Talk:Tsakhiagiin Elbegdorj/Archive 1

Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

Could use an infobox, but otherwise a B.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 17:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

This article is hardly NPOV. Furthermore, it seems that it has been translated (poorly, probably by means of BabelFish or the like) into French and German, replacing the previous versions on those pedias. /The Phoenix 09:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I would think there is a need for a "Controversies" box, as he is quite a controversial politician. These should not be direct attacks on him, but on his actions.--The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. (talk) 19:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

THIS ARTICLE IS VERIFIED FACTS WITH TONS OF INTERNATIONAL RESOURCES

This article looks correct. The Phoenix, if you don't know please read more in the internet.

• Whether the facts are true or false is irrelevant - the main point is that the sources of information must be cited in the article.--Aleron235 03:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

However, very poor international sources. It needs more balance as it is clearly biased. Nevertheless, more international sources are needed.--The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. (talk) 18:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The POV problem has been reduced, but not elimintated:

• If you want to claim that MPRP politicians are corrupt, then you need to prove that, and news reporting doesn't count as proof in this context. You either need someone to publically admit his corruption, or a court decision. (Writing "the DP thinks they are corrupt" would be ok).
• The word frantic is POV.
• You write that "MPRP illegally overthrew" his governement. Can you show which clauses of the constitution were violated? Because if there is no violation of the constitution, then the governement change was legal (coalition contracts are not legally binding).
• "More than half of the population who voted for DP" can't be correct, because the DP doesn't hold more than half of the seats in parliament (non-MPRP doesn't automatically mean DP).

And that's just some of the problems with one single paragraph. There's still a lot of work to be done here.

Btw: Those "tons of international resources" are urtimately based on just two or three agency reports. There's no point in listing them all. Better try to trace down the original reports (AP/Reuters/etc.) and just list those. --Latebird 10:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

POV Corrected.

This article is neutral. Why do you keep posting POV sign? --Okonji 03:27, 16 February 2006 (UCT)

You seem to have quite a different idea of "neutral" than the rest of the world. My points above are just a few examples of the existing POV, and you didn't even take notice of them. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of him personally, but the current text is pure propaganda, and not fit for an encyclopedia. --Latebird 07:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The same stuff has now appeared in the article about Miyeegombo Enkhbold. --Latebird 00:39, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Because Miyeegombo Enkhbold overthrew Elbegdorj's government, the fact belongs to both people. -- Lemonhead 18:51, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

This article is still not NPOV. I did a major edit to this article, which includes grammar corrections. Some may think that I am against Elbegdorj because I removed some of the harsh criticisms of the communist government and some of the most praising language for Elbegdorj. This is not true; he seems like a great person and leader from what I have read, but some of the language off this article is not generally appropriate for articles in Wikipedia. Academic Challenger 22:44, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I just did an overhaul on the grammar, as it was still quite poor.--The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. (talk) 18:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

"In 2002 he graduated from Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government with a Master of Public Administration (MPA)."

There is no proof whatsoever that he received his Master's degree. He claimed various times he did, but never produced his diploma. He did attend a course at Harvard though.

[edit] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.49.130.99 (talk) 17:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

trivia

Would it be OK to delete the trivia section? Most of it seems irrelevant or nonsensical.

Elbegdorj half jokingly said "Genghis Khan wasn't really a bad guy", "he just had bad press" in an interview with Boston Globe. is a pretty standard sentence for any Mongolian (or, almost any)

Mongolians call Elbegdorj the Golden Falcon of Democracy, alluding to a bird that comes with spring sunshine after a long, harsh winter. I don't know any Mongolians who call him that. I have met Mongolians who call him a man who loves to hear himself talking (MPRP supporters, incidentically), but I would never add such stuff to a trivia section

For his efforts and contribution in the creation and strengthening of the democratic system in Mongolia, Elbegdorj was awarded the medal "Freedom." This might actually be worth mentioning, if we knew when and by whom?

In reference to his work, Elbegdorj has been referred to as "Mongolia's Thomas Jefferson". see comment on second entry.

I have nothing against Elbegdorj, but these trivia just don't seem to really belong into an encyclopedia. Yaan 19:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The trivia are one of the last bits of POV-ish stuff that I didn't remove when cleaning up the article. As fat as I am concerned, feel free to dispose of them. --Latebird 21:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Accident

Please remember that we are trying to write an encyclopedia here, and not a news publication. Overly detailed information or sensationalist speculations as they might be found in the tabloid press or aired on TV are not appropriate here. Specifically:

• The exact time of the accident is not relevant.
• The exact emergency organisation he called is not relevant.
• Specific details about his progress are not relevant (saying that he was in a coma and is getting better is entirely enough).
• If we inform about speculations (MPRP involvement), then we must say whether those have been confirmed or not (not doing so is defamation).
• Unspecific links to the home page of a Mongolian language news site (which most of the time doesn't mention Elbegdorj) are not relevant.

