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Intro minor change proposal: moving one sentence on "four countries" to initial UK summary

Just to clarify: I have essentially moved one sentence from later in the intro to the second sentence which simply states that the UK is made up of 4 countries. The first two lines quickly summarise the UK and is included in most basic definitions of the UK. (The next paragraph is a more geographically focused paragraph and later paragraphs focus on purely political and government matters.) I have not changed the meaning or wording of anything.Titus Gold (talk) 13:13, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

This was discussed above when you previously tried to make these changes. You do not have consensus for such changes to the opening sentences of this article. The introduction has been stable for years, there is no justification for moving the sentence you are trying to. The first paragraph deals with the geography of the UK, the second paragraph handles the political makeup of the UK including about explaining the countries of the UK and devolution, and the third paragraph then deals with history. This structure makes sense, and its been this way for years. We should not mix up these different sections in the way you are trying to. RWB2020 (talk) 13:25, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

You're confusing this with the discussion about NI being a province, that has previously been discussed and resolved. Please read the talk page in full.

It should be clarified in the initial intro that the UK is made of 4 countries. Look at United States for example. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and England have stronger national identities than US states. With regards to stability, this is not a justifiable argument to avoid improving edits. Politics change all the time, the toponymic guidelines update was only released last year (2021). The initial intro must mention the 4 countries before delving into a bit more detail e.g geography and politics. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are not just political entities, they are countries, cultures and nationalities in their own right.

The most basic definitions usually include the UK being made up of 4 countries. Look at the toponym definitilinkon of the UK gov itself. Here the most important aspects of the UK definition are outlined:

"The United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy consisting of 4 constituent parts:

• 3 countries: England, Scotland and Wales^{[footnote 23]}
• 1 province: Northern Ireland." Titus Gold (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Multiple changes were made previously that had to be reverted including the moving of the sentences in question. And the structures of the introduction have previously been discussed on other occasions too. Theres no consensus to change the current stable wording that has existed for years. Changing the opening paragraph to just two sentences does not seem appropriate, nor is it in line with other country articles. The best place to mention about the countries of the UK is in the paragraph mentioning the main cities, and devolution, parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy. The issue of the makeup of the UK makes far more sense there, whilst the opening paragraph focuses on the geographical location of the UK. RWB2020 (talk) 13:53, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I disagree. The current version is fine and well-balanced. And anyone who says something "must" happen without saying why is unlikely to get agreement. Bazza (talk) 13:57, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I've very clearly outlined why: because the official definition of the UK says that the UK is constituted of 4 constituent countries. It doesn't even mention geography and politics. These aspects should come later on in the intro. The countries of the UK are geographical as well as having devolved governments. The terms "England" and "Scotland" for example are a geographical terms, not political and so should come in the opening sentence. The term "Scottish government" or "Senedd" are political terms. Titus Gold (talk) 14:43, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Would these opening two sentences be agreeable? I've put in bold the addition. "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country  composed of the countries England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom is located in north-western Europe, off the north-­western coast of the European mainland." ... ThanksTitus Gold (talk) 14:46, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

That seems an unnecessary lengthening of the introductory sentence. The opening paragraph locating the UK seems helpful to a general reader, and I don't see an advantage of mixing up what are currently two nicely thematic paragraphs. CMD (talk) 15:11, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

No i dont support that change. I believe the current structure of the introduction works better, and that the mention of the countries of the UK is better placed in that second paragraph along with mentions of devolution, cities, and the fact the UK is a parliamentary democracy, monarchy. The opening paragraph is about geography of the UK. We deal with the islands of Great Britain and Ireland and the location of the UK in the world. The countries of the UK part are better dealt with separately in the second paragraph. I think having a single sentence saying the UK is a sovereign country that compromises of the countries....." does not flow well at all. Also by making such a change to the introduction it risks reopening the debate on if its appropriate terminology to use. Like if constituent country would be more appropriate rather than just country if that sentence is to be given such prominence. The bit about countries of the UK really does fit best with the devolution line that follows. Its far more relevant there. I prefer the status quo of the stable introduction which has been stable for years. but lets see how what others think about it too. RWB2020 (talk) 15:18, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis and RWB2020: I appreciate your concerns about keeping the introduction thematically neat and avoiding re-opening the debate over terminology, although I respectfully disagree with the idea that locating the UK geographically is more important to understanding the topic than explaining that it's a country made up of several main constituent parts, or the idea that the constituent countries are more relevant in a discussion of devolution/politics than the initial topic summary. I'm pretty confident that most overviews of the UK start by saying that it's a country made up of England, Wales, Scotland and part of Ireland (NI). Britannica, for example, combines both the geography and political units in its opening sentences. Regarding the concern about breaking up the thematically distinct current paragraphs, two of the three suggestions I made above attempt to use connectives/punctuation to integrate the political units seamlessly into the geographic description – although adding the countries as a separate short sentence might be clearer in terms of accessibility. What are your thoughts on this? Jr8825 • Talk 17:26, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

If there must be a change, accessibility sounds a worthy aim. Looking around the United States article takes this second sentence option, whereas Australia like this article dedicates the constitutional setup its own paragraph. CMD (talk) 01:01, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I'd support some sort of change to the lede, as the current version fails to provide a basic geopolitical definition before rushing ahead to give us a rather detailed account of its land borders, surrounding bodies of water, coastline length, etc... something like the United Kingdom (aka blah blah blah) is a country in north-western Europe consisting of (the constituent countries/parts/whatever) of England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, and then add the details about the geography and political structure. So, more or less what Titus Gold changed it to. A number of dictionaries, encyclopedias, UK government bodies, and international institutions, usually provide the fact that the UK is made up of England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland rather early in their definitions, because this information is a key part of what the UK is (it's the "United" Kingdom, after all).  Tewdar  15:56, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

• I agree with Tewdar and am in favour of such a change, in principle. The 4 main constituent parts are surely more immediately important to understanding the topic (the UK) than a geographical overview, so I think it would be a positive change to mention them as early as possible in the first paragraph. I experimented with some possible wording options in an above thread. I'm laid back about precise wording and given the UK's complex geopolitical fudge, any wording would obviously have to be agreed and picked apart first – although to reiterate, I still think this idea has potential to be an improvement if worded accurately. Regarding NI, both country and province are often seen as acceptable, although I know there have been past arguments over this and have no real preference. Jr8825 • Talk 16:51, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  We could just fudge it with consisting of England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland without any descriptors of their constitutional status at all... 👍  Tewdar  17:00, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

That'd be fine by me, and if that's what needed to find consensus, then fair enough. Although it's worth noting that the phrasing "The United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland" is already in paragraph 2 of the current lead, and has been part of the stable text for a long time. All that's being proposed here is shifting this wording up a paragraph and sandwiching it in before the geographical description. Jr8825 • Talk 17:07, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, 'countries', 'constituent countries', 'nations', or even 'parts' would all be reasonable possibilities, imo.  Tewdar  17:12, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

"sub-polities", anyone? 🤔  Tewdar  11:46, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

But does the fact the UK is made up of four countries not fit with the sentence that follows it about devolution? Moving the sentence about England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to the first paragraph, means that sentence on devolution no longer makes less sense, unless we basically repeat the sentence about England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, which would be unnecessary duplication. Devolution, along with constitutional monarchy, parliamentary democracy, and yes the fact the UK consists of four countries, is all better handled together in the same paragraph. The current structure of the paragraphs have been stable for years, and as soon as we start making partial alterations it leads to other possible changes. As this conversation has just shown with if it should say constituent countries, or if it should avoid saying countries at all. Its problematic to mix up the constitutional makeup of the Uk with the geographical stuff about the islands and location of the country. If England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are to be mentioned in the first paragraph it should absolutely say constituent countries, rather than just countries, especailly if we are putting it next to that first sentence. RWB2020 (talk) 17:20, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I would also prefer "constituent countries" if the countries were moved to the first paragraph (my above suggestions use this wording). In terms of devolution, one possible place it could move (and still fit in contextually) is at the end of the current 3rd para., which covers the political history of the union. Very roughly, it could look something like: "The United Kingdom has evolved from a series of annexations, unions and separations of constituent countries over several hundred years. The Treaty of Union between the Kingdom of England (which included Wales, annexed in 1542) and the Kingdom of Scotland in 1707 formed the Kingdom of Great Britain. Its union in 1801 with the Kingdom of Ireland created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Most of Ireland seceded from the UK in 1922, leaving the present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which formally adopted that name in 1927. Since the 1990s, [devolved governments, each with varying powers, have been set up in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland]." Jr8825 • Talk 17:34, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Either 'constituent countries' or 'countries' is fine. Then we just need to change The United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.[27] Other than England, the constituent countries have their own devolved governments, each with varying powers. Perhaps we could change it to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own devolved governments, each with varying powers. or something like that.  Tewdar  20:06, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, we don't need to repeat "countries" in every sentence.The United Kingdom consists of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland or The United Kingdom comprises England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would also work if we went on to describe them as countries in eg the next sentence. NebY (talk) 12:29, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

• Broad support It's baffling that we wait until the end of the second paragraph to mention that the United Kingdom comprises England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, even though it may well be the most meaningful starting point for the general reader outside the UK. That there's been comparative stability of these pragraphs doesn't so much reflect consensus as that any one editor querying it is swiftly told "that's consensus, that's stable" and moved on. NebY (talk) 17:36, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  Who says it's the most meaningful starting point? Many other country articles start with saying where they are. Belgium is a good example. So is Spain. And Portugal. Bazza (talk) 20:29, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  1, 2, 3, and 4 give us this information almost immediately...  Tewdar  20:46, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  Countries vary. One of our problems in discussing this article has been that there's no closely comparable multi-national partly devolved entity - see Talk:United Kingdom passim including for the differences from Denmark etc. AFAIK Wikipedia doesn't have an agreed structure for country articles, unlike say the contentious UK settlements guidelines, anf though naturally editors have borrowed approaches from other articles, significant differences between countries can and should lead to us bringing forward different aspects to help and inform the readers. NebY (talk) 12:21, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I still see no need to mix up the way the introduction is structured. Pointing out the UK is made up of four countries is political and constitutional, rather than the geographical information contained in the first paragraph which talks about the islands and the location of the country, inline with many other country articles. Considering this structure has ben stable for years demonstrates the current wording is not problematic. It is of course absolutely right we mention England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland in the intro, and we do that in the second paragraph explaining they are countries (something that not all are happy with using the term in that way) and that perfectly leads on to the bit about devolution. Looking at the second paragraph, i can see a case for moving the countries of the UK and devolution sentences to above the sentences about capital city and largest cities sentences. So that it would read;

"The United Kingdom is a unitary parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy.[note 2][23][24] The monarch, Queen Elizabeth II, has reigned since 1952.[25] The United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.[27] Other than England, the constituent countries have their own devolved governments, each with varying powers. The capital and largest city is London, a global city and financial centre with a metropolitan area population of over 14 million. Other major cities include Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool and Leeds.[26]"

That rearrangement does make sense to me as its the more important fact relevant for that paragraph. There is also legitimate debate to be had about if Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast should be included in that paragraph. But i continue to strongly oppose any change to the first paragraph, especially the first sentence which should not be altered and lengthened unnecessarily. That first paragraph rightly handles geography, we should not mix it up with constitutional/political constructs about how the UK is made up which more appropriately belongs in the second paragraph, to not mix up these separate issues. The fact this is reopening if we should call them countries, or constituent countries, or nations or sub-polities or fudge it and just say part or consists, demonstrates how problematic making alterations to sensitive parts of the introduction is. The current wording has been relatively stable for years, after many years of discussions and compromise to reach the status quo. Nothing has changed in that time to require a significant change and the stable status quo is always preferable to any instability over such an important article and introduction. RWB2020 (talk) 10:47, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this proposal by Tewdar. Sensible.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country consisting of the countries England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom is located in north-western Europe...

