Talk:Turhan Sultan

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Place of birth

Referencing this edit by IP User, since they raise a fair point about "Rus'" not being the equivalent of modern day Russia. However, Rus' is also not modern day Ukraine, that's why I changed the place of birth to Ruthenia to be historically more accurate. If someone wants to add the modern day location of her birth place like was done in case of her place of death, I'm ok with it. The English sources don't seem to mention it? But on the Ukrainian wiki I found the following information:

Place of birth:

Чернівецька область, місто Хотин, Украина.
(Khotyn, Chernivtsi Oblast, Ukraine)

Was Khotyn part of Ruthenia?

The Ukrainian wiki references the following source for the place of birth:

Gazeta.ua (30 жовтня 2012). Дві українські наложниці досягали вищої влади в Османській імперії. Gazeta.ua (рос.). Архів оригіналу за 2 травня 2021. Процитовано 2 травня 2021.
(Gazeta.ua (30 October 2012). Two Ukrainian concubines reached the highest power in the Ottoman Empire. Gazeta.ua (ros.[?]) Archived from the original from 2 May 2021. Accessed on 2 May 2021.) Nakonana (talk) 11:46, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note, however, that there appear to be different accounts of her place of birth. Quote from the Russian wiki:

"Турхан Хатидже-султан родилась приблизительно в 1627^[1]^[2] или 1628 году^[3] и, по одной из версий, была русского происхождения^[1]^[4]^[5]^[6]^[7]. По словам современного украинского историка Тараса Чухлиба она «родилась на Украине»^[8]. По версии французского купца Жан-Батиста Тавернье, посетившего Стамбул в 1668 году, Мехмед IV был «сыном Ибрагима и кавказской (черкесской) женщины»^[9]^[1]. Турецкий историк и писатель Решат Экрем Кочу [en] [=Reşat Ekrem Koçu] в романе «Кёсем Султан» изложил версию происхождения Турхан, согласно которой она была девушкой из украинской деревни, похищенной татарами^[9]^[1]. Турецкий историк Ахмет Рефик Алтынай [en] [=Ahmet Refik Altınay] описывал её как «русскую девушку»^[9]."

Google translation of the above:

"Turhan Hatice Sultan was born around 1627 or 1628 and, according to one version, was of Russian origin. According to modern Ukrainian historian Taras Chukhlib, she was "born in Ukraine". According to the French merchant Jean-Baptiste Tavernier, who visited Istanbul in 1668, Mehmed IV was "the son of Ibrahim and a Caucasian (Circassian) woman." The Turkish historian and writer Reşat Ekrem Koçu in the novel "Kösem Sultan" outlined the version of Turhan's origin, according to which she was a girl from a Ukrainian village, abducted by the Tatars. Turkish historian Ahmet Refik Altınay described her as a "Russian girl"."

Nakonana (talk) 11:57, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Russian Wiki has a tendency to call everything "Russian" for East Slavic lands. Can someone please double-check what exactly sources cited say about the place of birth? - Altenmann >talk 20:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For example, Karaca, Filiz (2012). "Turhan Sultan". Islam Ansiklopedisi sayss "Rus asıllı olup 1627’de doğduğu ve on iki yaşında" Clearly, Rus is not the same as Russia (Turkish: Rusya) even in Turkish regardless what Google Translate say. - Altenmann >talk 20:38, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! We also had disputes about the origin of Turhan in the Russian-language Wikipedia. Some Western and Turkish historians say that she is of Russian origin. Some claim Ukrainian roots, there is a source where it is written about Circassian ones. What further complicates the situation is that Ukrainians and Russians at that time used the same self-name Rusyns, so if the word Rus is used in Old Turkish sources, this does not necessarily indicate a person of Russian nationality. Sources indicate that Turhan's place of birth is Ruthenia. Ruthenia was an exonym of all East Slavic lands. Ruthenia was also often called the Ukrainian and Belarusian ethnic lands within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Anastasia magnificent (talk) 22:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In Turkish "Rus" just means "Russian" (person). Turkish Men, Ottoman Women: Popular Turkish Historians and the Writing of Ottoman Women's History for example says Russian origin but there are also Ukrainian historians who say she was Ukrainian. I think it makes more sense to explain the different views rather than just settling on one. Mellk (talk) 06:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we can write down versions of different origins with sources, as Nakonana wrote earlier? There is something about Russian and Ukrainian, as well as Circassian origin. Anastasia magnificent (talk) 08:24, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Mellk (talk) 08:25, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I described versions of origin with sources and removed Turhan's birth name. Because only one source, which is not based on anything, says about the name Nadya. Anastasia magnificent (talk) 08:41, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If anything, it’s better to protect the current version of the page from non-consensus edits. Anastasia magnificent (talk) 09:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no point in writing she was from Ruthenia if you gave three versions of her orginis its more logical to put that she was either from Russia or Ukraine Carsten,F.L.(1961) The new Cambridge Modern History.Vol.V The Ascendancy of France,1648-88 says she was from Russia so does Karaca,Filiz (2012). “Turhah Sultan”.vol 41 islam Araştırmaları Merkezi at p.423-425,so i recommend to let it stay as it is currently Cecac (talk) 11:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Anastasia magnificent (talk) 14:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It makes sense to say that she was Ruthenian because in the 17th century there was neither a country called "Russia" nor a country called "Ukraine", therefore saying she was Russian/Ukrainian would be historicaly incorrect. It's a little bit like saying that Angela Merkel was born in Prussia (iirc the place she was born in was on the territory of Prussia) - - - you can see how this is historicaly incorrect, right? If anything, we should write something along the lines of "born in Ruthenian (probably on the territory of modern day Russia or Ukraine)". Nakonana (talk) 00:47, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Usually the infobox mentions the state. If it is disputed then it is best to leave this out. Mellk (talk) 08:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b ^c ^d Sakaoğlu 2008, p. 245.
^ Alderson 1956, table XXXVII.
^ Adıvar, Hasan 2009, p. 227.
^ Baer 2011, p. 35.
^ Cooke, Göknar, Parker 2008, p. 214.
^ Carsten 1961, p. 505.
^ Karaca 2012.
^ Т. В. Чухліб. Хатідже Турхан валіде-султан Archived 2016-03-13 at the Wayback Machine // Енциклопедія історії України : у 10 т. / Редкол.: В. А. Смолій (голова) та ін. ; Інститут історії України НАН України. — К.: Наукова думка, 2013. — Т. 10 : Т — Я. — С. 364. — ISBN 978-966-00-1359-9. (укр.)
^ ^a ^b ^c Sakaoğlu 2007, p. 142.

Place of birth

@Naşakara: The exact place of birth is not known, this should be omitted from the infobox per MOS:INFOBOX. Also, we do not need a fantasy portrait that was found from Google, rather a portrait from the time. The engraving is from the 17th century. Mellk (talk) 18:59, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[FOOTNOTESakaoğlu2008245-1] Sakaoğlu 2008, p. 245.

[FOOTNOTEAlderson1956table_XXXVII-2] Alderson 1956, table XXXVII.

[FOOTNOTEAdıvar,_Hasan2009227-3] Adıvar, Hasan 2009, p. 227.

[FOOTNOTEBaer201135-4] Baer 2011, p. 35.

[FOOTNOTECooke,_Göknar,_Parker2008214-5] Cooke, Göknar, Parker 2008, p. 214.

[FOOTNOTECarsten1961505-6] Carsten 1961, p. 505.

[FOOTNOTEKaraca2012-7] Karaca 2012.

[8] Т. В. Чухліб. Хатідже Турхан валіде-султан Archived 2016-03-13 at the Wayback Machine // Енциклопедія історії України : у 10 т. / Редкол.: В. А. Смолій (голова) та ін. ; Інститут історії України НАН України. — К.: Наукова думка, 2013. — Т. 10 : Т — Я. — С. 364. — ISBN 978-966-00-1359-9. (укр.)

[FOOTNOTESakaoğlu2007142-9] Sakaoğlu 2007, p. 142.

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