I have reset the article again to an encyclopedic version. Please do not change it again without discussing your changes here first.

It is important to note that this Mongolia.web article already cites some unfounded speculations that were in this article for a short time. Incidents like this cause massive harm to the reputation of Wikipedia. With all respect and best wishes to Elbegdorj, plase respect the policies and guidelines of this project, and don't abuse it for your personal and political interests. The relevant policies and guidelines here are (among others): WP:NOT, WP:VERIFY, WP:LINKS, and WP:BLP. --Latebird 10:18, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the accident is now far enough in the past to move it from the intro section further down. If anyone thinks otherwise, just let me know. Yaan (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

S.Bayar's blaming

July 1 riot and who burnt MPRP building is a controversial subject in Mongolia and MPRP vs one group (witnesses, victims, and most people of Mongolia, civil movements, major opposition Democratic Party) have opposing opinions. Even the President of Mongolia and Chairman of General Elections Committee admitted that the elections of June 29th, 2008 was not organized in a fair way many times through many media outlet. The Court of Mongolia which judges who is right and who is wrong hasn't decided who is guilty of killing 6 people or burning the MPRP building down yet. I think IT IS POV to include only Prime Minister S.Bayar's one word and not to show the other controversy in wikipedia, if you want to include S.Bayar's one sentence here. Because Prime Minister S.Bayar has been mostly blamed for the cause and aftermath of July 1 all over live broadcasting televised Mongolia. MPRP has been blamed for stealing the elections and getting the power illegally. I don't think wikipedia should include only S.Bayar's ideas. It is free encyclopedia isn't it?Compbok 07:03, 11 Feb 2009

It is free, but it doesn't give you the right to bend the truth. These ramblings are quite inane.--The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. (talk) 19:01, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Yours is rambling. Compbok 03:32, 02 June 2009

IPA

The International Phonetic Alphabet does not use capital letters. Could someone fix the pronunciation? --212.36.9.145 (talk) 14:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

back in the Mongolian People's Republic

Why is it that this article reads as if it was written during socialism? As if the topic was Kim Il Sung and the writer a North Korean?

I am pretty sure that the reason Elbegdorj failed twice in office could be stated more honestly. And that his role in the riots last year was far from uncontroversial. Yaan (talk) 17:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems you have some personal interests to defame Elbegdorj. That's why it is only read by you like that. Compbok (talk) 03:34, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

religion

Religion is important in Mongolia, even to discuss exact religious affiliation from Gengis Khan Temujin is a hot topic; what is religious identity from Elbergdorj?. Eliecer Guillen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.249.82.111 (talk) 20:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I was told he is a Buddhist. Gantuya eng (talk) 00:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I read he supported to establish Eagle - Christian TV in Mongolia. Comp (talk) 00:36, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Libertarian?

Can we have some kind of independent (non-libertarian) source for Elbegdorj being "widely known as a libertarian politician"? Given that both the 2004 and 2008 campaigns of his party were quite focused on certain welfare programs (10.000 MNT per child per month in 2004, 1 million MNT [per year?] for everybody in 2008), the statement sounds a bit strange. I guess some Mongolian news reports should do. Yaan (talk) 12:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

No. of children

His biography at the AN site says he has five children, not just four sons. Should I correct it? Yaan (talk) 12:54, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

The 5th child is a girl they adopted. Also their family sponsor a group 0f 20 children in the orphanage. Gantuya eng (talk) 14:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, I will now change this to five children. Do you happen to have a source for one girl being adopted? Yaan (talk) 14:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

2004 parliamentary election

Did he run for election in 2004, and if yes, against whom did he lose?

I understand he wanted to run for a by-election in Bayangol in 2005 (and retracted because the MPRP threatened to break up the coalition), but why did he not make it into parliament in 2004? Yaan (talk) 13:15, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

He didn't run in 2004 according to Mongolian media. Instead, he supported all DP candidates and worked in all provinces with them according to Mongolian media. It looks like you personally tries to smear Elbegdorj as much as possible, isn't it? Compbok (talk) 04:42, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Mr Elbegdorj's political party?