I would point out that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are "countries" and countries are used variously as geographical as well as political terms (not strictly political). Including them in the opening sentence is essential to any UK definition, as can be seen by most definitions by reliable sources of the UK including the UK Government itself as cited below.

After this initial sentence, we can then go into detail about geography and politics. This is just common sense. If a layperson cannot use Wikipedia to get an accurate definition of an article in an opening sentence/opening two sentences, then the article is severely lacking. Titus Gold (talk) 14:01, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I think (and reliable sources seem to generally agree) that the two most salient features of the United Kingdom are that it's a state (i) located in north-west Europe and (ii) consisting of England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Not (iii) "the state with the twelfth-longest coastline" or whatever. So we should say these two things first, imo.  Tewdar  19:08, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Also, it is incorrect that the first paragraph merely handles geography. In the first sentence, we also give our readers altnames and tell them it is a "sovereign country". We should probably tell them at this point that it is a "sovereign country, consisting of England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland" before we tell them anything else.  Tewdar  20:07, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

@RWB2020: Stability means the text has proven to be a workable compromise so far. Stability doesn't mean it's the best it can be, and it doesn't "demonstrate" there are no problems with it. Obviously it's not a crucial problem, but I still think introducing England, Wales, Scotland and NI so late in the lead is rather poor, for the reasons explained above. And stability definitely doesn't mean we shouldn't bother to improve upon things. Jr8825 • Talk 19:45, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

It looks like the "solution" thus far has been to relegate the information about the constituent parts into the second paragraph, hopefully avoiding the attention of drive-by pedants and angry nationalists of whatever persuasion...  Tewdar  19:58, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the issue is whether we prioritise the needs of UK readers - who are increasingly aware that it comprises four discrete countries - or those of a wider global audience, whose priority (I assume) is to know that it is a sovereign state in Europe. As we are a global encyclopedia, the existing established wording seems to strike the best balance. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:14, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

You think having the twelfth-longest coastline should be presented to our international readers before the constituent sub-polities?  Tewdar  20:35, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to a few tweaks. How about something like:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country in north-western Europe, off the north-­western coast of the European mainland. It includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. The United Kingdom comprises four countries: England; Scotland; Wales; and Northern Ireland which shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland. Otherwise, the United Kingdom is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, with the North Sea to the east, the English Channel to the south and the Celtic Sea to the south-west; the Irish Sea separates Great Britain and Ireland. The total area of the United Kingdom is 93,628 square miles (242,500 km2), with an estimated 2020 population of more than 67 million people.

Later paragraphs can be tweaked to fit. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:12, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I like it! 😁👍  Tewdar  22:08, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I think that is a reasonable compromise and am prepared to support that change. It does seem to fit well with the bit about Northern Ireland bordering the republic. If that change is made then the suggestion of moving the bit about devolution from the bottom of paragraph two to the bottom of paragraph 3 and rewording that sentence slightly may also flow better too without having to repeat the line about the UK consisting of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. RWB2020 (talk) 22:30, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I'd also be happy with this wording. One suggestion made above (which might possibly alleviate the concerns The Four Deuces voices below?) is to use the phrase "constituent countries" to describe England, Wales, Scotland & NI. Also, I prefer to avoid semi-colons in this particular context, given that it's an article readers with poor English are likely to read, as they're a relatively complex form of punctuation – although this may be personal preference. Jr8825 • Talk 23:28, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

The suggestion by Ghmyrtle is definitely an improvement on the current article, and we are getting closer to a sensible compromise.

However, based on the official UK GOV and dictionary definitions and for the sake of international knowledge of the 4 countries I think they should be included far earlier.

This proposal includes a mention of Europe and the countries in the initial sentence, similarly to the dictionary definitions and then goes into specific detail with no changes:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom or UK, is a sovereign country in Europe and consists of the countries England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom is located in north-western Europe, off the north-­western coast of the European mainland. The United Kingdom includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland. Otherwise, the United Kingdom is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, with the North Sea to the east, the English Channel to the south and the Celtic Sea to the south-west, giving it the 12th-longest coastline in the world. The Irish Sea separates Great Britain and Ireland. Titus Gold (talk) 22:31, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Strongly oppose changing the opening sentence in that way. Ghmyrtle's suggestion is a reasonable compromise that maintains the longstanding wording of the first sentence setting out location of the UK in the world, the second sentence remains about geography of the islands, and then the third sentence is improved as it does fit well by mentioning England, Wales, Scotland there along with Northern Ireland bordering the republic. RWB2020 (talk) 22:37, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Consistent with the EB lead, I would leave out the term country to describe the constituent parts. It says, the UK "comprises the whole of the island of Great Britain—which contains England, Wales, and Scotland—as well as the northern portion of the island of Ireland." We can therefore re-write the second sentence in the lead: "The United Kingdom includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles."

While the term country is frequently used, it is confusing because there are other definitions of the word. Northern Ireland for example would usually be considered to be part of the country of Ireland, while Cornwall would also be considered to be a country, although it is in England.

TFD (talk) 22:55, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I support Ghmyrtle's suggestions as they seem completely reasonable and informative. Mathsci (talk) 23:21, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Either is an improvement, Titus Gold's the greater. We're moving closer to the letter and spirit of WP:LEAD, to provide an opening paragraph that touches on key points of the subject without making the reader's eyes glaze over. We would still have that bewilderingly detailed listing of the various names for different parts of the sea, which may satisfy editors' needs to be precise and accurate but hardly helps either or a British or a wider global audience.

The Belgium article was mentioned as an example; Denmark's first paragraph looks a better model of delivering a variety of key points in one paragraph. without having to itemise seas and channels. NebY (talk) 15:07, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Well in the case of Belgium it handles their autonomous regions in the second paragraph, similar to the current method of handling the UKs constituent countries. The Denmark article is more complicated, bearing in mind if we are trying to make comparisons, Denmark is more similar to England, and Kingdom of Denmark is the United Kingdom. As complicated as the UK situation is, Denmark's is actually more complex, and the introduction of both articles has to reflect that clearly straight away. There is not similar confusion with regards England and the United Kingdom, as the names are entirely different compared to Denmark and the Kingdom of Denmark. Its not an article we should be basing the UK's introduction on. RWB2020 (talk) 16:45, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Also as the United Kingdom is an island nation, the geography of the UK covering details of the seas, the channel and main islands etc is more relevant and important than for articles about countries on the European mainland. RWB2020 (talk) 16:57, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

The phrase countries within a country has been used for the UK, that's just how it is, the differentiation is that the UK is sovereign whilst the 4 countries are not.

Could use the term "sovereign state" for the UK, and "countries" for the 4 countries to make a differentiation. RWB2020 seems to be opposed to any significant prominence of the 4 countries for some reason, which I'm not sure is helpful. All others seem to support to the two most recent suggestions, either Ghmyrtle or mine.

e.g similarly to my most recent suggestion, an option could be:

"...United Kingdom or UK, is a sovereign state in Europe and consists of the countries England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland." but I'd rather avoid a state/country debate if possible. Titus Gold (talk) 18:15, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Here we go. This is exactly why i oppose changes to the introduction, because now the use of sovereign country there is being questioned, just as others have questioned if we should use country or constituent country. The United Kingdom is a sovereign state and it is a country, it is absolutely essential that the article in the first sentence makes very clear the UK is a sovereign country, so we make clear it is both to avoid confusion. That has been a long agreed compromise over many years, along with the fact we just say country rather than constituent country for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Your proposals are totally unacceptable and i strongly oppose them. Your proposals will totally destabilise this article and lead to months of dispute. The idea that we refer to England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as countries in the opening sentence but not the United Kingdom which the article is about and which qualifies as a country on more grounds, is totally outrageous.

I continue to support Ghmyrtle's reasonable compromise and it seems several others do too, but im not going to support any further change than that proposal because its exactly this slippery slope that leads to totally messing up the introduction. RWB2020 (talk) 18:31, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Just an option! I even dismissed it myself because some people are sensitive to the term "soverign state" for some reason, clearly. Titus Gold (talk) 01:28, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

These seem to be the two options then. Any other editors want to weigh in, or make a better suggestion?

Option A

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom or UK, is a sovereign country in Europe and consists of the countries England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom is located in north-western Europe, off the north-­western coast of the European mainland. The United Kingdom includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland. Otherwise, the United Kingdom is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, with the North Sea to the east, the English Channel to the south and the Celtic Sea to the south-west, giving it the 12th-longest coastline in the world. The Irish Sea separates Great Britain and Ireland.

Option B

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country in north-western Europe, off the north-­western coast of the European mainland. It includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. The United Kingdom comprises four countries: England; Scotland; Wales; and Northern Ireland which shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland. Otherwise, the United Kingdom is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, with the North Sea to the east, the English Channel to the south and the Celtic Sea to the south-west; the Irish Sea separates Great Britain and Ireland. The total area of the United Kingdom is 93,628 square miles (242,500 km2), with an estimated 2020 population of more than 67 million people. Titus Gold (talk) 01:30, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Why not leave out the term country, per WP:JARGON? The term "country" has a meaning that is unique to the UK, unlike the terms state and province. TFD (talk) 03:55, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Option B looks reasonable except that there seems to be unnecessary duplication in "...a sovereign country in north-western Europe, off the north-­western coast of the European mainland...". How about: "...a sovereign country in Europe, off the north-­western coast of the continental mainland...". (Personally, I would insert the word "located" before "off", but I know some editors dislike that.) Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:28, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Support option B or Ghmyrtle's amended version of B. Strongly oppose option A. We should handle the main geographical location of the UK in the first sentence, rather than having to say its location in two sentences. Option B works well, with the first sentence the fact the uk is a sovereign country and its geographical location in Europe, second sentence the geographical information of the country being the two main islands + smaller islands. third sentence that the UK consists of 4 countries and Northern Ireland sharing land border with the Republic. That flows well and it maintains all the current terminology agreed over many years, just gives the countries of the UK line much more prominence by being early in the first paragraph rather than near the end of the second which is a reasonable compromise and does make sense. RWB2020 (talk) 09:00, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I still think fudging it is the best solution...

