Talk:United States/Archive 114

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Archive 114

National anthem file

I proposed the United States Navy Band instrumental recording (File:Star Spangled Banner instrumental.ogg) for the version of "The Star Spangled Banner" to infobox, rather than vocal recording by United States Army Field Band. Because it's more reliable. 49.150.13.247 (talk) 10:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Pueblo settlement image

Hi there, I want to suggest that we maybe exchange the Cliff Palace image with an image of a still populated Native American settlement, e.g. like the Sky City of Acoma Pueblo. The Cliff Palace image is in principle nice, but I find it more comprehensive to show an image that shows an ancient settlement AND one of contemporary Native Americans at the same time in one image. I now have edited the image caption of the Cliff Palace trying to point towards this. What do you think? Nsae Comp (talk) 19:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 August 2024

Please change the second source in reference footnote 18 from

U.S. Insular Areas: application of the U.S. Constitution Archived November 3, 2013, at the Wayback Machine, November 1997, pp. 1, 6, 39n. Both viewed April 6, 2016.

to

U.S. Insular Areas: application of the U.S. Constitution Archived from the original November 3, 2013, November 1997, pp. 1, 6, 39n. Both viewed April 6, 2016.

or similar because the link is dead. McYeee (talk) 18:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done and reference formatted with cite templates. Reconrabbit 20:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 August 2024 (2)

Please change [[Policies of states in the United States|is given to states and several territories]] to [[Federalism in the United States|is given to states and several territories]] in the lede. The article currently linked doesn't seem as related and is a stub. McYeee (talk) 18:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done – Dhtwiki (talk) 06:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 August 2024 (3)

Please change cite-note [d] in the infobox to be superscript. McYeee (talk) 18:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done – By placing efn on infobox line meant for area footnotes. Didn't see any other way (and efn wasn't displaying properly where it was). Dhtwiki (talk) 07:19, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Forgetting about something

You forgot to put and U.S.A! — Preceding unsigned comment added by NinjaMiura (talk • contribs) 22:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

With regard to what, the initials given in the lead? See MOS:USA, which deprecates the use of periods in that and similar abbreviations. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Update

It's been bugging me for awhile. On the (Top) section, it says the US economy accounted for 15% of the global economy in 2023. But then, on Economy section, it says the economy constituted for over 25% of global economy and 15% of purchasing power parity in 2023. Can we fix on the (Top) section so that it says the US economy accounted for over 25% of global economy and 15% of purchasing power parity in 2023?

Also, on the Sports subsection under Culture and society section, since the Paris Olympics ended almost week ago, shouldn't it be updated to say U.S. athletes won 3,094 medals (1,219 of them golds) since in Paris, Team USA won 126 medals, 40 of them golds? Hopefully, someone with authority for the article can fix this. Sorry for the inconvenience. Ryumikhail (talk) 19:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Excessive references

I like this article, but in my opinion the number of references (565; 579 on 26 July 2024) is excessive. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

The large number of references is unavoidable, even inevitable. The article "United States" is the most-read country article in English Wikipedia. In other Wikipedia languages, it often ranks second (after the main country that speaks that language). The U.S. is very powerful and has many detractors, so all statements and assertions—especially the positive ones—must be supported. They are otherwise challenged and can become full-blown disputes. Mason.Jones (talk) 18:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

@Mason.Jones: Russia and China are also very powerful, but this doesn't justify the huge amount of sources in the U.S. and Russia articles. JacktheBrown (talk) 10:57, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@Mason.Jones: the Italy article last year had 151 more references. It seems strange to me that the number of references here has increased compared to last year. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Not surprising, as "United States" has become far more prone to disputes, reverts, and disruption than other country articles. Editors have learned to back up even general statements with a firm source, including thorough documentation. Mason.Jones (talk) 20:22, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Compiling bibliographies and updating sources is a major activity of historians and scholars here on Wikipedia. Moxy🍁 11:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Our purpose.....Wikipedia, like other encyclopedias, provides overviews of a topic and indicates sources of more extensive information. Moxy🍁 18:54, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

This is a pretty good problem to have. Around 10k words is fairly large for a Wikipedia article, and United States is the most-linked article on the English Wikipedia,[1] so it gets more scrutiny than others. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 23:00, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

