Talk:Vanniyar/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Vanniar kula kshathriyar

vanniar and vanniyar can be merged together as both terms are used interchangeably. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.6.139.11 (talk • contribs) 17:07, 22 October 2006

The content of the two was nearly identical, so I redirected vanniar to this article. Picaroon9288 17:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

can change the picture...

Is it necessary to put veerappan picture to say that he was a vanniar? The main picture can be replaed by with "agni kundam" wich is used as the symbol for vanniarsMoulee 23:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Moulee

the same picture is used for "veerappan" topic also. please change the picture.

Edit request from Rathinakumar.V, 15 June 2011

R.Margabandhu.B.A.,B.L., Advocate, Former Ex.M.P Rajya Sabha, Former Chairman, Bar Council of Tamil Nadu and Pondy, he delivers speech in United Nations Organization during his M.P tenure, and he is first Vanniyar who deliver speech in UN.

Rathinakumar.V (talk) 10:56, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. GaneshBhakt (talk) 14:44, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Vanniyars - Are they kshatriyas or are they not? An unbiased discussion required based on in-depth reading of recent academic publications on this topic by Prof Alf Hilebeitel who has expertise on this subject of varna and kshatriya varna in particular and especially with reference to prevalence of fire origin myths of khsatriyas all over India in his work "Rethinking India's Oral and Classical Epic - Darupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits". Kindly read Chapter 13 titled " The Myth of Agnivamsa" pp 439 to pp475(Oxford University Press: Rethinking India's Oral and Classical Epics - Draupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits. Alf Hiltebeitel. 1999). The online link is being provided below along with an article adopting the contrary position.

Read these two resources. Judge for yourself on the depth of scholarship, the primary ethnographic information, the secondary and tertiary resources used by these two authors. Think this topic out and comment without bias. Check as to which of these articles is a modern academic document and which is a superficial commentary. Kindly do proceed with the notion that either or both the articles could be correct. Then proceed to understand and subsequently assess the information with the cited sources of information. Verify the accuracy and bias in every conclusion - sift the specious conclusions from the academically sound ones. Differentiate academic conclusions from biases and discuss these threadbare. Do record your conclusions after this thorough exercise.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1917/19170400.htm

Please put correct information in wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.105.168.2 (talk) 21:50, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

That article only says that they are OBC, not Shudra. However, I have removed kshatriya from the infobox anyway, as all claims of varna status need highly reliable sources (i.e., modern, academic documents, not just opinion or ancient religious texts). I will try to add some info about them being OBC. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:57, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 March 2012

94.3.75.154 (talk) 19:54, 9 March 2012 (UTC) rajaliyar is also a sub caste of vanniyar, the people of this sub-caste originate in kumarachi, cuddalore district

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Please also provide exact details of the text you want to change or add. Thanks. Begoon ^talk 00:50, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Aggressive pruning

I would like to add a note about the dubious scholarship of P Radhakrishnan, MIDS who claims to be a sociologist but whose comments on anthropological issues lack depth and adequate research be it secondary or tertiary sources. He has done no ethnographic work on this community unlike the in-depth work by Prof Alf Hitebeitel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.202.132.43 (talk) 14:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I have now cut the article by over 60% from its height back in June. Everything I cut was either unsourced or the given sourced didn't meet the reliable sources guidelines. I also rearranged the article, removed inappropriate external links, and made other minor fixes. Now, I'm sure that some of the information that I removed can be verified by reliable sources. If so, please provide those sources and suggested edits; if you don't know how to format everything, that's fine, as I can help with proper formatting.

One other minor note--in the history section, there are 5 sources that don't have full information--they're either just the author's name or just the book's title. I need someone who actually knows which texts are being referred to to complete those citations. If they can't be completed, that information may also need to be removed as unsourced if there's not even the minimum necessary amount of info to verify the quality and existence of the source. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:19, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

You may find the Vanniyar caste listed as the 26th in its full name (Vannia Kula Kshatriya)(Please re-instate the term Kshatriya in vanniyars are the only kshathriyas caste in tamilnadu.

Whoever has made this above request of adding the word kshatriya appears to have made an emotional appeal. We need to think on our own. Such requests seem emotional. We need academically accurate information and not emotional appeals. If the conclusion is right. We need not shirk. If it is inaccurate we should not hesitate to reject it. Read the link given below for some very critical information on this topic. Analyze it and conclude for your self. It has a heavy dose of Anthropology as it is from an Anthropologist specializing on varna and religion in India.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false

I am an anthropologist and am referring another source - "The People of India" series by Anthropological Survey of India. Please refer the link below and then read up the entire article.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=xBQwAQAAIAAJ&q=vanniyakula+kshatriya&dq=vanniyakula+kshatriya&source=bl&ots=PlhcAemsj3&sig=KZvL6KDNSQHIWl_is1-KIWbFF-0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dIkUUPXaDIiyrAfQzIHoCg&ved=0CGIQ6AEwCA

If you take a look at the MBC list, there are so many castes which are not untouchable castes in the list. For eg, 1.Ambalakarar, 9.Isaivellalar, 13.Kongu Chettiar 33.Sozhia Chetty 35.Thottia Naicker so on.

Similarly, if you take a look at the Denotified Community (DNCs) list: http://www.tn.gov.in/departments/denotifiedlist.htm

You can see so many martial communities of tamil nadu listed here. The reason they were included in the DNC list is a separate article in itself! Many of them were historically warriors and rulers and later neglected and subjugated due to numerous regime changes, just like the vanniyars!

I can give you tons of proofs for the above statement but just for want of time, I am holding back. Just do a simple 'google book' search on vanniyars or pallis and you will come across several books on the subject by esteemed authors.

Please begin by reading "Castes and Tribes of South India" by Edgar Thurston and K. Rangachari, the most authoritative book on the subject. Link:

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Erin3nkU3ZUC&pg=PA13&dq=palli+%2B+edgar+thurston&hl=en&ei=PsGVTszBAYTYrQf_juXBBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

It is to be noted that Mr.Thurston was a british officer on duty and his views were neutral and without any caste bias.

There are also so many archaeology publications published by the Government itself which throws light on the ancient and medieval tamil society (But you would not find online copies of them).

so my humble request to you is kindly ignore the hate mongers and help people who have knowledge but no editing skills. And next time someone talks about 'Shudra', ask them to go through the state government's SC list (link give below):

http://www.tn.gov.in/gorders/adtw/adtw1773-e.htm

Thanks for your time and patient hearing! Peace Kalingarayar (talk) 16:47, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I've rewritten the "current status" section to add this info from the Tamil Nadu list. Currently, the article does not call them Sudra or Shudra anywhere, so I think we're fine on that account. If you have other sources, we can add them, although we have to be sure that they meet or reliable sources guidelines. I don't remember for sure, but I don't think Thurston qualifies; in fact, there is a growing feeling among many people editing in this area that, whenever possible, we want to stop using the British colonial sources. The truth is that most of them aren't even slightly neutral--they rarely investigated themselves, and instead just repeated what the group they favored told them. This is not a 100% consensus, but something that has been brewing on many different caste articles. We do still use some of the British colonial works, but when we do, are trying to be sure that we are clear that it's just one person's opinion, and it's dated. It is much much better for us to use modern scholarship, especially anthropological/scientific/textual analysis--i.e., not just some person writing on a website or weak journal that Class X was the best and everyone respected what wonderful warriors the were. Let me know if there are other things that you think need to be changed. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:34, 19 October 2011 (UTC). You are right 'Qwyrxian', we need to be academically right. Please read the link below. Absolutely academic and authentic. It is undoubtedly an in-depth anthropological and ethnographic work.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false Kindly analyze it in-depth and take time to understand.

The list of castes in tamilnadu is published by Government. According to this State Government Published reference. Vanniyar is short form for vanniya kula kshatriya" There is painted murals in Tamilnady Government Archeology Department showning Vanniyar puranam. There are Dance dramas in rural Tamilnadu called "vanni puranam" enacting the origin of Vanniyars.

Some Nonbeleivers and people born of the dancing class hate Vanniyars. When British rule took over India the Vanniyar Landlords were called Denotified community/OBC in revenge for their fight against subjugation. Then they were called Backward Class by a Nadar /vaisya chief minister. Then they were called Backward class By a DG chief minister Then they went down economically fought and asked for Most Backward status because of backbone less chief ministers not fighting for Cauvery waters to feed their lands. This does annul the fact that they are warriors infact these are all proof why they were once Rulers that face persecution by the change in the ruling party and their guilt and inferiority complex about their caste activities.

Why does a Japanese man that has no business /visit to India edit vanniyar history? ask him to take his Sony camera and take picture at Sri Vaitheeswaran Koil,in Tamilnadu if he is noble. Never mind if he support Geisha like rulers. Vanniyars are the birth opposite Geisha clan for this Japanese editor.

There was one Chief minister Half Kerala Brahman and Half Nair (naga kula kshatriya) who happened to be BRahmakshatriya who recognised Vannniyars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.80.213 (talk) 19:15, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Develop this article

Hi to all Vanniyar. Please develop your article. Vanniyars are mostly agriculturist and they are the descendents of pallava rulers.

Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas are also called Vahini Kula Kshatriyas or Agnikula Kshatriyas. The Fire origin myth which is characteristic of all agnivanshis or agnikulas of India, as per Alf Hiltebeitel, who has studied myths and religion among kshatriyas of various parts of India among others, has traced the roots of the Fire Origin Myth of agnivanshis in other parts of India to those of the Vanniyars. The Agnivanshis of other parts of India seem to have borrowed the core myth from Vanniyars and appear to have fashioned their Fire origin myth after the Fire origin myths of the Vanniyars. Alf Hiltebetels has concluded thus after extensive research on the Agnivanshis or Agnikulas. The book is titled Rethinking India's oral and classical epics: Draupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits and the relevant chapter is titled "Fire Origin myth". Alf Hiltebeitel is a Professor of anthroplogy at George Washington University and specialises in Religion with extensive work on India Religion. The above book is published by Chicago University Press. He has done extensive work on Mahabharatha and other aspects of Indian Religion and Varna.

This forum will accept the above if the right references are provided, please. Kindly mention the source of the above information please - be it historical or anthropological. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.202.135.129 (talk) 00:05, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 August 2012

It appears that the people who have the exclusive rights to edit this article do not seem interested in reading up Anthropological sources cited. Are they serious about editing an article of this nature or are they exhibiting 'dog in the manger' attitude.

Antropological survey of India has documented this community in people of India Series on various states of India

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=xBQwAQAAIAAJ&q=vanniyakula+kshatriya&dq=vanniyakula+kshatriya&source=bl&ots=PlhcAemsj3&sig=KZvL6KDNSQHIWl_is1-KIWbFF-0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dIkUUPXaDIiyrAfQzIHoCg&ved=0CGIQ6AEwCA

Another anthropological source is Prof. Alf Hiltebeitels Book

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false

If editors are serious they need to read up these references and discus them and not simply shirk from doing so.

14.99.177.89 (talk) 08:53, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Please state changes in an X to Y format. FloBo A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 09:20, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 October 2012

i want to edit

permit me Terrorskcud (talk) 02:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

That's not how edit requests work. If there is something specific you want to change, explain that here. If not, you'll have to wait until you are a confirmed editor (that takes 10 edits to other articles, and 4 days). Please note that either way, you'll need to provide reliable sources that support the changes you want to make. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:38, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 October 2012

please remove the contents under the title of "Historical status" because it is added with vandalism thru wrong reference bala (talk) 15:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. The references in that section are both books published by university presses, which usually makes them reliable sources. What specific reason do you have that those sources do not meet WP:RS, our reliable sources guidelines? Please note that just because you disagree, or you don't like what they say is not a valid reason. Also, if you know of other sources that make different claims, please present those, as it may be possible to include more than one perspective, assuming all of them meet WP:RS. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 December 2012

Vanniyar, also transliterated Vanniar, are a large social group in South India. They primarily live in Tamil Nadu where they speak Tamil, while in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka they speak their native Dravidian languages namely, Telugu and Kannada respectively. Contents [hide]

   1 Origin
   2 Historical references
   3 History
   4 Caste titles
   5 Demographic spread
       5.1 Important cities
   6 Vanniyar in Sri Lanka
   7 Vanniyar outside India
   8 Vanniyar Charities
   9 Prominent Vanniyars
   10 See also
   11 References

1 Origin

The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan.

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar.

2 Historical references

The Titles," Indicating Authority,Bravery and Superiority," assumed by them are Nayakar,Varma,Padaiyachi (Head of an Army), Kandar, Chera, Chola, Pandya, Sambuvarays, Kadavarayas, Kalingarayas, Mazhavarayas, Samattiyars, Udaiyars, Kondiyars, Nainars, Sozhaganars, Munaiarayas and Kachirayas,Goundan and Kavandan. Some say that they belong to Chola race,and that, as such, they should be called as Chembians. They also bear the Sozhaganars title indicating their chola origin.

The Zamindars of Pichavaram, UdayarPalayam, Ariyalur, M Parur, Thiruvidaichuram, Manimangalam and Sivagiri are all Vanniya By Caste.