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country in Europe, off the north-­western coast of the continental mainland. It comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland; otherwise, the United Kingdom is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea, the English Channel, the Celtic Sea and the Irish Sea. The total area of the United Kingdom is 93,628 square miles (242,500 km2), with an estimated 2020 population of more than 67 million people.

If "it's complicated", we can explain all the subtleties later. We're "officially" calling the sub-polities "constituent countries" in the infobox anyway, so the "long-standing compromise" of calling them countries in the lede seems totally pointless.  Tewdar  07:37, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

That's a well-crafted first paragraph. I'll be picky and say that I'd prefer ...Ireland; otherwise... and ...twelfth-longest... but I won't fret if either or both of those don't happen. Bazza (talk) 08:28, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Done. Also, as I said before, we can then avoid reduplicating later by changing the bit about the constituent countries to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own devolved governments, each with varying powers.  Tewdar  09:10, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I like that proposal, except for the over-long first sentence. I'd prefer: "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country in Europe, off the north-­western coast of the continental mainland. It comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland; and includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles...." Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:17, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with breaking the opening sentence into two for readability. Mathsci (talk) 10:44, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Done. Any objections to my replacing the semicolon with a comma?  Tewdar  13:22, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Looking good. If we're keeping the list of seas, can we move through it more swiftly and not bog down our readers? For example,

...otherwise, the United Kingdom is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea, the English Channel, the Celtic Sea and the Irish Sea, giving it the twelfth-longest coastline in the world.

Anyone that knows the term "Celtic Sea" probably doesn't need telling it's to the south-west, and anyone that doesn't know it won't understand the shape of the United Kingdom any better for being told that. NebY (talk) 11:14, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Done. Probably better like this.  Tewdar  13:29, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I should have been a little more explicit; I included the Irish Sea there so that "The Irish Sea separates Great Britain and Ireland." can be removed entirely NebY (talk) 13:55, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I changed it, let's see what others think...  Tewdar  14:08, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

As an aside, as this thread was progressing I was looking around other country articles. Unfortunately, they’re notoriously poor quality generally. One of the few FAs is Australia. I do think the 4 paragraph lead on that article is quite lean and de-cluttered and could be emulated. It happens to be about an island country too. The first paragraph doesn’t recite the seas around it and instead gives some broader and perhaps more interesting geographic info. Just a thought. Perhaps of greater interest to a global readership would be some basic topography (uplands/lowlands) and temperate climate/gulf stream etcDeCausa (talk) 11:38, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

How about something like......giving it the twelfth-longest coastline in the world.. Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are more mountainous than England, which mainly consists of lowland terrain apart from the north and west. The warming effect of the Gulf Stream brings comparably mild winters, especially in the west. The total area...? Tewdar  14:05, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

While I like this wording, I think it's too much detail for the lead. In fact, I agree with @DeCausa about the seas. Other than the English Channel, which is particularly important as it separates the British Isles as a whole from the continent, I'm not sure the other seas really warrant lead space as it leads to a more barrage of descriptive detail, particular for the first paragraph. Jr8825 • Talk 14:09, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

So, just the British Sea, oops, English Channel, and no topography or climate, then? We could actually just replace the Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea, the English Channel, the Celtic Sea and the Irish Sea with "bodies of water" or similar?  Tewdar  14:13, 29 May 2022 (UTC) edited  Tewdar  14:34, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

We could perhaps say "separated from the north-­western coast of the continental mainland by the English Channel" if we go down this road.  Tewdar  17:50, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

A brief enough summary of topography for this para might be difficult. Climate may be more significant and easier to do eg The climate is temperate with generally mild winters due to the Atlantic Gulf Stream (sneaking in a mention of which ocean the UK's on the edge of, but skip that if we're still listing seas as below). NebY (talk) 14:21, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh and btw, Ghmyrtle’s proposal looks good. DeCausa (talk) 11:44, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Taking Ghmyrtle's proposal and most of Tewdar's proposals together forms proposal C.

C

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country in Europe, off the north-­western coast of the continental mainland. It comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland; and includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland; otherwise, the United Kingdom is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea, the English Channel, the Celtic Sea and the Irish Sea, giving it the twelfth-longest coastline in the world. The total area of the United Kingdom is 93,628 square miles (242,500 km2), with an estimated 2020 population of more than 67 million people.

I would separate the 4 countries sentence from the island geography as this might be slightly confusing for readers, forming option D.

D

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country in Europe, off the north-­western coast of the continental mainland. It comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland; otherwise, the United Kingdom is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea, the English Channel, the Celtic Sea and the Irish Sea, giving it the twelfth-longest coastline in the world. The total area of the United Kingdom is 93,628 square miles (242,500 km2), with an estimated 2020 population of more than 67 million people. Titus Gold (talk) 14:16, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

New glitch, sorry. Maybe I've missed it, but "twelfth-longest coastline in the world" doesn't seem to be in the body of the article per WP:LEAD and the body's reference for the length isn't loading even after ignoring security warnings, so I can't say the claim is in it. Geography of the United Kingdom and Coastline of the United Kingdom don't seem to have the claim either, and as How Long Is the Coast of Britain? Statistical Self-Similarity and Fractional Dimension, it's inherently debatable. A source in Coastline of the United Kingdom has a table which, on sorting the countries, seems to give 16th. Can we find a source for 12th (one that isn't WP:CIRCULAR)? NebY (talk) 16:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

It's 12th according to this, (excluding Antarctica). This is the only reliable source I've found.

https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/coastline/ Titus Gold (talk) 16:26, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Aha, yes! Rather a different list. NebY (talk) 16:48, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I should probably point out that, as long as we're measuring all the coastlines with the same measuring stick, Mandelbrot's famous article is not particularly relevant for this question... 😂  Tewdar  16:31, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

The ranking seems to depend on the stick, which looks to me like a direct consequence of Mandelbrot's issue. NebY (talk) 16:53, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

The UK, with its rugged coastline and high Hausdorff dimension, will improve its ranking relative to other countries by using a shorter measuring stick, yes... strangely, the UK's rank drops with the World Resources Institute, which gives a larger coastline than the CIA Factbook... 🤔 Tewdar  17:08, 29 May 2022 (UTC) edited  Tewdar  17:22, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Also, I doubt that having the twelfth, or fourteenth, or whateverth longest coastline is particularly notable. We even did better than that at Eurovision this year...  Tewdar  16:42, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, and there's even less cachet to "maybe the 12th, maybe the 16th".

Ah, we have List of countries by length of coastline which ranks the UK 12th and includes a coast-to-area ratio. That's probably the point of interest, that the UK has lots of coast for its size - except that sorting that list by ratio puts the UK at 92nd, and we've never done that badly at Eurovision. NebY (talk) 17:08, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Let's leave it out - this lede workshop is difficult enough without debating fractal geometry too! 😂  Tewdar  17:16, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Leaving it out works for me. I see List of countries by length of coastline – which has the UK at 12th (CIA TWF) and 16th (WRI), depending on source – raises questions about the comparability of the CIA TWF figures as well. We're not on firm ground. NebY (talk) 17:29, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Option C or D then? (with coastline ranking removed) Titus Gold (talk) 18:03, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

D rather than C. But I like de Causa's point about adding topological and/or climate info. Tewdar's "bodies of water" was interesting but made me think of eg Lake Victoria so maybe "sea" instead? I'd like to offer

E (itemising sea names)

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country in Europe, off the north-­western coast of the continental mainland. It comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland; otherwise, the United Kingdom is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea, the English Channel, the Celtic Sea and the Irish Sea. Its climate is temperate with generally mild winters due to the Gulf Stream. The total area of the United Kingdom is 93,628 square miles (242,500 km2), with an estimated 2020 population of more than 67 million people.

F (not itemising, copy-edited that sentence, swapped two, copy-edited population)

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country in Europe, off the north-­western coast of the continental mainland. It includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. The United Kingdom comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Apart from the land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, it is surrounded by sea. Its climate is temperate with generally mild winters due to the Gulf Stream. The total area of the United Kingdom is 93,628 square miles (242,500 km2), with an estimated population of more than 67 million people in 2020. NebY (talk) 18:58, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

"Sea" works fine as a generic replacement for "body of water"  Tewdar  19:15, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I think E. Titus Gold (talk) 21:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I like C and D, but not E or F. There seems to be no reason to mention the climate so soon (cf Nancy Mitford's novel). Mathsci (talk) 21:40, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

My preference is the original Ghmyrtle suggestion with England/Wales/Scotland and NI mentioned in the line about sharing a land border with the republic. That seemed to flow the best. But i can accept D. I dont support C because its unhelpful to put the E/W/S/NI point in the same sentence as talking about GB and the island of Ireland, its much better having those as separate sentences. I also dont think we should include climate in the first paragraph of the introduction so not E/F. RWB2020 (talk) 07:26, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

My preference is for E, though I'd be happy if the reference to climate were to be removed. The statement in F that "it is surrounded by sea" seems redundant as it's already been stated that it comprises islands (including part of an island). Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

E without the climate sentence is ok with me. RWB2020 (talk) 08:54, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

That would give us... The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country in Europe, off the north-­western coast of the continental mainland. It comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland; otherwise, the United Kingdom is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea, the English Channel, the Celtic Sea and the Irish Sea. The total area of the United Kingdom is 93,628 square miles (242,500 km2), with an estimated 2020 population of more than 67 million people.

A reasonable compromise, in my opinion...  Tewdar  09:04, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Very good! Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:56, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Good! A big improvement on the current article. NebY (talk) 11:19, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Yay for us! 🎊🎉😁👍🏆🥇 etc...  Tewdar  12:37, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I have just implemented this new intro paragraph. Please feel free to review it to ensure everything is in order. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 12:51, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for implementing this Tewdar. Titus Gold (talk) 13:02, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

It has been reverted by @Mathsci:, who claims there is "no consensus"...  Tewdar  13:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

WTF are you doing, @Mathsci:?!  Tewdar  13:15, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

The edits were messed up by User:Titus Gold as the diffs show: the infobox was deleted. Follow it yourself or, better still, please try out the new material in a sandbox, as others would do. I changed only parts of the body of the article: the lede unfortunately remains unchanged. Mathsci (talk) 13:26, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

@Mathsci: Pretty sure the "erm..." version fixed everything, no?  Tewdar  13:28, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Whatever went wrong with Titus Gold's edits, we now seem to be at the agreed version plus Tewdar's useful comma in para 2 (combined diff of today's edits to 14:32). NebY (talk) 13:48, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

• Would anybody support changing It comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles to "The United Kingdom comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, which includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles" or something like that?  Tewdar  13:53, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure this is necessary. It's fine as it is I think. Titus Gold (talk) 14:04, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

  This reads a little worse, I think partly because figuring out quite what that "which" refers to can make the reader stumble, even if not quite consciously (with the singular verb "includes", "which" must refer to the comprisement, but a plural "include" would also be unnecessarily demanding)

  . NebY (talk) 15:40, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I accidentally deleted the infobox, without realising and then undid my edit. Tewdar kindly made the new intro edit. Titus Gold (talk) 13:57, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I made the changes to the first para (using my own sandbox), removing the refs to "Coastal - CIA fact book" and making a wikilink from European mainland to "continental mainland". Missing commas, Oxford or otherwise, can be figured out by experts like Diannaa or anybody else. The changes to the first para were not made by Tewdar. Mathsci (talk) 13:59, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

In my sandbox, the parallel texts in User:Mathsci/sandbox#uk should have had Europe not the piped-link to Northwestern Europe (something I missed unfortunately, but corrected now). Mathsci (talk) 14:29, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Both you and Tewdar, whether by sandboxing or otherwise, produced results that were as good as anyone could ask of a first pass of a complex merge with existing links and references, and didn't even differ greatly! NebY (talk) 15:30, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Seems good now. I would also propose making a very similar edit to Great Britain.