Mongolia says: "Mongolia is a parliamentary republic."
I don't know anything about politics in Mongolia or about Mr Elbegdorj, but the party affiliation of a high elected official is normally thought to be one of the most important facts about him/her.
I don't see Mr Elbegdorj's party affiliation mentioned in the lead or in the infobox. I've taken a quick look at our articles on some other elected high officials in other countries, and they all do mention the party affiliation in the lead. The lead here does mention a party with which Mr Elbegdorj was not affiliated, and something about his general political stance, but not his current party.
The section "Political affiliation" seems to show Mr Elbegdorj as affilated with several different parties over the years, or possibly one or more of these parties changed their names, I don't know. The last entry in this section is "Leader of the Mongolian Democratic Party from Apr 2006 to September 2008." So... since Sep 2008? Recently? Now?
- Could we please add his current (or at the time of the election) political party affiliation to the lead (whether or not this info does appear somewhere else in the article) or if I am in fact completely wrong in asking for this could somebody please explain my error?
Thanks. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 22:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the party name is just Democratic Party without the adjective Mongolian since around 2000-2001 (?) as it merged with the Mongolian Social-Democratic Party. Mongolian Democratic Party is the initial name as it was established in 1990. It merged with the Mongolian National Progress Party in around1994-1995 and renamed as Mongolian National Democratic Party. It's more correct to drop the adjective Mongolian from the name of this party since 2000. Gantuya eng (talk) 23:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I added a mention of his party (Democratic Party (Mongolia), AFAIK) to the lead. PLEASE CHECK THIS as I don't know anything about this subject and am just going by Mongolian presidential election, 2009. Thanks. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 00:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

never have been a member of the Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party

"he will be Mongolia's first president to never have been a member of the Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party" - this statement is in the article. But was it possible in 1982 to be sent to the Soviet military political school for the high education without memebership in the ruling party?Bogomolov.PL (talk) 07:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

No doubt he was a Revsomol member in 1982. It was said that if you aren't a Revsomol member you cannot enter any tertiary educational establishment. Also it was said that exclusion from Revsomol automatically led to exclusion from the university or institute.

But being a Revsomol member is yet far from been a member of MPRP.

On the other hand he could enter MPRP in 1982 as he was 18 years old already. However, it is very unlikely because the prerequisits for joining MPRP were too tough for a 18 year old person.

It might be interesting to find out if he tried to enter MPRP after graduation (between 1988 and December 1989). Gantuya eng (talk) 12:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

My experience tells me an officer with the military political education has to be a party member, isn't it? He left Mongolia in 1983 when was 20 years old, he studied 5 years, usually after 1 or 2 years a student in a military political insitute gets a proposal to join ruling party and was it possible to reject this proposal in 1983 or 1984? It was strongely nessesary for the future career to be a party member. Did he claimed he was never a party member? If so - we need a link to his declaration. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Or maybe we just need to fine-tune the wording. I edited to a much stronger claim because the previous claim was only that he was the first president to not be a member of the MPRP. This is obvioulsy not true because Mongolian presidents have to suspend (revoke?) their party membership while in office. Besides, I would then like to see a source for Ochirbat remaining in the MPRP after he had been nominated by the opposition parties in 1993. Yaan (talk) 10:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring

2008 riots again

This page is not about the riots, it is about Mr. Elbegdorj. What is important here is that he lost the elections, that his party afterwards claimed the election was not fair (although international observers said it generally was) and that he has been accused by his political opponents to have contributed to the escalation of protests. The other relevant thing is that he resigned from his party post in the aftermath and was the only one in his party's parliamentary group to oppose the DP entering a coalition with the MPRP. All of this is probably relevant for the readers of this article.

IMHO there is no consent that the election was faked, and this is not the page to discuss all possible POVs about who may have faked what. AFAIK the only one convicted so far is from the AN.

Yaan (talk) 10:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

If you think 2008 riot is not appropriate here, why did you remove not this, instead most part of Elbegdorj's achievements of during his Prime Minister's terms with all sources. It looks like you only want to smear Elbegdorj rather than improving wikipedia articles. Plus your thought about Elbegdorj as North Korean leadership is not right in all senses. That simplification of wrong identification can't be in wikipedia. You can't put democratic leader Elbegdorj into a dictator's shoes just by your POV.

Compbok (talk) 10:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I think those 2008 events are important, after all they cost him the post as party chairman.

I don't think I removed any achievements that were properly sourced. I removed some stuff that was not properly sourced, and some stuff that was not really his achievement (see below).

I also did not intent to write his governing style is that of a north korean. But what you wrote certainly makes him look as if he was some dictator, or maybe even a god: He decided to send troops to Iraq, he decided to make computers cheaper, he decided to make people pay more taxes. Certainly even during his time as prime minister, Mongolia still had a cabinet and a parliament? Yaan (talk) 13:30, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Why do you insist on omitting the fact that international observers have called the elections mostly free and fair, that Elbegdorj resigned in the aftermath of the riots and that the DP entered a coalition government with the MPRP? Yaan (talk) 13:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It is only the opinion of international observers, who failed to monitor the vote counting process, where the votes are rigged. You don't know the situation in Mongolia. --GenuineMongol (talk) 03:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

children's money

according to my sources, children's money was only decided on in june 2006, several months after elbegdorj had been forced to resign. Is this incorrect? Yaan (talk) 12:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not correct. As a Prime Minister Elbegdorj decided to give children's money. It was talked on Mongolian TV channels a lot and MPRP MPs admitted that. If you don't know the fact, first ask rather than simply removing parts of article someone added with lots of efforts researching. Compbok (talk) 12:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