@Rjjiii: totally agree. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

@Rjjiii: the United States page is important and it's a pity that it isn't handled as such with regard to references. JacktheBrown (talk) 13:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

@Rjjiii: and it's strange that with so many Americans this page hasn't been condensed. JacktheBrown (talk) 13:48, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it needs to be condensed, it is far below the limit of 15,000 words. What is the issue with having lots of references? Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

15k words isn't "the limit", really that number is there so people who do not understand that articles are not meant to be the length of a book can have something in policy pointed out to them. I'll grant that 10k seems alright for this article.

The point here is that every claim in an article should be sourced: some claims require multiple sources, most are fine with just one. It scans to me that this article likely could use someone economizing the number of different sources used for all its claims. Remsense ‥ 诉 08:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Countries are big and complex with various aspects. A good, encyclopedic summary should still be long to cover that variety, but it should link to articles on individual subtopics. I would think most country articles should be similar in size to this one and have a similar number of citations. United Kingdom has 550, Brazil has 519, Italy has 451, Egypt has 316. These seem appropriate to me. If anything, it's articles like Gabon with 68 or Togo with 97 that need help to become more adequate summaries, although you could say they are also fine at the length they are. IndigoManedWolf (talk) 07:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 August 2024

38.25.16.57 (talk) 17:28, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Stop Calling the USA @America@, America is a continent with 3 sub continents: South, North and Central America. USA is USA. Everybody living in any subcontinent of America is american. Stop hijacking the term.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Remsense ‥ 论 17:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh no, not this again! I suggest that you read American (word) which explains why "America" refers to the US in English. The anglosphere regards the Americas as two separate continents: North and South America, and only one country in the Americas, the United States of America, has "America" directly in its name. Because of that, only those from the US are considered "American" in the English language. As this is the English Wikipedia, we refer to the US as "America" and people from the US as "Americans". -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 21:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, see FAQ question number 7 on this page, as well as the numerous previous talk page threads in the archives that deal with this issue. Dhtwiki (talk) 01:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 August 2024

The link to China goes to Taiwan and it is very clear Mainland China is meant so the link should go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China 2A02:1810:497:7200:7181:BC3E:EFA1:31E8 (talk) 19:07, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: The Republic of China, the current link, refers to mainland China from 1912 to 1949, which is the intended target. The Taiwan article refers to that republic as it is today on that island. The present-day China you've requested refers to the People's Republic of China. TheWikiToby (talk) 19:30, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 September 2024

I would like this to sat the work :MURICA; somewhere in the reading artical. 24.248.178.166 (talk) 16:40, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. CMD (talk) 17:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 September 2024

Respectfully, I state that in this article I'll perfome my best and remove the same citations and add another web or citation. Pistasolanki15 (talk) 10:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

 Note: The protection on this page is not tied to specific accounts, however if you have suggestions please do suggest them here. CMD (talk) 13:54, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

[j]

The [j] in the lede should be replaced to an [m] to look cleaner. DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:05, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

It's important you remove it because it makes the article look filthy. The letter "m" is better. Can u please hurry up? DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense how is my comment difficult to understand? You know that tiny "[J]" in the first paragraph of this article, please replace it with an "[M]" to make this article 1000x cleaner DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

can someone respond and change it? It's very important imo HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 22:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! @HumansRightsIsCool DisneyGuy744 (talk) 22:27, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

@HumansRightsIsCool wait why can't you make the edit for me? You have 985 edits DisneyGuy744 (talk) 22:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

hello? DisneyGuy744 (talk) 22:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Remember that Wikipedia is a volunteer service. Most people here are pretty busy doing their own stuff or editing other articles; they're not gonna be monitoring this page for most of the day to answer some people's questions.

The letter chosen for the explanatory notes are chosen by the software itself to be consistent with the other footnotes. We have no say in what the individual letter displays as, unless we change all of them which would be a big hassle for something that doesn't really matter.

Also, HumansRightsIsCool had their extended confirmed permissions removed in the past which is why they can't edit the article.

