Talk:Turks in the Netherlands

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Netherlands

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Notable people

Here is a list of notable Turks in the Netherlands who still do not have an article in English. *Note all these people have an article in either the Turkish or the Dutch wiki's- and in some cases both.

Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 14:26, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have just created List of Dutch Turks. The red links have the nl redirected but it would be great if we can translate them into English.Thetruthonly (talk) 14:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article class

I have changed the class from start to B.

Referencing & citations ✔
Coverage and accuracy ✔
Structure ✔
Grammar and style ✔
Supporting materials ✔

Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 14:12, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Population

There has recently been a minor edit war over the total population of Turks in the Netherlands. Here are a few references stating a population of 400,000:

Dutch News: [1]
NIS News: [2]
Netherlands Foreign Investment Agency: [3]
BBC News: [4]
EU Digest:[5]
Hurriyet Daily News: [6]
Hurriyet Daily News: [7]
TRT: [8]
American Institute for Contemporary German Studies: [9]

Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 16:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dutch Turks

I came here from Dutch Turks and expected to find a page of Turkish citizens of Dutch ancestry or origin. Is there nothing noteworthy about them? Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 13:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes there is, the Dutch have had a prominent trading history in Turkey since the 16th century, mostly concentrated in Istanbul and Izmir. With around 20.000 nationals living in Turkey they are also one of the main western populations in Turkey, and I think after Germans and British they have bought the most (summer) residences there, around Alanya and Bodrum. I wrote a short article on the Dutch Wiki: nl:Nederlandse Turken. The Ottoman Empire was the first nation to recognize the independence of the Dutch republic. The French, Italians and others advised against it, saying the Netherlands was "nothing more than a group of outlaw traders without a ruler". The Turks thought otherwise. Dutch traders and officials collected eastern manuscripts and sent them to Leiden University, which became the center of Eastern learning in Europe because of this. There are many things to tell about the Dutch in Turkey. You can find some information about the historical ties buried in pages such as Protestantism and Islam. Most information on this topic is still locked inside scientific papers unfortunately. NeoRetro (talk) 19:38, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Crime rates

NeoRetro per your edit comment, if the income is 30% less this wuold be a good statistic to add to the section. It is not so useful to refer to socio-economic factors if those socio-economic factors are not made clear. Do you have differentiated data between 1st and 2nd generation socio-economic factors? AadaamS (talk) 06:35, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good morning. You are right that those factors should be explained. I have some data, but it is 15 years old. I will search for more recent data. But first I need breakfast :)NeoRetro (talk) 07:22, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok I did a quick search and this is the first thing that popped up. In 2014 the average income of 1st generation Turkish-Dutch was 31.6% below native Dutch. Average income of 2nd generation Turkish Dutch was 28.6% below native Dutch. Income statistics by CBS, 2016. I will try to find other sources as well. NeoRetro (talk) 11:48, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wayback machine archive

I was unable to directly archive the 2007 trouw article by Rita van Veen. However, it can still be downloaded as a PDF here in the event of the oringal URL ever being removed. Sseevv (talk) 19:29, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't bother as this is not a useful source. The number is casually mentioned and could simply reflect ignorance on the part of the writer or be a confusion with the number of all non-western immigrants. What were you thinking when you decided to insert such blatant misinformation in the article? Did you not once consider that it would play into the hand of conspiracy theorists propounding the notorious Umvolkung hypothesis?--MWAK (talk) 08:21, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are quite a lot of sources showing 2 million, you just want to conceal it. So I direct the question back to you.Sseevv (talk) 13:07, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Non-existing facts cannot be concealed :o).--MWAK (talk) 13:51, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Two million Turks??

When such surprising claims are made that there would be two million people of Turkish ethnicity in The Netherlands, this had better be backed up by some serious technical demographic sources, not a collection of soccer articles and casual mentions. The number suspiciously equals the total of non-western allochthonous inhabitants, for which the Turks often function as a pars pro toto.--MWAK (talk) 07:35, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also Sabah is not a good source for this. Shadow4dark (talk) 08:21, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

MWAK, your excuse that these are just a "collection of soccer articles" is incorrect. Professor Nathalie Tocci's (2004) book is published by Ashgate Publishing - peer reviewed and therefore acceptable (Wikipedia has over 8,000 results with Ashgate publishing); Rauf Baker's article (2021) was published by Begin–Sadat Center for Strategic Studies which is affiliated with Bar-Ilan University (and this think-tank has almost 200 results on Wikipedia); Rita van Veen's (2007) article is published by the Dutch paper Trouw and, again, isn't a "soccer article" (the newspaper has been cited over 1,000 times on Wikiepedia); the publication by L1mburg Centraal is a Dutch regional broadcaster. Sseevv (talk) 11:16, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To add, I'm not sure why you request "technical demographic sources" when the Netherlands itself doesn't give citizens the opportunity to declare their ethnicity. Ethnic Turkish people don't just come from non-Western countries; there has been Turkish migration to the Netherlands from Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Germany, Iraq, North Macedonia, Romania, Syria and Turkey (to name a few, of which we have evidence for). So there clearly isn't a way to know the entire population without a census that actually allowed people to declare their identity. The next best thing is estimates by academics, think-tanks, articles, etc. Sseevv (talk) 13:12, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Shaow4dark, as you are a big contributor to Kurdish related articles, on Kurds in the Netherlands is JoshuaProject, The Irish Times, Het Parool etc. reliable, whilst here a Professor, a University-affiliated think-tank, and a range of Dutch, English and Turkish newspapers are unreliable? I need to understand the logic here. Also, Daily Sabah is cited a lot on Wikipedia (including on Kurds in Turkey).

Looking deeper into such inconsistencies, why isn't Dutch Brazilians tagged with unreliable source templates? (brasileirosnaholanda is not even a secure website); Dutch Chilean uses "Members.tripod.com" and "cstandt.com"... what are these? Sseevv (talk) 11:45, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The sources might in themselves be generally acceptable, but they are not reliable sources as to the number of two million as this is in all occasions just mentioned casually. They nowhere state "We estimate the number at two million" or give any substantiation whatsoever. Implying that they are estimations is therefore highly misleading. What we need are estimates by technical demographic articles. Mentioning the rest could only give a forbidden Undue Weight. As the total immigration from Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Germany, Iraq, North Macedonia, Romania and Syria does not add up to 1.5 million, it is in principle impossible to find that many Turks among it :o). And no, it could not be third etc generation either.--MWAK (talk) 13:48, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Stereotypes/Reputation of Dutch Turks

Is it possible to put a few things about the reputation of Dutch Turks in Dutch society? And also maybe how Dutch Turks are thought of when compared to other ethnic groups; like for example to Dutch Moroccans. Bubg eng guigyh7nyb (talk) 12:25, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]