this source states the law on children benefit was adopted on June 2nd, 2006 (below "Kindergeld endgültig beschlossen"). And that the money was to be paid from July 1st, 2006. Both of this is after Elbegdorj had to resign. I know the DP had promised this in the 2004 campaign (but 10.000 MNT, not 3.000), and I am sure Elbegdorj talks a lot on Mongolian TV, but it really seems Elbegdorj did not manage to get this children benefit through parliament during his term in office. Yaan (talk) 13:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Pretty much every governement since 1992 has promised to give people money for various reasons (childbirth, marriage, etc.) or for no reason at all, in order to attract their votes. Some have managed to actually get a decision through parliament, others didn't. But the topic is certainly not specifically related to any individual politician, and has no relevance to this article. --Latebird (talk) 22:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It is called cash transfer Gantuya eng (talk) 03:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I am a bit divided over whether it is relevant or not. It was a quite important topic in the 2004 campaign IIRC, and this article is not a stub anymore. The reason I excluded it has more to do with the children benefit only being approved after Elbegdorj had been forced to resign. Yaan (talk) 10:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Wasn't it Gundalai's idea to give out cash transfers to children? Was MPRP's counter-promise in that election to give out money to every newly marrying couple and to every newborn baby? Then Democratic Party MPs were able to continue advocating for children's money in the Parliament regardless whose PM was in the office. The same was done by the MPRP MPs to keep their party's promise. Gantuya eng (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know whose idea it was. Compbok made it appear as if everything that went right in Mongolia since 1990 was somehow connected to Elbegdorj. The MPRP eventually managed to create a law that would give every newlywed couple 500.000 MNT (apparently also on June 2nd, 2006, per link above), but I don't remember if that was part of their 2004 election campaign. I guess it would not be so difficult to find a source, but I don't see how it would be relevant to this article anyway. Especially if children benefit is not mentioned in the first place. Yaan (talk) 14:45, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

"decided to send troops to iraq"

according to my sources, Mongolia's decision to send troops to iraq was in 2003. Again, is this incorrect? Yaan (talk) 12:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

OK. Here I checked your sources. It is in 2003. But I read that Elbegdorj played a certain role in sending troops to Iraq. Compbok (talk) 12:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

"I read" - where? This was Enkhbayars decision, don't you think it is appropriate to let the readers know this? Yaan (talk) 13:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Or to at least not give the impression it was that of someone else? Yaan (talk) 13:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

In this article it says "Elbegdorj agreed to send" but not it says it was Elbegdorj's idea. Why don't you add Enkhbayar's initiation at article on Enkhbayar. Compbok (talk) 14:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Elbegdorj probably also agrees that 2+2=4. He probably also agrees to not invade China tomorrow. I am sure he agrees that Taiwan and Tibet are parts of China. Does it mean any of this should be included in this article. Yaan (talk) 14:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

If Elbegdorj wasn't directly involved in the decision, then the topic is not relevant for this article. --Latebird (talk) 22:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion to User Yaan

Why can't we discuss first in this discussion page to change something in this article, before simply removing others' work that took some time to resource and write it. Compbok (talk) 12:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I have discussed this before, see above. Yaan (talk) 13:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

besides, most of this is explained in the edit summaries. I really don't feel like writing a whole paragraph for every unsourced statement you have added. Yaan (talk) 13:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I added only sourced materials those I read and indicated.Compbok (talk) 13:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, then can I simply remove evreything that is not properly sourced per wp:rs? Yaan (talk) 13:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Should I source every single word with ref? Whole paragraph or chunk are mostly from one source which is indicated as source in the end. Your approach looks like as a part of Enkhbayar's PR group which tried badly to smear Elbegdorj by tons of slanders during elections campaign. Compbok (talk) 14:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

No, you don't need to put a ref behind every word. Again, the question was "can I simply remove evreything that is not properly sourced per wp:rs?". Yaan (talk) 14:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Can you indicate first which part? I'll put the sources. Compbok (talk) 14:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll remove it, you add it in when you have sources. OK. Yaan (talk) 14:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think this is going to make the article any better, it is also against WP:POINT. I think I have highlighted enough factual errors above to make clear that your version is not a very good one. Besides, I don't think the current version is missing out on any important and well-sourced facts. I admit the bit about July 1st could be expanded a bit by interested editors, but I think the bit about Elbegdorj being criticized by the MPRP and stepping down afterwards is, for this article, more important than a detailed description on how the riots developed or how they were suppressed. Yaan (talk) 14:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Compbok, please note that valid sources must be independent of the subject. In our example, this is clearly not the case for the Democratic Party web site, where you took a lot of your material. Most of what you find there will essentially be statements by ELbegdorj himself. Any information that is only supported by such a non-independent source may be removed at sight and without further discussion. --Latebird (talk) 21:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I checked calling Democratic Party of Mongolia. The biography over there is not written by Elbegdorj. Democcrratic party in Mongolia is a big party, also I don't think big leaders write their own story.