Cheers brother. TheWikiToby (talk) 23:16, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Indigenous peoples History Links

For the further information part of the Indigenous peoples section history for further information it links Native Americans in the United States page. But for the history section would it not be better to have it link to History of Native Americans in the United States page. For the history section of the page it should link to the page specifically about Indigenous history then the current more broad just about Indigenous in general? Aojrocks (talk) 05:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

That makes general sense to me, maybe add it with that justification and see if anyone reverts it? (In the visual editor, just double-click the "See also" or "Further information" (I forget the name) template and change the right field). Mrfoogles (talk) 16:35, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Jan 6 attacks being "widely described as an attempted coup d'état"

Just put back the being "widely described as an attempted coup d'état" statement back to the contemporary history section. A longer version was first added by @BootsED, removed by @Rjensen, put back by me, then shortened by @TheWikiToby as a sort of consensus version, which I think should be kept. In any case, I think given 4 editors and a number of reversions are involved, further deletions should be discussed in talk. (Because it's not clearly mentioned in the edit summary, this diff is where Rjensen removed the additional text). Mrfoogles (talk) 17:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

the problem is that scholars use coup to refer to the overthrow of the CURRENT government (that is an overthrow of Trump). Everyone agrees it was NOT an attempt to overthrow Trump. see Powell, Jonathan M., et al. "A Coup At the Capitol? Conceptualizing Coups and Other Antidemocratic Actions." International Studies Review 24.1 (2022): online here Rjensen (talk) 20:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I just changed the wording of the sentence.

The attack was widely described as an attempted coup d'état.

Changed to,

The attack was widely described as an attempted self-coup d'état. (A self-coup being when the current government illegally tries to retain power)

Does that resolve the issue now? TheWikiToby (talk) 20:30, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

@Rjensen: TheWikiToby (talk) 20:42, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

So yes, technically the attempt was a self-coup, not a coup d'état. A self-coup involves someone in power attempting to stay in power, while a coup d'état involves someone who is not in power attempting to gain power. However, most media isn't that specific when referring to the difference, so they simply called it a coup d'état rather than a self-coup. This is why my initial edit wrote that it was "widely described as an attempted coup d'état", not that it was a coup d'état. I also put that it was a self-coup after that. BootsED (talk) 21:14, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

yes that works forme. Rjensen (talk) 22:22, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Nice. TheWikiToby (talk) 22:27, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 September 2024 (2)

Somebody remove those redundant sources already or fix the citations! 64.189.18.28 (talk) 20:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Editors can clearly see the indicated issue already; you don't need to spam the talk page pointing it out further and it will not get resolved quicker as such. Remsense ‥ 论 20:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion of political polarization in contemporary history section

The current section essentially cites PEW and NBC polls, which talk about left-wing v. right-wing polarization, to say that polarization has increased, and then cites an Atlantic article to say that this was caused by the change of the topic of discussion to "sociopolitical debate on cultural issues", which doesn't say a lot by itself. I've changed it to explicitly describe left/right polarization, which all sources given explicitly support.

Also, I noticed the article doesn't actually have a clear source for this polarization contributing to Jan. 6: Britannica gives COVID-19 a lot of credit, so if polarization is mentioned, maybe that should also be? In any case, a source is needed and I've added a citation needed tag.

Some of the polarization bit may also be wrong. It says it "came to a head in the 2010s", but the only source for that is, I think, the PEW source saying that it as of 2014 was the worst polarization in 20 years in that year, because the study had been conducted then. According to Political polarization in the United States, "Polarization has increased since the 1970s, with rapid increases in polarization during the 2000s onwards." I'm pretty sure that sentence just needs to be deleted and replaced with maybe 2 sentences summarizing the main political polarization article. Mrfoogles (talk) 00:57, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the section is pretty egregiously recentist, and beyond that flat out wrong and clearly OR. Remsense ‥ 论 20:57, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 September 2024

Under the religious groups 'Mormonism' should be changed to 'LDS' as there's no such thing as Mormonism. It's called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. 98.146.164.238 (talk) 04:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Remsense ‥ 论 04:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Too many footnotes (Efn) in opening paragraph

There seems to be too many long explanatory footnotes (4) in the opening paragraph. This makes the introductory paragraph much less readable IMO.