In North East Sri Lanka,Triconamalee are ruled by Vanniyans and Vanniyachi's.

A well known verse of Irattayar in praise of Kanchipuram Ekambaranathaswmi refers to the Pallava King as being of the Sambu Race. The latter Descendants of the Pallava apparently tookc Sambuvarayar and Kadavarayar Titles.

3 History

- From 240 AD to 943 AD - Pallava Empire

- From 943 AD to 1313 AD - Chola Empire

- From 1278 AD to 1456 AD - Kandavas, Sambuvarayar, Kadavarayar dynasty

- From 1456 AD to 1798 AD - Kalingarayar, Naicker Dynasty as poligar, chiefians under feudral rule of vijiyanagar empire and arcot nawab

- From 1798 AD to 1947 AD - British Rule, but most of the villages & towns are under the direct rule of Vanniar Gounder, Naicker, Reddiar and Padayachi zamindars. - - From 1947 AD to still date - Tamil Nadu Toilers Party, Common Wheel Party and PMK dominate parts of North Tamil Nadu in electoral junctions

4 Caste titles

The Vanniyars were known as Vanniakula Kshatriyas and Padayatchis. Depending upon the status, the members of the Vanniyar caste use titles such as Padayatchi, Gounder, Naicker/Nayagar, Kander/Kandar, Palli in Tamil Nadu, in Karnataka they are called Tigala or Thigilaru with a common suffix of Gowda and Nayakar. In Andhra Pradesh, Vanniars are usually known as Pillai, Agnikula, Kshatriya, Vanne Kapu or Naik. There are 92 different names or sub caste/sub titles given for Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas. This can be seen in the book written by A.K.Natarajan of Vanniyar sangam. The sub caste like Gounder, Naicker, Kandar, Padaiyaachi, Raju, Palli e.t.c.

5 Demographic spread

Vanniyars live in an area where three South Indian states intersects. They currently predominate in northern Tamil Nadu)whereas sizable numbers are found in southern Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. In these latter Indian states they are in sizeable mass primarily due to migration of other sects from outside and vice versa.

In terms of population they are the most populated community in Tamil Nadu (Both as Vanniars) and Pondichery.

5.1 Important cities

Important cities are Chennai,Chengalpattu, Kancheepuram, Bangalore, Kolar, Salem, Thiruchirapalli, Thanjavur, Kumbakonam, Vellore, Cuddalore, Virudhachalam, Thiruvannamalai, Dharmapuri, Krishnagiri, Villupuram, Tindivanam, Gingee, Nellore, Thirupathi, Jayankondam, Pondicherry,Mayiladuthurai,Vedaranyam ,Ariyalur and Nagapattinam.

6 Vanniyar in Sri Lanka

   Main article: Vanniar (Sri Lanka)

Vanniar or Vannia is a title of a feudal chief in medieval Sri Lanka who ruled as a tribute payer to any number of local kingdoms. It was also recored as that of a name of a caste amongst Sri Lankan Tamils iin the Vanni District of northern Sri Lanka during the early 1900’s. It is no longer used as a name of a caste or as chiefs in Sri Lanka. There are number of origin theories for the feudal chiefs as well as the caste as coming from modern Tamil Nadu state or as an indigenous formation. (see Pandara Vannian)

7 Vanniyar outside India

Vanniyar also migrated to South Africa, Malaysia, Singapore, Seychelles, Mauritius and Fiji as part of the great Tamil diaspora. Variant Vanniyar titles such as Govendar, Naicker and Padayachee are used amongst their descendants.

8 Vanniyar Charities

The Vanniyars may be linked in tradition to the vanni tree (prosopis spicigera), a holy tree in Hindu tradition.Kulasekhara,one of the early travancore kings,and one of the most renowned alwars reverenced by the srivaishnava community belongs to them.Vanniyars celebrate his anniversary in Parthasarathy temple Chennai even now.The Vanniyars have the right to present the most important camphor offering of the Mylapore Kapaleeswarar Temple.The Ekambaranathar Temple at Kanchipuram built by them.Likewise the Chidambaram Nataraja Temple is founded by Swetavarman,a Pallava king. Prabhubreaker (talk) 15:46, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 18:22, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 December 2012

Vanniyar, also transliterated Vanniar, are a large social group in South India. They primarily live in Tamil Nadu where they speak Tamil, while in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka they speak their native Dravidian languages namely, Telugu and Kannada respectively.

Contents

   1 Origin
   2 Historical references
   3 History
   4 Caste titles
   5 Demographic spread
       5.1 Important cities
   6 Vanniyar in Sri Lanka
   7 Vanniyar outside India
   8 Vanniyar Charities
   9 Prominent Vanniyars
  

1 Origin

The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan.

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar.

2 Historical references

The Titles," Indicating Authority,Bravery and Superiority," assumed by them are Nayakar,Varma,Padaiyachi (Head of an Army), Kandar, Chera, Chola, Pandya, Sambuvarays, Kadavarayas, Kalingarayas, Mazhavarayas, Samattiyars, Udaiyars, Kondiyars, Nainars, Sozhaganars, Munaiarayas and Kachirayas,Goundan and Kavandan. Some say that they belong to Chola race,and that, as such, they should be called as Chembians. They also bear the Sozhaganars title indicating their chola origin.

The Zamindars of Pichavaram, UdayarPalayam, Ariyalur, M Parur, Thiruvidaichuram, Manimangalam and Sivagiri are all Vanniya By Caste.

In North East Sri Lanka,Triconamalee are ruled by Vanniyans and Vanniyachi's.

A well known verse of Irattayar in praise of Kanchipuram Ekambaranathaswmi refers to the Pallava King as being of the Sambu Race. The latter Descendants of the Pallava apparently tookc Sambuvarayar and Kadavarayar Titles.

3 History

- From 240 AD to 943 AD - Pallava Empire

- From 943 AD to 1313 AD - Chola Empire

- From 1278 AD to 1456 AD - Kandavas, Sambuvarayar, Kadavarayar dynasty

- From 1456 AD to 1798 AD - Kalingarayar, Naicker Dynasty as poligar, chiefians under feudral rule of vijiyanagar empire and arcot nawab

- From 1798 AD to 1947 AD - British Rule, but most of the villages & towns are under the direct rule of Vanniar Gounder, Naicker, Reddiar and Padayachi zamindars. - - From 1947 AD to still date - Tamil Nadu Toilers Party, Common Wheel Party and PMK dominate parts of North Tamil Nadu in electoral junctions

4 Caste titles

The Vanniyars were known as Vanniakula Kshatriyas and Padayatchis. Depending upon the status, the members of the Vanniyar caste use titles such as Padayatchi, Gounder, Naicker/Nayagar, Kander/Kandar, Palli in Tamil Nadu, in Karnataka they are called Tigala or Thigilaru with a common suffix of Gowda and Nayakar. In Andhra Pradesh, Vanniars are usually known as Pillai, Agnikula, Kshatriya, Vanne Kapu or Naik. There are 92 different names or sub caste/sub titles given for Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas. This can be seen in the book written by A.K.Natarajan of Vanniyar sangam. The sub caste like Gounder, Naicker, Kandar, Padaiyaachi, Raju, Palli e.t.c.

5 Demographic spread

Vanniyars live in an area where three South Indian states intersects. They currently predominate in northern Tamil Nadu)whereas sizable numbers are found in southern Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. In these latter Indian states they are in sizeable mass primarily due to migration of other sects from outside and vice versa.

In terms of population they are the most populated community in Tamil Nadu (Both as Vanniars) and Pondichery.

5.1 Important cities

Important cities are Chennai,Chengalpattu, Kancheepuram, Bangalore, Kolar, Salem, Thiruchirapalli, Thanjavur, Kumbakonam, Vellore, Cuddalore, Virudhachalam, Thiruvannamalai, Dharmapuri, Krishnagiri, Villupuram, Tindivanam, Gingee, Nellore, Thirupathi, Jayankondam, Pondicherry,Mayiladuthurai,Vedaranyam ,Ariyalur and Nagapattinam.

6 Vanniyar in Sri Lanka

   Main article: Vanniar (Sri Lanka)

Vanniar or Vannia is a title of a feudal chief in medieval Sri Lanka who ruled as a tribute payer to any number of local kingdoms. It was also recored as that of a name of a caste amongst Sri Lankan Tamils iin the Vanni District of northern Sri Lanka during the early 1900’s. It is no longer used as a name of a caste or as chiefs in Sri Lanka. There are number of origin theories for the feudal chiefs as well as the caste as coming from modern Tamil Nadu state or as an indigenous formation. (see Pandara Vannian)

7 Vanniyar outside India

Vanniyar also migrated to South Africa, Malaysia, Singapore, Seychelles, Mauritius and Fiji as part of the great Tamil diaspora. Variant Vanniyar titles such as Govendar, Naicker and Padayachee are used amongst their descendants.

8 Vanniyar Charities

The Vanniyars may be linked in tradition to the vanni tree (prosopis spicigera), a holy tree in Hindu tradition.Kulasekhara,one of the early travancore kings,and one of the most renowned alwars reverenced by the srivaishnava community belongs to them.Vanniyars celebrate his anniversary in Parthasarathy temple Chennai even now.The Vanniyars have the right to present the most important camphor offering of the Mylapore Kapaleeswarar Temple.The Ekambaranathar Temple at Kanchipuram built by them.Likewise the Chidambaram Nataraja Temple is founded by Swetavarman,a Pallava king.

9 Prominent Vanniyars

   Kaduvetti Guru, Vanniar Sangam Leader, MLA Jayamkondam
   S. Ramadoss, Founder, Pattali Makkal Katchi (PMK)
   S. S. Ramasamy Padayachi, Founder of the Workers Toilers Party

Prabhubreaker (talk) 18:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. TBrandley 19:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 26 December 2012

Vanniyars are the kshatriya caste they belongs to agnivamshis they today they are very orthodox and landlords 122.181.8.114 (talk) 17:25, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Rivertorch (talk) 19:03, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 February 2013

ORIGIN The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan.

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar

HISTORICAL REFERENCES The Titles," Indicating Authority,Bravery and Superiority," assumed by them are Nayakar,Varma,Padaiyachi (Head of an Army), Kandar, Chera, Chola, Pandya, Sambuvarays, Kadavarayas, Kalingarayas, Mazhavarayas, Samattiyars, Udaiyars, Kondiyars, Nainars, Sozhaganars, Munaiarayas and Kachirayas,Goundan and Kavandan. Some say that they belong to Chola race,and that, as such, they should be called as Chembians. They also bear the Sozhaganars title indicating their chola origin.

The Zamindars of Pichavaram, UdayarPalayam, Ariyalur, M Parur, Thiruvidaichuram, Manimangalam and Sivagiri are all Vanniya By Caste.Caste titles

The Vanniyars were known as Vanniakula Kshatriyas and Padayatchis. Depending upon the status, the members of the Vanniyar caste use titles such as Padayatchi, Gounder, Naicker/Nayagar, Kander/Kandar, Palli in Tamil Nadu, in Karnataka they are called Tigala or Thigilaru with a common suffix of Gowda and Nayakar. In Andhra Pradesh, Vanniars are usually known as Pillai, Agnikula, Kshatriya, Vanne Kapu or Naik. There are 92 different names or sub caste/sub titles given for Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas. This can be seen in the book written by A.K.Natarajan of Vanniyar sangam. The sub caste like Gounder, Naicker, Kandar, Padaiyaachi, Raju, Palli e.t.c.

In North East Sri Lanka,Triconamalee are ruled by Vanniyans and Vanniyachi's.

A well known verse of Irattayar in praise of Kanchipuram Ekambaranathaswmi refers to the Pallava King as being of the Sambu Race. The latter Descendants of the Pallava apparently tookc Sambuvarayar and Kadavarayar Titles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tridexx (talk • contribs) 06:52, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

You need to provide reliable sources that support your preferred changes. Please note that ancient poetry/epics/religious texts are not reliable sources (or, rather, they're primary sources that we can use only when the meaning is unambiguous and only for exactly, literally, what they say). Qwyrxian (talk) 07:04, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 April 2013

Vanniyar, also transliterated Vanniar, are a large social group in South India. They primarily live in Tamil Nadu where they speak Tamil, while in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka they speak their native Dravidian languages namely, Telugu and Kannada respectively. Contents [hide]

   1 Origin
   2 Historical references
   3 History
   4 Caste titles
   5 Demographic spread
       5.1 Important cities
   6 Vanniyar in Sri Lanka
   7 Vanniyar outside India
   8 Vanniyar Charities
   9 Prominent Vanniyars
   10 See also
   11 References

[edit] Origin

The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan.

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar.

[edit] Historical references

The Titles," Indicating Authority,Bravery and Superiority," assumed by them are Nayakar,Varma,Padaiyachi (Head of an Army), Kandar, Chera, Chola, Pandya, Sambuvarays, Kadavarayas, Kalingarayas, Mazhavarayas, Samattiyars, Udaiyars, Kondiyars, Nainars, Sozhaganars, Munaiarayas and Kachirayas,Goundan and Kavandan. Some say that they belong to Chola race,and that, as such, they should be called as Chembians. They also bear the Sozhaganars title indicating their chola origin.

The Zamindars of Pichavaram, UdayarPalayam, Ariyalur, M Parur, Thiruvidaichuram, Manimangalam and Sivagiri are all Vanniya By Caste.

In North East Sri Lanka,Triconamalee are ruled by Vanniyans and Vanniyachi's.

A well known verse of Irattayar in praise of Kanchipuram Ekambaranathaswmi refers to the Pallava King as being of the Sambu Race. The latter Descendants of the Pallava apparently tookc Sambuvarayar and Kadavarayar Titles.

[edit] History

- From 240 AD to 943 AD - Pallava Empire

- From 943 AD to 1313 AD - Chola Empire

- From 1278 AD to 1456 AD - Kandavas, Sambuvarayar, Kadavarayar dynasty

- From 1456 AD to 1798 AD - Kalingarayar, Naicker Dynasty as poligar, chiefians under feudral rule of vijiyanagar empire and arcot nawab

- From 1798 AD to 1947 AD - British Rule, but most of the villages & towns are under the direct rule of Vanniar Gounder, Naicker, Reddiar and Padayachi zamindars. - - From 1947 AD to still date - Tamil Nadu Toilers Party, Common Wheel Party and PMK dominate parts of North Tamil Nadu in electoral junctions

[edit] Caste titles

The Vanniyars were known as Vanniakula Kshatriyas and Padayatchis. Depending upon the status, the members of the Vanniyar caste use titles such as Padayatchi, Gounder, Naicker/Nayagar, Kander/Kandar, Palli in Tamil Nadu, in Karnataka they are called Tigala or Thigilaru with a common suffix of Gowda and Nayakar. In Andhra Pradesh, Vanniars are usually known as Pillai, Agnikula, Kshatriya, Vanne Kapu or Naik. There are 92 different names or sub caste/sub titles given for Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas. This can be seen in the book written by A.K.Natarajan of Vanniyar sangam. The sub caste like Gounder, Naicker, Kandar, Padaiyaachi, Raju, Palli e.t.c.

[edit] Demographic spread

Vanniyars live in an area where three South Indian states intersects. They currently predominate in northern Tamil Nadu)whereas sizable numbers are found in southern Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. In these latter Indian states they are in sizeable mass primarily due to migration of other sects from outside and vice versa.

In terms of population they are the most populated community in Tamil Nadu (Both as Vanniars) and Pondichery.

[edit] Important cities

Important cities are Chennai,Chengalpattu, Kancheepuram, Bangalore, Kolar, Salem, Thiruchirapalli, Thanjavur, Kumbakonam, Vellore, Cuddalore, Virudhachalam, Thiruvannamalai, Dharmapuri, Krishnagiri, Villupuram, Tindivanam, Gingee, Nellore, Thirupathi, Jayankondam, Pondicherry,Mayiladuthurai,Vedaranyam ,Ariyalur and Nagapattinam.

[edit] Vanniyar in Sri Lanka

   Main article: Vanniar (Sri Lanka)

Vanniar or Vannia is a title of a feudal chief in medieval Sri Lanka who ruled as a tribute payer to any number of local kingdoms. It was also recored as that of a name of a caste amongst Sri Lankan Tamils iin the Vanni District of northern Sri Lanka during the early 1900’s. It is no longer used as a name of a caste or as chiefs in Sri Lanka. There are number of origin theories for the feudal chiefs as well as the caste as coming from modern Tamil Nadu state or as an indigenous formation. (see Pandara Vannian)

[edit] Vanniyar outside India

Vanniyar also migrated to South Africa, Malaysia, Singapore, Seychelles, Mauritius and Fiji as part of the great Tamil diaspora. Variant Vanniyar titles such as Govendar, Naicker and Padayachee are used amongst their descendants.

[edit] Vanniyar Charities

The Vanniyars may be linked in tradition to the vanni tree (prosopis spicigera), a holy tree in Hindu tradition.Kulasekhara,one of the early travancore kings,and one of the most renowned alwars reverenced by the srivaishnava community belongs to them.Vanniyars celebrate his anniversary in Parthasarathy temple Chennai even now.The Vanniyars have the right to present the most important camphor offering of the Mylapore Kapaleeswarar Temple.The Ekambaranathar Temple at Kanchipuram built by them.Likewise the Chidambaram Nataraja Temple is founded by Swetavarman,a Pallava king.

Itvinoth10 (talk) 04:21, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. You appear to have copied and pasted a large number of elements from somewhere (a sandbox?), and I really can't tell what changes you're asking for. Is this supposed to replace or supplement the current content? Whatever the case may be, keep in mind that it needs to be reliably sourced. Rivertorch (talk) 04:58, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 April 2013 - Information Incomplete

Origin: The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan.

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar. Pelanchelian (talk) 08:10, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

You will need to provide reliable sources to verify this information before it can be added to the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:29, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 April 2013

There are lots of data s about the vanniyar missing.

Kindly let me edit this page kathir (talk) 14:07, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but editing this page is currently restricted due to disruption and the addition of unsourced/unverifiable information. Please make a request on this talk page if you would something to be added. Make you sure you give a reliable source. Pol430 talk to me 14:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 30 April 2013

ORIGIN "The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan."

At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas.

In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense.

The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar.

HISTORY

      - From 240 AD to 943 AD - Pallava Empire

- From 943 AD to 1313 AD - Chola Empire

- From 1278 AD to 1456 AD - Kandavas, Sambuvarayar, Kadavarayar dynasty

- From 1456 AD to 1798 AD - Kalingarayar, Naicker Dynasty as poligar, chiefians under feudral rule of vijiyanagar empire and arcot nawab

- From 1798 AD to 1947 AD - British Rule, but most of the villages & towns are under the direct rule of Vanniar Gounder, Naicker, Reddiar and Padayachi zamindars. - - From 1947 AD to still date - Tamil Nadu Toilers Party, Common Wheel Party and PMK dominate parts of North Tamil Nadu in electoral junctions — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tridexx (talk • contribs) 05:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. If you resubmit this request with sources, please take some time to correct the many errors of capitalization, punctuation, spacing, and spelling. You also should indicate whether it is intended to supplement or replace content currently in the article. Rivertorch (talk) 05:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit Request

I am quoting a few paragraphs from the Book 'Draupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits: Rethinking India's Oral and Classical Epics written by Professor Alf Hiltebeitel in the year 1999. Chicago: Chicago University Press. (Reprinted by Oxford University Press at New Delhi in 2001) Dr. Hiltebeitel is a Professor of Anthropology and Religion (Professor of Religion and Human Sciences, Department of Religion to be precise) at The George Washington University Washington. After extensive ethnographic work on the Kshatriyas of India and a thorough research on Kshatriya Varna, he has written on the prevalence of Agnivamsha Myth all over India in the above book in Chapter 13 titled, "The Myth of Agnivamsha"(refer page 439 to page 475). As per Professor Alf Hiltebeitel the Myth of Fire Origin is common to Agnikula Rajputs specifically Chauhans, Chandelas, Pratiharas, Paramaras, Chand Bardai etc. and the Vanniyakulakshatriyas of Tamil Nadu. The claim of Kshatriya varna by the once parvenus is sought to be legitimized by this mythology common to all the above Kshatriya castes/clans. On page 462 Prof Alf Hiltebeitel writes “Insofar as one can trace the Agnikula Myth through north Indian variants and to classical Sanskrit sources ..... trails connect north India to south, Sanskrit sources to Tamil ones, and perhaps north Indian beginnings to earlier south Indian ones. On page 464, Professor Alf Hiltebeitel says "...an inscription from Hottal in Nanded District of Maharashtra, that describes a family of chiefs loyal to the Calukyas of Kalyan in the third quarter to eleventh century. The chiefs style themselves Agnikulas or vahinikulas, and tell the ...story about .... the birth of a great hero from the fire-pit, who....brought back the Homa-dhenu to Agastya..." Please note the mention of Agnikula or Vahinikula in this Nanded inscription in Maharashtra. Further, Professor Hiltebeitel says that "Considering the overlapping complexities and convergences between Chand's version and those of the vanniyars, it is possible that a prototype Agnikula Myth traversed south and north India."(page 468). He further says that (on page 470) "...similarities between the Agnikula origin myths of Chand Bardai and Tamil Vanniyars, which do not rely on Padmagupta for their parallels, and which 'recall', in the Vanniyars case, an earlier south Indian history connected with the Calukyas. He concludes the chapter thus “…Agnikula Myth seems to have southern roots .… the myth would thus seem to have been transmitted northward… - on the ‘origins’ of Agnikula Rajputs.” Narrating the Agnikula Myth of Vanniyakula Kshatriyas he writes “Two demons, Vatapi and Mahi (Entapi), obtained from Brahma the boon of invincibility against everything but fire, which they forgot to include in their request. They ravaged the countryside. Vatapi, swallowed the wind and Mahi the sun. The earth became still and dark. The terrified gods appealed to Brahma, who directed them to ask the Rsi Jambava Mahamuni… to perform a fire sacrifice. Rudra Vanniya Maharaja was thus born from the flames along with a host of armed horsemen. Having destroyed the two demons and released the wind and the sun, this first Vanniyar Governed the country….” The word Vanniyar is derived from this fire origin myth – Vahinikula Kshatriya or Agnikulaksatriya. This is elucidated by Prof Alf Hiltebetiel (on page no 444) when he discusses Nagpur Prashasti (inscriptions in praise of an individual or group etc.) of 1104 pertaining to the Vahini Vamsha or Agnivamsha legends. This legend, he further clarifies, “hints at parity with … Suryavamsa and Chandravamsa”. Thus we have three Kshatriya Vamshas - 'Suryavamsa', 'Chandravamsa' and 'Agnisvamsa' all over India.

The conclusions we could safely draw from the above extracts are (a lot more of related information is available in the above book and is suggested for a serious researcher):

Agnikulas or Agnivamshas are a category of kshatriyas all over India. This category is called vanniyakulakshatriya in Tamil Nadu. The word ‘Vanniya’ has its origin in the Sanskrit word ‘Vahinikula’ and is found as such in Prashastis or inscriptions in Maharashtra. (refer citation provided above). The Vanniyakulakshatriya legend is similar to the Rajput legends and pre-dates the Rajput legend to be considered as the original legend that has moved northward via their Calukya connections and has been adopted and adapted by the other Agnivamsha Kshatriya/Rajput clans. The Kshatriya claim of Vanniya caste is thus obviously older than the 1921 petition to the British Government which did subsequently issue a GO designating the caste as Vanniyakulakshatriya wherein the Government had mandated ‘Vanniyakulakshatriya’ as the name of the caste in all official records. (An extract of this GO is commonly available and has been referred to by another user in the talks section here.) Further caste mythologies or ‘puranas’ do exist for all other castes of Tamil Nadu and of India elucidating their relative status in society. The Vanniyakulakshatriya are also known as Agnikulakshatriyas in Andhra Pradhesh besides being called as Vanniyakulakshatriyas in that state and are a single endogamous group. (A serious researcher may find a lot of information on all castes of India in the Anthropological Survey of India’s ‘People of India’ Volumes. For the castes of South India refer volumes pertaining to Kerala, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradhesh. Thurston also provides information which is dated and can be updated with current research)

My request is:

Please Include the following substantiated information in the Wikipedia Article. In case of any clarification or further information kindly do revert to me. Changes which have been substantiated above and are being suggested for inclusion in this edit request are being listed below. Kindly do the needful.

Explanation for the origin of the name of the caste – Vanniyakulakshatriya. Agnikulas or Agnivamshas are a category of kshatriyas all over India. This category is called vanniyakulakshatriya in Tamil Nadu. The word ‘Vanniyakula’ has its origin in the Sanskrit word ‘Vahinikula’. The Vanniyakulakshatriya legend is similar to the Rajput legends and predates the Rajput legend to be considered as the original legend that has moved northward via their Calukya connections and has been adopted and adapted by the other Agnivamsha Rajput clans. The Kshatriya claim of Vanniya caste is thus obviously older than the 1921 petition to the British Government which did subsequently issue a GO designating the caste as Vanniyakulakshatriya wherein the Government had mandated ‘Vanniyakulakshatriya’ as the name of the caste in all official records. (An extract of this GO is commonly available and has been referred to by another user here.)

The Vanniyakulakshatriya are also known as Agnikulakshatriyas in Andhra Pradhesh besides being called as Vanniyakulakshatriyas in that state and are a single endogamous group. Thanking you all and requesting greater scholarliness from those writing about various castes of Tamil Nadu and India. I am available for any guidance or support with respect to Anthropological and Ethnographic references on any caste of India. Let us promote serious and unbiased write ups on Wikipedia.

For those interested in viewing information about this book online, please refer the following link.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/R/bo3633036.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by MeNaagesh (talk • contribs) 13:07, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

While there seem to be some detailed concerns, I'm more concerned that your overall tone is vastly different than Hiltebeitel's. In what you quote above, he talks about "hints" and "seems to have" and "it is possible" and other such things. He makes very tentative possible similarities in mythologies, while you seem to be stating historical facts. At a bare minimum, we'd need to make our wording far far more tentative than his; and his tentativeness makes me question at all whether this is worth including. But I await the input of others. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:44, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

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I would request any user commenting on Prof Alf Hiltebeitel to read up the book and respond. I am providing a link for any Editor who is serious about right conclusions here.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false

Kindly be very specific about your objections to suggestions and Prof. Alf Hiltebeitel's statements. Respond to each point in detail if objectivity is your concern. What is provided above is a mere glimpse. Reviewers are invited to rephrase and seek consensus on statements where needed from facts provided or further researched from the provided sources or other scholarly sources. An objective rephrasing would be most welcome if it is done with the concerns of an objective scholar.

If we do have detailed concerns let us come out with each of these concerns in detail. The knowledge community also has concerns with such statements by editors. Else, seriousness of wiki editors in this common quest for sharing of knowledge could be questioned with respect to editing wiki articles. The quest is for dissemination of right information. We need to respond elaborately when it comes to specialist information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MeNaagesh (talk • contribs) 14:27, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Kindly also refer the following - IndianAnthro 02:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)MeNaags Prof Alf Hiltebeitel further adds… on page no 470 in this book (Draupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits Rethinking India’s Oral and Classical Epics) “But even without this uncertainty, and with or without speculation on the mythic origins of Calukyas of Badami, we have three reasons to entertain the proposition that the myth of the Agnikula Kshatriyas has a south Indian origin, the cumulative nature of south Indian origin myths of fire-born lineages, the Calukya-Caulukya connection from south to north; and the similarities between Agnikula Origin myths of Chand Bardoi and Tamil Vanniyars which do not rely on Padmagupta for their parallels, and which ‘recall’ in the Vanniyars’ case, an early south Indian history connected with Calukyas.” There is no tentativeness in this statement of Prof Alf Hiltebeitel and he provides the reasons for the proposition that the Agnikula myth has a South Indian Origin. Can we now include this - verbatim or re-phrased? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MeNaagesh (talk • contribs) 02:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Please correct Typographic Error

Please note that this Article has typographic error that misleads. The word Malayman is spelt Malayalam. While Malayalam is a language and the people of this community may speak that as one of their languages, the reference here appears to be to the title or surname Malayman. Kindly do incorporate the necessary correction.IndianAnthro 02:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit Request - Origin Myth - Anthropological Sources

Kindly also refer the following -

Source: Prof Alf Hiltebeitel further adds… on page no 470 in his book (Draupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits Rethinking India’s Oral and Classical Epics) “But even without this uncertainty, and with or without speculation on the mythic origins of Calukyas of Badami, we have three reasons to entertain the proposition that the myth of the Agnikula Kshatriyas has a south Indian origin, the cumulative nature of south Indian origin myths of fire-born lineages, the Calukya-Caulukya connection from south to north; and the similarities between Agnikula Origin myths of Chand Bardoi and Tamil Vanniyars which do not rely on Padmagupta for their parallels, and which ‘recall’ in the Vanniyars’ case, an early south Indian history connected with Calukyas.” There is no tentativeness in this statement of Prof Alf Hiltebeitel and he provides the reasons for the proposition that the Agnikula myth has a South Indian Origin. Can we now include this - verbatim or re-phrased?

What needs to be added to this article is this - Fire-born Kshatriya or Agnikula Kshatriya or Agnivamshas, who have a Fire Origin Myth, as a category are present or are prevalent in both North and South of India. The fire origin Myth of north India seems to have been inspired by the fire origin myths of the Vanniyakula Kshatriya of the South India.

Please do rephrase if you deem appropriate.

IndianAnthro 02:58, 19 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MeNaagesh (talk • contribs)

I appreciate the interest Rivertorch and Qwyrxian evince in editing, semi-protecting and their great attention to adherence to procedures by all other contributors. Great job! A small request - please exercise caution while editing ethnographic articles. All Editors and administrators need to comply with one more very important principle - 'Neutrality point of view'. You have reverted to an earlier version with the reason that the previous revert was 'unexplained removal of sourced content'. This applies to citations 1 & 2 sourced from Kumar, Dharma(1965)and Michael, Adas(1852). Dharma Kumar is a part bureaucrat and part economic historian of India origin whose article seemed to have been written in 1965. This is an ethnographic topic. We have to recognize that knowledge is being updated continuously by scholars all over the world. We cannot ignore recent ethnographic sources such as Professor Alf Hiltebeitel's book on this topic. You could include both the old and new works on this topic - you desired sources and neutral sources and thus display 'neutrality point of view' or risk being perceived as a 'selective editor or administrator'. Kindly add the following point of view too after reading the source. It is well sourced and reasoned as the author, who is an American Anthropologist, a non-colonial and unbiased scholar and has done extensive ethnographic work on this caste and its pertinent varnaand provides adequate reasons for his conclusions.. Kindly note you seem to have deleted the specific varna reference. Could you please care to discuss the reasons here for the point of view adopted by you and for you adherence to selective sources and thus ensure that wiki editors are considered bound by the principle of 'Neutrality point of view'.

Kindly refer the following -

Source: Prof Alf Hiltebeitel further adds… on page no 470 in his book (Draupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits Rethinking India’s Oral and Classical Epics) “But even without this uncertainty, and with or without speculation on the mythic origins of Calukyas of Badami, we have three reasons to entertain the proposition that the myth of the Agnikula Kshatriyas has a south Indian origin, the cumulative nature of south Indian origin myths of fire-born lineages, the Calukya-Caulukya connection from south to north; and the similarities between Agnikula Origin myths of Chand Bardoi and Tamil Vanniyars which do not rely on Padmagupta for their parallels, and which ‘recall’ in the Vanniyars’ case, an early south Indian history connected with Calukyas.” There is no tentativeness in this statement of Prof Alf Hiltebeitel and he provides the reasons for the proposition that the Agnikula myth has a South Indian Origin. Can we now include this - verbatim or re-phrased?

What needs to be added to this article is this - Fire-born Kshatriya or Agnikula Kshatriya or Agnivamshas, who have a Fire Origin Myth, as a category are present or are prevalent in both North and South of India. The fire origin Myth of north India seems to have been inspired by the fire origin myths of the Vanniyakula Kshatriya of the South India. If you feel the need to rephrase, kindly discus here.

For authenticity please refer http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false IndianAnthro 02:08, 1 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MeNaagesh (talk • contribs)

Evident Bias from Rivertorch and Qwyrxian

Rivertorch and Qwyrxian - Please read the link below to understand what Prof. Alf Hiltebeitel says. Re-examine your comments above if you are serious about being neutral. I would refrain from questioning your understanding of writings in English, in retaliation, though I would not be even slightly off the mark, if I did so. I think serious scholars alone need to edit this page or be administrators. Administrators need to strictly avoid bearing a 'dog in the manger attitude' or adopt a derogatory stance in such articles. Administrators need to have the ability to read and follow serious English and have a sense of balance. Display them here, please. The link below is the whole Book by Prof Alf Hiltebeitel. Read the article titled "The Myth of Agnivamshas" to understand the context of my discussion. I would invite all other editors also to read them and comment.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false IndianAnthro 00:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MeNaagesh (talk • contribs)

Request for Neutral Point of View - Rivertorch and Qwyrxian

I appreciate the interest Rivertorch and Qwyrxian evince in editing, semi-protecting and their great attention to adherence to procedures by all other contributors, Great job! Please exercise caution while editing ethnographic articles. All Editors and administrators need to comply with one more very important principle - 'Neutral point of view'. You have reverted to an earlier version with the reason that the previous revert was 'unexplained removal of sourced content'. This applies to citations 1 & 2 sourced from Kumar, Dharma(1965)and Michael, Adas(1852). Dharma Kumar is a bureaucrat and an economic historian of India origin whose article seemed to have been written in 1965. The present article is an ethnographic article. You cannot ignore ethnographic sources such as Professor Alf Hiltebeitel's book on this topic. You could state both and display 'neutral point of view' or risk being perceived as a 'selective editor or adminsitrator'. Kindly add the following point of view too after reading the source. It is well sourced as the author is an American Anthropologist, a non-colonial and unbiased scholar and has done extensive ethnographic work on this caste and its pertinent varna. Kindly note you seem to have deleted the specific varna reference. Could you please care to explain these issues here and ensure that wiki editors are considered bound by the principle of 'Neutral point of view'.

Kindly also refer the following -

Source: Prof Alf Hiltebeitel further adds… on page no 470 in his book (Draupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits Rethinking India’s Oral and Classical Epics) “But even without this uncertainty, and with or without speculation on the mythic origins of Calukyas of Badami, we have three reasons to entertain the proposition that the myth of the Agnikula Kshatriyas has a south Indian origin, the cumulative nature of south Indian origin myths of fire-born lineages, the Calukya-Caulukya connection from south to north; and the similarities between Agnikula Origin myths of Chand Bardoi and Tamil Vanniyars which do not rely on Padmagupta for their parallels, and which ‘recall’ in the Vanniyars’ case, an early south Indian history connected with Calukyas.” There is no tentativeness in this statement of Prof Alf Hiltebeitel and he provides the reasons for the proposition that the Agnikula myth has a South Indian Origin. Can we now include this - verbatim or re-phrased?

What needs to be added to this article is this - Fire-born Kshatriya or Agnikula Kshatriya or Agnivamshas, who have a Fire Origin Myth, as a category are present or are prevalent in both North and South of India. The fire origin Myth of north India seems to have been inspired by the fire origin myths of the Vanniyakula Kshatriya of the South India. If you feel the need to rephrase, kindly discus here.

For authenticity please refer http://books.google.co.in/books?id=uV-RrRoMzbgC&pg=PA470&lpg=PA470&dq=alf+hiltebeitel+agnikula+origin+myth&source=bl&ots=eEMdCVfb8u&sig=BjxMcuuPZkgobfCb8KprFH7St00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A_wTUO-RHMbSrQe_gYHgCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=alf%20hiltebeitel%20agnikula%20origin%20myth&f=false IndianAnthro 02:14, 1 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MeNaagesh (talk • contribs) 117.202.130.172 (talk) 03:32, 1 June 2013 (UTC) IndianAnthro 03:37, 1 June 2013 (UTC)IndianAnthro 03:39, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

MeNaagesh, you quoted from my edit summary the phrase unexplained removal of sourced content. Did you miss the "unexplained" part? You made 32 edits to the article last month and didn't provide a rationale for even one of them. I have no dog in this fight, but until I'm able to perfect my psychic powers and become proficient at mindreading, I do expect other contributors to use edit summaries. I have no opinion on the substance of your argument. Rivertorch (talk) 07:18, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Wait, are you Prabhubreaker? It was that contributor whose edits were reverted. Perhaps you're someone else. If so, my apologies. If not, you really need to pick one username and account and edit from it exclusively or else use your IP exclusively. Who's IndianAnthro? Rivertorch (talk) 07:22, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Looking at the quotation you've provided, I think that what we could say with accuracy in this article is something like, "According to anthropologist Alf Hiltebeitel, the Tamil Vanniyar are historically connected to the south Indian Calukya group." Does that seem to be a reasonable summary? We certainly cannot say "were prevalent in North and South India", because Hiltebeitel doesn't say anything like that. We could specifically tie the connection to the myth similarity, but I'm not sure we need to. However, I'm not opposed to rephrase to include that info. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:57, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

A note to user Rivertorch. Kindly let us get identities right, and stop edits with a specific slant. The emphasis in my request is 'neutral point of view' which is a policy we need to adhere to. I do not know any other participant in this discussion and may not care to communicate indivudally. I am an anthropologist and an ethnographer. I use 'IndianAnthro' for that reason. You may have a personal 'equation' or 'inequation' with a participant/contributor called Prabhubreaker(a username, neither used by me, nor do I know him) which should not stop others from citing your combined preferences (including Qwyrxian) for some easily discernible tilt in your conclusions. I find that both of you, whom I consider my friends, do not want to read anthropological/ethnographic sources cited(or links provided) or deliberately draw conclusions with a specific slant. You also seem to forget your previous edits in this regard conveniently.

If Qwyrxian remembers his previous comments on Prof. Alf Hiltebeitel here, or if he reads the cited sources in detail he cannot deny including "...were prevalent in North and South India".

Kindly do note that Vanniyar and Vanniyakula kshatriya are alternate names and interchangeable. Kindly reinstate this. This has been removed. One reason why edits appear to bear extraneous considerations.

Could you please read your previous edits pertaining to Prof. Alf Hiltebeitel and revert so that all of us are perceived as having a 'neutral point of view'. Failing this, we may have to discus epistemology and logic here and as to how we need to arrive at the right conclusions.IndianAnthro 13:13, 1 June 2013 (UTC)117.202.158.176 (talk) 12:23, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Notes to contributor/editor/administrator Qwyrxian -

1. Please interpret this statement - "But even without this uncertainty, and with or without speculation on the mythic origins of Calukyas of Badami, we have three reasons to entertain the proposition that the myth of the Agnikula Kshatriyas has a south Indian origin, the cumulative nature of south Indian origin myths of fire-born lineages, ....". The rest of it is the reason provided for the above conclusion. Let us hear from you.

2. To understand the context further please read "The claim of Kshatriya varna by the once parvenus is sought to be legitimized by this mythology common to all the above Kshatriya castes/clans. On page 462 Prof Alf Hiltebeitel writes “Insofar as one can trace the Agnikula Myth through north Indian variants and to classical Sanskrit sources ..... trails connect north India to south, Sanskrit sources to Tamil ones,.....". Please note the statement pertaining to prevalence of Agnikula kshatriya origin myths in north and south.

3. Please read you own previous 'immediate' comments on this theme. Kindly do note Prof Alf Hiltebeitel dispels all 'tentativeness' refereed to by you above "...we have three reasons to entertain the proposition that the myth of the Agnikula Kshatriyas has a south Indian origin, the cumulative nature of south Indian origin myths of fire-born lineages, the Calukya-Caulukya connection from south to north; and the similarities between Agnikula Origin myths of Chand Bardoi and Tamil Vanniyars which do not rely on Padmagupta for their parallels, and which ‘recall’ in the Vanniyars’ case, an early south Indian history connected with Calukyas. Please note that Chand Bardois are Rajputs of north. Then how could any neutral contributor/editor/adminstrator such as Qwyrxian ( say that - "We certainly cannot say "were prevalent in North and South India", because Hiltebeitel doesn't say anything like that. We could specifically tie the connection to the myth similarity, but I'm not sure we need to."(Prof Alf Hiltebeitel further adds… on page no 470 in his book (Draupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits Rethinking India’s Oral and Classical Epics)

Please make the following changes:

1. Restore alternate names Vanniyakulakshatriya. Add Agnikulakshatriya. Retain Vanniyar and Palli too which are synonymous.

2. Quote Prof Alf Hiltebeitel and add "Pertaining to the origin myth of Vannikulakshatriyas Prof Alf Hiltebeitel says "...the myth of the Agnikula Kshatriyas has a south Indian origin"". (Refers to the mythological origin of the Vanniyakulakshatriyas or Agnikulakshatriyas of the south.

3. Fire-born Kshatriya or Agnikula Kshatriya or Agnivamshas, who have a Fire Origin Myth, as a category are present or are prevalent in both North and South of India. The fire origin Myth of north India seems to have been inspired by the fire origin myths of the Vanniyakula Kshatriya of the South India. (Please read points 1, 2 and 3 in notes to user Qwyrxian above for the rationale for this change.

4. Quote Prof Alf Hiltebeitel on the origin myth which goes thus “Two demons, Vatapi and Mahi (Entapi), obtained from Brahma the boon of invincibility against everything but fire, which they forgot to include in their request. They ravaged the countryside. Vatapi, swallowed the wind and Mahi the sun. The earth became still and dark. The terrified gods appealed to Brahma, who directed them to ask the Rsi Jambava Mahamuni… to perform a fire sacrifice. Rudra Vanniya Maharaja was thus born from the flames along with a host of armed horsemen. Having destroyed the two demons and released the wind and the sun, this first Vanniyar Governed the country….” The word Vanniyar is derived from this fire origin myth – Vahinikula Kshatriya or Agnikulaksatriya. This is elucidated by Prof Alf Hiltebetiel (on page no 444) when he discusses Nagpur Prashasti (inscriptions in praise of an individual or group etc.) of 1104 pertaining to the Vahini Vamsha or Agnivamsha legends. This legend, he further clarifies, “hints at parity with … Suryavamsa and Chandravamsa”. Thus we have three Kshatriya Vamshas - 'Suryavamsa', 'Chandravamsa' and 'Agnisvamsa' all over India.

Thanking both Rivertorch and Qwyrxian in anticipation of a 'neutral point of view'. IndianAnthro 13:13, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Seriously, I don't understand what you are asking. The quotation you provide does not state that Vanniyar were prevalent in the north and the south. All it says is that one myth of one group of Vanniyar (Tamil Vanniyar) indicates that they had a connection to the south. That is all it says. It does not say, for example, that the Agnikula Kshatriyas are the same people as the Tamil Vanniyar. It doesn't even come close to saying that. It merely says that there is some connection. I really don't know what else to tell you; perhaps this is an English reading comprehension issue, but I think that rather its that you already believe something, and are trying to add meaning to the text that is not there. And on that last part...again, the words you yourself provide do not match your preferred interpretation. "Hints at parity" is one of the loosest, most tentative, least certain ways of saying "these things might be connected" that I can imagine. And we wouldn't quote the origin myth anyway, since it doesn't even mention Vanniyar. Apologies that I can't help any more, but it's very obvious to me that what you think/claim Hiltebeitel says is not even close to what he says. Qwyrxian (talk) 16:50, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Qwyrxian you seem to me to be inviting me to discus semantics, logic and epistemology. Have you responded to all my points. Could you please discuss point by point or risk being labelled a biased administrator. I have specified four changes. Please respond to each of these points. Can you please do this?

1. Please interpret this statement - "But even without this uncertainty, and with or without speculation on the mythic origins of Calukyas of Badami, we have three reasons to entertain the proposition that the myth of the Agnikula Kshatriyas has a south Indian origin, the cumulative nature of south Indian origin myths of fire-born lineages, ....". The rest of it is the reason provided for the above conclusion. Let us hear from you.

2. To understand the context further please read "The claim of Kshatriya varna by the once parvenus is sought to be legitimized by this mythology common to all the above Kshatriya castes/clans. On page 462 Prof Alf Hiltebeitel writes “Insofar as one can trace the Agnikula Myth through north Indian variants and to classical Sanskrit sources ..... trails connect north India to south, Sanskrit sources to Tamil ones,.....". Please note the statement pertaining to prevalence of Agnikula kshatriya origin myths in north and south.

3. Please read you own previous 'immediate' comments on this theme. Kindly do note Prof Alf Hiltebeitel dispels all 'tentativeness' refereed to by you above "...we have three reasons to entertain the proposition that the myth of the Agnikula Kshatriyas has a south Indian origin, the cumulative nature of south Indian origin myths of fire-born lineages, the Calukya-Caulukya connection from south to north; and the similarities between Agnikula Origin myths of Chand Bardoi and Tamil Vanniyars which do not rely on Padmagupta for their parallels, and which ‘recall’ in the Vanniyars’ case, an early south Indian history connected with Calukyas. Please note that Chand Bardois are Rajputs of north. Then how could any neutral contributor/editor/adminstrator such as Qwyrxian ( say that - "We certainly cannot say "were prevalent in North and South India", because Hiltebeitel doesn't say anything like that. We could specifically tie the connection to the myth similarity, but I'm not sure we need to."(Prof Alf Hiltebeitel further adds… on page no 470 in his book (Draupadi among Rajputs, Muslims and Dalits Rethinking India’s Oral and Classical Epics)

"Please make the following changes:

1. Restore alternate names Vanniyakulakshatriya. Add Agnikulakshatriya. Retain Vanniyar and Palli too which are synonymous.

2. Quote Prof Alf Hiltebeitel and add "Pertaining to the origin myth of Vannikulakshatriyas Prof Alf Hiltebeitel says "...the myth of the Agnikula Kshatriyas has a south Indian origin"". (Refers to the mythological origin of the Vanniyakulakshatriyas or Agnikulakshatriyas of the south.

3. Fire-born Kshatriya or Agnikula Kshatriya or Agnivamshas, who have a Fire Origin Myth, as a category are present or are prevalent in both North and South of India. The fire origin Myth of north India seems to have been inspired by the fire origin myths of the Vanniyakula Kshatriya of the South India. (Please read points 1, 2 and 3 in notes to user Qwyrxian above for the rationale for this change.

4. Quote Prof Alf Hiltebeitel on the origin myth which goes thus “Two demons, Vatapi and Mahi (Entapi), obtained from Brahma the boon of invincibility against everything but fire, which they forgot to include in their request. They ravaged the countryside. Vatapi, swallowed the wind and Mahi the sun. The earth became still and dark. The terrified gods appealed to Brahma, who directed them to ask the Rsi Jambava Mahamuni… to perform a fire sacrifice. Rudra Vanniya Maharaja was thus born from the flames along with a host of armed horsemen. Having destroyed the two demons and released the wind and the sun, this first Vanniyar Governed the country….” The word Vanniyar is derived from this fire origin myth – Vahinikula Kshatriya or Agnikulaksatriya. This is elucidated by Prof Alf Hiltebetiel (on page no 444) when he discusses Nagpur Prashasti (inscriptions in praise of an individual or group etc.) of 1104 pertaining to the Vahini Vamsha or Agnivamsha legends. This legend, he further clarifies, “hints at parity with … Suryavamsa and Chandravamsa”. Thus we have three Kshatriya Vamshas - 'Suryavamsa', 'Chandravamsa' and 'Agnisvamsa' all over India."

Kindly specify your objection to each point above. One blanket statement cannot not explain each of the above points. Please be very specific. Could you please do this and establish your thoroughness and neutral point of view. IndianAnthro 17:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MeNaagesh (talk • contribs)

First off, "kindly" stop accusing me of bias. I've never met a Vanniyar, I've never been to India, I have no opinion whatsoever about the relative qualities, merits, or "goodness" of the Vanniyar. So if you want to continue this discussion, treat my responses as I intend them: a sober analysis of the sources you're giving. And if you want me to go point by point, here we go (these are your points you asked me to respond to, not the 4 things you want added):

1. Does not mention Vanniyar, and thus is useless for our discussion, until you first get a source established, without any doubt, that Agnikula Kshatriya = Vanniyar. But even if you make the connection with another source, and then are careful about WP:OR/WP:SYN, all it says is that the their mythology (not them, not their history, not the people, but the mythology) has a south Indian origin.
2. States that a group (what group must come in the sentence prior to this, the so-called "parvenus") base their Kshatriya claim on these origin myths. That does not state that the group are Kshatriya--merely that they claim to be kshatriya, and that they do so based upon a set of myths. Addditionally, the sentence again says that the myths have both north and south Indian origins.
3. Here's where, and I apologize, I have to question your reading comprehension. You say he "dispels all tentativeness". Do you not see the very first words you typed? He says, "we have three reasons to entertain the proposition". That means "There are three pieces of evidence that make this idea worth consideration". It does not mean that he agrees with the proposition. It merely says that there is enough evidence that, as a good scientist, he should evaluate the claim--that is, it's not completely ridiculous, but possibly accurate. In order to decide whether or not Hiltebeitel agrees with the proposition, I would need to know what the next several pages of the book say (it's very normal for a scientist to say "There are three pieces of evidence making this hypothesis worth considering: A, B, C. However, when we also look at evidence D, E, and F, and look at the greater context, we must reject the hypothesis." But even taking this reading alone, what the text says is "There are three pieces of evidence that Angnikula Kshatriya origin myth has a south Indian origin." Once again, just like I keep telling you, that means that the myth has a south Indian origin. It does not state that the AK themselves have a south Indian origin. This kind of precision is absolutely necessary.

Does that answer your questions? My apologies if I cannot answer very quickly; I am extremely busy in real life and have very little time for Wikipedia right now. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:20, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 June 2013

<copy of article removed by Qwyrxian Premthanjavur (talk) 07:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Premthanjavur, please don't put an entire copy of the article here. Instead, please propose specific, individual changes. Plus, the version you suggested was terribly flawed--much of your proposed article was unsourced, and the rest was based on basically only one source, something we never want to do. If you think said source should be added, along with the specific text you think it could support, then we could discuss that. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:02, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 June 2013

"Historical status

In the 19th century the Vanniyar held a low position in both Lower Burma and in South India.[1][2] For example, Dharma Kumar refers to several early 19th century authors who describe the Palli in South India as being higher than untouchables,[1] while Michael Adas says that in Burma the Palli were "socially better off" than the untouchable castes but were "economically equally exploited and deprived".[2]"

Do you think comparing with other caste like untouchables is a historical status. It doesn't make sense and makes lack of quality of Wikipedia page. Please just know about the difference between the historical status and comparison.

Vanniyar are Pandyan Rulers: Page No: 217 http://books.google.co.in/books?id=VncomfRVVhoC&pg=PA39&dq=vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yCbIUeGYKIWtrAfKqYDoCQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vanniyar&f=false

Veera Vanniya Maharaja: Page No: 37 http://books.google.co.in/books?id=VncomfRVVhoC&pg=PA39&dq=vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yCbIUeGYKIWtrAfKqYDoCQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vanniyar&f=false

Vanniyar Population: Page No: 50 http://books.google.co.in/books?id=7guY1ut-0lwC&pg=PA50&dq=vanniyar+means+fire&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xSjIUaazIMSHrQfWxoGgBQ&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=2%2C944%2C014&f=false

Hi Qwyrxian (talk), if want more details about it, just get back to me i will provide with Sourced content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prabhubreaker (talk • contribs) 08:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The first source could be used (though we've discussed it before, above, and found that we need to be very careful when using it). I've only quickly glanced, but it looks like we could say something like, "However, Alf Hiltebeitel states that in the Vijayanagar the Vanniyar began to taking on 'Kshatriya prerogatives' such as joining local armies."(plus ref, pages 38-39). That way we could include both opinions.

And let me clarify that again: even if we add the Hlitenbeitel, we will not remove the other two claims. Wikipedia articles should try to represent the variety of opinions among scholars, even when they disagree. Will this addition be a good start?

The second source says nothing that I can see other than giving a count from the 1911 census, which we could consider including, though it says nothing about status; I can only see one paragraph, though; if you can see more, please provide some of the relevant text here. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:18, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Hiltebeitel (first two sources) can be problematic and, of course, most academics believe that there were no kshatriya in south India. As Qwyrxian notes, the choice of phrasing would be significant. Please note that while pp. 37-39 might be useful, p. 217 is not. That latter page is a single-sentence footnote about one person as recorded in an ancient text that is known to be more story than fact, more myth than fact. Much of Hiltebeitel's writing is a discussion of things in that fictional/mythical context.

The other sources (Rudolph) is referring to the Vanniyars, aka Vanniya Kula Kshatriya, who were previously known as the Pallis. "As early as early as 1833, the Pallis as they were then called, had ceased to accept their status as a humble agricultural class and tried to procure a decree in Pondicherry that they were not a low caste." This is interesting because it predates the Raj and it predates the period when the application of scientific racism and officially-sanctioned attempts to categorise communities really took off. It suggests that they were considered a low caste by their peers as much as - if not more than - by the officialdom of the East India Company. (The census figure, by the way, is not really worth quoting: aside from being of dubious reliability, there are other sources that discuss the the Vanniyars specifically in the context of various censuses and note that definitions changed from one decade to the next etc. Rudolph acknowledges that the figures for 1931 are "tentative". This fundamental difficulty is a widely-known systemic problem and Kumar discusses it in the Vanniyar context.)

Rudolph goes on to record attempts to obtain kshatriya recognition in the Raj censuses, based on oral history connections of Palli = Pallava. He says "Such radically revisionist [oral] history has characteristically accompanied efforts by caste associations to establish new identities and statuses. The symbiosis linking subject and dominant social groups seems to require for its dissolution the re-examination of the past and the reconstruction of myth and history." They began to use the Vanniyar name and to append Kshatriya - this is classic sanskritisation, akin to that of the Nadars - "The effectiveness of the Pallis in influencing the official recorders on the one hand, and their own members on the other, was considerable. By 1931, the Pallis had disappeared altogether from the census, and only the Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas remained." This is not quite the same as obtaining official recognition as being kshatriya, and certainly not the same as being accepted as such by other communities: the Raj enumerators could only accept the caste name that they were told by those whom they were counting, so if Pallis all decided to call themselves VKK then that is how they would be recorded. - Sitush (talk) 10:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 8 July 2013

Please edit the article completely it have very less information about vanniyars.I Refered many Reliable sources/References here.. references: 1)Edgar Thurston ,Castes and Tribes of South India [1] 2)Karashima, Noboru (2009). South Indian Society in Transition: Ancient to Medieval. New Delhi: OXFORD. pp. 139, 140. ISBN 978-0-19-806312-4. 3)Kambar, Silaiyelupathu Silaiyelupathu (in Tamil) Retrieved 2012-07-17. 4)Pran Nath Chopra,, T. K. Ravindran, N. Subrahmanian (1979). History of South India: Medieval period.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)</ref> 5)Joshua Project, Ethnic groups, Vanniyan of India {http://joshuaproject.net/people-profile.php?peo3=18323&rog3=IN) 6)Vanniyar Sangam {http://www.vanniarsangam.com/Vanniarhistory.aspx}

With the above mentioned references edit the article Vanniyar completely Premthanjavur (talk) 18:02, 8 July 2013 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:User_access_levels#Autoconfirmed_users

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Holdek (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about sources 2-4, but Thurston, like other British colonialists, is reliable only for his own opinions, not for historical facts; The Joshua Project is a religious advocacy site that has repeatedly been ruled to not meet WP:RS, and 6 is just a random website with no authority/editorial control, and thus does not meet WP:RS. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:33, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Why edit was reverted .

I want the valid reason from either Qwyrxian or sitush for reverting my recent edit.

I read the book "Land and Caste in South India: Agricultural Labour in the Madras Presidency During the Nineteenth Century" 1965publisher is Cambridge University . Based on that book only I made my recent edit.

I have stated the following lines based on that book "Land and Caste in South India: Agricultural Labour in the Madras Presidency During the Nineteenth Century" only .

"Dharma kumar refers that in 1871 and 1901 less than 20 percentage of vanniyars were only agricultural labourers and 1871 census report states that 70 percentage of vanniyars were cultivators".

let me know why my below lines of edit was reverted ,

"The vanniyars were mostly agriculturist for example , Dharma kumar refers that in 1871 and 1901 less than 20 percentage of vanniyars were only agricultural labourers and 1871 census report states that 70 percentage of vanniyars were cultivators(not agricultural labourers (i.e) owning their own land for cultivation). "

If any of the editor have any objection in adding these lines . please discuss here. --Suryavarman01 (talk) 22:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Kumar is discussing the vagaries of classification adopted by the Raj census authorities and enumerators. He is not saying that the figures are accurate and, indeed, is generally noting (across a range of communities) just how problematic they are. I need to think about how to deal with this but one thing is certain: we cannot state those figures as a true picture of the circumstances that prevailed. It is well-known that the Raj census figures often bore little relationship to reality, for a host of reasons. - Sitush (talk) 23:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The book is reliable source or not ? . If the book is reliable source then what he stated about the census should also be reliable .

The census will give the facts which are almost accurate . Even now government records are using the census records as the primary source of data .

If Mr.Kumar stated in the book as "Raj census is not reliable source for facts about vanniyar" then let me know the page number and line number of such statement .

Otherwise revert your version and update my version of edit . --Suryavarman01 (talk) 21:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

It is a reliable source but not for what you seem to want to say. That you think The census will give the facts which are almost accurate merely demonstrates that (a) you have no in fact understood what the source says and (b) you are one of the many people who are under the misapprehension that British Raj censuses were as near as dammit accurate, which is a fact that has generated a host of academic discourses in itself. - Sitush (talk) 23:29, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If Mr.kumar(Author of Land and Caste in South India ) considered the British RAJ Census as unreliable then he would have not referred the data from Raj Census in his book . If you're thinking the British Raj census as unreliable then you should not impose that on others . so undo your version so that my update will be visible. --Suryavarman01 (talk) 23:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

One of the problems that Kumar highlights is the vague/inconsistent usage of names - Vanniyar, Palli etc - that make definition difficult. They also raise the issue of the omissions in the 1881 and 1891 decennial censuses, which is why your statement has to jump from 1871 to 1901. Kumar goes into considerable depth in trying to analyse the situation and is perhaps more favourable to this specific census data than are many other academic sources to the accuracy of the Raj census data generally. I do not dispute that the paragraph in question could be improved but I don't think that your attempt was as much an improvement as an attempt to "push" your opinion, and it glossed over the difficulties raised by Kumar.

Selective paraphrasing of sources is rarely a good idea. I'm going to review the literature at JSTOR etc to see if any further studies have been conducted. - Sitush (talk) 10:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Vanniyars were slaves till 19th century

Till the 19th century vanniyars were slaves incapable of owning property or cultivating on their own. Others were thieves by profession. Please include this in the introduction.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=nYIuAQAAIAAJ&q=vanniyar+palli&dq=vanniyar+palli&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-F3WUa7BI5G0rAfWxoHgAQ&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCTgK

Page 50

The below line from the same book at page number 58 contradicts your lines so it cannot be added . The below lines reveals that 70 percentage of palli were cultivators (i.e. owning own land for cultivation) which contradicts the lines above in page .50 . If they were incapable of owning property of their own why the author has said the below lines.

In 1871 and 1901 , less than 20 percent of the palli were actually agricultural labourers , On the other hand 1871 census report states that 70 percent of them were cultivators (as opposed to labours and so on ).

Page no : 58 .

The archaeological survey of india(ASI) has revealed its inscriptions which has authenticated proof for palli(Vanniyar) rulers in Tamil Nadu , India. corresponding to A.D. 1144.

'A.R. No 232 of 1916'Bold text

Srimushnam (S.A.): 6th year.

Registers remission of padikaval and other levies due to the donor from the devadana lands, for worship to the god at Tirumuttam in Vilandai-kurram, a subdivision of Merka-nadu Irungolappadi in Virudarajabhayankara-valanadu by Alappirandan Elisaimogan alias Kulottungasolak-Kadavarayan, a Palli having the kani-right in Urumur alias Solapandya-chaturvedimangalam alias Erumbur, for the merit of himself and his family.

The inscription explains "the ruler named Alappirandan Elisaimogan a palli , donored the land for worship to the god at tirumuttam in vilandai-kurram" ,which is in tamil nadu , India.

url : http://www.whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_12/appendix_b.html

From the above proofs it is very clear that palli(vanniyars) were once rulers who donated their lands for society or public for worshiping.(For temples). so there is no fact in saying vanniyars are thieves or slaves till 19 th century . --Suryavarman01 (talk) 05:08, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

the book mentions that vanniayars who were salves till 19th century clearly and they had undergone transformation in the british period.

more reference to prove that vanniayars/palli is a lower caste which till the 19 century was not allowed to hold lands and were slaves

http://books.google.com/books?id=KYj8qxhG2R0C&pg=PA141&dq=palli+caste+tamil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7ITbUZqpLqrjiAKHt4HwDw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=palli%20caste%20tamil&f=false

page 141

Infact vanniyars are included in the most backward list by the indian government. ×

In the case of the Vanniyars, the community wanted to be recognised as a most backward caste (MBC) as distinct from other backward castes in Tamil Nadu. The Vanniyars, under the leadership of the PMK Chief Dr S Ramadoss, who then led the Vanniyar Sangham, demanded a 20% reservation for the community claiming that it constituted one-fifth of the state's population.

That in turn opened the door for numerous other castes to follow suit and ended with Chief Minister M Karunanidhi announcing a 20% reservation for MBCs in 1989 .

Due to more population of vanniyars , they demanded for separate reservation for vanniyars from the rest of BC(Backward classes). After the huge protest and agitation following the death of 24 vanniyar people . Government has decided to give the reservation for vanniyars for which they created a new band called "Most Backward Class " in tamil nadu state for giving the reservations among the other BC(Backward Classes) in Tamil Nadu . Until that vanniyars were only in BC in Tamil Nadu .

Even Now as per the Indian government(Central government) Vanniyars were in OBC (Others back ward castes) only not in MBC. Only the state government tamil nadu created a new list called MBC in order to give reservations apart from BC . Please refresh your knowledge about Tamil Nadu and India before leaving a false comment.--Suryavarman01 (talk) 06:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Check this out ,

From the same book what you have referred visit the page number 24 , the author had clearly mentioned the term low caste . The non brahman castes which are neither depressed(paraiyan , sakilian ,pallan) nor vellalars are termed as low caste non brahman (palli , ambalakaran , muthariyar , udayar) population .

http://books.google.com/books?id=KYj8qxhG2R0C&pg=PA141&dq=palli+caste+tamil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7ITbUZqpLqrjiAKHt4HwDw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=palli%20caste%20tamil&f=false --Suryavarman01 (talk) 06:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, first of all, as I've told you before, the inscription is a primary source, useless for our purposes until a secondary source comments on it. We need a secondary source to put the inscription in context--was there one single Vanniyar (or one family) who held that status? Was it common? Are we sure this is the same Vanniyar as being discussed in the other books? Without that context, we cannot just guess at our own interpretation of the meaning of that inscription.

As for the Malaysia in History book, I don't understand why we would use a book on Malaysian history to discuss Indian castes; this seems unintuitive; however, maybe someone who has access to the whole book can provide some more info.

As for the A Century of Change...is that refering to the Vanniyar? Palli sometimes refers to Vanniyar, but sometimes refers to an entirely different group. If it does refer to Vanniyar, though, it seems to shore up the idea that "Vanniyar used to be in a very low status, but over the course of the 19th century, gradually rose in status to become landowners." Again, though, I can only read snippets, so need others to provide more context for this analysis. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I have clearly mentioned the url in my comments did you went through the URL Which has the translation of the inscription . The inscriptions is the primary source and the secondary source(Translation in English) of the inscription is clearly published in the website , please atleast check the url now .it has the English translation for the inscription . ('A.R. No 232 of 1916'Bold text)

http://www.whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_12/appendix_b.html

1. I have mentioned one inscription which doesn't mean there is only one palli king existed . There are many inscription proofs for palli kings , which I will write it when I get some time . There lot of chances where many inscription must be hidden in soil .

"As for the A Century of Change...is that refering to the Vanniyar? Palli sometimes refers to Vanniyar, but sometimes refers to an entirely different group"

2. Answer for your above question . palli is the only clan in tamil nadu known to be vanniyar.--Suryavarman01 (talk) 07:30, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Which author , book has mentioned vanniyar held low position and in which page . I read in mr. kumars and adas Michael books they were economically exploited . But it doesn't mean they held a low position . so it can be removed.--Suryavarman01 (talk) 07:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

First, please start indenting your responses, as shown in WP:INDENT. Second, a translation is by definition still a WP:PRIMARY source. A translation does not explain, provide background, or analysis. It doesn't tell us anything about why the inscription was written, how common the even described in the inscription was, who exactly it was referring to...it doesn't even tell us how "accurate" the account is. Yes, we can trust that the ARI has accurately translated the statement, but, of course, just because someone carved something on a stone a few centuries (or more) ago does not make it "true" information. We need modern days historians/sociologists/analysts of whatever stripe to tell us what the inscription means. As for the low status...I don't know what to tell you. If a book says that someone was almost a slave, that's clearly a low status. If a book says someone was economically exploited, that's a low status. Maybe the word "status" means something different to you, but it very clearly applies here. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:32, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment:@Suryavarman I suggest that you do a good reading of wp:RS and wp:OR. also please take the sanctions advice seriously. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

@ Qwyrxian , The inscriptions are the authentic source for the castes and ritual habits in India .All the modern days historians are looking for the inscriptions only as the primary source . Archaeological society of india , publishes only authenticated monuments , this article is not about modern day science or any place which is only existing from 19th century , this article is about the caste(group of people) of Tamil people who have the history more than 2000 years so when you have to discuss about the 12th century you need to take the inscriptions as the proof and genuine source and not any modern day historians. So edit the article in order to include the inscriptions . If you want me to create a new section for edit request , let me know I will do that .--Alexjordan001 (talk) 04:53, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing you can do to include the inscriptions. They are a primary source. If, as you say, modern historians are looking at the inscriptions, then find the writings of one of those modern historians, and quote what they have to say about the inscriptions. Then we can include that commentary. But the inscription itself is meaningless--you don't even know, right now, if it refers to the same group of people as this article. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:12, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Images?

Found a few leads:

• ~1801 "Man of Palli caste", but it's got watermarks all over it
• Castes and Tribes has one photo of a Palli worshiper

Any other ideas? MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:46, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

The man of palli caste is a good photo. It is representative of the communities dress and represents the ancestors. please post it. Arya seshadri (talk)

I have put up a request at Wikipedia:Graphics_Lab/Illustration_workshop#Removing_watermarks_from_an_1800-1801_CE_illustration_of_a_South_Indian_caste.3F. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Does the posting of photo from the "Castes and Tribes of South India " book doesn't violates the copy rights violation? Matthew vanitas do you got the any permission from the Publisher of the book ? --Alexjordan001 (talk) 04:30, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

It is out of copyright. We've used images from it on several articles but we have to be really sure that the subject is of the right community because, generally speaking, Thurston is not reliable due to the methodology he used. - Sitush (talk) 07:41, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Sitush , If the Author Thurston is not reliable then how we can use the image from that book . It should be removed then . --Neo patel (talk) 23:26, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

To elaborate, his methods were wrong but (a) he didn't take the photos and (b) in all my time here only one image from his books has been challenged on the grounds of authenticity and in that instance it was a contributor mistake, not a mistake on Thurston's part. I'm not particularly interested in images, so whether the thing is in this article or not isn't going to cause me any loss of sleep. - Sitush (talk) 00:59, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

@ Sitush , Ok then any user who have edit access please remove that picture or the picture contributor can remove that picture . --Neo patel (talk) 04:03, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Hold up, what's the actual argument for the removal? What are you claiming is actually wrong with the picture? It's clearly labeled in the book, and I've captioned it as described in the book. We only have one supporter for removal, and one neutral, and I disagree with the removal, so I don't see any consensus to remove. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The book "Castes and Tribes of South India" is not the reliable source , so we are not using anything from that book in this article . So it can be removed even i support for the removal of the picture from that book . If the book is reliable , let us know so that we can have that picture in the article .--Suryavarman01 (talk) 00:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I am inclined to accept the argument for removal. We know Thurston does not meet WP:RS as a general rule. This means that the burden falls on those who wish to include the picture, and it must be removed by default. Now, if someone wants to make an argument (I suggest at WP:RSN, notifying us here) that while Thurston is generally unreliable, this picture is okay because it's more "simple" or "factual" or adding that he didn't himself even take the picture, then feel free to do so. But absent a clear consensus to include the image, it shouldn't be included. As for myself, I would need a very strong argument to overcome the general unreliability, though I could be swayed. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Photographs are inherently WP:Primary sources, so I don't see why they should fall under the exact same rules as text. For example and by corollary, the vast, vast majority of Americans who worked with the Sioux Indians in the mid-1800s would not at all be seen as RS unto themselves, though they may be excellent primary sources for modern academics. However, we don't' eschew using 1870s photographs of Sioux Indians simply because the person who snapped the photo was a cavalryman rather than a modern academic. I really think this thing got kicked off by a few people being WP:Pointy when told not to quote Thurston, so now they're attacking the photos in retaliation. If we're going to stop using Thurston for images, that's going to seriously impoverish our caste articles in general since he's one of the more prolific of the accessible photographers, and while not WP:RS for academic text his photos are certainly more reliable than just going by the captions of penny-postcards as we so often have to do to find good pre-WWII images of cultural groups. I grant the consensus does not yet support restoring this particular photo, but I'm rather displeased that the objection was raised in the first place, and I'm having trouble AGFing the objection.

In all seriousness, do we have any WP:RS policy specifically applying to photographs, drawings, paintings, etc? I can't begin to imagine how many images we'd have to remove from Wiki to meet text RS standards, it's literally absurd. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:14, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

GIlles Boquerat

I've just reverted this edit, mainly because it removed sourced information without explanation. However, it also introduced a new source - a book written by Gilles Boquerat - and I'd be grateful if there was some means of taking a look at that. The phrasing was poor and this article has been subject to a fair amount of POV edits, so I think it is not unreasonable to request further information. There wasn't even a page number or a title. - Sitush (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Potential sources for expansion

• Nicholas B. Dirks (2001). Castes of Mind: Colonialism and the Making of Modern India. Princeton University Press. pp. 239–. ISBN 978-0-691-08895-2. Retrieved 10 July 2013.MatthewVanitas (talk) 06:26, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• S. N. Sadasivan (1 January 2000). A Social History Of India. APH Publishing. pp. 281–. ISBN 978-81-7648-170-0. Retrieved 11 July 2013.MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:21, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Castes and Tribes of Southern India: Nokkan.— The Nokkans, who often go by the name of Jadipillais (children of the caste), are a class of mendicants, who beg from members of the Palli caste. The word Nokkan is said to mean ' he who looks'. (borne out in more modern scholarship, may be worth a mention. MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@MattewVanitas IS the book "Castes and Tribes of Southern India" is the reliable source ? --Alexjordan001 (talk) 04:33, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

No, it isn't. We could perhaps use the "more modern scholarship". - Sitush (talk) 13:39, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Vanniyar is not a caste name but just a tiltle used by several castes like udayar,Thevar,Vanniyar etc.

There is no historical evidence about a caste called Vanniyar.Vanniyar tiltle doesn't belong to a single caste..Varoious castes have the tiltle Vanniyars.This is misleading since the so called vanniyars claim everyone bearing this sirname to be their caste Serveral caste like padayatchi,naiker,palli,peddiyar are calling themselves as vanniyar..Their habits differ and they dont belong to a single caste — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.114.81.2 (talk) 06:42, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Gorringe

@Suryavarman01: has expressed a concern that the book by Hugo Gorringe (used in the "Present" section) may be unreliable. I have tagged the article appropriately. I don't know why Suryavarman01 thinks this--the person is an academic, writing in their specialization, and published by an academic publisher. I've asked the user to come here and discuss the matter. If the user doesn't explain relatively soon, I'll remove the tag. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:19, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Courtesy link to Gorringe's biographical notes. - Sitush (talk) 04:03, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

@ Qwyrxian , thanks for the initiative , i will start my discussion shortly --Suryavarman01 (talk) 19:21, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

"Traditionally most Vanniyars are agricultural labourers" . How Hugo Gorringe is concluded that vanniyars were traditionally agricultural labourers. What are the books he has the reference for these . --Suryavarman01 (talk) 13:55, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

That is not our problem - he is a reliable source and it is not for us to question him. - Sitush (talk) 21:50, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Every Book has some Reference , he might have reffered other book . So if you are adding some lines based on a book , then it should be checked on what basis the author has given that information --Suryavarman01 (talk) 09:01, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Explain big revert

I've just done a big revert of recently-added information. Although at first glance it appears to be sourced, the problem is that the sources are not reliable. Edgar Thurston, certainly, has been referred to before in discussions here (and on hundreds of other caste-related articles). The "states" series of The People of India takes its information more often than not from Raj sources such as Thurston and rarely attributes things in a manner befitting a supposedly academic work, thus rendering it useless also.

We'll have to work our way through the rest of what was added. This article has been subject to a lot of caste POV-pushing and socking (again, see prior discussions) and care will be required. I'd suggest that all changes are discussed before they are made, at least for the near future. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 18:10, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Improper Comment by Rivertorch - Describes comment 'Asinine' - Sticks to Derogatory stance - Ignores/misinterprets/distorts sourced information which is balanced - And then attacks others

Collapsing a rant. Please read WP:NPA - Sitush (talk) 18:31, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Please take note of the a comment by Rivertorch "Evident bias"? Hello, MeNaagesh. In light of your recent edits at Talk:Vanniyar, especially this one, I would ask that you please review WP:AGF, a longstanding Wikipedia guideline that serves us well when it is observed. The idea that I am in any way biased about Vanniyar, "a very large social group of people spread all across South India", might be laughable—considering I'd never even heard the word until recently—were it not offensive. You know nothing about me or my views, and it is asinine to suggest that you do. I explained why I reverted your edit and I stated clearly that I have no opinion on the changes you propose to make to the article, and that's as much as I intend to say on the talk page. If you'd like to become a Wikipedian in good standing, please refrain from voicing ignorant assumptions about your fellow contributors, use edit summaries, and sign your talk page posts. That's not too much to ask. In fact, it's expected of everyone who edits here. Rivertorch (talk) 05:37, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MeNaagesh Please note the following points - He says that I know nothing about his views. My revert is that his views are obvious from the talk page alone. He uses the word asinine' and easily tempts me to call him imbecile which I would refrain from doing because we are not into name calling, here. Some interested readers may take cue that this guy works with selectivity in sources and removes all sourced content differing from his point of view or distorts or willfully misinterprets sources. He knows no fundamentals of Anthropology of Ethnography/History or Ethnology. Yet he chooses to edit articles in this field. His views on selectivity of resources and interpretation of resources are obvious evidence of his special interest and is at great variance with those of the scholars from various parts of the globe. He approves of resources which only cursorily mention ethnographic facts and ignores in depth ethnographic sources. Further, he approves only of resources and facts which are derogatory of this ethnic group. He deliberately disapproves sources/facts which speak good of this ethnic group. We need a mix of both for a balance. Further he applies this resource criterion only to this ethnic group. The same resources are well regarded in other wiki articles pertaining to other ethnic groups from India. He shows obvious interest in a derogatory point of view on this ethnic group alone. This is why I call him biased. He uses intemperate language and uses the adjective 'asinine', while referring to another editor's comments, which shows his intellectual class. His purpose seems emotional from the language he adopts. He discards rationality when he works here. This is not the spirit of Wikipedia. He needs to be relieved of his privileges as an administrator. I do not care to do so and I do not have the time. Anybody who cares may do so. His actions need to be reported. If Wikipedia retains such administrators.... may god save wikipedia.117.202.128.138 (talk) 03:14, 8 February 2014 (UTC)IndianAnthro 11:57, 8 February 2014 (UTC)IndianAnthro 01:44, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Historical Status

In Historical status i am seeing the tag "Page needed" . would some one is going to add the page .

--Suryavarman01 (talk) 19:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Historical Status

In Historical status i am seeing the tag "Page needed" . would some one is going to add the page .