Compbok (talk) 06:30 02 June 2009 (UTC)

First, calling there yourself is Original research and the information you get that way is unacceptable to Wikipedia. Second, even if he didn't type it himself, the information on the DP web site is still not independent of him. Other than for the naked facts (date of birth, school graduation, etc.) we need independent and verifiable confirmation for every information you collect this way. --Latebird (talk) 08:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Lviv Military Political School

This revert made by User:Therequiembellishere leads to misunderstanding. Elbegdorj didn't got an education in the Lviv Politechnical Institute. He was Soviet Military Political School student which had no relation to the civilian Politechnical Institute. But in 1993 (in the postsoviet independent Ukraine) this military political institution was reformed and became a part of the Lviv Politechnic. Elbegdorj was in Mongolia this time - a Khural member.

As it is shown in the infobox Elbegdorj graduated from J.F.Kennedy School of Government. This institution is a Harvard University part, but in the infobox only concrete institution name is mentioned, the rest we can know from the wikilink. The same with the Military Political School - my edit provides the intitution name, but link points to the actual Lviv Politechnic (as en:wiki has no article about Military Political School, it is present in ru:wiki only ru:Львовский военный институт).Bogomolov.PL (talk) 07:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I added a source for the name of the school, though a slightly different one. It seems to be against wp:sps, though, so I am not so sure it is acceptable here. His site is linked to from Christopher Kaplonski's website, he wrote the Mongolian package for LaTeX, his site is here even referred to as the FU Berlin's page. So I guess he can be called a sorts' of established expert, though maybe better to use him only for uncontroversial claims.

Yaan (talk) 11:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

here is another source (Pang Guek Cheng, Mongolia, 1999, p. 36). No idea if it is better than Oliver Corff, though. Yaan (talk) 11:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

besides, it is kind of mentioned on the DP website. My guess is TsUTD Surguul is for something like Tsergiin Uls Töriin Deed Surguul, not for something like Politehnik Surguul (grammar and spelling corrections welcome). Yaan (talk) 12:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Цэргийн Улс Төрийн Дээд Сургууль, Политехникийн Дээд Сургууль (Институт). Gantuya eng (talk) 12:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Other question, what would be the best translation for this "Дээд Сургууль"? I assume it is some kind of academic institution (right?), but I am not terribly familiar with Soviet education and English terms for such schools. Also, I am not so sure how reliable the info on him studying Marxism-Leninism really is. It might just have been part of any student's schedule, not a subject he specialized in. Maybe it's safer to leave ML out unless better sources can be found? Yaan (talk) 14:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

This Lviv Military Political School was educating communist propaganda officers, Elbegdorj was a military jornalism student. In fact political propaganda jornalism was only high education course completed as in US was 1 year training. As political propaganda specialist he was acting in his political life (it is no criticizm from my side - he created oppositional media in Mongolia). His political propaganda skill was one of the motives in the electoral victory, I guess.

About the name. Original name "училище" was traditional term (from tsarist times) for the military education institutions preparing leuthenants (Militärschule). For senior officers were academies. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 18:21, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Bogomov, please note that Lviv Military Political Institute is a 5 year program and it is National University of Ukraine now. You can't smear all the people those graduated from that university. That institute is one of top institute for social sciences. Right now, the tuition of the institute is very high. Please check its website. http://lp.edu.ua/ I understand that some Russians can be ignorant and arrogant over Ukrainians and Ukrainian national institute. But please keep wikipedia as wikipedia not to show your ignorance and arrogance over other nations.

Compbok (talk) 4:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Dear Compbok! When Elbegdorj was a cadet of the Lviv Military Political School this Soviet military institution was not any National University of Ukraine. The present status of this institution has no relation to the Soviet times Elbegdorj biography, isn't it? Why you are using so unusual for the Wikipedia term "smear"? I am acting in a good intention - to provide an information about the real education of Mongolian political leader. Why you, collegue Compbok, are calling this encyclopedic information as "smear"? And what relation to this question have Russian-Ukrainian relations? Wikipedia rules are prohibitring wikipedian person discussing. But please keep wikipedia as wikipedia not to show your ignorance and arrogance over other nations. - you, collegue Compbok, wrote. You, dear Compbok, want to hide the real information about mr.Elbegdorj education in the USSR? He was not a student of the civilian Politechnic but a military cadet of the political propaganda school. Yes, in the Lviv Military Political School were nonpropaganda specialities - my collegue defended thesis in photogrammetry (not "social scienties" as you mentioned) in this institution. But our hero - mr.Elbegdorj - was a military jornalism cadet, isn't it? Why Wikipedia readers can not know about this? I never discussed the quality of the Lviv Military Political School - but if you, dear Compbok, want to hear my opinion - it was a very good high school, and it is now a good one also, I hope. I never mentioned mr.Elbegdorj educational level as poor or unproper. His political and mass media activity demonstrates his high educational level, I see. Let's try, dear Compbok, together make wikipedia better. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:05, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