Current: "Great Britain is an island in the North Atlantic Ocean off the north-west coast of continental Europe."

Proposal: "Great Britain is an island in the North Atlantic Ocean, off the north-western coast of continental Europe and comprises England, Wales, and Scotland."

I've also added this to the Talk:Great Britain talk page - please go here. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 15:58, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Intro amendment

Suerly it is quite important as perhaps the second sentence to refer countries that make up the UK? I have highlighted suggested additions/amendments in bold for easy visualisation.

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a sovereign country  in north-western Europe, off the north-­western coast of the European mainland. The United Kingdom consists of three countries: England, Scotland, Wales and the province of Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom includes the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. Northern Ireland shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland. Otherwise, the United Kingdom is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, with the North Sea to the east, the English Channel to the south and the Celtic Sea to the south-west, giving it the 12th-longest coastline in the world. The Irish Sea separates Great Britain and Ireland. The total area of the United Kingdom is 93,628 square miles (242,500 km2), with an estimated population in 2020 of over 67 million.

The United Kingdom is a unitary parliamentary democracy which employs a system of devolution from a central Westminster government to the devolved governments, of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, each with varying powers. The United Kingdom is also a constitutional monarchy and the current monarch, Queen Elizabeth II, has reigned since 1952.The capital and largest city is London, a global city and financial centre with a metropolitan area population of 14 million. Other major cities include Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool and Leeds."

Please note whether you are happy with this or recommend something else. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 00:27, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Strongly oppose this proposed change which goes against consensus that has existed for years on this article. A stable compromise was reached on the introduction and there is no need to make the radical changes proposed. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are all described as the four countries of the UK across wikipedia for years and nothing has changed to justify changing that. The introduction is currently structured well dealing with geography in the first paragraph and then dealing with the political stuff of parliamentary democracy and countries of the UK and devolution in the second paragraph, then history of the makeup of the UK in the third. That structure works well.

These proposed changes to the introduction and the idea we should no longer refer to Northern Ireland as a country risks creating huge instability on this and other articles as it will unpick the stable consensus that has existed for years. If we are not calling Northern Ireland a country, then we shouldnt call England, Wales or Scotland a country either. Strongly oppose any change to the introduction on these issues, it would open up a massive dispute that will waste everyones time for months in the arguments that will follow it RWB2020 (talk) 09:02, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what NI is officially, making this proposal basically flawed. It is commonly known as and referred to as a country and that is what counts. It's official status can be inserted and described later. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:25, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Also oppose. All four parts, should be given the same descriptive. GoodDay (talk) 21:49, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I have restored to the article to the stable version from a couple of days ago before excessive alterations to the introduction were made totally against consensus. We discussed this recently and there was no support for the changes the same individual tried to impose again. I strongly oppose these unacceptable changes which mess up an introduction that has been stable for years, and will revert such unnecessary alterations. RWB2020 (talk) 06:30, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I do not think the term “sovereign country” is appropriate. It is not consistent with other, multi-levelled states, whose intros state “[country name] is a country located [location]”. For example, Belgium is referred to as a “country” while being a multi-national state. As such the introductory sentence should be edited to bring it into line with other country pages on Wikipedia by removing the “sovereign” and link to the sovereign state page. ZElsb (talk) 20:57, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

References

References

Info Box Name Translations

While English is the only de facto official language, the use of Welsh, Irish, and Scottish Gaelic has increased on consciousness of late. For example, Welsh, Irish, and Scots translations for "Her Majesty's Government" have appeared on the Government of the United Kingdom page, as well as Welsh, Irish, and Scottish Gaelic translations for the appearing in the most recent Series C passport. I think it would be appropriate to include Welsh, Irish, and Scottish Gaelic translations of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and northern Ireland" under the English version as is the case in states with multiple official languages, for example Belgium. ZElsb (talk) 21:24, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Translations to be included would be; Welsh: Teyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon; Scottish Gaelic: An Rìoghachd Aonaichte na Breatainn Mhòr agus Eirinn a Tuath; and Irish: Ríocht Aontaithe na Breataine Móire agus Thuaisceart Éireann.

Scots (Unitit Kinrick o Great Breetain an Northren Ireland) could also be included, however it's lack of inclusion in the most-recent passport series could justify its exclusion for the time being. ZElsb (talk) 20:55, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Anthem

Anthem track could include words by English choir rather than American military band and could include both verses Ludo.gibson (talk) 10:51, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not aware of such a version existing in Wikimedia Commons, so you would have to source one. If the instrumental version is being played correctly, that the band is American is not relevant. The article is not about England. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:30, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Independence day (June 23) should be added to the box on the right in the section with the dates of the acts of union etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.61.230.6 (talk) 13:50, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: No sources support this. We would not put silly suggestions by fringe figures into the article. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:59, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

History section

Should the history section have different sub-headings? There are no dates mentioned except 21stC. There is also a mixture of key points, such as the union with ireland and other dates that are important but not to the union, such as 1918. Why not 1916 or 1923 which would be more relevant to the union? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:27, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

For a long while , the section used to have just two clear-cut sub-sections: Prior to and post the Acts of Union. That got lost along the way as multiple "improvements" to the article were made. DeCausa (talk) 19:43, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Infobox religion stats

An editor has been repeatedly changing the figures and categories of Religion in the infobox without explaining why. The current categories are those used in the census and I believe that merging or relabelling them is WP:SYNTH or WP:OR which is to be avoided. @Neplota: please discuss here the changes you want to make before making them, and allow others to discuss whether they improve this article or not. Bazza (talk) 12:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Did you even see my edit? I didn't change any figures or merged any categories. I just changed the format and added links because the previous list didn't contain links to the relevant articles and it was different from the ethnic groups list, which shows percentage first and than the ethnic groups. I just made both list similar.Neplota (talk) 15:20, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Stop edit-warring & seek a consensus 'here'. Otherwise, you'll be heading for a block. GoodDay (talk) 17:09, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

@Neplota: I don't have any view on this but being "right" is never a justification for edit-warring. this edit summary is inappropriate. What are you going to report Bazza 7 for what exactly, and where are you going to make that report? You're on 3RR over 36 hours. Since 6 july you've barged into this article and been reverted 6 times by 4 different editors. One of your reverts restored Dickhead as the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Your user talk page has multiple complaints and warnings concerning your editing, posted in the last two weeks when most of your 571 edits were made. I've encountered your somewhat arrogant, uninformed, and uncollegial editing on another article where you displayed dishonest edit summaries and incomprehension of basic WP policy (again something others have complained about on your talk page). The Dunning–Kruger effect comes to mind. You need to bear in mind that per WP:ONUS there is no right to have any edit accepted and it's all about gaining the buy in of your fellow editors. The onus is on you to persuade others: when your credibility is low, which is undoubtedly the case for you for all the reasons I've earlier mentioned, you need to go the extra mile even if you are "right". And above all, you need to read and internalise WP:BRD. DeCausa (talk) 20:05, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Boris Johnson has resigned, please update.

At least remove him as the current PM since 2019. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slightspelling (talk • contribs) 14:06, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

But he is still the current PM. CMD (talk) 14:27, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Resigned as party leader, but still PM. [1] Bazza (talk) 16:29, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

He announced his resignation but remains Prime Minister and party leader until a successor is selected. Lavn2 (talk) 12:28, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Error in description of image

There is a caption under the map in History is: "A 16th cuntury map of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland prior to unification", it should be "century". I can't edit the page but wanted to flag it. Benwagner1988 (talk) 14:07, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

 Fixed, thanks — Czello 14:12, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

The map globe

Why aren't the other countries in Europe highlighted light green? Hellonature (talk) 22:51, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

There is no reason for them to be. The globe does have a slightly darker grey shading for a common definition of Europe. CMD (talk) 23:33, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

"U k" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect U k and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 28#U k until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Qwerfjkltalk 18:13, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

New PM Announced

Lis truss is now the pm of the uk 78.150.175.41 (talk) 11:42, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

No, she's the new leader of the conservative and unionist party. Be patient. Bazza (talk) 11:44, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Today she is only going to be PM. "Tomorrow [Tuesday] she will become prime minister when she visits the Queen in Balmoral for an invitation to form her UK government." (BBC News) -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 11:49, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

She's the prime minister-designate, until she's appointed prime minister by the monarch, tomorrow. GoodDay (talk) 12:55, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I see this has been reverted. While I'm not sure "Liz Truss incoming" is the right phrase (!) I think having some sort of note in the Infobox might help to stem the inevitable tide of edits until Balmoral happens. (I don't think she's even "designate". More like "apparent".) DeCausa (talk) 12:58, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Johnson hasn't resigned as prime minister 'yet' & so Truss, hasn't been appointed as his successor. GoodDay (talk) 13:11, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, not "designate". BBC headline currently has "to be " and pace WP:CRYSTAL, "Boris Johnson, to be Liz Truss" might be enough (as long as we have the comma). NebY (talk) 13:22, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

This really should not be difficult to write the factually correct detail and block the hoards of button pushing editors from jumping the gun. Whatever is done, please do not use "PM designate" Roger 8 Roger (talk) 13:25, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Truss can wait until tomorrow to go in the infobox, I think...  Tewdar  13:27, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

We wait until Johnson resigns & Truss is appointed, tomorrow. GoodDay (talk) 13:29, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

New PM

The politcs section needs changing as Boris is no longer PM as of this afternoon. His photo needs changing to Liz. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.114.104 (talk) 16:48, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Done, thanks.  Tewdar  16:53, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

PM Mention

In paragraph 2 of the introduction mentioning Elizabeth reigning since 1952, would mentioning Liz Truss as assuming office in September 2022 be elusive to add on for the reason that Elizabeth II is there because of the long reign itself? If not, would it be appropriate to add that in, thanks. :) Hi3d 2 (talk) 16:53, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD, the lead is a summary of the body of the article - not of its infobox and not of its pictures. If it's not in the body, it shouldn't be in the lead. Furthermore, the lead of this article concentrates on the main characteristics of the United Kingdom, which are broadly speaking, stable characteristics; its geography, its constitution, its place in the world. Its head of state for the last 70 years, the monarch, sits reasonably well within that; its prime minister of less than a day, the fourth in 7 years, would not even if WP:LEAD was otherwise satisfied. NebY (talk) 18:37, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Sovereign "Country"?!

