Talk:University of Notre Dame/Archive 3

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Link to Notre Dame Queer Film Festival

There seems to be some kind of concerted effort by IPs to remove (without comment) the "See also" link to the Notre Dame Queer Film Festival. To me, having such a wikilink is appropriate, as the film festival itself seems notable enough (given its content and controversy) to have its own article. If the vandalism continues, semi-protection of the article might be appropriate. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 21:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The film festival is not as important as the meaning for the school's name or the alumni. The event is not notable. Notre Dame is noted for so many other things that are not in the see also section. I will remove the link and it should stay removed as it is questionable whether or not a film festival with little notability should even have a wikipedia page. The creator of the page is affilated with the film festival and wikipedia is not meant for self promotion. Toolslay 23:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Image

I uploaded an image of Notre Dame's seal. I will place it in the article unless you have any objections. Image:NotreDameSeal.png --Pgp688 (talk) 18:04, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:NotreDameSeal.png

Image:NotreDameSeal.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 08:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Notre Dame Leprechaun.png

Image:Notre Dame Leprechaun.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Changes

I was working on improving this article on a subpage of mine for a few weeks before Christmas, and decided that I probably did most of what I could do by now. I mostly just worked with the Manual of Style and integrated the "Reputation" list into prose (I think I got everything that I could find references) and added history and alumni sections. Anyway, I feel that there is still much that could be added (I skipped a lot of history from 1921-1972, the research section could be expanded, and so could the campus section) but it all needs to be referenced. I tried to (somewhat) follow the layout of the currently-Featured Article Michigan State University, so that and other Featured Articles in Category:FA-Class Universities articles could be referenced to improve the article anymore. Phydend (talk) 15:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

images

I removed the wordmark from the infobox today per the non-free content criteria. Criterion 3a reads, "As few non-free content uses as possible are included in each article and in Wikipedia as a whole. Multiple items are not used if one will suffice; one is used only if necessary." Both the seal and the wordmark serve only to identify the university. Since they do the same thing, one can suffice. Cheers! Esrever ^(klaT) 18:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, that makes a lot of sense. I only added the image because someone had uploaded it and added a Fair Use Rationale without adding it to the article. I think, though, under the same rationale, that Image:Notre Dame Leprechaun.png should be removed also. There is already an image of the "interlocking ND" that represents the sports teams, so the leprechaun seems too much, especially since there is an article about the leprechaun with the image on it. Thoughts on this? Phydend (talk) 19:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Though not part of this review, I favor your solution here. Before reading this article, I thought ND's colors were green! Amerique^dialectics 02:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

GA Review, in progress

Noting things that I come across that I don't have the time or inclination to fix myself here. This review on my part will proceed over three days, and I'll allow a week afterwards for any corrections or arguments to be made in response to my observations here before passing or failing this article. Amerique^dialectics 01:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Run-on sentence, punctuation, italics problems: "While the school has been criticized for its slow response to the needs of homosexual students - The Princeton Review ranks the university highly among schools at which "Alternative Lifestyles [are] Not an Alternative",[89] it has been commended by publications such as Hispanic Magazine - ranking the university ninth on its list of the top–25 colleges for Latinos - and the "Journal of Blacks in Higher Education" for raising the graduation rates of its African-American students." (Also, where has it been criticized, and what do Hispanics and African Americans have to do with this in particular?) Amerique^dialectics 01:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Section structure is a bit confusing. The first paragraph of "Academics" contains information pertaining to the student body, while the section labeled "Studies" contains information I would expect to see lead an "Academics" section. Amerique^dialectics 01:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Per WP:MOS "Numbers that begin a sentence are spelled out as words," also, this sentence is clunky: "21 of these teams compete in the Big East Conference, while football is Independent, both fencing teams are in the Midwest Fencing Conference, the hockey team is in the Central Collegiate Hockey Association, and the men's lacrosse team is in the Great Western Lacrosse League. Amerique^dialectics 01:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• I fixed some syntax on this, but ADs don't typically "lead" sports teams, unless they are the coach of one. It may be too much detail in any case: "Today the sports teams have been led by athletic director Kevin White since 2000.[131]" Amerique^dialectics 02:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Under University_of_Notre_Dame#Co-educational_institute, the article discusses the development of ND through the twentieth century, and introduces the admission of women in the 1970s in a way that implies further campus development ceased or in some way was affected by that. (Although, in that vein, it may be interesting to discuss what impact Title IX regulations had on the school's athletic programs. Perhaps further campus development did cease as a consequence of the money that was diverted from men's athletics!) Amerique^dialectics 02:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• I've fixed some of the things mentioned here and wanted to mention them in case they were controversial changes. On the first point, I changed the structure of the sentence and added a reference other than The Princeton Review that criticizes the school for its lack of diversity in many areas. Additionally, I split the sentence into two sentences, one on the criticisms and the other on the commendations (I also added another reference that actually mentions the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education commending the school. I made the studies section a sub-section of the academics section, and moved most of the information about students to that section (I left the total number of students there because of the faculty ratio, but that might not be that important and could probably be removed). I haven't looked at the other points yet, but will do so later if no one else works on them. Phydend (talk) 16:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