If Elbegdorj studied there in 1983-1988, then it is proper to use the name of that institution as it was during that time. If you feel more clarification would help the reader, you can add in brackets the latter changes in the name or status of the institution. It's an attitude of ignorance to use nowadays names of things when the context is about the past. Gantuya eng (talk) 07:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Bogomolov, I saw on TV that Elbegdorj is proud of being a military journalist and graduated from the school. But it is not a high school though, that's the problem. I checked with some graduates of the school, they told me that the school was named as higher school equal to higher education i.e. institute. Also, when we use the school name, in the alma mater section, it should go by present name, otherwise, people don't understand they are same school alumni. Also if we use early terms in bracket I suggest to use the present name of school for clarification purposes. Compbok (talk) 06:35 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Find independent and verifiable published sources ("I saw it on TV" is Original research), and we'll change the school to the appropriate name. --Latebird (talk) 09:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Erdenet Mining Corp. chairman

According to this source (Nizam U. Ahmed, Philip Norton, Parliaments in Asia, 1999, p. 154), the controversy about replacing Sh. Otgonbileg actually began in February 1998, still under Enhsaihan. According to this source (Far East and Australasia 2003, p. 836), Otgonbileg was not fired, but his contract was not extended. The second source makes it appear as if Elbegdorj's actions mainly consisted of pissing the Russians off. Yaan (talk) 15:08, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Then why Enkhsaikhan didn't remove Otgonbileg you think? Compbok (talk) 04:07, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what either of us personally thinks (see WP:OR). In Wikipedia we can only use what we find in independent, reliable, and verifiable published sources. --Latebird (talk) 09:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

"2008 riot case for example was proven by all level courts was with full of irregularities"

Please give a source that is independent from Elbegdorj. I am aware that at least one person was convicted for voterigging in connection to the 2008 elections, but he was a DP candidate so I don't see how his voterigging would have helped the MPRP. Yaan (talk) 13:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you don't need to surprise, it is what the communists do. All the judges are appointed by Nambaryn Enkhbayar. They will not convict MPRP members, but DP members even on a false ground. The case is very much controversial. --GenuineMongol (talk) 03:42, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The voterigger Yaan referred was released from prison and she was claimed as innocent by court decision. But all three level courts made court orders and decisions that proved that GEC chairman Battulga (MPRP) made decisions violating elections law on 2008 elections day that caused the nationwide elections irregularities. It took one whole year for all level courts to study and decide this. Court is not Elbegdorj. Therefore, what kind of source Yaan are you looking for other than this? Compbok (talk) 02 June 2009 (UTC)

The kind of source I am looking for is an actual court decision. Something that looks like this. In case Mongolian courts are not able to publish their decisions, independent press reports would be OK, too. But just an interview from a party website is, well, just not acceptable. Yaan (talk) 13:38, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Section by section

Alright, let's discuss this section by section

Lead

constitution

"In addition, Elbegdorj is the co-author and co-adopter of Mongolia’s new Constitution that guaranteed democracy, human rights, and freedom."

Unsourced. He was in the Small Khural from 1990-1992, but this institution had 50 members. wording it like this makes it seem as if he wrote it with two or three others. If the wording is to remain as it is now, there needs to be a source for Elbegdorj's special role. Yaan (talk) 15:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Please check archive. I checked in the Parliamentary library. All Constitutional materials were exhibited in last summer. Elbegdorj is one of the co-author and co-adopted of Mongolia's constitution.Compbok (talk) 03:11, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't doubt he was somewhat involved. Yes, he was one of the 400+ people who adopted the constitution. Being one out of 400 is not particularly noteworthy IMHO. "Please check archive" is not what is meant by WP:VERIFY I think. In fact, it sounds pretty much like OR. Yaan (talk) 12:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

independent newspaper

"Elbegdorj is the founder of the first independent newspaper"

I think there were independent newspapers before Elbegdorj was even born. Maybe even in Mongolia (would Niislel Khurenii sonin bichig qualify?) Besides, it is not clear what is meant by the term "independent". "Ardchilal" sounds a bit like the name of a party newspaper, which where I come from would not be called "independent". Yaan (talk) 15:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Which newspaper in Mongolia? None. Please show the reference if you think Mongolia had independent newspaper before Elbegdorj. All your claims just to defame Mongolia's new president, isn't it?

Compbok (talk) 03:20, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think my motivations for editing on Wikipedia are any of your business. And as mentioned before, I don't care about Mr. Elbegdorj at all. Just in case you didn't understand Wikipedia, the one who introduces a claim is the one who has to provide sources. Yaan (talk) 13:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

law on television and radio

", co-initiator and co-drafter on Law on Public Television and Radios."