The first sentence of this United Kingdom page falsely claims the UK is a "sovereign country". The UK is not a country, it is a political union, a Sovereign State of four constituent countries (or constituent nations). Could the first sentence please be corrected? Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23c5:db83:5b01:64e4:eea1:8881:48b9 (talk) 11:44, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

It is a country ruled by one sovereign. Sorry, who are you? Please sign your posts with four tildes (4x~). Britmax (talk) 13:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

"Sovereign country" is a compromise, reached after several discussions. Let's leave that compromise in place. GoodDay (talk) 14:41, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

The UK is a "soverign state" and is referred to as such in official documents. This is the most commonly used term when referring to the UK and the UK governemnt is based on "Parliamentary Sovereignty". Titus Gold (talk) 21:49, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I'd rather we use "country". But as already mentioned, the current wording is a compromise. GoodDay (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

"Sovereign country" is a term that was invented for use in this article. We should not leave that bizarre mashup in place and should instead use a term from our reliable sources, not a piece of original research. It's time to listen to all the editors who say so rather than dismissing their valid criticism with "it's a compromise". NebY (talk) 18:13, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Which word are you disagreeing with: “country” or “sovereign”. If you disagree with either…that’s just bizarre. DeCausa (talk) 19:22, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm disagreeing with the term "sovereign country". The normal term is "sovereign state". Just because "sovereign" and "country" are each normal English words, that doesn't mean we should create a novel term from them. It's contrary to Wikipedia policy and not at all helpful to readers. NebY (talk) 19:43, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

No idea why you think it’s novel. It’s a widely used pretty common standard phrase e.g. [2], [3]. DeCausa (talk) 20:14, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Those pages are only a strikingly limited set of returns from automatic searches; they're in no way endorsed by the editors of those dictionaries and they don't indicate that the phrase is widely used, common, standard or pretty, let alone that it's readily understandable or that our intention in using it rather than sovereign state is anything but perplexing to the general reader of Wikipedia. NebY (talk) 20:28, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

No one’s perplexed, it’s obvious what it means, it’s a very common phrase, not only in dictionaries and this is a non-issue: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16] etc etc There are 1.3m hits on google for the phrase. DeCausa (talk) 20:40, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Internet searches allow us to find mutiple instances even of typos and misspellings; that doesn't mean they're common or proper. Indeed, far from being common, "sovereign country" appears less than 1% as often as "sovereign state"[17] and your examples above are of it being used for rhetorical effect as having more emotive impact than "sovereign state". That's fine for politicians and tubthumping in the Sun as seen in your first example[18] but it raises a big WP:NPOV flag for us, even without considering the particular POV for Scottish independence and the future of the Union of the assertion that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Irelansd together constitute a single country.

I don't know why you would say that nobody's perplexed when so many editors query it on these talk pages, or say that it's a non-issue despite so much discussion. Are we to understand that you would be quite content to see "sovereign country" replaced with "sovereign state"? NebY (talk) 21:33, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

They’re not perplexed. They are denying the UK is a country. I’m responding to you saying that the term was invented for this article. If now you’re saying WP:IDONTLIKEIT that’s a whole different discussion. But it’s equally a pointless waste of time as these WP terminolgy disputes tend to be. DeCausa (talk) 22:22, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

One denies that the UK is a country, others don't. Yes, I started by saying that it was a term invented for the sake of compromise in this one article and it does indeed give the appearance of being so. You've demonstrated that it is used elsewhere; I and others have pointed out to you that it is far rarer than "sovereign state" and problematic in other ways, and now you're dismissing that as WP:IDONTLIKEIT and persisting in calling it a waste of time to discuss it. Please, if you find it a waste of time then don't waste any more time trying to defend the term. NebY (talk) 22:43, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

I’m not “defending” the term. I’m only saying that your claim that it’s made up by Wikipedia editors and no one understands it is nonsense. That’s it. Nothing more. It doesn’t bother me if the word “sovereign” is deleted. DeCausa (talk) 22:54, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Would it bother you if we used the term "sovereign state" rather than "sovereign country"? NebY (talk) 23:00, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Sovereign state is a compound noun with a definition that applies to the UK. "Sovereign country" is a neologism created by Wikipedia editors with no defined meaning and therefore should not be in this article. TFD (talk) 20:50, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Of coursde it wasn’t created by Wikipedia editors. Did you not see the above links I provided above to dictionaries, newspapers, academic books, EU press release, Hansard (UK parliamentary proceedings), Forbes etc. Nothing to do with Wikipedia. DeCausa (talk) 20:54, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

You found a few examples (half of which are from unreliable sources) that show an adjective and noun put together. If it were a defined concept, there would be a Wikipedia article. it seems that most of the articles use it as a synonym for sovereign state. Can you find a legal definition of sovereign country? TFD (talk) 21:39, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

There are 1.3m examples on google. It’s not a neologism it’s a very very common phrase with a very very obvious meaning. Of course it’s a synonym for sovereign state. So what? This is such a pointless non-issue waste of time. DeCausa (talk) 22:18, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Definitely not the norm wording for the UK [19] Moxy- 22:28, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. It is also the least applicable of the four options being discussed. (see my table way down below in this discussion for a summary of the pros and cons of each term). I think it should be "sovereign state". Angry Candy (talk) 16:36, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

We are using a qualifier word that implies the country was not sovereign at some point. Sounds like it just got its independence from some other country....makes it sound like a new country with very little history. At the help desk this has come up a few times for here and AustraliaMoxy- 22:05, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

In fact most of the references are to cases like this: Ukraine, Georgia, Ireland and Cyprus. TFD (talk) 22:15, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

There’s no need to state the word “sovereign” for the UK. As Moxy says it implies there’s a doubt.DeCausa (talk) 22:24, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Above you say it's a "common phrase" and now you say that there is no need to include the word "sovereign." But a phrase is not just an adjective and noun, but has a specific meaning. Siamese cats for example are not necessarily cats from Siam. TFD (talk) 22:33, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Look, I couldn’t give a flying f**k what the terminology used is. I responded to someone saying, effectively, the phrase “sovereign country” doesn’t exist and was made up by Wikipedia editors, which is abject nonsense. It’s a very very common phrase frequently used. Do I think it’s the bast phrase for this article? I couldn’t care less. “Country”, “sovereign country”, “sovereign state” is typical Wikpedia false pedantry nonsense and I just don’t care. However, if someone wants to take the word “country” out because they want to support a POV that the UK is not a country - then i do start to care a bit because that’s a breach of NPOV. But only “a bit”. It’s still tedious. DeCausa (talk) 22:43, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

• The UK is a 'sovereign state' (commonly called a 'country', on Wikipedia and everywhere else), which comprises 4 'constituent states' (usually referred to as 'constituent countries' in the UK). What's the hoo-ha here, exactly?  Tewdar  22:46, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

  A number of editors argue that we should use the same term you do, "sovereign state", rather than the term we currently use, "sovereign country". Would you agree? NebY (talk) 23:11, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

  I have no real objections to any of the options 'sovereign state', 'sovereign country', or 'country'. I would probably prefer to use simply 'country'.  Tewdar  06:54, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

• I don't believe "sovereign state" is an NPOV concern as DeCausa suggests, as it doesn't imply the UK isn't a country. The advantage of "sovereign state" is that it nicely distinguishes the UK from its constituent countries and it's the most common technical terminology for modern states; the advantage of just using "country" is simplicity (the UK is a country after all), but it would result in confusion for lay readers unfamiliar with the UK state's structure (a historical compromise, a country of countries). I agree with others that "sovereign" is factually unnecessary, but I can see why it was added to reduce reader confusion. I don't think "sovereign country" is wrong as such, but it's definitely less the common than the stock phrase "sovereign state", so I can also understand why it appears to some to be an artificial construct. My mild preference is for "sovereign state". Ultimately, they're all acceptable – including the status quo (or it wouldn't go unchallenged for months at a time). The issue seems to be more about what people think our wording could suggest, rather than its actual factual incorrectness. Jr8825 • Talk 00:47, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

There are also dependent (i.e., non-sovereign) states, such as Bermuda. TFD (talk) 03:09, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

The term country in the opening sentence is the norm all over.....with statehood normally mention in 3 paragraph Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries. We only have a few that differ....and those 3 have this problem all the time. It's clear what the stable wording is for every other country article.Moxy- 02:54, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

*One thing that puzzles me is that the sentence "The United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland" appears in the second paragraph, after the summary of the UK's political structure, the monarch, and the largest cities. Surely this is the most basic fact about the UK, and it would be much easier to explain the first sentence if it was followed directly by the introductory sentence to the constituent countries. Jr8825 • Talk 03:03, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

• Toying with ideas here, but what do editors find objectionable about the following options?

  • A The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a country in north-western Europe, off the north-­western coast of the European mainland. It consists of four constituent countries – England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland – and encompasses the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles.
  • B The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a country in north-western Europe, off the north-­western coast of the European mainland. It consists of four constituent countries, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; together, they encompasses the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles.
  • C The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is a country in north-western Europe, off the north-­western coast of the European mainland. It consists of four constituent countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom encompasses the island of Great Britain, the north-­eastern part of the island of Ireland, and many smaller islands within the British Isles. Jr8825 • Talk 03:18, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it is, since it only dates back to Tony Blair and none of the countries is sovereign as they would ber in a federation. If we are referreing to the countries of the UK before devolution, it becomes more complex. England and Wales for example is a country that consists of three countries, one of which (Cornwall) is not devolved. Northern Ireland is actually part of a country (Ireland) that was partitioned. And then there are the Orkney Islands and other anomalies. TFD (talk) 03:19, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi User:Jr8825. The problem is to describe the UK as a country. "Country" is not crazy but it is colloquial and I would say politically incorrect and maybe factually inaccurate. I would propose the compromise of "a sovereign state consisting of the constituent nations [or countries] of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales." (I motion also that the 4 nations [or countries] are presented alphabetically rather than by population numbers or perceived cultural significance (also for NPOV/political neutrality). I've expounded a little further at what is currently the bottom of this discussion. Thanks. :) Angry Candy (talk) 20:33, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

The sentence "it consists of" (which is in the current text) can easily be amended to "it includes". Jr8825 • Talk 03:22, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

That’s WP:OR. There’s no linkage between devolution and references to “country” in the UK context. It’s a cultural not a legal phenomenon. England and Wales is a legal jurisdiction and (since 1707) is/has not been referred to as a country. The word country has historically been referred to the trio of E, S and W. More recently, for the sake of symmetry as well as poltical reasons NI has had the same description. Cornwall, Orkney etc is in a different category. To describe those as countries is a particular political POV and is not generally accepted in the same way - and actually NI is in a somewhat similar position. There’s no hard and fast “rules” in this. It’s largely about cultural identity, politics, usage, tradition which is why it’s a minefield. There are endless debates in the archive over nearly 2 decades and whatever the outcome of this thread I have no doubt there will be endless future debates for as long as WP exists. DeCausa (talk) 06:59, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

