Talk:Twybil

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Expanding and renaming the article

I believe this article should be renamed "Mortising Axe". Twybil is a regional variation of a much larger family of tools.

We have the "piochon" or "kreuzaxt", which is essentially a hafted twybil. Its broader blade is often, though not always double-beveled.
There also exists a tool called "bisaigüe", which is akin to twybil, but much larger.
Then, we have the "stossaxt" or "demi bisaigüe", without the mortising chisel end. It is used with a pushing action.
"Lochaxt" is a hafted mortising axe with one bit.
There are two variations of twybil, one of which could be termed a double-bit mortising axe, and the other a double-bit mortising knife.
There also exist instances of one-bit mortising knives that I read were used for willow and such.
In addition to the mentioned tools, there exists a one-bit post axe that is struck by a mallet.

"Mortising axe" is the name under which most of these various tools are currently being sold, even though it is not necessarily the most representative word for describing a tool family, which includes tools related not only to axes, but slicks, chisels and knives as well.

Tritonist (talk) 15:42, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, "Morticing Axe" would be a more appropriate name for a British English article such as this.

Tritonist (talk) 15:51, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This would be a bad rename. They are not axes. A common misconceptiopn (and why so many old twybils are damaged) is that they are axes, and they're then used as such, causing either damage or injury.

I cannot comment on other languages. However in English, this article already has several references (even the one you deleted) that describe them under a range of names, none of which are "axes". I would be suspicious of any assumed etymology based on Germanic languages, because "axt" has as much of a derivation from implements like the seax as it does from hafted axes.

You make many claims here, but cite no references. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:51, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here is some information on the piochons, bisaigües and demi bisaigues... Figure 10 has an image of a mortising knife. The article is in French, but you can use Google Translate to get a nearly satisfactory translation.

http://www.mot.be/w/1/index.php/Reading/NotesSurTroisOutilsAnciensDuCharpentier?language=En

An example of a single-beveled piochon. They are usually double-beveled.

http://www.en.charpentiers.culture.fr/tools/regionaldiversity/diversityofbroadaxes/alsatianpickaxehautrhin?media

Bandhacke/bunbdaxt/lochaxt/vorhauaxt. several examples. In Germany, the same tool is/was used for notching logs prior to hewing.

http://hobelaxt.wordpress.com/2011/04/24/5cm-a/

http://hobelaxt.wordpress.com/2010/01/07/30cm-lochaxt-morticing-axe-a/

http://hobelaxt.wordpress.com/2010/01/07/5cm-lochaxt-morticing-axe-a/

The American form of the tool often has a heavier poll. It is mainly used for making through mortises into fenceposts, hence the name "post axe" (Henry Chapman Mercer, Ancient Carpenters' Tools, p. 172, 175

http://books.google.com/books?id=_SsjWkzsTYsC&lpg=PP1&dq=ancient%20carpenters%20tools&hl=fi&pg=PA172#v=onepage&q=axe&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_SsjWkzsTYsC&lpg=PP1&dq=ancient%20carpenters%20tools&hl=fi&pg=PA175#v=onepage&q=axe&f=false

I have seen instructions dictating that you hit the poll with a mallet, but now that I think about it, I have even read that you should hit the twybil handle with a mallet.

One option would be adding an article called "mortising axe" to wikipedia. Or perhaps "mortising tools" with a redirect from "mortising axe". In my opinion the tools share enough similarities to warrant one article, even if the Twybil article would be preserved here as it is. Bisaigue and twybil are clearly just two forms of the same tool. Even piochon is very closely related. Then again, lochaxt is closely related to the piochon, the only difference being the lack of the second bit. Demi bisaigue is similarly a close relative of the bisaigue, with the other bit lacking. I think one unified article would serve the reader better than dividing the subject matter into several different articles.

There is very little information on the topic in the internet at the moment, but I think that with collaborative effort in Wikipedia, the situation could be improved.

Tritonist (talk) 18:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Those are a lot of references, all of which describe different tools. Ancient Carpenters' Tools even describes the twilbil and how it's distinguished from the axes.

If you want to write an article on mortising axes, then by all means do so - and these are references to support it. However that still doesn't make twybils part of it, or a reason to effectively delete this article as a distinct page. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]