Correct me if I am wrong, but this achievement does not sound important enough for the lead. As prime minister he was probably involved in the creation of a lot of laws, I don't see how this one is more important than others. Also I think the law is really just on radio, not on radios? Yaan (talk) 15:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It is important for communist Mongolia to change. Compbok (talk) 03:21, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

And what does that have to do with Wikipedia? One way to read your statement is that you're trying to use Wikipedia for political propaganda. You don't need to answer this to us, but you should think very carefully for yourself whether your motivation to edit here is really compatible with the NPOV principle of Wikipedia. --Latebird (talk) 21:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

privatization

"Furthermore, Elbegdorj led privatization of animals from collectivization back to their herders."

Again, this is unsourced, and it is unclear what exactly is meant. Did he issue decrees, was he the first to privatize some animals, or what? Yaan (talk) 15:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It looks like you have no knowledge about history of Mongolia. Everybody in Mongolia knows Elbegdorj led the privatization and it has been shown on all mass media in Mongolia. If you don't know how can you dare to edit this article, I surprise. Compbok (talk) 06:12, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

And once more, we get a personal attack instead of factual arguments and reliable sources. In case you really still don't understand: this does not strengthen your position at all. --Latebird (talk) 21:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I'll readily admit that I do not know what exactly is meant by "led privatization from collectivization". Just like you apparently did not know who exactly adopted the law on children's benefit, or sent troops to participate in the occupation of some other people's country. But that does not change the fact that the statement above is unsourced. Yaan (talk) 12:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Childhood and education

childhood

"Born in Zereg soum (village), Khovd Province of Mongolia on March 30, 1963, Elbegdorj was the eighth and youngest son of Knoninkhuu Borjoo and Tsakhia Mongol - a war veteran and a herder. Elbegdorj’s father Tsakhia fought in Khalkh river war to protect Mongolia from Japanese attacks at the eastern border of Mongolia between 1936 and 1939 until Mongolia and former Soviet Union won the war. Elbegdorj’s mother Khoninkhuu, whose two brothers died protecting Mongolia in the same war, had worked as a herder of communion and was retired. Elbegdorj completed public primary and secondary schools of Zereg soum. Elbegdorj helped his parents to herd horses, cattle, sheep and goats and horse raced with other children until eight years of age full time, from eight to sixteen years of age during school vacations. When he was 16, his family moved to Erdenet and he finished Erdenet City’s public high school #1 with diploma noted as Summa Cum Laude in 1981."

The second source only says when and where he was born, and when he finished which school. All this animal herding is what children in the Mongolian countryside normally do, I fail to see how any of this is relevant to this article. Also, I don't really understand why we need to write a biography of his father, mother, or uncles here. Yaan (talk) 14:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I pasted below the childhood part of Abraham Lincoln. What can you say about it?--GenuineMongol (talk) 13:28, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

"Abraham Lincoln was born on February 12, 1809, to Thomas Lincoln and Nancy Hanks, two uneducated farmers, in a one-room log cabin on the 348-acre (1.4 km2) Sinking Spring Farm, in southeast Hardin County, Kentucky (now part of LaRue County), making him the first president born west of the Appalachians. Lincoln's ancestor Samuel Lincoln[4] had arrived in Hingham, Massachusetts from England in the 17th century, but his descendants had gradually moved west, from Pennsylvania to Virginia and then westward to the frontier.[5]

For some time, Thomas Lincoln, Abraham's father, had been a respected citizen of the Kentucky backcountry. He had purchased the Sinking Spring Farm in December 1808 for $200 cash ($2.73 thousand today)[6] and assumption of a debt. The family belonged to a Hardshell Baptist church, although Abraham himself never joined their church, or any other church for that matter.

In 1816 the Lincoln family became impoverished, losing their land through court action, and was forced to make a new start in Perry County, Indiana.[7] Lincoln later noted that this move was "partly on account of slavery," and partly because of difficulties with land deeds in Kentucky.[8]

When Lincoln was nine, his mother, then 34 years old, died of milk sickness. Soon afterwards, his father remarried to Sarah Bush Johnston. Lincoln and his stepmother were close; he called her "Mother" for the rest of his life, but he was increasingly distant from his father.[9]

In 1830, after more economic and land-title difficulties in Indiana, the family settled on public land[10] in Macon County, Illinois. The following winter was desolate and especially brutal, and the family considered moving back to Indiana. The following year, when his father relocated the family to a new homestead in Coles County, Illinois, 22-year-old Lincoln struck out on his own, canoeing down the Sangamon River to the village of New Salem in Sangamon County.[11] Later that year, hired by New Salem businessman Denton Offutt and accompanied by friends, he took goods from New Salem to New Orleans via flatboat on the Sangamon, Illinois and Mississippi rivers.