--Suryavarman01 (talk) 19:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Present

@ Sitush ,

Why the phrasing was removed . you have mentioned as " The Vanniyars were classified as the Most Backward Caste after successful agitations in 1980s." Then what is vanniyars classification before 1980 , do they belong to "Forward Caste" before the agitation , if you are mentioning the were classified as Most backward caste after the agitation in 1980 , then what was there classification before 1980 ? It should be mentioned . In the phrase i have mentioned it clearly . why you have removed that ? Let us remove both the versions as of now and discuss the issue here and then finalize which we can add in the article . --Suryavarman01 (talk) 08:13, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I have reverted your removal. The statement is sourced and it does make sense, ie: after a campaign in the 1980 they were classified as MBC. Sure, it would be nice to know what their status was before then but it isn't necessary for the purposes of parsing the statement that is made and is sourced. In the ideal world, I'd like to find sources that refer to the campaign itself so that we can get a grip on why they were demanding the change in classification. But no source means no mention. - Sitush (talk) 09:09, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Sitush , you have added the wrong information , the classification of Vanniyars as Most backward class happened in 1988 and not in 1980 . Please check the G.O. issued by State Goverment of Tamilnadu . The BC quota of 50% were divided in to two 30 % for BC and 20 % for the other group of castes from Backward caste were carved out to form the Most backward classes due to the agitation organized by the Vanniyar sangam led by Dr. S.Ramadoss. --AlexJordan1 (talk) 16:52, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

@ Sitush , why you have reverted the changes sitush when a discussion is going on about those lines . Cant you wait till the discussion in talk page is done . Does you source is having only half information ? dont add any half baked information , if you dont have source for enough information discuss in talk page , wiki users will provide you enough information . You are saying you have added those information from the reliable source . please show that reliable source here so that we can see whether the source have enough information about the agitation or not . --Suryavarman01 (talk) 17:09, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

@ Alex if you have any source for this info please add that , so that we will be able to add those lines in the article . --Suryavarman01 (talk) 17:09, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

You do not appear to have read the article correctly. It says that things changed in the 1980s, not in 1980. That information comes from the cited source & there is not much I can do about your inability to read what is said. I reverted you per WP:BRD and, in particular, WP:V. I've no idea why that source has been tagged as unreliable, given that it comes from an academic publisher and has itself been cited in numerous other academic publications. Details of the author can be found here and it is my intention to remove that tag as being entirely inappropriate. - Sitush (talk) 17:52, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Vanniyar is a caste of agricultural laborers and of very low social status close to untouchables. There is no proof or evidence of link to kadavar dynasty. From 19th century with the british abolising bonded labor and slavery in India thee vanniyars are trying to improve their social status ( which is good ) but dont put false information.

http://books.google.com/books?id=E196AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA28&dq=vanniyar+untouchables&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nCgnU47gH4LmoATZhID4BA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=vanniyar%20untouchables&f=false

page 28 of The Meaning of the Local: Politics of Place in Urban India edited by Geert de Neve, Henrike Donner published by UCL press and a academic publication by UK / USA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brahmin order (talk • contribs) 16:58, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Edit request on March 18 2014

I have the following edit requests. The first sentence should state " Vanniyar also known as Palli a caste of agricultural laborers found in tamilnadu "

and then please add " Till the 19th century the vanniyars were hereditary servitudes for the brahmins in tamilnadu. They were virtually slaves in tamilnadu. They could be even sold or mortgaged. The british government and missionary at that time helped abolish these practices."

Reference provided below

This information is critical since every one blames the british imperialism "

http://books.google.com/books?id=8Czd7xXIf3MC&pg=PA90&dq=palli+slaves&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D0snU9rgDYiEoQSB1oCQBA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q=palli&f=false

page 91 The Burma Delta: Economic Development and Social Change on an Asian Rice ... By Michael Adas A publication by university of wisconsin.

At the bottom of Indian society: the Harijan and other low castes by Stephen Fuchs

http://books.google.com/books?ei=c2MnU6XVJILkoAS674L4Aw&id=wZI9AAAAMAAJ&dq=vanniyar+slaves&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=vanniyar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brahmin order (talk • contribs) 18:14, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

also there is no link between vanniyar and kadava. Please provide the page or internet link which can be veiwed. Brahmin order (talk) 21:30, 19 March 2014 (UTC)Brahim Order

I have one question

Who are asking the Tamil caste padayachi to declare themselves as Vanniyakula kshatriyas. vanniyar is not a tamil name its a sanskrit his caste name really as palli and vanniyar never kshatriyas they improve their status and us ekshatria — Preceding unsigned comment added by Srinivasan107 (talk • contribs) 10:12, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Source? - Sitush (talk) 10:31, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Sitush this article has wrong information. Vanniyars are descendants of chola, chera and pandiyas. Historical status needs to be modified. Vanniyar solar race (talk) 04:18, 25 April 2014 (UTC)vanniyar_solar_race

vanniyars of sri lanka

there are sinhalaized and tamilized vanniyars in sri lanka. they were said to be decendants of several princes migrated to sri lanka from south india. either malabar/telugu speaking, according to descendents of sinhalaized vanniars . this is another book readers might want to read. http://noolaham.net/project/47/4645/4645.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samanpress (talk • contribs) 05:32, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Origin of the word Vanniyar...

As written in the article..the word "Valimai"..cannot evolve into "Vanni"..there is no such possiblity at all..no connections...also..it sates that in Andhra..vanniars are referred to as Agnikula ..which means Fire...so it is..very obvious that "Vanni" is derived from the sanskrit word "Vahni" which means fire..

Moderator, Please add appropriate citations to inscriptions n records. the page is simply looking vague, sentences should be authenticated n shall be backed with evidences. Thnx Indianprithvi (talk) 12:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

58.68.25.210 (talk) 11:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)As written in the article..the word "Valimai"..cannot evolve into "Vanni"..there is no such possiblity at all// While it is logical to argue that Valimai cannot evolve into Vanni, the variant of Valimai, Van, Vanmai can definitely evolve into Vanni. Again Valimai, Vanmai, Van all means Valour. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.68.25.210 (talk) 11:36, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Vanniar Puranam

vanniar puruda, which means the story of vanniar, gives the history of the vanniars.

Thiru K. Rathinam Naicker reprinted this story book with detailed explanation in 2005. Book Author and Publisher: Mr. K.Rathinam Naicker, Velan Publishers, No. 137/64, Ayya Mudali St, Chintadripet, Chennai-600002. TamilNadu. India.

The holywood film "Annabelle" was based on a true events that happened to a vanniyar family in USA

Antropolgical study

Vanniyars are not the only kshathriyas in tamilnadu. they are called as agnikula kshathriyas after submitting a petition.

Malayaman

"Burton Stein also finds title in a thirteenth-century inscription identifying Vanniyar subcastes of south arcot in the left-right caste classification typical of the chola empire"

The stein also mentioned "Vanniyar warriors from south arcot captured srilanka " . I want to include those lines in the article , please help me .≠≥±

Hereditary servitude ( we need a new section )

Till the 19th century the vanniyars were hereditary servitudes for the brahmins in tamilnadu. They were virtually slaves in tamilnadu. They could be even sold or mortgaged. The british government and missionary at that time helped abolish these practices. This information is critical since every one blames the british imperialism.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8Czd7xXIf3MC&pg=PA90&dq=palli+slaves&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D0snU9rgDYiEoQSB1oCQBA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q=palli&f=false

page 91 The Burma Delta: Economic Development and Social Change on an Asian Rice ... By Michael Adas A publication by university of wisconsin.

At the bottom of Indian society: the Harijan and other low castes by Stephen Fuchs

http://books.google.com/books?ei=c2MnU6XVJILkoAS674L4Aw&id=wZI9AAAAMAAJ&dq=vanniyar+slaves&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=vanniyar

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2014

176.252.143.102 (talk) 01:36, 10 November 2014 (UTC) Rajaliyar ,nainaar also vanniyar subcaste .

Not done. You need to provide a reliable source. - Sitush (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 November 2014

Origin

The name Vanniyar is derived from the Tamil word 'Vanmai' which means valor. Agni,the God of Fire is connected with Regal office,as kings hold in their hands the fire wheel or Agneya chakra. The Vanniyars of South India considered as a representative of the Non-Aryan,a Dravidian Rajput Element. In Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka Vanniars while referring their caste in circumstances and rituals, subtitle with the phrase 'Agnivanshi' denoting their clan. At Sirkazhi Vaideeswaran Temple Inscriptions about Vanniyar Puranam are seen. It denotes that,at ancient times there is two asuras known as Vatapi and Mahi, worshipped Brahma and obtained immunity from Death and subsequently they garrisoned the Earth. Jambuva Mahamuni,performed a Yagam,or sacrifice by power.soon Armed Horse men sprung from the flames,undertook twelve expeditions against them and destroyed them. Their leader then assumed the government of the country under the name Rudra Vanniya Maharaja,who had five sons,the Ancestors of Vanniya Caste. This Tradition alludes to the destruction of the city of Vatapi by Narasimhavarman,the king of Pallis or Pallavas. In the Classical tamil poem Kalladam,which has been attributed to the time of Thiruvalluvar,the author of the sacred Kural,Vanni is used in the sense of King. Kamban, the author of Tamil Ramayana,uses it in a similar sense. The vanniyans of agnikula race, can be classified as Ruthra Vanniyar, Agni Vanniyar, Sambu vanniyar, Brahma vanniyar, and Indra Vanniyar.

Historical references

The Titles," Indicating Authority,Bravery and Superiority," assumed by them are Nayakar,Varma,Padaiyachi (Head of an Army), Kandar, Chera, Chola, Pandya, Sambuvarays, Kadavarayas, Kalingarayas, Mazhavarayas, Samattiyars, Udaiyars, Kondiyars, Nainars, Sozhaganars, Munaiarayas and Kachirayas,Goundan and Kavandan. Some say that they belong to Chola race,and that, as such, they should be called as Chembians. They also bear the Sozhaganars title indicating their chola origin. The Zamindars of Pichavaram, UdayarPalayam, Ariyalur, M Parur, Thiruvidaichuram, Manimangalam and Sivagiri are all Vanniya By Caste. In North East Sri Lanka,Triconamalee are ruled by Vanniyans and Vanniyachi's. A well known verse of Irattayar in praise of Kanchipuram Ekambaranathaswmi refers to the Pallava King as being of the Sambu Race. The latter Descendants of the Pallava apparently tookc Sambuvarayar and Kadavarayar Titles.

History

- From 240 AD to 943 AD - Pallava Empire - From 943 AD to 1313 AD - Chola Empire - From 1278 AD to 1456 AD - Kandavas, Sambuvarayar, Kadavarayar dynasty - From 1456 AD to 1798 AD - Kalingarayar, Naicker Dynasty as poligar, chiefians under feudral rule of vijiyanagar empire and arcot nawab - From 1798 AD to 1947 AD - British Rule, but most of the villages & towns are under the direct rule of Vanniar Gounder, Naicker, Reddiar and Padayachi zamindars. - - From 1947 AD to still date - Tamil Nadu Toilers Party, Common Wheel Party and PMK dominate parts of North Tamil Nadu in electoral junctions.

Caste titles

The Vanniyars were known as Vanniakula Kshatriyas and Padayatchis. Depending upon the status, the members of the Vanniyar caste use titles such as Padayatchi, Gounder, Naicker/Nayagar, Kander/Kandar, Palli in Tamil Nadu, in Karnataka they are called Tigala or Thigilaru with a common suffix of Gowda and Nayakar. In Andhra Pradesh, Vanniars are usually known as Pillai, Agnikula, Kshatriya, Vanne Kapu or Naik. There are 92 different names or sub caste/sub titles given for Vanniya Kula Kshatriyas. This can be seen in the book written by A.K.Natarajan of Vanniyar sangam. The sub caste like Gounder, Naicker, Kandar, Padaiyaachi, Raju, Palli e.t.c.

Demographic spread

Vanniyars live in an area where three South Indian states intersects. They currently predominate in northern Tamil Nadu)whereas sizable numbers are found in southern Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. In these latter Indian states they are in sizeable mass primarily due to migration of other sects from outside and vice versa. In terms of population they are the most populated community in Tamil Nadu (Both as Vanniars) and Pondichery.

Vanniyar in Sri Lanka

Main article: Vanniar (Sri Lanka) Vanniar or Vannia is a title of a feudal chief in medieval Sri Lanka who ruled as a tribute payer to any number of local kingdoms. It was also recored as that of a name of a caste amongst Sri Lankan Tamils iin the Vanni District of northern Sri Lanka during the early 1900’s. It is no longer used as a name of a caste or as chiefs in Sri Lanka. There are number of origin theories for the feudal chiefs as well as the caste as coming from modern Tamil Nadu state or as an indigenous formation. (see Pandara Vannian)

Vanniyar outside India

Vanniyar also migrated to South Africa, Malaysia, Singapore, Seychelles, Mauritius and Fiji as part of the great Tamil diaspora. Variant Vanniyar titles such as Govendar, Naicker and Padayachee are used amongst their descendants.

Vanniyar Charities

The Vanniyars may be linked in tradition to the vanni tree (prosopis spicigera), a holy tree in Hindu tradition.Kulasekhara,one of the early travancore kings,and one of the most renowned alwars reverenced by the srivaishnava community belongs to them.Vanniyars celebrate his anniversary in Parthasarathy temple Chennai even now.The Vanniyars have the right to present the most important camphor offering of the Mylapore Kapaleeswarar Temple.The Ekambaranathar Temple at Kanchipuram built by them.Likewise the Chidambaram Nataraja Temple is founded by Swetavarman,a Pallava king.

Saravanandhayalan (talk) 05:16, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 06:25, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Recent revert

I've have just recently reverted some changes here. I borrowed the cited source from the library some time ago and feel sure that I would have included the information if it had been in the thing. Can anyone provide a quotation from it, please? - Sitush (talk) 08:38, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

-- Hi Sitush, I just provided a reference for the statements, from the same author whose book you borrowed from the library. Regards, Merkcid (talk) 13:39, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, but I was after a quotation from the book here on this talk page. - Sitush (talk) 13:47, 6 February 2015 (UTC)