The first regarding tribal sovereignty could be kept, as it is short, and it is not immediately clear what an "Indian reservation" is, it is genuinely explanatory information.

The second regarding territories is too long and unnecessary (it even lists uninhabited islands).

The third regarding land area can be removed or shortened, it is already in the Geography section.

The fourth can be removed and the Census and Population Clock added as sources. MarkiPoli (talk) 21:15, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The second note was lengthened because editors kept adding such minutiae to the text, overwhelming the lede with more sentences. An EFN was therefore created. The fourth note was added because official populations in U.S. articles must come from the U.S. Census Bureau, but some editors were actually replacing total U.S. population figures (decennial census or recent annual estimate) with the very unofficial population clock. The EFN put the clock in perspective. Both EFNs might be streamlined, but they are preferable to the chaos we had before. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

This is an example of what not to do..... if it's that complicated shouldn't be in the lead. Moxy🍁 22:01, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

"Complicated" statistics were repeatedly added to the lede, as regular text. Editors refused to roll them back, so they were rolled into EFNs. There are probably too many now, and they could be pared down. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:47, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 September 2024

Hello,

Kindly include the fact that nowadays, people refer to the US as simply "The States" as a shorthand colloquialism, both spoken as well as written.

Thank you. Mammoos 007 (talk) 09:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Remsense ‥ 论 11:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

This talk page has too many headers.

This talk page has too many headers. Some should be removed. Drewchasm (talk) 14:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

One potential issue is that those headers actually serve a purpose, which is organizing the article's contents. Remsense ‥ 论 14:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

There is a misunderstanding here. Drewchasm (talk) 14:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh! Indeed, sorry. They get archived automatically. Remsense ‥ 论 14:15, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Archiving takes place after 30 days, which is fairly aggressive. I don't think that it needs to be more so. One reason for the number of headers is that there have recently been many "Extended-confirmed-protected edit" requests, probably more than normal. These take up relatively little space on the page, even though every one gets its own entry in the "Contents" table. So, it is not as difficult to page down as the table of contents might suggest. Dhtwiki (talk) 00:51, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Spanish is a federally required language!

As part of the treaty that made Puerto Rico part of the United States the right of people to deal with the government in Spanish was guaranteed. The U.S. has been a bilingual country for over 100 years. 24.22.239.84 (talk) 14:19, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Puerto Rico is not part of the U.S. TFD (talk) 14:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Puerto Rico (a self-governing unincorporated territory) is not the rule but the exception to every rule. Also, "dealing with the government in Spanish" on some federal forms and toll-free calls doesn't translate into a bilingual country. Mason.Jones (talk) 17:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Not only was Puerto Rico not incorporated into the United States, but there is is no mention in the Treaty of Paris about language rights or the other territories of Cuba, the Philippines and Guam. TFD (talk) 19:46, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Puerto Rico is absolutely part of the US, it's an unincorporated territory. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 20:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The States

In the introductory paragraph, it notes that the United States is known by a number of different titles. As mentioned, it is known as the US, USA, United States, United States of America and America. I made an addition where the country is commonly known and internationally referred to as The States. This title is well known around the world to refer to the US. I don’t believe the edit should have been reverted. Duranged (talk) 02:55, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

And as you were told, this page has discussed whether it should be included there several times. You can disagree, but your edit was removed because it explicitly went against that existing consensus. Remsense ‥ 论 02:59, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Horible unsourced first sentence WP:LEADCLUTTER.....should be in Etymology section or a note with sources as most of our FA articles do Germany, Japan or even Sweden....tried to fix with this edit Moxy🍁 03:14, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Even in Names of the United States, "The States" only gets a single sentence. CMD (talk) 04:41, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Fully concur with Remsense and CMD. "The States" is far too casual for the lead of this overlong article (in terms of sociolinguistic register) and is more appropriate for the Names of the United States article. --Coolcaesar (talk) 05:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC), U

Agree. "The States" is very casual and nearly always conversational. It's often a conversational term confined to the UK and Ireland. Most others in the world use "US" or "USA". Mason.Jones (talk) 16:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely. We don't have to include every colloquial name that has been used in any context by any person at any time in history to refer to the U.S., such as "the States", "the U.S. of A.", or even "Murica" or "Merica". These names are only used colloquially and therefore trivial, and their relevance is simply not given in the context of a general overview article about the country, which is why we have a separate article for them. Maxeto0910 (talk) 17:25, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Well Remsense ‥ 论, when you say I was “told”, I don’t know what you’re referring to. I wasn’t told anything. User Maxeto0910 (talk) had mentioned that this edit had been inserted and deleted a number of times, and said the discussion should be taken to the talk page. So I later discovered in the archives section it had been discussed in previous talks, which he failed to mention. I don’t keep track of the hundreds of conversations going on in the talk section. Now, after reviewing some of those previous comments, along with the comments here, I’m not convinced there’s a valid argument to omit that reference from the lead paragraph. People have been saying here the term of “the States” is generally used just casually or typycially colloquially. Or that it is used primarily in places like the UK or Ireland. These are just opinions mostly filled with Original Research with no reliable citations. See WP:OR. I happen to know a number of people personally who live in a bunch of countries such as Greece, Australia and Israel. And all of them refer to the US in conversation as “the States”. So it can’t just be in the UK or Ireland. Internationally, people use that phrase as often as Americans use the phrase the “US”. It’s not one bit less colloquial. I don’t think we have a consensus here, with 4 to 7 people expressing their opinions. We need reliable sources to back up these opinions. The logic here makes no sense. We need more input. Duranged (talk) 20:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps a proper sentence or two with sources in the Etymology section may help. I understand the articles already bloated.... But this seems more relevant than many things that are already here.Moxy🍁 20:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

An n-gram for your amusement: been back to the States/US The importance of the word "back" shows the nostalgic element in the native name being used by those abroad, cf. been to the States/US where "the States" has only been massively preferred historically.-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 21:27, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Transportation section

I'm unfamiliar with proper sources on this topic.... the section needs revision or at the very least more sources. Is there an academic publication that covers this that we can use? Moxy🍁 20:22, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

"Privately owned railroads and trains were the dominant mode of transportation in the U.S. until the mid-twentieth century." The Source I found says horses/carriages? Moxy🍁 20:27, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I suppose we could make it "from the early nineteenth to the mid-twentieth century", so readers don't think we're including New Amsterdam. Mason.Jones (talk) 22:15, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Adding a reference to Hemingway in the literature section?

I'm a little surprised there's no mention of Ernest Hemingway or any of the "Lost Generation" writers in the section on American literature. While figures like Twain or Thoreau are, generally, more well regarded as writers in the United States. Figures like F. Scott Fitzgerald and Hemingway not only took America as their subject, but enjoy widespread influence and are historically relevant to the development of an American literature.

I'd like to back this up with more sources, but before I do, I'd like to see if there's anyone who works on this article who'd be receptive to this change. I think it would improve the article to include a sentence or two. GreenHillsOfAfrica (talk) 22:22, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

go for it. BarntToust^(Talk) 15:39, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Minor Question

I'm not familiar with the treatment of integral (grammar) articles on WP (e.g. the article "The" in "The Sun"), but in case my gut is right on this: shouldn't the initial word "The" in the lede be bolded? One doesn't say "I'm from United States of America" or "I'm from U.S."; the integral article "The" is always present as part of the name when it appears in a full sentence. 2600:1700:B7B0:950:7C6A:8E8E:B04A:83DC (talk) 15:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not part of the name, and we don't bold words just because they are articles which belong to another word which is written in bold. Also, when a country appears in a list, for example, it is written without its article. Maxeto0910 (talk) 16:37, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Separate disambiguation hatnote

Do we really need the newly added hatnote which separately distinguishes the country from the continent? I mean, I get that it's probably more likely for the average reader to be confused with America and the Americas than it is with any other term which has its disambiguation page linked. Nonetheless, it's still redundant since America (disambiguation) already lists the continent as its first entry. Also, readers who are confused by said state of affairs would probably click on the North America article anyway, where it is explained as well; it's literally the first term linked in the lead. Maxeto0910 (talk) 16:51, 16 October 2024 (UTC)