Lincoln's formal education consisted of about 18 months of schooling, but he was largely self-educated and an avid reader. He was also a talented local wrestler and skilled with an axe.[12] Lincoln avoided hunting and fishing because he did not like killing animals, even for food.[13] At 6 foot 4 inches (1.93 m), he was unusually tall, as well as strong.

Lincoln's father, Thomas Lincoln, was uneducated and illiterate; however, he was extremely talented in the art of storytelling and entertaining friends. Thomas would regularly host friendly gatherings at his house, which would usually consist of Thomas telling stories all night causing a hilarious uproar from his audience. Stealthily, young Abraham would stay up and listen to his father telling stories, trying to memorize them himself. Occasionally, when Abraham could not understand a certain story or part of one, he would repeat it over and over again in his mind until he finally understood. He then would spend countless hours coming up with a way to put the stories into terms his friends could easily understand. The next day, Abraham would repeat these stories to his friends, mimicking his father. This early practice helped prepare Abraham for the many important speeches he would have to give late in his life." —Preceding unsigned comment added by GenuineMongol (talk • contribs) 13:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

If 200 years from now we find that Elbegdorj and his upbringing were as relevant to the history of the whole world as Lincoln was, then we can also consider presenting the trivial aspects of his parent's lives in Wikipedia. For now, they are non-notable and deserve some privacy. It's absolutely good enough to know that Elbegdorj grew up in a herder's family in Zereg, Khovd, without giving any names or other details. --Latebird (talk) 13:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

That's double standard. Please have a look at the Ukrainian President's biography.GenuineMongol (talk) 02:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

"Viktor Andriyovych Yushchenko was born on February 23, 1954 in Khoruzhivka, Sumy Oblast, Ukrainian SSR, USSR, into a family of teachers. His father, Andriy Andriyovych Yushchenko (1919-1992), fought in the Second World War, was captured by German forces and imprisoned as a POW in a series of concentration camps in Poland and Germany, including Auschwitz-Birkenau. He survived the ordeal, and after returning home, taught English at a local school. Viktor's mother, Varvara Tymofiyovna Yushchenko (1918-2005), taught physics and mathematics at the same school.

Viktor Yushchenko graduated from the Ternopil Finance and Economics Institute in 1975 and began work as an accountant, as a deputy to the chief accountant in a kolkhoz. Then from 1975 to 1976 he served as a conscript in the KGB Border Guard on the Soviet–Turkish border." GenuineMongol (talk) 02:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I see your point about Elbegdorj's father. Unfortunately the sentence about his mother's occupation is a bit too unclear to reliably interpret what Compbok meant (I guess he wanted to say she worked in a negdel, but I am not really sure). Yaan (talk) 13:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

"Other stuff exists" is generally rejected as an argument on Wikipedia. We have a huge number of bad articles, and there's no reason to take them as examples. --Latebird (talk) 22:05, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I think a good biography article should contain a few words on a person's background. The only problem here is where to draw the line. That his parents were herders is probably quite important, whether they were part of a negdel or worked in a SAA might be less relevant (unless someone explains why it is important). About the war veteran stuff I am a bit undecided, but currently this seems to be a minor issue. Yaan (talk) 12:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

plans for studying

"During socialist time, all enrollment rights to universities were allocated from the Central Planning Committee of Mongolia for each profession. Elbegdorj wanted to study journalism, but no enrollment share for journalism came to Erdenet City in that year. Determined to become a journalist, Elbegdorj waited until next year's enrollment."

unsourced. Yaan (talk) 14:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

That is in newspaper Сайн байна уу reference is included in the article. Compbok (talk) 03:09, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Then just cite the newspaper. Yaan (talk) 13:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

motivation for entering Erdenet

"While waiting, to help his elderly parents Elbegdorj began to work at Erdenet Copper-Molibdenium Industry as temp and then became a repairer and soon afterwards promoted to a machinist position."

Elbegdorj's motivation for working at Erdenet is not mentioned in the DP short biography. Yaan (talk) 14:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

That is mentioned in newspaper Сайн байна уу which is referenced in this article. Compbok (talk) 03:07, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Same as above: Provide a verifiable citation, and everything is fine. --Latebird (talk) 22:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

reason for being sent to study abroad

"In 1982 he was drafted to mandatory military service until 1983. During his military service he was promoted from a private to a sergeant. He submitted several poems to army newspaper Ulaan Od (Red Star). Elbegdorj's poems published in the newspaper were seen by high ranking officials at the Ministry of Defense and they called Elbegdorj to the ministry and tested him. As a result Elbegdorj won one out of only two full scholarships that came to the Ministry of Defense for enrollment to the Military Political Institute of the USSR in Lviv (Ukraine) where he earned his BA in Military Journalism, Summa Cum Laude in 1988. "

unsourced. According to this source, he was able to study in Lemberg because he had led a Revolutionary Youth Leage group in the army. That he led such a group, though not that this was the reason for him being sent to Lemberg, is also stated in his brief biography on the DP website. