Talk:Udayar (caste)

Udayar

New editor User:Archescientist posted this at my user talk page, and at the user talk page of User:Sitush. I'm copying the discussion here where it belongs. The Mighty Glen (talk) 12:49, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

1) I accept that some people of udayar caste are following Christianity. But when compare to Hindus udayar not even comes to 1%. The reference what you have given is not worked based on caste or orgin. It deals with only south Indian Christianity people.

2) Socially Humbler than Vellar - Vellar is the group of people how doing agriculture. But udayar caste are belongs to Velir group. For reference please read Dennis B. McGilvray work on caste system in south India. One more all udayars are under obc category. Earlier it was in General category later changed to obc category after Dravidian movement has became ruling party in Tamil Nadu. But most of the vellar cast are in mbc category earlier they where in BC later moved to MBC. If the caste is humbler than vellar then how this this is possible.

3) Malayaman Udayar are belongs to Malayaman Dynasty. There are lot of inscription which has return on sangam period found in Tamil Nadu and also found in Literature. Please refer the following artical - http://www.whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_26/introduction_1.html

We request you to don't revert the page. If you have any concern replay to this mail. Will make it clear. -> Archescientist — Preceding unsigned comment added by Archescientist (talk • contribs) 12:14, 23 December 2017

Replying to each question:

Question 1: you'll need a WP:Reliable source to WP:Verify that claim of not even 1%.

Question 2: same again for all of these claims.

Question 3: Who is "we"?

The Mighty Glen (talk) 13:41, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Below are the reference: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=5YksAAAAMAAJ&dq=udayar+caste&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=udayar Title Indian Anthropology Author Nadeem Hasnain Publisher New Royal Book Company, 2010 ISBN 818926799X, 9788189267995 Length 292 pages Reference Page : 1 to 7

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=jAMdAQAAMAAJ&dq=udayar+caste&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=udayar Title Contributions to Indian Sociology Volumes 9-10 of Contributions to Indian Sociology: Occasional Studies Contributors Ecole pratique des hautes études (France). Section des sciences économiques et sociales, University of Oxford. Institute of Social Anthropology, Research Centre on Social and Economic Development in Asia Publisher Mouton, 1975 Reference Page : 35 - 36

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=W2pYAAAAMAAJ&q=udayar+caste&dq=udayar+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidxYCTyKDYAhXKPo8KHSK_Blw4FBDoAQhTMAk Title Temples of Madras State, Volume 9, Issue 1 Volume 9, Part 11 of Census of India 1961 Temples of Madras State, India. Census Commissioner Author India. Census Commissioner Published 1965 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized 14 Feb 2008 Referrence Page : 186

Think this reference is enough.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Archescientist (talk • contribs)

For what point(s) are these intended to be references? I cannot actually read more than a few sentences of any of them and what I can see doesn't appear to be relevant to anything in particular.

With regard specifically to the Christianity thing, please note that the article makes no comment about how many Udayar are Christian. It is left deliberately vague - at least some - because that reflects the cited source. I doubt very much we will find a source that puts a number on it. - Sitush (talk) 19:16, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

See The below phrase

Indian Anthropologist, Volume 2, Issue 1

Page 1

Udayar (UDaiyaar) caste, which is found primarily in the salem, North Arcot, South Arcot and Trichy Districts of Tamil Nadu. Udayars are backward or low caste, typically former or slavery worker.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=0pTXAAAAMAAJ&q=udayar+sub+caste&dq=udayar+sub+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwignYT__6HYAhVMso8KHWr1BggQ6AEIPTAE

They played an important role in village political affairs. All of them belonged to the Nattamar subcaste, as did all persons calling themselves Udayar in the villages of Kadayampatti and Nachanampatti, each at a distance of less than one mile from Nadupatti.*14 These Udayars claimed that there were three divisions: Nattamar (Nattamaar), Maiai- mar (Malaimaar, or sometimes Malaiyamaar), and Sudarmar (Sudarmaar, or sometimes Surudiyamaar)

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=gsMhKQEACAAJ&dq=udayar+sub+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqwaWT_6HYAhXCO48KHRz_AA44FBDoAQhZMAk

Nathamar is one sub caste of Parkavakulam community of Tamil Nadu, India. The others are Moopanar, Nainar, Malayamar and Shruthimar. Nathamars traditionally engaged in Agriculture. Most of the Nathamars followed Shaivism and the reminder followed Vaishnavism. Christians can be also found. They are the people of the chola dynasty and cholas were now called as udayars mentioning the whole as parkavakulam community. King Rajaraja Cholan was called as Periya Udayar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Archescientist (talk • contribs) 06:23, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

All interesting stuff. I don't see what difference it makes regarding your initial objections, though - none of the quotes appear to tie up with those objections, which appear to be original research because you are inferring things from what is said. - Sitush (talk) 09:11, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Even pot making 'kuyavan' also UDAYAR, LOW CASTE BELONGS TO SC ST FireShathriyan (talk) 12:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Kindly see the history which we have added earlier. We have mentioned the same information. But the content has been removed by you people and asked for source. Now we have provided the source. Since am from Tami nadu i know the actual status. What we have provided is the true information. We have nothing added unrelevent or untruth information. We request you people to read the content what we have added with the help of reference provided by us. Also we requesting you to added those content in this page. Bkr087 (talk) 05:08, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Who is "we"? The Mighty Glen (talk) 06:36, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

We is group of people from the udayar community. Nothing else. Bkr087 (talk) 06:49, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Editors are not allowed to operate shared accounts. Your contributions are also nearly identical to those of User:Archescientist, so please note that WP:Sockpuppetry is also not allowed on Wikipedia. The Mighty Glen (talk) 09:44, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

It's ok. It's not shared account. Accidently two accounts has been created. bkr087 will not be no longer exist. I will use only archiscientist. I request you to revert the page. Am the only person using the both account. I have not shared the account any one. Archescientist (talk) 10:51, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

I've asked for Bkr087 to be blocked as a sock per the above message. However, it is all very odd as the claims was that there is indeed a group of people from the Udayar community who are trying to influence content here, and that would imply more than one account being operated by more than one person. I'm beginning to lose a bit of faith in this situation and it isn't helped because the quotes given from the sources do not appear to support the points that are desired for inclusion. - Sitush (talk) 12:44, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

about your article

Why you mention specially that udayar is higher than vellalar Why you not mention konar chettiyar Sudden you change Udayar is higher than vellalar Alexis sebastin (talk) 12:24, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

We have to reflect what the sources say. See the information at WP:V. - Sitush (talk) 12:27, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Wrong information

The first reference in the page is wrongly attributed and in fact just tells the opposite regarding the social hierarchy and the ratings of udyar and other castes below the vellalar community. Ref. page no. 23. This needs to be corrected to avoid spreading false information. Xavinanotech (talk) 10:06, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I cannot see page 23 of that source but the statement does align with what is attributed to the next source, which says "The three dominant caste groups of the region - namely, Pallar, Kallar and Udayar, collectively known as Marava castes ..." - see [1]. Can someone please provide a quote from around p 23 of the first source. - Sitush (talk) 00:07, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Please check in google books. It is freely available. One can see page 23 too. Again you are referring to second part of the statement which is right in showing a group of castes and ignoring the wrong info about the hierarchy which is the first part of the sentence. This needs to be corrected. Xavinanotech (talk) 17:13, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

No, I cannot see it. Google Books does not show the same content everywhere in the world - see User:Sitush/Common#GBooks. - Sitush (talk) 17:17, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I am able to see it; in Germany. I am writing down the paragraph. If you have email I can send a screen shot.

"In terms of the caste hierarchy in Tamilnadu, the Vellalas are ranked higher than the socially humbler Nadar, Udayar, Kallar, and Pallar caste groups."

It is very clear what is written in the Wikipedia page about is wrong even from the quoted reference and also from several other commonly available sources. Xavinanotech (talk) 17:43, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I do not need a screenshot. How do you propose that we word it, given that the next source says the Maravas are dominant? I suppose "dominant" may mean in terms of numbers or politics or something like that, rather than in social status. - Sitush (talk) 17:46, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

In my opinion, comparing two different castes is not good for political reasons. Whoever wrote this had some political motive or interest in comparing two particular castes. Now it has been changed to humbler, I see. Referencing Vellalar can be removed, as it is irrelevant, otherwise you need to include that they are below mudaliars, bhramins and chettys too, which is not going to help. Xavinanotech (talk) 17:52, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I am not worried about the political issues, as long as the source is reliable. Wikipedia is not censored. But without being able to see that source I cannot determine the relevance of the remark and, as you say, there are plenty of higher-ranked communities. There must surely be some relevance to it - people do not just throw out statements like that in academic books. - Sitush (talk) 18:03, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. There must be some good reason for such a comparative statement in the book. Xavinanotech (talk) 18:18, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

• @Sitush:--Check this edit.~ Winged Blades^Godric 04:07, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks. I wasn't editing for six or seven weeks around that time. This is what happens regularly to caste articles when I go away or am ill (the latter far too often). We need more people keeping an eye on the things because, with the best will in the world, I sometimes miss changes when I review everything that has happened on my return. With apologies to anyone who has been offended etc by what has gone on but, yes, I can't do it all. - Sitush (talk) 06:11, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Udayar social status.

Udayars are typically formers they are humbler then vellars. Its one of the socially low caste in Tamil Nadu. The information which has provided in the reference book is absolute correct. Please see the below references that Udayars are one of the socially low caste. 1. Indian Anthropologist, Volume 2, Issue 1. Refer page no 1. " Udaiyar people fall under cholas dynasty in tamilnadu. Mostly the king and their relatives are fall under this caste. King rajaraja cholan another name is “Udayar” by the history. The Udayars have caste association called Parkkavakula sangam which includes Malayaman (Malaiman),Nathaman, Sruthimmar, Moopanar, Nainar. Among these Malayaman and Nathaman are frequently using the title Udaiyar."

The above reference clearly stating that Udayars are backward or low caste.

2. Religion and Society in South India: A Volume in Honour of Prof. N. Subba Reddy. Page 4. "Udayars claimed that there were three divisions: Nattamar (Nattamaar), Maiai- mar (Malaimaar, or sometimes Malaiyamaar), and Sudarmar (Sudarmaar, or sometimes Surudiyamaar)."

3. http://www.whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_26/introduction_1.html

"No. 422 referring to Nanurruvan Malayaman alias Rajendrasolach-chediyarayan and dated in the 15th year of the king states that his daughter Alavandal and wife of Malaiyaman Raman Surriyan alias Rajendrasola Malaiyakularayan of Kiliyur, caused the image of the goddess of Palliyarai to be set up in the temple of Tiruppulippagavadevar of Sirringur in Kurukkaikkurram in Miladu in Rajaraja-valanadu, for the merit of her mother (achchi) Udaiyan Suriyadevi alias Ninratavanjeydal. This lady is referred to as the wife of Nanurruvan Malaiyaman alias Rajendrasolach-chedirayan in a record of his predecessor discussed above (No. 409). It records that Alavandal purchased two veli of lands in Sirringur, from Vikkiramasolach-chediyarayan son of Rajavirarajendrasolach-chediyarayan, and granted it as iraiyili-devadana to the same deity for worship and offerings ".

On the above references its clearly stating that Udayars are belongs to chola kingdom slavery people and socially low caste. So, please revert your mistake and request to add above content as well. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 07:05, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

I fail to make heads or tails about how any of the three references support your assertions about the relative social hiearchy of Udayars. You need to read WP:HISTRS and User:Sitush/CasteSources, note that inscriptions and editorial synthesis aren't reliable by our standards and be aware that we are not an indicriminate collection of trivia.Best,~ Winged Blades^Godric 09:11, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

If you want to uneditable source please refer the below link and follow the steps to view or download the theses in pdf format:--

1. Browse the url- http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in

2. Enter the following number 1742 in search box Stating (Enter thesis number). After enter the above thesis number and click search.

3. It will redirect to respective thesis page.You can view the thesis information as well as the thesis pdf.

For reference

"Title: Formation and dynamics of power in rural areas: a study of a village in Tamilnadu

Researcher: Annamalai, V

Guide(s): Sudharshanam, G

University: University of Hyderabad".

4. Go to file in this item section you can see the various chapters under it.

5.Please open the below chapter "11_chapter 4.pdf".

6.In the pdf go to the page no 155.

7.You can see the topic called b) Inter-caste relationship. If you Move to second paragraph you can see the below phase:--

"caste groups are more or less in congruence with economic categories -Kallars, Udayars and Konars and Gounders are mostly formers and cultivators who can be placed in the low social and ritual ranking. The servicing castes like Asaris, Vannars, etc., though own lands and cultivate, can be placed in the middle or lower of the hierarchy. The lowest ranking castes are Pusaris and Paraiyars (SO - largely agricultural labourers working for both Udayars and Kallars)".

The above phase clearly stating that Udayars and parayars are placed in the lower social.

8.Now you go to the Vellalar wiki page. You can see the Gounders are part of the Vellalar.

So it's clearly stating that udayar and vellalars are equal in social status. So, please change the word socially humbler to socially equal or remove the line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aravindkrishna088 (talk • contribs) 13:21, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

These research papers are seldom reliable, in comparison to the currently-present scholarly sources and we don't synthesize facts.~ Winged Blades^Godric 14:02, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Don't need to synthesize point 7 and 8. Point 7 itself stating udayars are socially low. Its from the single source. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 14:21, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Please indent using your posts by using one more colon (:), at the start of your own reply, than what is present at the start of the reply you're replying to.It helps in maintaining an easily-followable conversation and is a part of talk-page-guidelines.~ Winged Blades^Godric 15:59, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

The current source in the article mentions that Udayars are a dominant caste-group, which (sort of) equates to being at the lowest rungs of social hiearchy, but not highest, in light of the fact that it explicitly mentions that Udayars are socially lower w.r.t to Vellars.Unless and until, you bring a reliable modern source, that, in equally explicit terms refutes the particular claims of relative social hierarchy between the two castes, the article will not be changed.Best,~ Winged Blades^Godric 16:03, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Please refer the below url. http://www.bcmbcmw.tn.gov.in/bclist.htm.Its about the list of backward clases classified by Tamil nadu government. Also its a government portal. There you can see the vellalar and udayar are become under same classification. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 20:29, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Nope.Government sources aren't remotely reliable as to classification of caste-hiearchy and often varies extensively from state to state.Also, it's pure original research and synthesis on your part to conclude that all the 248 castes, sub-castes and what not mentioned at the list, are socially equivalent.That's as nonsensical as saying that all castes which are under the purview of Central Government's or different state Government's SC/OBC list do not have any relative social hierarchy, among-st themselves.~ Winged Blades^Godric 04:32, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Ok... When comes to your reference. Did your reference have any reason why and on what basis they are calling udayars are socially humbler than the vellalars. But when comes to reality in Tamilnadu both Vellalars and Udayar are in same hierarchy.If vellalars are socially higher than the udayar, nadar, kallar, pallar. Why this line has not present in nadar, kallar, pallar wiki pages.Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 07:22, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

We don't second-guess references, unless they are contradicted by an equally or more reliable source.Verifibility matters, not truth.Other stuff exists and I ain't much bothered about them.~ Winged Blades^Godric 09:59, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

We have already given lot of prof form various source. We have given book source, inscription source, thesis source. All sources are clearly stating that Udayars are socially low and both vellalar and Udayar are in same hierarchy. Buy on your side you have only one reference which stating udayars are humbler than vellalars. But that to without proper explanation. So, please remove the line and rectify your mistake.Also We couldn't see the word "Udayar are socially humbler than vellalar " in your reference book page no 87. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 10:39, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

This's my last comment on the topic, for you are now mis-representing your own sources and your editing pattern looks very likely to be an effort to right great wrongs.I will re-assert that a bunch of unreliable sources coupled with a complete unfamiliarity of the topic-scape and a bunch of synthesis has not helped and will not help your cause.Adios! :)~ Winged Blades^Godric 11:58, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Winged Blades. - Sitush (talk) 03:00, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

I find it funny when I read this. Hahaha, Udayars are socially humbler than Vellars? Who are vellars? All I know is Vellalars. And I don't know about which Udayars are humbler than which Vellalars. But all I knew is that our village has Malayaman Udayars and Kongu Vellala Gounders. Until 40 years ago, Kongu Vellala Gounders are not allowed to enter the houses of Malayaman Udayars. Those Kongu Vellala Gounders are called as "Padi aalunga" who served in the fields of Malayaman Udayars. I knew that Kongu Vellala Gounders are too "Kudiyanavar" like Udayars. But, I don't know why this practice in our village. But that humbler thing made me laugh out. The village is Ramanathapuram Pudur, Sendamangalam, Namakkal. One of my friends grandfather still alive aged 96 years is the only person who allowed Kongu Vellala Gounder inside his house. The Kongu Vellalar women aged around 80 still recalls this fact. And Vaithilingam is the Zamindar of our village still alive aged 90s. Its funny how some Vellalars are trying to come up with this humbler joke. Did you read the "Family and Education" part of G.K. Vasan? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Vasan. I have nothing against Vellalars. But just a 100% true fact.

Edit permission required .

Am planing to add more information about Udayar without modifying the existing content. We request you to provide me the edit permission. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 05:35, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Protections are primarily meant to vet content at t/p a-prior to it's inclusion.Please post your sought changes over here. ~ Winged Blades^Godric 06:30, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

I want to add the below content in udayar artical page.

'Udayar' is an ancient title which has been used to connote authority, sanctity, wealth, and power in the person or god to whom the appellation is given. 'Udayar' therefore is more usefully understood as a caste title than as a name denoting only a specific caste category, or, more particularly, an endogenous unit.

The Udayars have caste association called Parkkavakula sangam which includes Nathaman, Malayaman, Sruthimmar, Moopanar, Nainar.

Udayars are mostly land owners and cultivators who can be placed in the higher social and ritual ranking. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 08:41, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Ping Sitush.Not interested to engage in another discourse.Can you take a look?! ~ Winged Blades^Godric 04:14, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

need edit permission to add the above content. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 04:36, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

References

See Udayar (title) and note that we should not use snippet views of sources because they are too easily taken out of context. I notice that page 155 of this, which you mention, doesn't remotely support what you claim, which is pretty much the same problem you have had in the section immediately preceding this one. Please stop misrepresenting sources. - Sitush (talk) 03:14, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

With regards to Udayar Title, i didn't give only snippet view of source, on the second reference i have given where the book available as pdf formet. If you want that pdf please provide your mail id will send the pdf.

Regards to page 155, its true. If you see the sub caste of udayars you come to know how powerful they are. If you see the sub caste Malayaman - Malayaman are chieftains who ruled from base thirukkovilure. Closely associated with cheran and chola. Every one know that. Please check the below reference https://books.google.co.in/books?id=VuvshP5_hg8C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false. Refer page no 102, 103. Even i can give lot of reference from the book as pdf and in tamil as well. I can send you the inscription details and purananooru literature reference as a pdf. Udayars are not simply a cultivator they are also a velirs (ksathriyas).  Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 09:32, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Which bit of WP:SYNTHESIS do you not understand? - Sitush (talk) 11:24, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Page Update

I would like to update the page in below format, also added valuable information from reliable source. I request you to verify and add the same to the respective page. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 16:37, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps propose your changes here, with reliable sources? Eg: "change X to Y" or "add A after B". - Sitush (talk) 16:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

see comment below - Sitush (talk) 17:52, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Replace the complete page with the below one. The Udayar (Udaiyar, Udaiyaar) is a caste found in the Indian state of Tamil Nadu. 'Udayar' is an ancient title which has been used to connote authority, sanctity, wealth, and power in the person or god to whom the appellation is given. 'Udayar' therefore is more usefully understood as a caste title than as a name denoting only a specific caste category, or, more particularly, an endogenous unit. Udayars are high caste, typically landowners and chieftains, often politically important group in Tamil Nadu. They are primarily found in Salem, North Arcot, South Arcot, Trichy district of Tamil Nadu. Etymology In tamil,The word Udayar refers as God ,The Protector, The King, The Chief. In other term it refer as wealth and Power. Clasifications and History The Udayars have caste association called Parkkavakula sangam which includes Malayaman (Malaiman),Nathaman, Sruthimmar, Moopanar, Nainar (Tamil Jain).Among these Malayaman and Nathaman are frequently using the title Udayar. Few Udayars are using the title Nainar. The term nainar is said to be derived from Nayanmmar mean Saint. It is said that one of their ancestors, Maiporul Nainar. Malayamn was hereditary title of the cheifs of maladu. Their head quaters are koval, morden days Thirukkovilur. On the banks of the rever pennai. The clans most famous king was Malayaman Thirumud kari. They are feudatory of chola king. Rajaraja chola's mother Vanavan mahadevi is belong to malayaman clan. She has commited sati on Sundra chola's death.Kunthavi the daughter of Vanavan mahadevi has installed his mother's bronze portrait icon in Tanjore temple. Along with Chola and Pandiya coins, Malayaman coin also found in Tamil Nadu. Udayar Christian Some Udayars are Roman Catholic Christians. According to Selva Raj, the Udayar are "socially humbler" than the Vellalar community but, together with the Pallar and Kallar, form the Marava castes, who are quite dominant in the region variously known as Ramnad and the Maravar country. In Ramnad and the nearby areas of Pudukottai, Madurai, Salem, Nammakal, Tanjore and Trichy, they and their two fellow Maravar caste groups are prominent in their cult worship of the shrine at Oriyur that commemorates John de Britto, a 17th-century Portuguese Jesuit missionary and martyr. Raj says, "A notable feature of the Britto cult is that it is centered around caste identities rather than religious affiliation", and thus members of the caste-group, irrespective of their religious affiliation regard Britto as their clan-deity. References

No. You cannot expect people to wade through all of that, comparing with the existing content. Make your suggestions in smaller chunks, please. - Sitush (talk) 17:52, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Please also note that at least four of those citations use sources that are not reliable. Tamils 1800 Years Ago and The People of India will not do. - Sitush (talk) 17:54, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Kindly add the below content after the "The Udayar are a caste found in the state of Tamil Nadu, India." As a new paragraph.

'Udayar' is an ancient title which has been used to connote authority, sanctity, wealth, and power in the person or god to whom the appellation is given. 'Udayar' therefore is more usefully understood as a caste title than as a name denoting only a specific caste category, or, more particularly, an endogenous unit.

Udayars are high caste, typically landowners and chieftains, often politically important group in Tamil Nadu. They are primarily found in Salem, North Arcot, South Arcot, Trichy district of Tamil Nadu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aravindkrishna088 (talk • contribs) 02:48, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

References

• We cannot do that first paragraph you propose. You are just copying word for word what Baden Powell said in the 1890s. Raj era sources are not considered reliable. The second paragraph is ok but don't we already say it? - Sitush (talk) 03:47, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• By the way, your second paragraph is effectively a breach of WP:COPYRIGHT. Perhaps unavoidable given the source you used but it does indicate that our present phrasing/sourcing might be better. - Sitush (talk) 03:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Regards to first paragraph really am not understand what you are saying. It just saying the purpose and usage of title. It always remain same. The meaning will not get change. Also it has written in book. Please add it. Second pragraph- yes you should add it. Already exists in the page is for christian Udayar. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 06:04, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

If you read this talk page, you will notice that this article is not about the title, for which we have a separate article precisely because there has been so much disruption. I have no idea what you mean about the second paragraph already existing " in the page is for christian Udayar". We do not appear to have an article for Christian Udayars. - Sitush (talk) 06:17, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Then as per tamilnadu government there is no caste called Udayar. Then i request you to remove the page. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 07:05, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Since there is no caste called Udayar in tamil nadu. Its necessary to tell it is a title has sharing by multiple caste. So add the content. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 18:14, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I do not understand your point. We have several sources already that do speak of the Udayar. Whether the government of Tamil Nadu refer to them is really not relevant in this scenario. - Sitush (talk) 18:29, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

this is for your reference.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=CBIwAQAAIAAJ&q=parkavakulam&dq=parkavakulam&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibztXwjo7bAhXKO48KHc25B-8Q6AEIODAF. It's not a caste its surname using by various caste. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 01:38, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

please read the below line. 'Udayar' therefore is more usefully understood as a caste title than as a name denoting only a specific caste category, or, more particularly, an endogenous unit. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 01:52, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I think I have already told you that "states" series of The People of India is not considered a reliable source. In any event, any combination of letters can be a name and also be something else; specifically in the case of caste, the Reddy caste exist but so does Helen Reddy, who has nothing to do with it but bears the name. - Sitush (talk) 04:07, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Udayar not lower than vellalar.

Now T-banned.∯WBGconverse 04:54, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Kindly refer below wiki page. Read the major division part. Vellalars are in all type of status. How your are saying udayars are humbler than Vellalars. Its completely false statement. Also any one can be a vellalar at any time. So please remove the statement. There is nothing true init. https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Vellalar.html Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 10:27, 25 June 2018 (UTC) See WP:CIRCULAR and WP:MIRROR. ∯WBGconverse 12:53, 25 June 2018 (UTC) kindly see the below reference. Some vellalar dalits are in Tamil Nadu. Udayars are not lower than Vellalars. Please remove the sentence. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=V16TAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT317&dq=Vellalars&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwigwuq6z_DbAhVEvY8KHaJsCJM4FBDoAQg-MAU#v=onepage&q=Vellalars&f=false Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 06:04, 26 June 2018 (UTC) See WP:SYNTH.I'm afraid that courtesy your I-will-not-listen behavior and an ultimate intention to glorify a particular caste, you're nearing the threshold of block-land.Further posts will be removed, in accordance with the warning on the top of this page. ∯WBGconverse 04:13, 27 June 2018 (UTC) Am not here to come glorify a particular caste, am asking you why you are glorifying particular caste.please refer the line "Udayars are socially humbler than vellalar". This page is about Udayars. There is no necessary to compare with other caste. Also i have given lot of valid proof for Udayar is also a prestigious caste in Tamil nadu. The people how are doing agriculture is called Vellalar.please understand Vellalar is not a caste. Anyone can become a vellalar. That's why you can see vellalar related castes in different grades. Please remove the contradictory line. Aravindkrishna088 (talk) 06:21, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Udayar and vellalar are all same isnot the right statement. No one cannot be a vellalar at any time is not acceptable. Udayar's have lots of controvercies about how they are telling that they are tamilans. Whats thier life history? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamilan82 (talk • contribs) 18:14, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 September 2018

Unionm (talk) 23:56, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ∯WBG^converse 06:07, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Kshatriya

@AnomieBOT:,@Sitush:,@Bishonen:,@RexxS: North Indian only follow the Varna system.South Indian not follow the Varna system.Udaiyar (Caste) is south Indian.caste.Kshatriya varna is Royal Dynastry.but udaiyar not an Zamindar and royal family.So unreference source Varna kindly remove.106.203.32.161 (talk) 12:58, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Jkalaiarasan86 (talk · contribs) possibly evading the block by editing from ip. The spelling "dynasTRY" is suspicious [2] Nittawinoda (talk) 16:41, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 February 2019

Please remove the lines that Udayars are "socially Humbler" than Vellalar. Which is not at all true but which was and is the other way about. The vellalar community was depending on this udayar community for their livelihood. John Antonydas (talk) 20:44, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:26, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 November 2019

148.252.129.170 (talk) 23:25, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. -- LuK3 (Talk) 23:46, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2020

Udayar or Parkavakulam is the Tamil speaking caste found in Tamilnadu, The subdivisions are named as Malayaman, Nattaman, Surutiman, Moopanar and Nayinar). The meaning of Udaiyar means the landholders. They are warlike people in ancient times. Now the major population is found in Ariyalur, Perambalur, Trichirappalli, Thanjavur, Kallakurichi and Salem. They were spread around the Tamilnadu and nearby states. Busybee90 (talk) 15:55, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Thjarkur (talk) 16:06, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

1) https://books.google.co.in/books?id=jAMdAQAAMAAJ&dq=udayars&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Udayar Page no: 36

2) https://in.sagepub.com/en-in/sas/contributions-to-indian-sociology/journal200929#description Page no:36

3) https://books.google.co.in/books?id=jimnj2GjmhcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Formation+and+Transformation+of+Power+in+Rural+India.&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiV29rQyPDaAhVCrI8KHbDlDdsQ6AEIJDAA#v=onepage&q=Formation%20and%20Transformation%20of%20Power%20in%20Rural%20India.&f=false Page no: 36

4)

Palanithurai, Ganapathy; Ragupathy, Varadarajan (2008). Communities Panchayats and Governance at Grassroots. Concept Publishing Company. பக். 138. பன்னாட்டுத் தரப்புத்தக எண்:9788180695636.

5)

Raj, Selva J. (2002). "Transgressing Boundaries, Transcending Turner: The Pilgrimage Tradition at the Shrine of St. John de Britto". in Raj, Selva J.; Dempsey, Corinne G.. Popular Christianity in India: Riting Between the Lines. SUNY Press. பக். 87. பன்னாட்டுத் தரப்புத்தக எண்:978-0-79145-519-7.
"List of Backward Classes approved by Government of Tamil Nadu". Muhil.malaiyaman (talk) 18:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Very false statements in the Etymology section about the caste of parkavakulam or Udayar. Some people purposefully edited the wiki page and spreading the hate information against the Udayar caste . Udayar or Parkavakulam or Nathaman people are not potters or Pott makers. It's a wrong information. They are currently doing agriculture and most of the people of this community are big landlords. That's what they are calling as Udayar. Please revert the changes

Please update the below details: Parkavakulam or Udayar is the Tamil speaking caste found in Tamilnadu, The subdivisions are named as Malayaman, Nattaman, Surutiman, Moopanar and Nayinar). The meaning of Udaiyar means the landholders. They are warlike people in ancient times. Now the major population is found in Ariyalur, Perambalur, Trichirappalli, Thanjavur, Kallakurichi and Salem. They were spread around the Tamilnadu and nearby states Muhil.malaiyaman (talk) 18:25, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Sources: 1) https://books.google.co.in/books?id=jAMdAQAAMAAJ&dq=udayars&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Udayar Page no: 36

2) https://in.sagepub.com/en-in/sas/contributions-to-indian-sociology/journal200929#description Page no:36

3) https://books.google.co.in/books?id=jimnj2GjmhcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Formation+and+Transformation+of+Power+in+Rural+India.&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiV29rQyPDaAhVCrI8KHbDlDdsQ6AEIJDAA#v=onepage&q=Formation%20and%20Transformation%20of%20Power%20in%20Rural%20India.&f=false Page no: 36

4)

Palanithurai, Ganapathy; Ragupathy, Varadarajan (2008). Communities Panchayats and Governance at Grassroots. Concept Publishing Company. பக். 138. பன்னாட்டுத் தரப்புத்தக எண்:9788180695636.

5)

Raj, Selva J. (2002). "Transgressing Boundaries, Transcending Turner: The Pilgrimage Tradition at the Shrine of St. John de Britto". in Raj, Selva J.; Dempsey, Corinne G.. Popular Christianity in India: Riting Between the Lines. SUNY Press. பக். 87. பன்னாட்டுத் தரப்புத்தக எண்:978-0-79145-519-7.
"List of Backward Classes approved by Government of Tamil Nadu". Muhil.malaiyaman (talk) 18:49, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

"The word Udayar in Tamil means unbreaker as or Possessor of Mud pot and or Nathaman lived in ungoverned or un authorized land called natham ( waste land ) i.e. natham porampokku (waste land ).[citation needed] these udayar are Muan-Udhayar ( potter or pot maker ) and kal udayar - brick maker. They were performing agricultural works, slavery work , pot making, brick carving and wall constructions"

The above mentioned details are totally wrong and some one purposefully edited, because that person wants to spread the rumours and slander news about Udayar caste. There is no proof for that content mentioned in the Etymology section. So please revert his changes Muhil.malaiyaman (talk) 19:12, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

False information and personal vengeance

The details updated in this topic was totally false information and it was edited and protected for the reason of communal attack, the details mentioned in this topic was totally wrong and there is no proof for this. Wikipedia administrator should need to check and update the right information, this is not the place for showing their personal vengeance. Busybee90 (talk) 07:26, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2020

{pp-dispute|expiry=19:04, 6 January 2018|small=yes}}

This article is about the Indian caste. For other uses, see Udayar.

Udaiyarஉடையார் title has using a Nathaman Udaiyar,Malaiyaman Udaiyar and suruthiman udaiyar who's are originating from Parkavakulam community Tamil Nadu state in India. The Tamil term had frequently used by the Tamil country chiefs which it has found occasionally among their titles of ancient rulers in inscriptions. Udayar has sometimes spelt as Udayar or Odayar whom has the persons in the Chola dynasty and Cholas are now calling as udayar mentioning the whole as parkavakulam community. King Rajaraja Cholan had called as Periya Udayar.

Etymology

Udayar' is an ancient title which it has providing connote authority, sanctity, wealth, and power whom has given judgement from the person or god. Malaiyaman,Nathaman and suruthiman has One reaching more than forward classes in India if you are use Udaiyar.

References

South Indian King dynasties

,

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2020 (2)

{pp-dispute|expiry=19:04, 6 January 2018|small=yes}}

This article is about the Indian caste. For other uses, see Udayar.

Udaiyarஉடையார் title has using a Nathaman Udaiyar,Malaiyaman Udaiyar and suruthiman udaiyar who's are originating from Parkavakulam community Tamil Nadu state in India. The Tamil term had frequently used by the Tamil country chiefs which it has found occasionally among their titles of ancient rulers in inscriptions. Udayar has sometimes spelt as Udayar or Odayar whom has the persons in the Chola dynasty and Cholas are now calling as udayar mentioning the whole as parkavakulam community. King Rajaraja Cholan had called as Periya Udayar.

Etymology

Udayar' is an ancient title which it has providing connote authority, sanctity, wealth, and power whom has given judgement from the person or god. Malaiyaman,Nathaman and suruthiman has One reaching more than forward classes in India if you are use Udaiyar.

References

South Indian King dynasties

,

Bc category

Udayar or parkavankulam under bc category Ammu ammu097 (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Wrong interpretation

This hole article is about agamadayar not udayar. Udayar Or nathama udayar are part of parkavakulam, which itself is large sect consisting of moopanar suruthiman malaiyaman and nathanan udaiyar. But agamadayar's are part of mukulathor. If you want you can refer Tamilnadu backward caste list. Pls make necessary changes. Senthil451 (talk) 09:33, 17 September 2022 (UTC)