Talk:Twelfth Night (holiday)/Archive 1

Archive 1

When is it?

Stupid question I know but is it the 5th or the 6th? In my culture i.e. that of a Nothern Britain (christian/agnostic), its the 6th, but please can we have some confirmation? Medscin 19:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

It's the 5th, which is the 12th day counting from Christmas, with Christmas as the first day. The Epiphany has its own Octave, and the day after that Octave begins a new season liturgy-wise (though Christmas as a part of the larger liturgical cycle and as a "spiritual season" doesn't end until Candlemas). This page explains things: http://www.fisheaters DOT com/customschristmas1.html (and these pages explain Twelfth Night and the Epiphany: http://www.fisheaters DOT com/epiphanyeve.html and http://www.fisheaters DOT com/customschristmas8.html ) TigerLille 21:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I maintain (as I have maintained at the Twelve Days of Christmas discussion) that the Twelve Days are Dec 26 - Jan 6 inclusive and that Twelfth Night is January 6 and not the 5th, and should thus be removed from the link on January 5 which currently and confusingly says "The eleventh day of Christmas in Western Christianity, and the Twelfth Night of Christmas in Western Christianity", However, I will not do so as I believe some discussion is required first. As I see it, the solution depends on whether Twelfth Night celebrations were made on January 5th or 6th, and I note that celebrations were held on both Twelfth-Night Eve (Jan 5) and Twelfth Night (Jan 6), but the latter were the main ones. The best sources I know to quote are Sir James Frazer, William Hone and Robert Chambers, all expert 19th-century British folklorists. Frazer says "The last of the mystic twelve days is Epiphany or Twelfth Night", and Epiphany is January 6 -- I know some will say it began on the Eve but that was called Twelfth-Night Eve or Epiphany Eve and had different festivities. Hone says the Twelfth Night celebrations were on the night of January 6 (and the lesser ones on January 5 were called Twelfth-Night Eve) and Chambers also asserts that although there were some apparently minor "rustic" festivals in England on January 5 (Twelfth-Night Eve), the main Twelfth Night festivities were on the next night, ie, the night of Twelfth Day (January 6). I suggest that unless someone betters these sources within a reasonable amount of time, any Wikipedian should make the changes required on the various pages. With respect, TigerLille, I think DOT com/epiphanyeve.html fisheaters's statement "The Eve of the Feast of the Epiphany is the twelfth day of Christmas" is not correct, based on the three prominent folklorists I refer to above. Alpheus 01:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

• And I maintain that it's not "the 26th through the 6th", it's "the evening of the 25th through and/or including the evening of the 6th". Wahkeenah 01:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
• It's the fifth. D. Wo. 05:25, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
  • What, exactly, is the 5th??? Wahkeenah 05:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Not to start a US/UK arguement, I think the American's "celebrate" twelfth night on the 5/1 hence the reasons its stated as this, Wikipedia AFAIK an American based website, while us Brits "celebrate" it on the 6/1, though thats just a guess, the Collins Dictionary states it as being "evening of the 6th Jan.: also of 5th Jan

and PS, I really didn't want to start a huge arguement, sorry! Medscin 17:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Dunno if this makes more sense but it's how we do it in our household:

Today, the Twelfth Night after Christmas means the day(!) we take down the decorations. Twelfth Night is the evening of the 5th January and all day of 6th January. It was common in the olden days to start a special day at 6pm the previous evening and to have the Night or Eve coming before the Day, as in Christmas Eve or Night coming before Christmas Day and New Year's Eve before New Year's Day. The actual date for Twelfth Night has caused much confusion for years and still does today. The fact that Twelfth Night is also part of Twelfth Day adds to the confusion.Source ie 12th night starts on the 5th and finishes on the 6th, which is when you take your decs down. adamsan 21:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

What the Oxford English Dictionary says (under 'Twelfth-night') is: 'The evening before Twelfth-day, formerly observed as a time of merry-making.' Under 'Twelfth-day', it says: 'The twelfth day after Christmas; the sixth of January, on which the festival of the Epiphany is celebrated; formerly observed as the closing day of the Christmas festivities.' Sdoerr (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The way I see it is this: twelfth night is the 5th but 13 is unlucky. so we should have the decorations down by the thirteenth night. Thats why people take their decorations down on the 6th (before the night of the 13th). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.109.156 (talk) 22:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Just to add my two-penn'orth. There is obviously no right answer since evidence exists for both. By a purely mechanical means of calculation, starting Christmas at midnight on 24th/25th December, and supposing the first night was 25th/26th, one would think that there could be no doubt that 5th/6th was Twelfth Night. (Supposing that festivals were considered to start the evening before makes things worse: first night is 24th/25th and Twelfth Night would be 4th/5th Jan, which no-one maintains.)

This strand of argument is important, however, as Christian festivals start on the vigil (at dusk the day before) and Christmas is a Christian Festival still! Hence Midnight Mass is valid from dusk on Christmas Eve. we must remember that in most of human history there was no electric light and so the day ended when the natural light ended. Our modern view is invalid in understanding something that evolved over a thousand years ago. So 12th night is indeed earlier than we assume and the Epiphany feast runs from dusk on the 5th until dusk on the 6th (176.26.0.14 (talk) 21:10, 25 January 2014 (UTC)jkw 25/1/14).

  But these things are not always purely rationally decided.  An earlier authority even than those cited by Alpheus is Samuel Pepys[1].  He refers to the evenings of various 6ths of January as Twelfth Night; records seeing Shakespeare's play Twelfth Night on 6th January 1663 and on January 6th 1665 writes: 

To my office again, being pretty well reconciled to my wife, which I did desire to be, because she had designed much mirthe to-day to end Christmas with among her servants. At night home, being twelfenight, and there chose my piece of cake, but went up to my viall, and then to bed, leaving my wife and people up at their sports, which they continue till morning, not coming to bed at all.

He never appears to be up to much on the evening of 5th January. Unequivocally, I think, Epiphany is called Twelfth Day but different dictionaries give, in their definitions, differing priority in identifying Twelfth Night as the Eve of Epiphany (night of 5/6)or to the night of Epiphany itself (6/7). I think the main article ought to reflect the fact that opinion and practice has varied. Galatian (talk) 11:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

What needs to be mentioned here is that in the Medieval Era, a day (a 24-hour period) began at sunset. In other words, the "evening" began the day (hence "eve" means coming before), not ended it. Thus, the "evening" of December 25 in Medieval-speak is what we today would call the evening of December 24/25, or "Christmas Eve". I side with those who hold that "Twelfth Night" is the evening before the day of January 5 (Jan. 4/5), not the evening after it. And that the Epiphany began on what today we would call the evening of Jan. 5/6. — Walloon (talk) 05:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I would not presume to attempt to resolve this matter, but I have at least attempted to capture the current undoubted confusion in the article introduction. I do not think it is "unequivocal" that Epiphany is called Twelfth Day, and if you count Christmas Day as the first day then Epiphany is NOT Twelfth Day. Sources do seem to be largely agreed that Twelfth Night precedes Twelfth Day as Walloon points out. We need to keep this factual, not POV. It is fact that there is confusion (I've added a citation of a source to demonstrate this). If anyone can add further facts as to which interpretation is "correct" and/or historically justified and/or meaningful, please do. But the confusion certainly exists regardless, so should continue to be acknowledged in the article. Mooncow (talk) 02:34, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

In particular, a good authoritative source to confirm that the twelve days should start AFTER Christmas Day (which I think is the correct interpretation), not ON Christmas Day, would be very helpful. If I find one, I will add it myself. Mooncow (talk) 02:00, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

To amplify sdoerr's entry above, quoting the OED (boldfacing added):

• Twelfth-night, n.

The evening before Twelfth-day, formerly observed as a time of merry-making.

• Twelfth-day, n.

The twelfth day after Christmas; the sixth of January, on which the festival of the Epiphany is celebrated; formerly observed as the closing day of the Christmas festivities. (Cf. the twelve days n. at twelve adj. and n. Compounds 1b.)

[The entry includes the following quotation:]

• 1863    R. Chambers Bk. of Days I. 61/1   January 6. This day, called Twelfth-day‥and Epiphany‥is a festival of the Church.

--Thnidu (talk) 01:46, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Chambers was as mistaken as the reporter who wrote the puff piece article at the beginning of the Article page. January 6 has always, always been the Epiphany since the fifth or sixth century, a completely separate season liturgically from Christmas. January 5 has always been the last DAY of Christmas, it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, at least for the forseeable future. The ONLY question about when Twelfth Night is is whether it falls on what is liturgically the twelfth night of Christmas, which would be the evening of January 4 to us modern day folks, or what we consider the evening of January 5 in our day. That is the only confusion. The Sixth of January is the Feast of the Epiphany, not a part of Christmas. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 17:19, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I think this article can easily rid itself of the stigma of non-neutrality, and has already gone a long way towards achieving that. There is no "correct" date (my reasoning is outline below) and in my opinion the date can never be satisfactorily determined. This article should continue to report both dates, and it may outline the dubious Mediaeval Maths behind each of them, but it must avoid indicating any preference for one date over the other. It may choose to explicitly state this, citing the absence of an ultimate authority.

I have personally heard claims and seen citations by adherents of both dates and on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean (25+ years in the UK, 30+ years in the USA). Neither of the two dates are exclusively or rigidly bound by any precise geographical or social alignment.A nd I have seen the dubiousness of Mediaeval Maths at work elsewhere (see Note 1 below). I think the focus and the purview of this article is "Twelfth Night as a cultural tradition" rather than some formally adopted feast day. That informality must mean that there is no ultimate authority vested with the power to determine the "official date" of Twelfth Night. And as I claim there can never be a "correct" date in that sense, then Wikipedia should not be tempted to seek a citable source for one. We must struggle on in our happy darkness.

If you are looking for some declaration from the "World Authority on Precise Dates for Vaguely Defined Traditions" you night have a lengthy wait. You might instead wish to visit those nice people at the "Feast of the Adoration of the Magi". And it looks like the folks down at the "Adoration of the Shepherds" could really use your assistance. Then here we can focus on the cultural customs associated with Twelfth Night, traditionally and variously held on the evening of January 5th or January 6th.

Note 1: To highlight the difficulty in attempting to derive accuracy from Mediaeval Date Maths, here's a different Christian date question which should be much easier to determine and answer:

Question: How many actual days are there in Lent?

Answer: Not 40 (unless you have very obscure beliefs to go with an obscure definition of the word "day"). Depending on whose Lent (which denomination) and when (which particular Lent) there are between 38 and 56 days in Lent. Both of my Western Protestant traditions have it at 46 days.

My point is that even with precise definitions for the extent of Lent, we cannot universally agree on the number of days in that important solemn period of fasting. There even seems to be universal disagreement with the Biblical tradition of 40 days. So should we really expect to determine the precise number of days before the date of a less rigorously defined tradition of frivolity, like Twelfth Night?

With thanks from ChrisJBenson (talk) 08:18, 5 January 2015 (UTC) (at the start of a day that will end with my celebration of Twelfth Night. You don't have to join me today, but you can if you wish).