippery slope of your ideas, there is no hope for you here. - Sitush (talk) 15:57, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

The source I quote above your comment about it being bollocks.Slatersteven (talk) 16:44, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Oh, that. 1923 article by the amateur anthropologist Richard Carnac Temple. Are you being serious? Have you taken on board anything I have said either here or at WP:RSN? Please don't ask me silly questions when you know what the answer is going to be - just more time-wasting. - Sitush (talk) 17:37, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, yes that source. I said I could not verify it and so asked if those with access could see who and what it was.Slatersteven (talk) 17:58, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand how you couldn't verify it but could see the bit you quoted. And the damn thing has umpteen copies at archive.org, which I know is available to you. All I did was google your own words, ie Indian Antiquary - Volume 52 - Page 80. Are we looking at a CIR issue here? Or have you suddenly moved to China from the UK? For what it is worth, I didn't read it. I don't need to because it is 1923 and we're not going to use it. And also for what it is worth, the Pallava thing is actually in the article now, using modern sources as I have been saying we should all along. Keep up! - Sitush (talk) 18:15, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Because google searches do not always give you full information. You might get (as I did here) a snippet that seems to say something, but without full access you can tell nothing about context or even who wrote it.Slatersteven (talk) 10:16, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

This is what I am talking about, Sitush and his cronies term any and all sources that talk of a Palli-Pallava connection as unreliable. Nittawinoda (talk) 03:50, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

User Nittawinoda has been focused on messing up caste articles with his biased point of view. I kindly request Nittawinoda to follow the policies of wiki while editing and not indulge in false glorification, Also kindly be respectfull of editors Sangitha rani111 (talk) 01:10, 26 January 2019 (UTC)Nittawinoda

(edit conflict) Nittawinoda, who are these cronies of mine? Are you aware that you crucially misunderstood what Hiltebeitel was saying in your latest edit to the article? I've just had to fix it because you didn't even accurately copy the quote (and I'm not referring spelling his Kstriya as Kshatriya). Are you also aware of the problems of identifying these ancient groups? For example, there is an academic difficulty with the Vanniyar title vs the Vanniyar caste name, with the Velir title and the Vellalar name', with Gounder old and new, with Pratihara ... and so on. Most academics treat these things as distinct and note that communities, such as the Vanniyar themselves, assimilated ancient "worthy" titles over time in order to project a self-image of a glorious past. - Sitush (talk) 05:32, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Sitush please provide feedback... The below source mentions Pallis were slaves at one time, is it allowed to add these Page 58 Book from Cambridge University https://books.google.com/books?id=mVqyAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA58&dq=palli+slaves&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXm-SL2orgAhUqh1QKHel-DeYQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=palli%20slaves&f=false Is this content strong, Sangitha rani111 (talk) 05:27, 26 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

I've not read it in full but a quick glance suggests that the source itself is fine: modern, academic, good press etc and, unlike much of what Nittawinoda has put forward, the page you link makes an explicit connection between Palli and Vanniyar, thus avoiding the issue of whether we are mistakenly connecting by synthesis the name for an ancient dynasty etc with the modern name adopted by a caste. - Sitush (talk) 05:36, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Sitush, I am reading it as he is talking about Pallis / modern day vanniyar since he does not talk about historical dynasties,

I leave this to your interpretation. Sangitha rani111 (talk) 05:49, 26 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

I have provided another source which mentions Pallis changing their name to vanniyar in the 1931 using organized efforts

Just want to add there is no link or reference for palli to ancient vanniyar

https://books.google.com/books?id=Lskk9njQ2MoC&pg=PA287&dq=pallis+adopting+vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiIxu2z4IrgAhW7GTQIHWBeAhQQ6AEIODAD#v=onepage&q=pallis%20adopting%20vanniyar&f=false Landscapes of Urban Memory: The Sacred and the Civic in India's High-Tech City Minnesota university Page 287 Sangitha rani111 (talk) 05:56, 26 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

Yes, I don't think there is any dispute that their name was formally changed for the 1931 census. The Brits quite frequently beggared about with caste nomenclature when put under pressure, which is one of the reasons why the number of officially recorded castes kept fluctuating so much. - Sitush (talk) 06:09, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Noboru Karashima

I have a vague memory that Noboru Karashima did quite a lot of work on this topic. Probably worth looking up. - Sitush (talk) 08:34, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Found an old discussion here. - Sitush (talk) 14:25, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Sitush will review these Sangitha rani111 (talk) 05:22, 29 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

Gough

I have just adjusted the mention of the thoughts of Kathleen Gough because we were misrepresenting what she said. She treats the Palli and Vanniyar as separate entities, although that will probably be because of how people self-identified to her during her fieldwork in the early 1950s. I'm not quite sure what to make of it because it throws yet another spanner in the works here. Not uncommon, of course: caste namings and groupings are often very messy and people made them up as they jostled for socio-economic or political advantage. I will see where it leads but if anyone wants to revert it then feel free.

I am re-reading five books at the moment related to this issue and have requested a chapter from another. And I do mean re-reading, not delimited Google searching and/or quick eyes across snippet views or the ends of pages where I cannot see the context that follows on the next (unavailable) page - there has been too much of that going on. - Sitush (talk) 08:55, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Vannimai section

We have been waiting years now for quotes from sources in the Vannimai section. I note that the Vannimai link itself is a redirect. Can anyone provide the quotes or should the section be binned? - Sitush (talk) 05:56, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Please bin the Vannimai section Sangitha rani111 (talk) 04:14, 24 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

Leave it a little while longer in case other people have an opinion and/or can resolve the tagged problems. - Sitush (talk) 04:05, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

McGilvray's Crucible of Conflict book, which we already cite for something else, does refer to the possible Vanniyar immigration to Ceylon/Sri Lanka & the subsequent use of vanniyar as a title there. See around p. 60. However, he doesn't use the word vannimai and Vannimai is a redirect anyway. I think, at best, this is probably an item for a See also section. - Sitush (talk) 09:27, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Sambuvaraya link

Require consensus on adding the Sambuvaraya link. In my opinion, this refers to Vanniyar caste as Stein compares the chiefs with the Reddis and Velamas:

According to historian Burton Stein,

The Sambuvarayas were Vanniyar chiefs, part of that group of peasant warriors - like the Reddis and Velamas of Andhra - who rose to local prominence under the imperial Cholas to become the dominant peasantry in many parts of the Arcot and Kanchipuram by the fourteenth century.

As usual Sitush (talk · contribs) has reverted my edit. Others please chip in about adding this info. Pinging @Slatersteven:, @Johnuniq:, @Doug Weller: Nittawinoda (talk) 16:18, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Please do not be sarky. If it is "as usual" then that would be because of the quality of your contributions but, as it happens, you have made many contributions that I have left alone. You should be aware of the issues: (a) Vanniyar has two meanings, hence the dabhat on this article; and (b) they were called Pallis and then in the 1800s took on the history of an earlier group. Numerous sources attest to that process of inventing tradition and it is evident in their own writings etc from the 19th and 20th centuries. - Sitush (talk) 16:15, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I will add that you have done a lot of work on Vanniyar-related stuff across a lot of articles. If you're affiliated to the modern community then that perhaps would explain it. And also explain the problems. Just in case, check WP:COI. - Sitush (talk) 16:17, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't know for sure what the answer to these problems may be but I do think it is wrong to conflate the history etc of what appears to be two groups. Maybe we need yet another article, maybe we need some internal way to distinguish the two within this single article. Whatver the answer may be, we can't simply write a load of contradictions. - Sitush (talk) 16:26, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

@Sitush: and other users note, If your reason for not adding this material by Burton Stein, is because the Pallis renamed themselves as Vanniyar and that the original Vanniyar chiefs(Sambuvarayas) referred in the above source is different from the Palli caste then you must check this source [3] where the Sambuvaraya chief is referred to as a Palli. So do not say that they are different. Nittawinoda (talk) 16:24, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

No, you can't do that, Nittawinoda. I'm sure I have tried to explain to you before that we are not permitted to synthesise sources, and in any event the lack of capitalisation for palli in that source, despite nearby proper nouns being capitalised, is distinctly alarm-bell-sounding. And your link also demonstrates something else I have mentioned before which I think is at the very heart of your problems with sourcing: you go looking for specific phrases, not reading around the subject generally. Your method will inevitably produce skewed results. - Sitush (talk) 17:26, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

@Sitush: - I was not synthesising, my aim was to merely post the source with the chief's name, hence the search. Also I keep hearing from you regarding multiple uses of the words Vanniyar, Palli etc. Do you have any sources that state that the ancient Vanniyar are different from the modern Vanniyar caste or if the ancient Pallis are different from the modern Palli caste. As far as I can tell all historians like Stein, Hiltebeitel all refer to the modern Vanniyar caste when they say Vanniyar. Nittawinoda (talk) 18:21, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

If I search for "earth flat" I will probably get results that appear, in snippet view, to verify that the earth is indeed flat. As for your query, please read the article as there are sources already there saying that the Palli people of the 19th/20th centuries took on the history of a prior community. What am I not understanding? As I said earlier in this thread, I don't know for sure what the solution may be but you keep inserting statements of synonymity as absolutes when we clearly do not have a situation that warrants such. - Sitush (talk) 18:28, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

The source says Vanniyar chiefs, so unless he is talking about chiefs of chiefs her must be talking about rulers of a group called the Vanniyar (the subject of this article).Slatersteven (talk) 19:26, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Which source? And which Vanniyars? I don't think you understand this at all, Slatersteven. You certainly hadn't up to yesterday and this latest comment doesn't seem to demonstrate a change. I refer you yet again to such things as mythologising, invention of tradition and sanskritisation, which are common in Indian caste histories. I also refer you to the multiple uses of the words Vanniyar and Palli and to the fact that this article has always been about the modern community, with plenty of sources saying they adopted the identity of an older community. Like I've said, I'm not sure how best to deal with it but conflating the two is not the answer. - Sitush (talk) 19:31, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

The New Cambridge History of India, the one quoted as saying "Vanniyar chiefs", now if there were (or are) other tribal (or caste) groups called Vanniyar I would like to ask why we do not in fact mention this, or the fact that this (and we do not make it clear) only about a modern tribe or cast. This would in fact go a long way to prevent this kind of dispute. In fact I can only find references to two uses of this word (here on Wikipedia, this article and one about a title, which would (as I said) make this source say Chiefs of Chiefs (and I note the spelling is different anyway). If there are more then two uses we need to make this clear so as to avoid this kind of confusion.Slatersteven (talk) 19:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

^^ And there we have it. You clearly have not read the article, nor taken into account what I have been banging on about for years here. It clearly delineates that the is a modern 19th century community that claims a connection to a much older community. Alternatively, you're sticking your head in the sand regarding the common complexities of caste, not to mention the pretty obvious COI that Nittawinoda has regarding the modern Vanniyars and their claims to a glorious past. Such claims are, of course, common and I've guess at least 70% of the time they turn out not to be correct: before I began editing Wikipedia, it seemed as if everyone in India had been a king or chief. No more. - Sitush (talk) 20:10, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I wonder if the problem re: not understanding the complexities arises because you think caste groups are fixed entities? They are not: they come and go by a process of fission and fusion, not to forget plain fantasy. For example, the 1901 census of India - admittedly not particularly reliable - recorded slightly over 1200 castes, based on self-declarations; that figure was around 4000 by 1991. - Sitush (talk) 20:19, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

No I am asking why such a complex subject is not made clear here for the lay reader to understand. Who are the Pali, where do they come form, who were these earlier Vanniyar. This is all material that should (to my mind) be in this article, there is no valid reason for it to be about this modern Vanniyar. Why is it only about this modern group? As I said I can only find two articles about this word here on Wikipedia. Readers are going to come here and (as I did) assume this must be about the earlier Vanniyar because we do not in fact say anything about any earlier group who had that name.Slatersteven (talk) 20:25, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry but you are being disingenuous now. You came here because I called you out at WP:RSN. As for the purpose of the article, well, like I said, I have been banging on about this for years, right up to this last week. The problem throughout has been a small group of caste members wanting to assert that the old and more modern communities are the same, despite modern academic sources suggesting otherwise. You really do need to understand that there are also massive gaps in Indian history and that appropriation is common. I know in my own head what the two solutions are but they'll never fly because there are a very small number of people with experience who patrol this area and many tens of thousands of people in the real world prepared to disrupt, whether deliberately or out of ignorance and faith in what their grandmother told them etc. NPOV goes out of the window, and Nittawinoda's recent efforts are an example of that: selective sourcing, selective quoting, stating as an absolute something that they know is contradictory etc. - Sitush (talk) 20:48, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

No I came here because I was pinged (twice). As to the rest, if there is a problem we explain it, we cover it. What we do not do is dismiss any mention of it. Yes I do not know a lot about the subject, so I can only find out what you (and others) include here. If information is not here I cannot know it, so it is down to you to make that knowledge available. This article seems to ignores 700 years of Indian history to concentrate on trying to say "But what these people claim is lies" without even giving context as to what they are claiming a heritage from. If the average English speaker comes here, the (unlike me) will be looking up this word, where will they have found it

? It is more then possible form the very kinds of sources you deprecate, and if we do not discus this in the context of the historical (and well as modern) use of this word they will not be any better off then they were before.Slatersteven (talk) 23:03, 29 January 2019 (UTC) @Sitush: do we agree that Hiltebeitel refers to the modern Vanniyar community (of Tamil Nadu) in page 282 of this source [4] when he talks of their legendary origin from the fire sacrifice of sage Shambu in order to destroy the demons Vatapi and Mahi? or are you stating that this in fact refers to the so called ancient Vanniyar? Pinging others as well @Slatersteven:, @Johnuniq:, @Doug Weller: Nittawinoda (talk) 18:45, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

it seems to yes.Slatersteven (talk) 19:21, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: can you clarify your stance? Is that a yes "Hiltebeitel refers to the modern Vanniyar caste of Tamil Nadu" in the above mentioned source? Thanks, Nittawinoda (talk) 19:25, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

See my response below.Slatersteven (talk) 19:31, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

No. The link you provide is not Hiltebeitel but someone summarising something Hiltebeitel says. So you've misrepresented things before I even read the page properly, and then when I do it seems to be entirely about the 14th century etc. I'm not quite sure why you are even using the summary - you've used his own books previously. - Sitush (talk) 19:28, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Good point I stand corrected. We can say the spruce says Hiltebeitel has said this, but who is "Smriti Srinivas"?Slatersteven (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

We can say Spruce says Hiltebeitel says or we can go to the horse's mouth. But, either way, the passage in question is not referring to the modern community. Unless you consider the 14C to be modern. - Sitush (talk) 19:33, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Smriti Srinivas is a Professor of Anthropology at the University of California, Davis. Nittawinoda (talk) 19:36, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I cannot see any single date, it also goes onto say the 16thC (and before that explicitly says "Today", as well as relating how Hiltebeitel was told a story (I assume he was not active in the 14thC?)), but then google preview does not allow me to go onto the next page.Slatersteven (talk) 19:39, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Then that would make him an RS for this anyway.Slatersteven (talk) 19:39, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

What the heck are you reading? It mentions 14th century at least three times on that very page. And the recorders of legend that Hiltebeitel is referring to are the much denigrated Edgar Thurston and Rangachari (read Hiltebeitel's original if you need proof of that). - Sitush (talk) 20:12, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

The last line says 16thC, and above that we have "...a number of elements to be found today..."20:29, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Eh? I feel like giving up. There are more than two lines on that page. Say it loud: in this area you are clearly incompetent. - Sitush (talk) 20:50, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Of course there are more then two lines, what does the last line say?Slatersteven (talk) 22:54, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Yuo said above that you cannot see the next page. Without that context, you cannot make sense of the last lines of a prior page. This is Wikipedia Sourcing 101 and any competent editor would know it. - Sitush (talk) 08:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

So what is the context, What is it talking about?Slatersteven (talk) 09:29, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: we are only concerned about point no. 4 on page 282 of this source [5]. Does Smriti Srinivas' summary of Hiltebeitel refer to the modern community called Vanniyar or not? Nittawinoda (talk) 03:57, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

The main problem is user Nittawinoda is trying to manipulate / distort information.. The Palli changed their name to Vanniyar only in the 19th century. This is a common feature of many caste groups in India where they create fake histories.

Social and Economic Dimensions of Caste Organisations in South Indian States Dr. R. Balasubramanian This book explains how the Palli caste group have manipulated information https://books.google.com/books?id=wG3aAAAAMAAJ&dq=Palli+vanniyar+Balasubramanian&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Palli I will check if the book exists in library — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sangitha rani111 (talk • contribs) 04:26, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Etymology

I think the following are not relevant in Etymology "The connection to the sage leads to further associations with mythological legends[7] (esp. that of the Mahabharata)[8] whilst allowing them to trace their origins from under the Pallava empire.[7]" I am planning to remove these since it is mentioned some what in history section as well

Please provide comments

Sangitha rani111 (talk) 04:01, 14 February 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

The entire statement seems to be sentences mixed up from various pages to provide a somewhat different meaning — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sangitha rani111 (talk • contribs) 05:16, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

category

Please Add this Category (Category:Agricultural castes). Thank you.-- Gowtham Sampath (talk) 17:42, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Social status

Vanniyars social and economic status is equal to daliths.Vanniyars and Daliths had marriage relationship for many cneturies.Veerapans daughter also married a dalith — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.171.107.111 (talk) 18:39, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Sources are required, see WP:VERIFY and WP:RS/ Doug Weller talk 19:35, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

This is fake and should not be published.. dalhits are the lower cast and vanniyar are the high cast Kanagaraj.k5387 (talk) 12:43, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Need a new section on Slavery in this article

The following books describe how the Palli farmhands were collectively bound to their home villages soil and their mobility was severely restricted I am proposing adding the following Palli farmhands were collectively bound to their home villages soil and their mobility was severely restricted. As Dharma Kumar, argues the term slavery does not adequately describe the many forms of bondage existing with in the traditional agrarian society Caste involved a number of criteria slavery like criteria like restriction of freedom, forced labor and ownership

Kindly discuss https://books.google.com/books?id=Qx8kCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA33&dq=palli+slaves&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiksMjY1JTgAhV9FTQIHZW2BxAQ6AEIUDAH#v=onepage&q=palli%20slaves&f=false Andrea Major , Oxford University press Page 33 Sangitha rani111 (talk) 04:37, 30 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

This was mentioned in the article ca. 2012. The thing was even more of a mess then than now but a skip through the diffs in the history may be useful. - Sitush (talk) 08:56, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Sangitha rani111 (talk · contribs) is a POV pusher who has added nothing but negative things to the article. Worth noting that she was blocked for edit-warring sometime back. [6]. Nittawinoda (talk) 16:32, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Nittawinoda for your information, I am not a POV pusher, Actually you are the POV pusher who is clearly manipulating information I am providing oxford university publications, Cambridge publications and how can you call oxford university publications, Cambridge publications as POV If you see all my sources are academic publications. I am just quoting academic work done in academic institutions.. Again slavery was a key thing which was part of the palli community . Please check my resource and comment on it... Also in the past you have been name calling and you are being disrespectful. Kindly be respectfull and go through my sources. My point is oxford university publications, Cambridge publications are reliable and no was POV. Also in the last 3 years I have never put anything with out discussion in talk page first. Nittawinoda seem to be involved in edit warring and clearly doing fake glorification of the article. Sangitha rani111 (talk) 17:21, 30 January 2019 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

Comment on content not users.Slatersteven (talk) 17:52, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Sangitha rani you belong to sc caste right? Elite1011 (talk) 12:13, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Vanniyar community is a peasant shudra community, please check links, I kindly request to read these references and make edits

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Untouchable_Citizens/9ouHAwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=peasant+caste+vanniyar&pg=PA61&printsec=frontcover States vanniyars are a peasant caste in tamilnadu Page 61 Untouchable Citizens Dalit Movements and Democratization in Tamil Nadu Hugo Gorringe is a Senior Lecturer in Sociology at The University of Edinburg

The Meaning of the Local Politics of Place in Urban India Labor was provided by low caste vanniyar Page 31 https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Meaning_of_the_Local/E196AgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vanniyar+low+caste&pg=PA31&printsec=frontcover

Dyeing industry was provided by low caste vanniyar Page 77 The Everyday Politics of Labour https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Everyday_Politics_of_Labour/ppbkEJAEVCIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vanniyar+low+caste&pg=PA77&printsec=frontcover

Vanniyars are the largest peasant caste Page 445 https://www.google.com/books/edition/Rise_of_the_Plebeians/tDN0MinxMigC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vanniyar+peasant+caste&pg=PA445&printsec=frontcover Rise of the Plebeians The Changing Face of the Indian Legislative Assemblies Christophe Jaffrelot, Sanjay Kumar

Till the 19th century vanniyars are landless agricultural caste laborers Pag 273 https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Pariah_Problem/QnbeAwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vanniyars+labors&pg=PA273&printsec=frontcover The Pariah Problem Caste, Religion, and the Social in Modern India Columbia university press

Historical Dictionary of the Tamils Vanniyar and pallars are grouped and considered low caste with low status Page 385 https://www.google.com/books/edition/Historical_Dictionary_of_the_Tamils/ALUvDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vanniyars+labors&pg=PA385&printsec=frontcover

Sangitha rani111 (talk) 03:22, 12 May 2020 (UTC)Sangitha rani111

I agree Sura261 (talk) 17:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Delete this page

Who made this page? , everything in this page wrong attribution. Elite1011 (talk) 12:11, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Most of things updated on this page is wrong. Please delete this page if u need details please let me know I can prove the most of details are wrong. PraveenSankaran (talk) 19:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Very wrong information about the vanniyar community..do you know the 1987 reservation protest in tamilnadu.. who edit the article its very very wrong information.delete the page first.. Kshatriyan007 (talk) 19:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 September 2020

Change "The Vanniyar, also spelled Vanniya,[1] who were once known as the Palli" to "The Vanniyar refers to the Vanniyar Kula Kshatriya caste in Tamil Nadu" Reference from TamilNadu Govt Official Website: http://www.bcmbcmw.tn.gov.in/bclist.htm SLNo 169: Vanniakula Kshatriya ( including Vanniyar, Vanniya, Vannia Gounder, Gounder or Kander, Padayachi, Palli and Agnikula Kshatriya ) Senthil Tamilan 20:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC) Also, remove the " "Senior Ramadoss arrested". The Telegraph. 1 May 2013. Retrieved 27 May 2018." as the citation is no more true/valid and News Citation was removed in the Telegraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Senthilvasans (talk • contribs) 21:41, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Your source does not verify your proposed edit. Have added an archive to the Telegraph source. – Thjarkur (talk) 10:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 October 2020

Please allow the edits for this page. Worldmonk (talk) 00:01, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

To editor Worldmonk:  Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. Thank you for your interest in Wikipedia! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 02:59, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

2 February 2019

Dear Editors, I have asked for the below edit in the Historical section Lloyd I. Rudolph mentioned as 'humble agricultural caste' so please do that change or remove the Lock for edit on this page.Suryavarman01 (talk) 05:27, 2 February 2019 (UTC).

4 April 2020

Vannier is collective name of 108 sub-caste please change that and palli is not a low caste

Vanniyar will come in kshaktriyar and not sudhra.. edit it they are upper caste and holds the second place in the society... correct it — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kanagaraj.k5387 (talk • contribs) 12:41, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

9 June 2020

Vanniyar will come in Kshatriyas not shudras. Indian government of British era has recognised them as vanniya Kula Kshatriya as well Tamil Nadu government has publicly announced vanniyar as vanniya Kula kshatriya.

This page is showing false information with a very very worst vengeance ideology — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bharathiraja Desing (talk • contribs) 03:18, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Page-specific sanction

As an uninvolved administrator, I am placing a six-month page-specific sanction on the Vanniyar article:

• Any edit that has been challenged by reversion may not be reinstated, either wholly or substantially in part, without first gaining clear consensus on the talk page.

This restriction is placed in light of the recent history of reversions and sock-puppetry, and will expire six months from today, i.e. on 25 May 2021. --RexxS (talk) 21:31, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Regarding Some new sections

Hi! I have created 3 new sections to the page as Demography, Various titles and Vanniyar associations. All sections are well sourced with reliable sources. International journal and reputed books are been cited. I propose these 3 sections to be restored as it contains nothing disputable. I have answered to user Kautilya3 in user Bishonen talk page. He have doubted about this source. I have explained that section can stand alone even without this source. Other reliable sources are cited additional to this. The user Byasa Banerjee is likely sock of old user Sangitha rani111 and SPI investigation is going on. I have added most important notable peoples to Notoable peoples section with exact reliable source. The problematic user was adding some content to lead section which was against WP:MOS WP:LEAD and LEADCITE so I removed them citing these policies. If some one thinks lead section is disputable they are welcome to restore previous version. But not removing vast content of demography, various titles and Vanniyar association section.--Universalrahu (talk) 03:34, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

User Bishonen have said his version that these sections are not glorifying. If any other user have to say something they are welcomed..RegentsPark, Mr.Sarcastic and Kautilya3.--Universalrahu (talk) 16:08, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Sourcing

[Copied from User talk:Bishonen]

(talk page stalker) An example of a dubious edit you have made is to use this source (which reeks of a vanity journal) to add "Kshatriya" label in Wikipedia voice. This article even claims that there is something called a "Smriti law" which dictates the surnames people are "required" to add! You need to junk this source and all content sourced to it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:55, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

As a rule, note that journals that are truly "international" rarely call themselves "International Journal of...". Most journals that do so are pretenders, often started by corner place University or College departments to put themselves on the map. These journals are then put into their annual reports to buttress their claim that they are research-active and seek funding. You need to check who the publisher is and see their track record in actual research, not in starting up journals. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:01, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi!Kautilya3 (talk)Thanks for your reply. I don't see this source is a junk. The author have cleverly mentioned each and every point to the core in detail. And I don't see i-scholar(the source) have been abused here in past. Even if you thought "Various titles" section to be dubious there are other reliable sources to that point cited clearly with them. And Its a big joke here is that even demography section seems to be dubious! which is clearly cited with reliable source. The Vanniyar Association section also seems to be neutrally written just as a piece of information on when and where was it started and its role in Vanniyar caste... rather than exaggerating them. What about notable people section? each and every one is well cited to show there notability. So please mention what is your problem clearly by section wise. Which section you like to detest? I think Talk page must be used when the content is disputable. Except lead section I didn't get any contest from any user. So I request to restore all sections with whatever consensus we get on lead section alone which is disputable.--Universalrahu (talk) 16:47, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

i-scholar.in is not the publisher. It is a web hosting site. The publisher is named as "Globeedu Group" [7]. The editor is a certain "Mr. S.K.Ghosh". What do you know about this publisher and this gentleman? What is their specialism? Track record? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:26, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Universalrahu you have one objective and one mission to create a alternate false reality where the Vanniyars are Kshatriya. Clearly trying to make this article like a vanniyar caste publication, promoting vanniyar caste in wikipedia , You are involving in glorification editing For example: Zamin of Pichavaram from vanniyar community - You have used a invalid and unverified news paper link and then you state they are chola descendants. For example: You have creates a section called title and have given undue weight to it, this section is irrelevant.

I would not use news paper as reference , In 1936 Gazette vanniyars were considered dalits or scheduled tribe, I am not saying add these things but trying to provide accuracy here

https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_India/GQ-2VH1LO_EC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vanniyars+palli+laborers&pg=PT254&printsec=frontcover

Also certain books state vanniyars would work for gounders. But you are saying vanniyars are the same as gounders https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Everyday_Politics_of_Labour/ppbkEJAEVCIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=vanniyars%20pollution

Universalrahu Please avoid making this topic a Vanniyar caste origination publication — Preceding unsigned comment added by Byasa Banerjee (talk • contribs) 06:10, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi! Kautilya3 I have clearly mentioned that even without that disputed journal I have made reference to authentic book sources which are undisputed. Even I remove that journal that doesn't going to affect that section "Various titles". It was added as additional source only. We can remove that source if you don't wish to be there. But to your note that journal have an ISO certification to its credibility. I'm not going to reply as of now to Byasa Banerjee (talk as SPI is going on on this user. If any other user have to say something please comment as soon as possible. Thanking you.--Universalrahu (talk) 14:26, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

These book , The vanniyars and harijans belong to the same socio-economic state, both are largely peasant farmers and the titles like gounder are attempts to make this article a Vanniyar caste publication. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Social_and_Economic_Dimensions_of_Caste/wG3aAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=vanniyars — Preceding unsigned comment added by Byasa Banerjee (talk • contribs) 06:51, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

As I suspected user Byasa Banerjee is sock puppet of old disruptive user Sangitha rani111. It has been concluded in SPI investigation and the user is blocked indefinitely. In wake of this reason I reinstate all my valid old edits. Hope there will be no more disruption. User Kautilya3 have questioned a source to its reliability. So I remove that source. RegentsPark, Bishonen If any other user have anything to say please come forward. The discussion is always open.--Universalrahu (talk) 15:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

நாங்கள் PMK IT Cell அல்ல, PMK க்கு எங்களுக்கு எந்தக் கடமையும் இல்லை. நாடார் கட்டுரையில், தேவர் கட்டுரையில், ஆடு நங்கள், அனைத்து caste -based கட்டுரைகளிலும் casteist mindset oppose பண்ணிடுவோம்.

Just because Vanniyar Sangam or PMK says something doesn't mean it should be in Wikipedia. S Ramadoss said Dalits wear sunglasses and jeans to steal Vanniyar Girls, should we put that statement as true in Wikipedia? We shouldn't accept such no matter if community was Iyer or Konar or Paravar. C1MM (talk) 08:57, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

As an uninvolved editor, I write that edits are a concern and effort to bring glory to vanniyar caste by using misleading in-correct information to add a Kshatriya label. The article is neutral and good as is and article does not need new sections. Elowa (talk) 05:23, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

In your first edit [8] ,you added the term 'Vanniya kula kshatriya' without any citation and said it as MOS:LEAD when the name is not even in the page. You called it as an official local name in your next edits when it is only used by regressive caste pride groups and caste orgs to show off a mythical history that vanniyars are born from fire. I disagree with all your content. You selectively took citations to glorify the caste. This version is the most neutral.42.106.176.131 (talk) 19:49, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

---

17-04-21 [user:Ragunandhanv]

I fing this page unuseful based on no evidences just stories. Vanni kulam or vanni kudi is the true kula name of this caste. People ofvanni kulam are called as Vanniyars. Vanniyars are also called as Palli not previously. According to Vanniya puranam Rudravanniya or vanniraya came out of agni kunda or anala kunda or homa kunda or Yagnakunda by a Yajna done by sage Jambu Maharishi and so the gotra of vanniyars. There are other gotras too like bhargava and Kashyapa which belongs to fire-race as well. Some claim Palli was named to vanniyar during British by politics but sadly PMK came into existence in the late 70's but vanniyar were given kshatriya status in 1929.

G.O given below:

Government Order of Legislative council resolution of giving vanniers or palli the status of Kshatriya in 1929.

Its clearly mentioned in the G.O that vanniers or Palli are assigned as Vanniya kula kshatriya an Agni kula kshatriya in Tamilnadu and Andhra. Palli is another name of vanniyars as well and not changed to new name or removed.

Vanni is a kula name which means Fire and synonymous with term Agni and there are numerous titles used by Vanniyars which are in official records upto 108 titles. Some are mentioned in Page 14 of Castes and Tribes of Southern India by Edgar Thurston. It clarifies vanniyars are kshatriyas and are descents of Chera, Chola, Pandya and Pallava. [user: Ragunandhanv]

Pages 26 Palli or vanniyan titles Edgar thurston

It just shows the hatred towards vanniyas

In history , we can say anyone and everyone good and bad by going through various documents. In this article , the neutrality is heavily disturbed by legal vandalisers in Wikipedia, who just showed their hatred towards vanniyars in the article. More of the content in the article is heavily biased against vanniyars. Nayinar Kshatriyas (talk) 07:53, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

You are mistaken, there is no hate, you must realise that you are trying to create a false, fake, in-correct narrative that current vanniyars was kshatriyaas. The article is well neutral and do please read the books mentioned as references in the article, you will learn that vanniyars are trying to self-promote and self-glorify theirs caste by manipulating information. Please do not indulge in dubious editing. Elowa (talk) 18:26, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Please refer "silai ezhupathu" written by Kambar before you claiming that Vanniyars are Sudras.. Vanniya Padayachi (talk) 15:17, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Kambar was not a historian. Also Vanniyars claimed this claim in 19th century and they were know as Pallis as per historians. It is debatable whether the people who historically held Vannia title were a homogenous group and are related to Vanniyars of today Ihaveabandonedmychild (talk) 08:07, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 January 2021

Vanniyar comes from the word Vanni or Vahni meaning Fire in Tamil and Agni in Sanskrit and are synonymous. Vanni is also a Tree which is significant for Vanniyars and it symbolizes Victory, Bravery and Fire. People who belongs to this Vanni kulam are called as Vanniyars. Its name can be rooted to Vanniya Puranam in which a sage named Jambu or Sambu maharishi performed Yajna (Yagam) and Sivan in response from his third eye an Hero was born from the Fire-Pit or Agni kunda and he was called as Rudra vanniya or Vanni raya and his descents are vanniyars and so its a belief that they are Fire born out of Agni kunda. The term "palli" was used to denote Vanniyars. Palli is neither a Kulam nor caste but a term used to denote Vanniyars. The term has the meaning King as in Pallipedam or Pallikattil means King's throne. 117.194.140.72 (talk) 15:39, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Please clearly state what change you wish to see in the article (e.g., "change x to y"). And please note that no change will be made without reliable sources--RegentsPark (comment) 16:06, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Auto Shankar????

How do you say a culprit is a notable people.? It is debatable that auto Shankar is vanniyars or not. But it is unfair to show an culprit in the notable peoples section. It increases effect the sarcastic tone to the article... Faster edits (talk) 19:42, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

www.outlookindia.com › story Veerappan's widow pleads against telecast of serial - Outlook India Please refer to this article.It mentions the fact that Auto Shankar is a Vanniyar. There is absolutely no debate on this incontrovertible truth .There is no sarcastic tone whatsoever. I doubt you even know the meaning of sarcasm. Auto Shankar is a popular figure and a web series was made based on his life. I don't see any merit in your protest? Care to elaborate Ihaveabandonedmychild (talk) 07:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Auto Shankar can be removed from the article since there is no valid reference, Is that ok? Can you provide more references like books, Please provide recommendations. Elowa (talk) 18:34, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Auto Shankar's caste has been mentioned in his biographic article as citation no.3. Please refer that. I would request admins to paste it in this article to avoid further dispute. Ihaveabandonedmychild (talk) 13:46, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

21 March 2021

Dear Senior Editors, can we use picture/photo of any book ? or it will be considered as copy right violation? --Worldmonk (talk) 16:56, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 May 2021

{{|Vanniyar|answered=no}}

122.171.157.179 (talk) 13:46, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi

Hi Shdjaoalxmx (talk) 14:54, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 July 2021

122.172.254.63 (talk) 06:37, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 07:38, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Notable Person

Veerappan, Bandit cum Forest Sandalwood Smuggler during 1962–2002 (Tamilnadu, Kerala & Karnataka). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pondywhitehouse (talk • contribs) 07:03, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 November 2021

Vanniyar Sangam has loged a complaint due to references to the community for Jai Bhim movie 128.106.160.45 (talk) 16:01, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:03, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 January 2022

The whole content about vanniyar in wikipedia is not true please, know the history and make such content please I'm having more respect on wikipedia. 202.21.42.144 (talk) 15:42, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:46, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

What is the reliable source currently used in this page to support the claims Yogiyogiyogi (talk) 03:16, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Statement

Vanniayars are found to be the warrior clan of South India with myth of Agni puranam,they served as archers and soldiers for pallava and chola Kings,and the title padayachi is Given to the cheiftein of soldiers they are equally placed alongside with maravars (Brave) another community warriors in the cholas army — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sathish Kshatriya (talk • contribs) 11:24, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 January 2022, vanniayrs

Vanniayars are found to be belongs to the warrior society of north tamilnadu . Historical evidence proves that the vanniayars belongs to the clan of pallavas and cholas as well as chalukya army as archers and warriors 106.217.10.242 (talk) 19:18, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

@106.217.10.242:  Not done That might be interesting, however, you have not specified what you want changed and you state "Historical evidence proves" without providing any verifiable reliable sources for such "historical evidence". I suppose that is fine if you are talking to someone that is interested and intimately educated on the subject and knows where to look for such but it is not useful here. Please specify what you want changed clearly and provide verifiable and reliable sources for such a change. Thank you, —Uzume (talk) 19:27, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 January 2022

Aravazhik (talk) 06:50, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Can you remove Auto shankar from the Vanniyar Wikipedia. It is not correct one.

 Not done for now: Not sure if outlookindia is a RS but this source from them, which is already cited on Auto Shankar's page, says he was Vanniyar Cannolis (talk) 08:28, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 January 2022

Vannier sangam katchi photo rajinikanth actor. Alis p. Balaji dftech. 2409:4072:E94:52A4:10F3:B858:A7A1:2404 (talk) 01:55, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:04, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Please add the fact that Vanniyar women used to practice prostitution in history section. @ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk)

Here is an excerpt from a reliable source. "The mendicant Pandārams, who are recruited from various classes, wear the lingam, and do not abstain from eating flesh. Many villages have a Pandāram as the priest of the shrine of the village deity, who is frequently a Palli who has become a Pandāram by donning the lingam. The females are said to live, in some cases, by prostitution." I have attached the source link below Source link - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4040:D19:338F:314E:1D6A:E48C:30BD (talk) 12:09, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Tagging User:C1MM. Please add this in history section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4040:D19:338F:314E:1D6A:E48C:30BD (talk) 03:38, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

References

Change in history

Vanniyas are not Australoid Dravidian There is no class named Dravidian ,,,its was miss spelled and added by some peopl Docsakthi (talk) 18:15, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 February 2022

Aravazhik (talk) 08:39, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi Sir,

The Auto Shankar is not belongs to Vanniyar community. He is belongs to Sengutha Mudaliar. Can you please remove the name from the Vanniyar wikipedia under Notable person list?

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of Vanniyar history

To the respected author, The information provided in this page is misleading and inaccurate to the core. We have historical sources for the Kshatriya claims. There is a malicious intent behind this misinformation campaign on Vanniyar. Please address this concern. Yogiyogiyogi (talk) 03:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes the person own this Wikipedia page has to legally punished for the defaming of a whole cast because of his dirty mindset Van nikula Kshatriya (talk) 19:26, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Admins, not sure why no actions has been taken. Is it not against wiki policies to post legal threats? @ User:Bishonen

@Yogiyogiyogi Yes please take action on this . Wrong information is given by the Administrator about vanniyar. This is Hurting and misrespectful about the community .Please replace with true information Junoo1986 (talk) 04:10, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 March 2022

The Vanniyar or Vanniya Kula Kshatriya's (Vanniya Kula Kshatriya's) are a large Tamil caste that lives densely in Tamil Nadu, especially in the north (to the north of the Cauvery River) and to a lesser extent in other parts of the country. [1] [2] They also live in areas like Pondicherry, southern Karnataka and southern Andhra Pradesh. They were in Backward class until 1980's After successful agitation of reservation by Dr.Ramadoss and Kalaignar M.K.Karunanidhi they were brought under the most backward class in the reservation list of the Government of Tamil Nadu. [3] They were formerly known as the Palli or Padayachi,Gounder,Kander,Vanniya,Nayakar And Vanniya Gounder,Agni Kula kshatriya all these categories are commonly known as Vanniya Kula kshatriyas in Tamil Nadu. 2409:4072:8E83:E8A2:EEEB:5A35:4CE:707A (talk) 04:02, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 08:36, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Hatred speech

Is this way to corner a community in a degradable position? The way the lines have been written itself clearly portrays the writer's motive. It is not the way to degrade or shaming a community. Even in the discussion section, someone requested to add on a weird statement which is nobody would've been wanted to hear in India. Shame on Wikipedia to allow such things for a longtime to create chaos. 49.205.82.4 (talk) 19:21, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 March 2022 (3)

The Vanniyar or Vanniya Kula Kshatriya's (Vanniya Kula Kshatriya's) are a large Agriculturists Tamil caste that lives densely in Tamil Nadu, especially in the north (to the north of the Cauvery River) and to a lesser extent in other parts of the country. [1] [2] They also live in areas like Pondicherry, southern Karnataka and southern Andhra Pradesh. They were in Backward class until 1980's After successful agitation of reservation by Dr.Ramadoss and Kalaignar M.K.Karunanidhi they were brought under the most backward class in the reservation list of the Government of Tamil Nadu. [3] They were formerly known as the Palli or Padayachi,Gounder,Kander,Vanniya,Nayakar And Vanniya Gounder,Agni Kula kshatriya all these categories are commonly known as Vanniya Kula kshatriyas in Tamil Nadu. Junoo1986 (talk) 05:00, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 08:41, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

The Details enclosed Vanniyar Mahavamsam Book and Many Other books to Define the Life of Vanniyars and their professions.

The Vanniyar is Portrayed very badly as per this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanniyar . They are not Shudras category and not dravidians . They Mostly work in Army , Navy of great kingdoms of Chola and Pallavas. It is baseless to call them as Shudras SabarishG Warrior (talk) 17:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

c

The Main Occupation of the Community is to work in Army as Army Chief of Chola and Pallavas. In Chola all the Army and Navy Chiefs were Padaiyatchi and the word Padai + Atchi= PadaiAtchi which is reffered to as Army Chief, The Vanniyar community has its own Welfare Associations which is the richest Association in South India as the kings donated a huge Land and Money for welfare of the community with Approximately six Lakh Crores Indian Rupees(80 Billion USD). The majority of the Donors were Chengalvaraya Nayakar and Many Others philanthropists of the community donated as Thousands of acres . The President of India has approved the bill for Vanniyar Kula Khatriyas Trusts and Management board

https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/chennai/2018/dec/14/vanniyar-trusts-mgmt-bill-gets-president-nod-1911304.html  — Preceding unsigned comment added by SabarishG Warrior (talk • contribs) 17:26, 26 April 2022 (UTC) 

Add this fact that prostitution was one of the occupation of Pallis, also known as ,Vanniyars

Please add the fact that Vanniyar women used to practice prostitution in history section. @ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk)

Here is an excerpt from a reliable source. "The mendicant Pandārams, who are recruited from various classes, wear the lingam, and do not abstain from eating flesh. Many villages have a Pandāram as the priest of the shrine of the village deity, who is frequently a Palli who has become a Pandāram by donning the lingam. The females are said to live, in some cases, by prostitution." I have attached the source link below https://www.gutenberg.org/files/42996/42996-h/42996-h.htm

@User:Cannolis,can you consider this request? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4040:D0D:6C2C:97D0:AA83:B98B:3BC1 (talk) 03:59, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

@User: ScottishFinnishRadish It is not a change from "X" to "Y" but rather an addition of a new statement. In the article, it is mentioned Vanniyars primary occupation was agriculture. I want you to add the fact that prostitution was also one of the occupations among Vanniyars. I have added the citation link and the excerpt from the citation as well in the previous request. Please approve this. It has been long pending. You can change the statement in current status section which starts like this, "Traditionally most Vanniyars were agricultural laborers" to "Traditionally Vanniyars were into agriculture and prostitution". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4040:D9E:CACE:C4F5:193F:49AB:3CF1 (talk) 02:08, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

@

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 April 2022

SabarishG Warrior (talk) 17:35, 26 April 2022 (UTC)The Vanniyar Community is compromised of Kandar. Padaiyatchi , Agnikula Kshariya and Palli subcastes  and they have Many Pattam ( Posts ) Like Reddy , Nayakar in chennai, Vandaiyar , devar, Kandar Mallar . They fall in the Kshatriya Category and Owned half of the land in TamilNadu on 1960's . To read more about vanniyar there many inscriptions and Archeological Evidences to prove the abnormal capabilities of Vanniyar Kings and War Skills in the war and Chola Kingdom was able to capture

The Main Occupation of the Community is to work in Army as Army Chief of Chola and Pallavas. In Chola all the Army and Navy Chiefs were Padaiyatchi and the word Padai + AAtchi= PadaiAtchi which is reffered to as Army Chief, The Vanniyar community has its own Welfare Associations which is the richest Association in South India as the kings donated a huge Land and Money for welfare of the community with Approximately SIX Lakh Crores Indian Rupees(80 Billion USD). The majority of the Donors were Chengavaraya Nayakar and Many Others philanthropists of the community donated as Thousands of acres . The President of India has approved the bill for Vanniyar Kula Khatriyas Trusts and Management board

https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/chennai/2018/dec/14/vanniyar-trusts-mgmt-bill-gets-president-nod-1911304.html

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:55, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Domestic Terrorist

Domestic Terrorist Veerappan was a Vanniyar. Please add him under the notable people list. Here is the citation. https://www.deccanherald.com/amp/content/329376/pmk-projects-veerappan-icon-jaya.html 103.158.244.171 (talk) 01:40, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

@ User: ScottishFinnishRadish, approve this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.158.244.171 (talk) 04:06, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 May 2022

Apart from agriculture, Vanniyars practiced prostitution as an occupation. Here is an excerpt from a reliable source. "The mendicant Pandārams, who are recruited from various classes, wear the lingam, and do not abstain from eating flesh. Many villages have a Pandāram as the priest of the shrine of the village deity, who is frequently a Palli who has become a Pandāram by donning the lingam. The females are said to live, in some cases, by prostitution."

Source link: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/42996/42996-h/42996-h.htm

Here Palli is another name of Vanniyar and it has been verified  in this wiki article multiple times

Now coming to change I would want to make is a sentence in Current status section

X : Traditionally, most Vanniyars are agricultural labourers but they are increasingly benefiting from political influence and organisation and they now own 50 per cent of the lands of the traditional landowners. Y : Traditionally, most Vanniyars are agricultural laborers and prostitutes but they are increasingly benefiting from political influence and organisation and they now own 50 per cent of the lands of the traditional landowners. 103.158.244.171 (talk) 05:28, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: "In some cases" != "are labourers and prostitutes". ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:43, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 May 2022

Domestic Terrorist Veerappan was a Vanniyar. Please add him under the notable people list. Here is the citation. https://www.deccanherald.com/amp/content/329376/pmk-projects-veerappan-icon-jaya.html 2409:4040:D8F:2758:FEA6:33E4:7149:434B (talk) 00:51, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: They have to be notable enough for a Wikipedia article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:12, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

He is a notable enough. He has a damn Wikipedia page - Veerappan. At one point of time he was the most wanted criminal in India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4040:D8F:2758:FEA6:33E4:7149:434B (talk) 05:23, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 July 2022

Auto Sankar not belonging to vanniyar caste so kindly remove his name from notable people on vanniyar caste.He is under senguntha mudhaliar caste. Thanigainathan Mohanasundaram (talk) 08:18, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Please remove his name under vanniyar Thanigainathan Mohanasundaram (talk) 08:19, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 08:48, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 August 2022

Vanniyar 's are related to pallava and chola dynasty,

Vanniyar 's are related to pallava and chola dynasty Alexa sande (talk) 18:32, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Vahnikula Kshatriyas

Vahnikula Kshatriyas cannot be Shudras, western can write anything, they invaded, looted and called Indians beggars and snake charmers. If proper research is done and if the birth details are analysed by a qualified astrologer or any astrology app, we can see that this community belongs to Kshatriya varna, we have to be born in that varna, nobody can raise themselves to higher varnas. We request Wikipedia to analyze and edit this topic. 223.237.237.202 (talk) 14:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

wrong information

that'history fake real history 176.203.67.145 (talk) 23:07, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

vanniyan

vanniyars not sudhra category Tamil Nadu is kshakthiriya category only vanniyars 37.186.38.78 (talk) 23:27, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Vanniyarkula Kshatriya or Agnikula Kshatriya

This is wrong information spread against our Vanniyarkula Kshatriya Community. Vellala Community People stop this type of bullshit behaviour. Why Semi protect our community andculture page. 2A00:5400:E338:978F:6957:3084:45A7:8E16 (talk) 14:56, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

False information

The whole page is false information. Not a single line is according bto historicak data. 128.106.160.45 (talk) 08:54, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Why no action has been taken on previous edit request?

Why there is a radio silence on this talk page? I am sure people with edit access are lurking over here. Please review my last edit request and incorporate it in the article. 24thHusbandofDraupathi (talk) 08:44, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Please keep patience, it is only 6 days since you filed your request. There is a huge backlog and reviewing edits take time. The oldest EC edit request was filed 23 days ago, and the oldest overall edit request was filed 178 days ago. By comparison, 6 days is nothing. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 11:35, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 November 2022

I want to change X to Y

X : During the growth of Tamil Nadu's economy, the Vanniyars have mostly stuck with agriculture, buying up the lands of erstwhile landlords who were moving to urban areas

Y:"Vanniyars have been the main beneficiaries of land transfers by the upper castes such as Reddiars, Naidus and Mudaliyars, consequent on the migration of their members to the urban areas; Vanniyars, who seldom owned houses in upper caste streets until a few years ago - reflecting the spatial pattern of the traditional social hierarchy - have of late been proud owners of such houses because of sale and other transfers by the upper castes "

Y gives more details from which caste people Vanniyars bought the land

I am adding the source https://www.thehindu.com/other/article30245810.ece/amp/ 24thHusbandofDraupathi (talk) 05:35, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Your requested edit would introduce a copyright violation to the page, as it is directly taken from your proposed source. Please rephrase it in your own words if you would like to move forward with this edit. —Sirdog (talk) 05:13, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

@ User:Sirdog, I have rephrased the "Y" statement. Please look below and make that change

X: During the growth of Tamil Nadu's economy, the Vanniyars have mostly stuck with agriculture, buying up the lands of erstwhile landlords who were moving to urban areas

Y : "Upper castes Reddiars, Naidus, and Mudaliyars transferred their land holdings to Vanniyars as they moved to urban areas. Vanniyars, until then, barely owned houses in the upper-caste neighborhood — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.98.63.84 (talk) 03:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done Thank you for your contributions. Note that in the event another editor with extended-confirmed permissions reverts this edit for any reason you may not create another edit request to re-insert it or make any change related to this edit. Per the sanctions notice at the top of this page, you will be forced to have a consensus discussion with whichever editor performed the reversion. Any edit requests that attempt to bypass this will be automatically closed. —Sirdog (talk) 04:00, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Vaniyar sangam formed by Guru

Vaniyar sangam formed by ""Kaadu vetti maavaeeran J.Guru nathar"" 106.211.196.26 (talk) 01:16, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Pallis/Vanniyars were RULERS OF SOUTH TAMILNADU

Please add the fact that Pallis were servants of Vellalars. Here is the excerpt from "Castes and Tribes of Southern India Vol. VI-P to S" : " After the fall of the Pallava dynasty, the Pallis became agricultural servants under the Vellalars, and it is only since the advent of British rule that they have begun to assert their claims to a higher position" Link : https://indianculture.gov.in/rarebooks/castes-and-tribes-southern-india-vol-vi-p-s

@ User:ScottishFinnishRadish, please consider this request — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.158.244.149 (talk) 12:02, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Courtesy ping to @User:ScottishFinnishRadish, as the IP's ping was not send because it was malformed. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 15:17, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not familiar enough with the topic area or sourcing peculiarities to be comfortable making that edit. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:14, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

@User:ScottishFinnishRadish , how it can be edited then? Only admins have edit access to this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.158.244.149 (talk) 01:12, October 17, 2022 (UTC)

It is not just admins who can edit the page, anyone who has the extended confirmed user right can edit the page. However this is a contentious topic so I think knowledgable input would be ideal before making any changes. @Sitush: I hope you don't mind me pinging you but I know you have experience in this topic area and have contributed a good bit to this page in the past, can you weigh in on this? - Aoidh (talk) 03:09, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

I know there's recently been some discussion about using Colonial era sources in this case but I for one think that there is scope for using them as long as it is mentioned where the information comes from. I will make the change. Also I am almost certain Thurston was not presenting evidence for the link of Palli with Pallava, so that might not be a good idea to mention. C1MM (talk) 03:37, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

@User:C1MM, Thurston is not even making a hint that Pallis, who are Shudras, are related to Pallavas. What he has instead noted down is the fact that Pallis's status was reduced to the servant of Vellalas after the fall of Pallavas. I think this should be a verifiable historical fact as similar records on change in social status has been verified for other castes in Southern India.

Thanks, even @User:C1MM has edited this page in the past. I urge them to make this edit

Vellals are the unpaid slaves of Vanniyars. ErKJeeva (talk) 16:19, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Need credible academic information on Vanniyars

we have to work more towards practical sources and can listen to the original subject members to find more clear and credible information. Pudhuvalluvan (talk) 11:07, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Shudra communities almost exclusively included in OBC/BC list across India. Vanniyars are included in MBC list which is subset of OBC list . Where are you getting at? 24thHusbandofDraupathi (talk) 14:17, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Vanniyar are real kings

vanniyar are born from fire real warriors agnipuran book of 5th century explains about orgin of vanniyar cholas and pallavas from vanniyar community there surname of suryakula kshatriyas and chandrakula kshatriyas, vanniyar are real warriors yellow and red there colours cholas flags are also yellow and red tiger flag they are real cholas, bothidarmar a pallavas prince as vanniyar S. DHAYANITHI (talk) 14:40, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi, May I know why did you delete the consensus from this talk page? 1 Kautilyalundit (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Honest question - Are you implying Vanniyars are not human beings and they belong to different species? Which species directly originated/evolved from fire? Can you cite a scientific source? 24thHusbandofDraupathi (talk) 00:46, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Panthal mutti palli and Arasa palli

There are two divisions among vanniyars around Salem region unlike single collective name padayatchi in Thanjavur area.

Its notable that arasa palli and panthal mutti palli( who maintains padayachi as surname) dont marry within each other as each consider themselves higher than the other.

Below text from source : https://www.gutenberg.org/files/42996/42996-h/42996-h.htm#

"the Pallis derive the name from panda muttu, or touching the pandal, in reference to the pile of marriage pots reaching to the top of the pandal. The lowest pot is decorated with figures of elephants and horses. At a marriage among the Pandamuttu Pallis, the bride and bridegroom, in token of their Kshatriya descent, are seated on a raised dais, which represents a simhāsanam or throne"

Pudhuvalluvan (talk) 11:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@Pudhuvalluvan That source is Thurston, which you now recognise to be unreliable. Even if it wasn't unreliable, we couldn't use a > 100 year-old source to support a statement of where a community currently resides. - Sitush (talk) 12:43, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Caste census

I know that there have been various legal rulings regarding reservation issues since the agitation of 2020, including at least one Supreme Court ruling against the TN government. Has the caste census which we say was "forced" upon the TN government actually happened yet? Has the Covid pandemic slowed progress on it? Will it ever happen? Is it all a bit vague? - Sitush (talk) 12:22, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Will it be useful https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/sc-strikes-down-vanniyar-quota-in-tamil-nadu-101648706392369.html? Kautilyalundit (talk) 14:25, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilyalundit Thanks, but no. As I said, I am aware of the Supreme Court ruling. It is the caste census that interests me because at present we are using Rudolph's dodgy extrapolation from the 1931 census. It would be useful to have something more concrete. - Sitush (talk) 14:47, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, I understood. Kautilyalundit (talk) 14:52, 28 March 2023 (UTC)