References

To weigh my thoughts in, to refer to it as a sovereign country is probably as close to NPOV as the article can get. "Sovereign country", which is recognised in the article Sovereign state as another name for a sovereign state, does two things. First, it recognises the UK as a country in the common use of the term. Country/Nation is widely used as a synonym of sovereign states. As Wikipedia is supposed to inform people who don't know about a topic about a topic, particular regionalised uses of terms are less helpful. "Sovereign" country allows a distinction between the two terms as they are used - for sovereign states and constituent parts of sovereign states. If the use of country as a synonym for sovereign states as a general convention on Wikipedia changes, then it could be considered to change this lead sentence. However, until that time, not calling the UK a country in line with convention is not in line with NPOV. Jèrriais janne (talk) 20:09, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

I basically agree with Jèrriais janne, country is the standard term to refer to pretty much every modern sovereign state in the world regardless of its structure or political situation. In that context using any term other than country could easily be interpreted as expressing a clear view that the UK is fundamentally different to every other sovereign state and ultimately about its legitimacy as a political entity which whatever you think about the Union doesn't belong being inserted in the first sentence of the UK's Wikipedia page. I was involved in an argument on this talk page a couple of years ago where I objected to the use of the phrase "Sovereign Country" for similar reasons but I'm now of the view that its a reasonable way of distinguishing between the different ways the term is used in relation to the UK particularly as it is also used elsewhere. Llewee (talk) 21:23, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Giving away my age here...James, Alan (1984). "Sovereignty: Ground Rule or Gibberish?". Review of International Studies. 10 (1). Cambridge University Press: 1–18. ISSN 0260-2105. JSTOR 20096996. Retrieved 2022-05-23. Moxy- 21:37, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

I can only see the superfluous inclusion of the word "sovereign" as verging on the jingoistic, in the wake of leaving the European Union. All countries are "sovereign". Does the article on the United States of America begin by stating that it's a sovereign country? I doubt it. Is there a belief that the United Kingdom of Great Britain didn't used to be sovereign, but was a vassal of some great empire? I doubt it. Are the countries of the EU each sovereign? Of course they are. Do they have it stated in their Wiki articles? Of course not; it's not necessary. Francis Hannaway (talk) 08:52, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@Francish7: Not all countries are equally sovereign: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland covers two, three or four which are not. I think the mess here precedes leaving the EU and is mostly due to the make-up of the UK as a country of four countries (with one of those "countries" having some other problems, and another seemingly non-existent), rather than any attempt at jingoism. Replacing "country" with "state" to give "a state of four countries" gives rise to further confusion if compared with confederations of states, so it's been expanded to a "sovereign state of four countries" which is where we're at now. I apologise for none of this and agree with you that simply stating that it's a "country" in the lead would suffice, leaving the torture for the main article. Bazza (talk) 09:22, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

The UK is one of the few countries in the world made up of entities that are also described to varying degrees as countries. As the articles for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland describe each as countries, a vital a distinction is made on this article by stating sovereign country rather than just country. This issue was debated extensively for many years and that is the compromise that was reached, as it covers the fact the UK is both a sovereign state (unlike England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland), and a country. Despite a few discussions over recent years, this has been very stable for many years, and i strongly oppose any alteration to this wording. It has nothing to do with the EU, and there are different formats followed for different countries. The sovereign bit relates to the fact the UK is a sovereign state and yes each member of the EU is a sovereign state to. This is nothing to do with Brexit and was agreed before that happened. There is no need for any change. RWB2020 (talk) 22:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

This discusdion isn't discussing whether or not the parts of the UK are countries, but whether it's necessary to use a word like 'sovereign'. As far as makes sense to me, one head of state, one government (devolved governments are a second tier of government - like Boroughs in County Councils),one army, one currency. To me it looks like one country. Take the example of the US. 50 States, each with a governor. The government of each state in the US has more power and independence than each of the devolved government of Scotland, the principality of Wales (never a country), and the province of Northern Ireland (an annexed part of another country). Yet they are known as states. In other countries they'd be known as semi- autonomous provinces/states, as exist in several European countries. But this is all another issue. The country is the sum of all of these. It's called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. All citizens are equal, and have freedom of movement, with one passport. Francis Hannaway (talk) 17:35, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Surely no one is arguing that it's not a country. I think the point being raised is that it's a country of countries, or a country with countries, or a state of countries, or any number of other confusing descriptions. Perhaps a similar article would be Kingdom of the Netherlands, which is described as a sovereign state. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 18:06, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi User:zzuuzz. Actually, this discussion is precisely based on the motion that the UK is not strictly a country. Please see the first post. England is a country, as are Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The UK is a union of four countries and we're looking for the best way to describe that relationship factually and apolitically. "Sovereign state" and "sovereign country" are proposed as compromises. I personally favour "sovereign state." I do not see "sovereign country" as a compromise but potentially a Unionist POV and as such politically (and maybe factually) incorrect. Angry Candy (talk) 20:48, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

The trouble is, the terms 'country', 'sovereign country', and 'sovereign state' are often used with identical meaning. In this sense, the UK is a country, but its four so-called 'constituent countries' are not countries. 'Country' is very commonly used to mean 'sovereign state', which is why I'd prefer to use this term.  Tewdar  20:59, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, it wouldn't be crazy to say it's a country in an everyday sort of way. To avoid saying "it's a country of 4 countries" (which I agree is ungainly and confusing), we should use "sovereign state." That is still factually accurate and politically correct. I realise now that's what you're saying. I agree with you. Angry Candy (talk) 22:20, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

• I would like to concur with the original poster (User:NebY) that "sovereign country" is not correct, nor is it a compromise as per User:Britmax. It strikes me as politically incorrect as well as factually inaccurate. I would accept "sovereign state (which is a real thing) comprising of the four constituent countries of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland." The issue is that "country" is colloquial, "sovereign country" is very strange and could be misconstrued as an overly Unionist POV (the equally unacceptable and politically incorrect anti-Unionist counterpart to this POV would be something like "a political union between the four constituent counties of..."), while "sovereign state" makes sense across the colloquial, factual, official, and as an apolitical compromise. It is very strange to me that "sovereign country" is being described as a compromise when "sovereign state" would be the compromise for the reasons I state here. How do we move towards a consensus? Angry Candy (talk) 20:24, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

  Some editors are saying that "sovereign country" (for the UK) is a way to distinguish against "constituent country" (used for England, NI, Scotland, and Wales). But this is back to front in addition to encountering the problems I outline above. In defining what the UK is in this opening paragraph, we should not be defining it against the smaller units of those constituent countries but the larger units of, well, everything else on Wikipedia. We should be briefly answering the question "What is the UK?" with reference to everything else, not with reference to things within the UK. Angry Candy (talk) 20:41, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Just 'country' would be fine. 'State' would also be fine, and would mean the same thing in this context. 'Sovereign state' and 'sovereign country' are both also fine. Personally I'd prefer just 'country', but I'm not that bothered really.  Tewdar  20:48, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

The standard opening for almost every country article on wp is "X is a country in...", some have a qualifier like "transcontinental country" or "island country". I think Monaco and the Vatican are pretty much the only ones with something different: "...is a city state". Australia has "is a sovereign country" too. It's just fine as it is. Threads like this are a colossal waste of time. DeCausa (talk) 22:04, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

It's only a waste of time if you're happy with the status quo. Angry Candy (talk) 21:13, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, "country" would be fine, or "sovereign state". They're familiar terms, especially "country", whereas with "sovereign country" we risk pulling our readers up short while they try to figure out why we haven't simply said "country" or "sovereign state". What point are we making? NebY (talk) 22:08, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Much of the discussion above was before the May 2022 discussion now in the archives, Talk:United Kingdom/Archive 36#Intro minor change proposal: moving one sentence on "four countries" to initial UK summary, where a lot of workshopping resulted in this change Among other things, we discovered we could simply say "It comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland," so we no longer use "constituent countries" in the first paragraph. NebY (talk) 22:06, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

• A simplified argument in favour of changing the current wording to "sovereign state" by Angry Candy (talk) 21:13, 28 August 2022 (UTC). (I invite you all to discuss this tabular argument using indents beneath the table with reference to the table and without restating above positions):

	Factually accurate	NPOV	Colloquial	Commonly used in Wikipedia
Country	Maybe	Maybe	Yes	Yes
Sovereign country	Maybe	No	No	No
Sovereign state	Yes	Yes	No	Yes
Political union	Yes	No	Maybe	Yes

Depends what you mean by "politically correct". For some who are pro-union and pro-sovereignty, anything but "Sovereign country" is an WP:NPOV-breaching dilution. The idea that English has only one "natural language" is ... novel. There are many registers, far more than "colloquial" and "Wikipedia". "Sovereign state" is normal within plenty of them and more common in them than "sovereign country". (Also, re "without restating above positions", telling people you're arguing with or trying to persuade that from now on they've got to discuss it your way didn't do Socrates a lot of good.) NebY (talk) 21:47, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh come now! He was seventy, a ripe old age for a Greek of that time. The only way we know much about him is through Plato, who was so wrought by the injustice that he spent the rest of his life writing dialogues with Socrates as a key character. The execution ofd Socrates was the making of the man, not his downfall. --Pete (talk) 21:54, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Based on your comments I've changed "politically correct" to NPOV (which is the real issue there) and "natural language" to something more, well, natural. I also upgraded "political union" to a maybe in that category. For what it's worth, I think we would both prefer "political union" from a purely factual basis but there are other issues to consider that will likely to lead us to a compromise instead. The current compromise is apparently "sovereign country" but as you can see from my table argument I do not see it as an adequate one. Angry Candy (talk) 10:15, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

I would not prefer "political union". Wikipedia's target audience varies - look at some of our maths articles - but imagine a 14-year-old in the US reading this to learn about the difference between England, Britain and the United Kingdom, finding "political union" in the first sentence and wondering just how limited a merely political union is. NebY (talk) 19:22, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Hmm, there is actually a good page for political union and the UK is included on it as an example of "incorporating union." So the term is used on Wikipedia and we can link to it without changing the terminology. I've updated the political union row of my table to reflect this.

Just describe the UK as a "country". England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland as "constituent countries". GoodDay (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good to me! 😁 We don't even need to describe the components as 'constituent countries' if we keep the current structure...  Tewdar  23:08, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

True. GoodDay (talk) 23:12, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

That's certainly an elegant solution and I for one don't hate it. The thing is though, "country" might be debatable while "sovereign state" is inarguable plus it eliminates the "country containing countries" confusion/inelegance. As you can see, I count 3 reasons to use "sovereign state" and 2 for "country" based on everything above. (Moreover and with respect, we are, here to debate the use of "country" and re-stating the status-quo isn't doing that.) Angry Candy (talk) 10:08, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

The thing is, 'country' is used by everybody, from ordinary hewers of wood and drawers of water to the most erudite of political philosophers in multi-volume scholarly handbooks to mean 'sovereign nation state'. It is perfectly 'correct' to use 'country' in this manner, and avoids technical jargon and the (quite unnecessary, in my view, since this is the default) use of 'sovereign'.  Tewdar  10:29, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely, that's why it has a yes in my "colloquial" column. It's certainly no-nonsense. But there are other issues at stake: factual accuracy, political correctness (NPOV), and something we can link to on Wikipedia without changing the term just for this page. Angry Candy (talk) 11:16, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Personally I think 'country' is factually accurate and neutral. No need to link to country, sovereign state or any other term - we can explain all the complexities later, like we do in the vast majority of our articles about other countries.  Tewdar  12:57, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Of course it's a country. Almost every "country article" in Wikipedia begins "X is a country". I don't think any (or at least hardly any) begin "X is a sovereign state". DeCausa (talk) 13:04, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree that "sovereign state" is a bit weird and unnatural as a phrase but it might be the best compromise. "Of course it's a country" doesn't really pass muster. Because is it? It might be. But it might actually be a political union of four countries. I think a lot of people will come to this page with the question "is the UK a country?" in their mind. We need to be sure that the page is correct or at least not misleading. Angry Candy (talk) 14:02, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Do you never give up - you were part of the long resolution of this issue and know perfectly well what the agreement was. To raise it yet again without making new editors aware of the agreement is questionable behaviour ---Snowded ^TALK 11:19, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

I've no objections to using "country" here, since we no longer use any description for England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland in the body. As for what to call E/W/S/NI? That's for their own separate pages :) GoodDay (talk) 14:01, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Heh. Well, they all use "[X] is a country that is part of the United Kingdom", which is perfect and not really debatable. There's a case for the UK being not one country but four. Angry Candy (talk) 14:05, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

For two decades these arguments have gone round and round in circles with the same things said over and over again on this Talk page. There are multiple RS cites for the UK being described as a country. It's not in doubt. Where we are now is a compromise. Rehashing this yet again with exactly the same arguments is not productive. DeCausa (talk) 14:12, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

The fact that the debate comes up so often suggests that the compromise is not a good one. That the claim to consensus is faulty. Angry Candy (talk) 14:34, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

There have been multiple other "compromises". This is just the latest - I think about 3 or 4 years old from memory, which is relatively quite long. If it gets changed this time (which doesn't seem likely at this point) it won't matter. Someone will pop up again at some point in the future and the whole thing will get rehashed again...same arguments and probably be changed again. Meanwhile none of the 30,000 odd daily viewers of the article notice or care...or at least not as much as the half dozen revolving WP editors that like to get stuck into this. DeCausa (talk) 14:46, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Blimey, that's so interesting. It certainly parallels discussion in the real world! My take though, is that "sovereign country" is the worst of the four options being discussed here. I'd like to see "political union" in place personally but I absolutely accept "sovereign state" is a decent compromise for the reasons outlined in the table above. Not "sovereign country", which is just terrible. Angry Candy (talk) 15:04, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Everyone who engages in a thread on this topic has their personal preference; that's why it keeps getting raised/chnaged. DeCausa (talk) 16:42, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

the compromise is not a good one[...]the claim to consensus is faulty - Pretty much sums up the United Kingdom itself...😂  Tewdar  14:48, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Sovereign country is not a defined term, unlike sovereign state. I would therefore omit sovereign and therefore the wording would be the same as similar articles.

There is no problem with the UK and its subnational units both being countries. For one thing, we should use the legal description of the latter, which is "constitutent countries." It doesn't bother us that the U.S. has "states," when the U.S. itself is a state, or that Canada still calls its subnational units "provinces," which is a synonym for colony. Or that Northern Ireland is referred to as a province of the UK, when in fact it is a cúige, meaning "fifth part", of Ireland (although there were only four cúiges) and province is a mistranslation. And why is Chechnya a republic of Russia, which itself is a republic?

The terminology of states and subnational units is confusing.

TFD (talk) 15:05, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Just to correct you there, NI has never been a "province of the UK". "Province" originates from being one of the 4 provinces of Ireland: Munster, Connacht, Leinster and Ulster with NI equalling Ulster in certain eyes. After partition the habitual reference to Ulster as a province was applied to NI. The fifth cúige was the Kingdom of Meath, later subsumed into Leinster. DeCausa (talk) 15:15, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

That's what I said. NI is not a province of the UK, was never a province of Ireland and in fact Ireland did not have provinces, if we use the original meaning of the term. Yet some people still call it a province of the UK. Nova Scotia OTOH was a province of the UK but is referred to as a province of Canada because Canada retained the description. The U.S. OTOH abandoned the term province upon independence of each province, which then called themselves states. But they continued to call themselves states even after they united into a single state. TFD (talk) 15:50, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

I guess my point is that there are few if any unambiguous terms for sub-national units. TFD (talk) 15:52, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

I didn't know "constituent country" was a legal description. Is that in UK law? It might be useful for us to know that! NebY (talk) 19:15, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

If a law, order or contract uses the term "constituent country," we know exactly what it means.

AFAIK, the UK has never legislated terms for its constituent parts but legislation and government orders frequently refer to them as "constituent countries," as for example in "The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) (Amendment) Regulations 2009": "its registered keeper may display letters denoting one of the constituent countries." The term has precision, i.e., you know that they are referring to England, NI, Scotland and Wales. You know for example, that it includes NI (which is arguably not a country) and excludes the UK, England and Wales, Cornwall and Shetland, which can also referred to as countries.

TFD (talk) 17:53, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Aha! Thanks. Interesting that even there it's in the expanatory notes and not the regulation itself, and that's the only instance in that database of statutory instruments[20] – the other one seems to be a false positive, which uses "each of the countries of the United Kingdom" instead. NebY (talk) 11:36, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Strongly oppose any change to the opening sentence which has been stable for years. This article and the England, Wales, Scotland and to a lesser extent the Northern Ireland articles call them countries, it is therefore vital that there is a clear distinction made with the introduction of this article. The UK is both a country and a sovereign state, some prefer using either of the two, the compromise has been to use the term sovereign country which covers both. That is stable and accurate, and helps address confusion caused by the fact we call England/Wales/Scotland countries. This has been the method used for many years, there is no need to change it now when nothing new has changed the situation. If this opening sentence is changed, it is going to lead to instability on other parts of the article and other articles too. RWB2020 (talk) 15:26, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

To suggest the current wording of "sovereign country" is inaccurate is frankly nonsense. it implies that every editor of this page for many years has been satisfied with the very first sentence of the article being factually inaccurate. Which is clearly nonsense. Its also not just something that applies to the UK article seen the Australian article uses the term too. And there is no single format for every country on wikipedia, there are often descriptive words attached to it like transcontinental or island. The fact the UK is made up of four countries is a very unique situation not replicated in many countries, so this merits clarification.

Also want to just point out its not that long ago another change was made to the introduction, at the time as usual there was reassurance that it wouldn't lead to changes to the opening sentence. But as always this is a slippery slope, and now one of the changes made then is being used to justify changing this opening sentence now. This is exactly why the stable wording should remain. if we mess about with that opening sentence, it wont be long before a further change is requested or demanded. If we pick one of the two (sovereign state vs country) it immediately is going to dissatisfy one side and it provides less information to the reader. Sovereign country is a good compromise that clearly covers both. RWB2020 (talk) 15:37, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Best solution - Use "country" in the intro of 'this' page & use "...is a constituent country of the United Kingdom" for the intros of England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland pages. As long as there's refusal to use the prefix "constituent" in the intros of the four other pages? The topic of how to describe the UK, will keep coming up. GoodDay (talk) 16:02, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

it implies that every editor of this page for many years has been satisfied with the very first sentence of the article being factually inaccurate. Not so. Many editors have only worked on particular parts of the article rather than the lead and that does not imply satisfaction with any other parts of the article, including the lead; many have challenged the wording; some may have been put off by DeCausa's argument of futility or even your argument of jeopardy. Meanwhile, the passion with which you argue that if we change one bit we destabilise the whole would be understandable if you were a patriotic unionist talking about changing the poiltical union itself, but this is only a Wikipedia article. NebY (talk) 11:49, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

"DeCausa's argument of futility." Sounds like I should create a user subpage thus titled. DeCausa (talk)

It has a ring to it! NebY (talk) 17:50, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

The introduction and especially the very first sentence is a rather important part of the article which many may notice. If it was factually inaccurate you would expect a page with 10,000s of views every day and many editors to have a lot more conversations about this issue over the years than there has been since the compromise was agreed. It comes up from time to time by a very small number of editors. The problem of destabilising is a real issue of concern. The compromise has had relative stability for years without the need for it to be escalated in a way other conflicts and edit wars on wikipedia have. The UK is a country and it is a sovereign state. Just saying one of these two things is problematic, because of the England/Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland issue and the reasonable and stable compromise is to say sovereign country which covers both terms. There is a very clear need to explicitly state the Uk is a sovereign country to distinguish it from the non sovereign countries that make up the UK. The table above suggesting its only "maybe" factually accurate to even call the UK a country demonstrates exactly where this slippery slope leads. RWB2020 (talk) 13:33, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not have a principle that the more editors or readers an article has, the better it obviously is, or any guidelines for what numbers of readers excuse which types of problems. Stability for its own sake is not how we resolve problems on Wikipedia. In English, when we want to say to communicate two ideas, it's poor communication to smoosh together an unfamiliar portmanteau phrase and hope everyone will make both senses of it. The table above is one editor's opinion; it is highly regrettable that you have so little faith in your fellow editors that you think it "demonstrates exactly where this slippery slope leads", once again using passionate language more appropriate to defending the Union rather than the phrasing of an article. NebY (talk) 18:09, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

The point was clearly the term does not confuse people, its been in the first sentence of an introduction for many years, on an article with 10,000s of views every single day, and a large number of editors. Only a handful of people have taken issue with the term over the years. Im defending a compromise that has lasted for many years which has provided stability and accurately reflects the fact the UK is both a country and a sovereign state. Ive explained the reason this is important, because of how England/Wales/Scotland and Northern Ireland are described as countries on wikipedia so a distinction is needed. A lack of clear distinction is clearly more likely to confuse readers due to the unique circumstances of the UK being one of the few countries made up of entitles that are also called countries. Some of the attempts by some people in the past to suggest the UK isnt sovereign or the UK isnt a country may have been politically motivated because it certainly has nothing to do with NPOV or accuracy issues as the UK most certainly is a sovereign country. That is factually accurate because it is a sovereign state and a country. There is no justification for changing something that has been stable for so many years when the situation has not changed. RWB2020 (talk) 10:57, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

If we refer to the UK as a country, and England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as constituent countries, that avoids confusion. In other articles, we use the terms states, provinces and republics to refer to subnational units, because that is what they are called, not because that is what they actually are. Those terms came into use because that is what they had been historically, just as England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales were each countries in the complete sense. TFD (talk) 03:02, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

They are still referred to just as countries on those other articles. The current wording of the opening sentence on this article has helped bring about stability not just on this article but on the 4 parts of the UK articles too. Many have in the past had a problem with saying "constituent country", and ensuring this article refers to the UK as a sovereign country was a suitable compromise to avoid the need to use the qualifying term for England/Wales/Scotland and Northern Ireland. We should just keep the status quo otherwise it unpicks issues that have been stable across several articles for years. RWB2020 (talk) 10:17, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

TFD - The use of 'constituent' was a hugely contentious issue - occupied far too much energy and was eventually resolved by Admin mediation collating all the sources. GoodDay is being irresponsible in not making people aware of that prior process and its been an obsession for him for years to the point where he had to stay off British Isles articles for some time. I've got no objections to adding Sovereign Country, although failing nation state might be more appropriate at the moment :-) ---Snowded ^TALK 11:27, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Support using the description failing nation state Cambial — foliar❧ 11:34, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't think "failing nation state" has a chance of being adopted. GoodDay (talk) 15:13, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Heh. But re "I've got no objections to adding Sovereign Country" - that is what we've got now. Re "resolved by Admin mediation", it might be rather useful if you could point to that. I'm not sure where to look, because "admin mediation" isn't really a thing these days. WP:DRN's not admin-run, ditto the old WP:MEDCOM, WP:ANI and WP:ARBCOM aren't for content issues, RFCs aren't really mediation – so many places! NebY (talk) 12:27, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

We avoided Arbcom (just) with all active editors involved and there were a lot. It was resolved in the basis of weight of citations and its been stable for a decade or more. Like Derry for the town, Londonderry for the county its removed a lot of heat ---Snowded ^TALK 12:57, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, and glad it stayed out of Arbcom, but that table's only about what to call the parts of the United Kingdom (i.e. Countries of the United Kingdom) and not what to call the United Kingdom itself. Was there another mediation, do you remember?NebY (talk) 13:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC) Sorry, I've now re-read what you said and what you were responding to. Striking. NebY (talk) 16:49, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps an RFC should be opened on this, with 'two' options. Use "sovereign country" or use "country". Now that we no longer use descriptions for England, Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland, in this page. GoodDay (talk) 01:51, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

The introduction may no longer say that England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are countries, but the article still does. Also those other articles do in their opening sentence so the problem remains. We have recently given England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland more prominence on this article by mentioning it in the second sentence. There is still the need to provide the distinction. RWB2020 (talk) 10:17, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

If another editor or IP, brings up objections to the usage of "sovereign country", again? I'll be opening an RFC on the matter. GoodDay (talk) 21:20, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind an RfC on this. Should be fairly straightforward, no? 😁👍  Tewdar  22:37, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

RfCs usually work best when there's a starightforward yes/no answer. There's at least 4 different options mentioned in this thread which would have to be posed in the RfC plus, no doubt, creative WP editors will, during the course of the RfC, come up with more (..."Union State" has some academic backing...). But I'm sure an RfC on this would go very......smoothly. DeCausa (talk) 11:06, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

I can think of atleast half a dozen formulations that would need to be considered and not only are there many different options for what to say in this opening sentence, it has far wider implications if a change is made for other articles too which adds many more options that need to be considered. if this article starts by just saying the UK is a country or that its just a sovereign state instead of country, it will immediately lead to arguments over on the England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland articles about use of country in the opening sentences there too. This is bigger than just this one article and introduction. Those articles have had stability saying country in part because this article has used the term sovereign country as a clear distinction. And there are many that do not want to go back to use of the term "constituent country" which caused even more instability than the current status quo compromise everywhere, but use of "constituent country" would certainly become more necessary if "sovereign country" isnt used here.

I do not believe a RFC is needed on this nor would it solve the issue, it would very likely risk opening up an even bigger unnecessary dispute on multiple articles. We should just stick with the status quo which has had stability for years. Especially when one of the editors pushing for a change right now in their misleading table above suggests it may not be factually accurate to refer to the UK even as a country. That is a blatant fringe view and it should not be rewarded. And yet removing country from this opening sentence and putting just sovereign state is aimed at boosting such fringe views. RWB2020 (talk) 12:04, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, at the very least, "sovereign state" is often raised and it would be prejudicial to leave it out. Is "political union"' your fourth? In this on-again, off-again discussion, I only see Angry Candy picking that up. Looking back, I also see a long discussion about "union state" but I don't think that was proposed for the lead. RFCs with three options A, B and C seem common enough and pretty workable but yes, my impression is that four-option ones get a bit more diffuse - something about there being more pairs to compare and discuss, maybe. NebY (talk) 12:49, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, "political union" would definitely be an outsider. I was looking for the answer to the question you posed to Snowded about the admin-mediated mediation (which I don't remember and i've been "involved" on and off since 2011) and considered (but only briefly) constructing a history of the opening sentence and the Talk page consensuses. It didn't take much to induce me to give up in that. However, I did notice 2 things: This, I think, is the source of the current formulation (2016). About 10 years ago there was a formulation that was based on the opening sentence being the UK "..is a sovereign state..." with the second sentence then beginning "The country is...", clearly a compromise between sovereign state-ists and country-ists. DeCausa (talk) 13:19, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Aha, thanks. Total sympathy with giving up on constructing a history, but that's a clear and useful look anyway. I thought there'd been a "sovereign state ... country" formulation once, but I'd taken a wikibreak when that 2016 discussion happened. I'll take a look. NebY (talk) 13:31, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

What would the four options be, in an RFC? GoodDay (talk) 14:51, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

You're asking me? "Four" was DeCausa's, and I don't know how firm that was, but I can count first the main three, country, sovereign state, and sovereign country, and then the "sovereign state ... country" approach as seen at the end of September 2013 That approach, hastily patched into our current wording, might be a shift from

is a sovereign country in Europe, off the north-western coast of the continental mainland. It comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.

to something like

is a sovereign state in Europe, off the north-western coast of the continental mainland. The country comprises England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.

It's an interesting approach, but we'd want to do some collaborative wordsmithing on it and that doesn't work within an RFC. Indeed, we might end up agreeing that no version of that approach works, allowing a simpler RFC - if an RFC is the way to go. NebY (talk) 15:41, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. Also, I think if an RFC on this topic were to be opened? It would be best that it were arranged & opened by someone other then me. Forgive me, but I can't explain further on the latter part. GoodDay (talk) 15:49, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Why not just "state or country?", and "do we put the word 'sovereign' in front of it?" 🤔 Also, you're the perfect man for the job, GoodDay!😁👍  Tewdar  17:12, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

If an RFC was to be considered there should first be agreement on what to include in that and what wording should be used along with what options would be mentioned. This cannot just be restricted to two or 3 options, which would limit peoples responses and choice. And this doesnt just limit itself to the first sentence, if people are going to try to justify a wording based on what gets mentioned in the second sentence too. The fact the UK is a country is paramount and should clearly be mentioned in the first sentence, fobbing it off to the second sentence and just saying "The country..." rahter than explicitly stating the UK is a country, is problematic and enabled some to overlook it in the past. There is also the option of saying both country and sovereign state in that first sentence rather than just one or the other. But i strongly oppose any change to this introduction that does not make clear the UK is both a country and indeed that its sovereign (to distinguish it from England/Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland). And any rfc would have to clearly set out the cross article implications of any change and the fact this relates to the opening sentences of the other articles which simply say country. It is totally unacceptable if wikpedia has articles with opening sentences for England, Wales and Scotland saying they are countries, but the opening sentence of the UK doesnt say it. Such a change would require changes to be made to the other articles, such as by saying constituent countries instead as a compromise. I dont think a RFC is a good idea, i think it could end up creating even more problems, but if there was one it would have to be fairly worded and command confidence and be able to build a consensus that remains stable. A rigged RFC with a misleading or intentionally limited selection of options would be totally unacceptable and problematic. RWB2020 (talk) 12:34, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

In my view, the lede sentence should clarify for readers what the article is basically about. Now, in ascending levels of accuracy, we could describe the UK as a "polity", a "country", a "state", a "sovereign state" (or "sovereign country")...etc. We just have to decide the appropriate level of detail in the introduction. As far as I can tell, options outside of (sovereign) country or (sovereign) state have very little support, and we wouldn't need to include other options in any RfC. I'm open to other suggestions though, such as "political union" or whatever. Also I'm not really interested in what other articles do. Describing both the UK and England, for example, as a country is perfectly correct as "country" is a very fuzzy term.  Tewdar  12:54, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

"Describing both the UK and England, for example, as a country is perfectly correct as "country" is a very fuzzy term." But this is exactly the issue. The term is correct for both, but the term has a very loose definition. Which is exactly why the introduction needs to use the term sovereign country, to be more explicit about the type of country it is, to draw a clear distinction from England/Wales/Scotland and Northern Ireland. And that has been the compromise, seen as we no longer call those countries "constituent countries" as a way of distinguishing them. And it would be hugely problematic if we call those countries in their article first sentence, but we dont call the UK a country in the first sentence too, which is why just putting "sovereign state" would not work. RWB2020 (talk) 17:16, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

We've got "...of the United Kingdom", in the other articles. So, there's no risk of confusion. GoodDay (talk) 17:25, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Elizabeth or Liz? (for the PM, not HM the Queen)

The list of Cabinet Ministers on the Gov.uk website (i.e. the authoritative Government list of Ministers), says "Elizabeth Truss", not "Liz Truss Fabius Planciades Fulgentius (talk) 16:19, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

We should go by the article title, because the same factors that go into article title selection (common use, naturalness, recognisability) will make it the most useful name for readers here. CMD (talk) 16:23, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Her article here is in the name Liz Truss per WP:COMMONNAME and Talk:Liz Truss/Archive 1#Requested move 24 May 2019. The UK Government doesn't dictate our usage, nor even that of the UK's broadcasters, newspapers, magazines, etc. NebY (talk) 16:29, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Definitely 'Liz'.  Tewdar  16:46, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

FWIW, the prime minister's first name is Mary. GoodDay (talk) 00:32, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Preceded by

There is a preceded by section of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Should it really be there, considering that it isn't on any of the other pages? It's usually on historical countries and it doesn't seem to be consistent with the other Wikipedia pages unless it was on all the country pages. Rozzli (talk) 03:23, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

New monarch

Twice in one week! Aargh!  Tewdar  17:40, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2022

update the anthem , i have a file in which there are lyrics being sung instead of the instrumental, which is the current published audio. Dieplsdieplsdie (talk) 00:00, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. You'll need to provide the audio file, and the license just be compatible with Wikipedia. Additionally, changing the anthem will require discussion and agreement with other editors. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:09, 10 September 2022 (UTC)