As I read the article cited, the author was not criticizing ND for its "lack of diversity," but for "restrictions and quasi-oppressive policies deemed necessary... to maintain the Catholic character of the university." Examples she offered being the absence of coed dorms, the banning of Billy Joel for his song lyrics, and the denial of official club status to a group called "Gays and Lesbians of Notre Dame and Saint Mary's," among other incidents. Georgetown University has a section that might provide a model for how to handle this sort of controversial information here: Georgetown_University#Jesuit_tradition. Amerique^dialectics 02:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, re: section structure, Georgetown's seems to be clearer. There doesn't seem to be an obvious reason to hold on to the "Studies" label. I would lead Academics, following that brief intro that's there, with "Colleges," "Graduate and professional schools," "Libraries" then the rest, unchanged. Amerique^dialectics 03:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Some requests for clarification from the history section:

• “According to correspondence of the early French Jesuit missionaries, one of the first missions in northern Indiana was founded for the neighboring Potawatomi and Miami Indians on the St. Joseph River in about the year 1685.”

Was the mission founded before the chapel was built? Amerique^dialectics 20:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• “This chapel was still standing when Father Sorin, a French Holy Cross Priest, came to Notre Dame in 1842.”

What happened to the orphan asylum? Amerique^dialectics 20:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• “Historical studies have shown that the Potawatomi Indians, partly because of the strong faith of Leopold Pokagon, also played an integral role in the founding of Notre Dame, with Pokagon appealing the bishop to send him a Catholic priest to help convert his tribe.”

Did the Bishop send Fr. Sorin up for this purpose? Did ND educate Indians? Amerique^dialectics 20:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• “Sorin began the school using Badin's old log chapel to house his priests and students, and slowly began to build his own additions to the university.”

According to Fr. Jenkin's inaugural address, which I read to gain some context into all of this, there is a far more interesting story here. Fr. Sorin had 300 dollars to build ND in two years or the land title would revert back to the Church. Although I don't immediately see how the Congregation of the Holy Cross was an entity legally distinct from the Church. Amerique^dialectics 20:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• “More students attended the college and the first degrees were awarded in 1849.”

How many students first entered the college?

• Sort of an obvious question, but what role, if any, does the Congregation of the Holy Cross still play in governing the university? Amerique^dialectics 20:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• With regards to the early missionary presence, it may be outside of the scope of this article, but it would be interesting to discuss what impact the French and Indian Wars had on the decision to build the university in Indiana. Amerique^dialectics 21:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Although I am not a sports guy, I've been reading Shake Down the Thunder: The Creation of Notre Dame Football just because all I knew about ND prior to reading this article, apart from the fact it's a prominent Catholic university, was that it featured until recent times a hugely successful football team. However, had I not known that myself, (and probably everyone in the English speaking world is at least vaguely aware of this) I wouldn't have been able to especially discern or appreciate the significance to the university of this fact from reading this article. The way athletics is presented in this article, I would say, would qualify as "good" for an article about any other university without a program like Notre Dame's. But for an article about Notre Dame, where athletics played such a central role in the university's cultural and capital development, it seems like sacrilege to neglect how, for instance, the early ND was an ecumenical institution with an open admissions policy that admitted Protestants and Jews, and how the early Protestants were the one's who got the culture of football going at the school. Especially how ND was twice denied admission to the "Western Conference" on "theological grounds" that the athletic programs answered to priests, and how the university was forced to schedule creatively outside of its region and in doing so became even more well-known on a national level. Also, ND acted as headquarters of the C.S.C. in America; ND's president was the superior of the order, shouldn't this be given some weighty mention in the governance section of the article? Amerique^dialectics 08:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Here is something else that seems neglected: Apparently, in 1924, some Notre Dame students got it on with the Klan.Notre Dame Vs. The Klan: How the Fighting Irish Defeated the Ku Klux Klan Amerique^dialectics 23:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so I've stuck some questions I've answered to my own satisfaction here. As the article stands, I think it's close to passing GA, but obviously a lot of work could be done on sports in relation to ND's development through the 20th century, not to mention the development of the governance structure of the university. In addition to that, the potential POV problems as pertaining to the admission of women in the 1970s and student/alumni criticism of the university today are primarily what is keeping me from passing the article as it stands right now. Again, I'll leave a week for any edits or arguments to be made in response to this review before passing or failing this article. Holler at me if you have any questions. The article looks great otherwise. Regards, Amerique^dialectics 02:19, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Philosophy Department

Please stop adding the "triumvirate" of Philosophy professors. These are not even the most notable philosophy profs there, who would include Alvin Plantinga and Alasdair MacIntyre--Samuel J. Howard (talk) 04:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

rankings

Hmm.. Article seems to leave out rankings where Notre Dame didn't do so well or didn't even place, namely international ones by Shanghai Jiao Tong University, Times Higher Education, Newsweek etc. 128.83.167.129 (talk) 22:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:University of Notre Dame/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

A good article has the following attributes:

  1. It is well written. In this respect:
         (a) the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct; and
         (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.

• Rewrite: "The school's Catholic identity is evident around campus with the ornate Basilica of the Sacred Heart together with numerous chapels and religious iconography." I understand that you're trying to allude to the church influence on architecture here, but it sounds like you're implying that the "Catholic identity" is not evident in the students, faculty, and classes (which I imagine it is).
• Just specify which one: "...the oldest of which awarded..."
• What was the exact year? "...as early as 1849."
• Remove this booster cruft: "Many of the colleges' academic programs have been ranked highly in national publications..."
• Give an exact ranking and the year of the ranking: "...the university as a whole ranked in the top 20 nationally by U.S. News and World Report."
• Why is "CSC" needed after Father John I. Jenkins' name on this article in Wikipedia?
• Not needed in lead: "Additionally, the university's library system is one of the top-100 largest in the United States."
• Don't capitalize university: "More than 80% of the University's..." and throughout rest of article
• "each of which fields teams"
• "number near 120,000" sounds weird--perhaps "include approximately 120,000 alumni"
• If you say the numbers for the two preceding facts, you need it here too--i.e., how many?: "many members in the College Football Hall of Fame"
• "other sport teams, most members of the Big East Conference, have won accumulated 18 national championships throughout the years."
• "the spot of Sorin's original church, which"
• The London Centre section seems a bit anemic. If it gets its own section, it needs a bit more description of its history and usage.
• Needs to be dated (e.g., As of November 2008...) "Notre Dame has a student body population of"
• Italicize Newsweek Magazine
• May be true but seems kind of a childish and cheap ranking remark: "This program has been recognized previously, by U.S. News & World Report, as outstanding."
• Rankings section needs consistent italicizing and linking of magazine names.
• Citations should directly following punctuation--in Research section this is not always the case.
• No terminating punctuation in first sentence of Students section
• Italicize The Princeton Review
• Run-on sentence that's confusing: "However, it has also been commended by publications such as Hispanic Magazine, ranking the university ninth on its list of the top–25 colleges for Latinos,[99] and the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education for raising enrollment of African-American students."
• No terminating punctuation in second sentence of Residence halls section
• Remove POV: "...but many students live in the same residence hall for all four years fostering a strong sense of community."
• Remove POV: "...its Catholic identity permeates into student life."
• Need to fix or math doesn't pan out: "More than 93% of students identify as Christian, while over 80% are Catholics" → "More than 93% of students identify as Christian—over 80% Catholic, specifically."
• Just say three: "a number of newspapers"
• Capitalize "Internet"
• Major concern: Alumni section needs rework: (1) remove sweeping, empty statements like "many alumni are in the media", "Notre Dame alumni work in various fields"; (2) POV and not necessarily true--I imagine some of the famous alumni played for ND when it wasn't "high profile": "With the university having high profile sports teams, a number of alumni became a part of sports teams"; (3) consult some FAs to pattern this section after: Dartmouth College#Alumni, Cornell University#Alumni, etc.
• ND homepage not needed in External links since already in infobox
• Need to take care of red-linked names--per WP:Red links--only supposed to be used short-term

  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect, it:
         (a) provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;
         (b) at minimum, provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons;[2] and
         (c) contains no original research.

• I added a few citation tags
• Need to link publishers in citations as well

  3. It is broad in its coverage. In this respect, it:
         (a) addresses the major aspects of the topic;[3] and
         (b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details (see summary style).

• Some of the Foundations section goes into unnecessary detail and either needs to be removed or moved to a separate article that could be linked here. I can give suggestions of text to be removed if needed.
• Major concern: the History section jumps from 1921 to 1972 in one sentence, and then again from 1972 to 2005.
• Major concern: Are there no criticisms, scandals, or significant protests that have occurred at ND? You mention one in the Students section, but it is quickly covered up by a ranking. This needs to have some part in the article.

  4. It is neutral; that is, it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.

• Some places are POV, as indicated above.

  5. It is stable; that is, it is not the subject of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. Vandalism reversion, proposals to split or merge content, good faith improvements to the page (such as copy editing) and changes based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply. Nominations for articles that are unstable because of constructive editing should be placed on hold.

• No prior issues

  6. It is illustrated, where possible, by images.[4] In this respect:
         (a) images used are tagged with their copyright status, and fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
         (b) the images are appropriate to the topic, and have suitable captions.[5]

• First phrase is not a complete sentence (no preceding subject + verb) and doesn't merit a period per WP:MOS#Captions: "The University's historic "God-quad" with the "Golden Dome" of the administration building visible. Many of the oldest buildings on campus are around this area."
• No pictures in alumni section?
• Image:NotreDameSeal.svg needs a source.
• Why two pictures of the golden dome on the article?

Conclusion

I'm not sure all these issues (especially the major concerns) can be addressed within seven days, but sometimes editors surprise me. I will put the article on hold for one week until each item above is addressed/resolved. If it cannot pass this time, it can be renominated in the future. Article really needs to undergo a copy edit. Hope this helps! --Eustress (talk) 13:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Failing GAN, as no significant effort (or even talk-page response) has been provided since initial review. Please don't nominate for GAN unless willing to respond to review, as reviews take time. --Eustress (talk) 13:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)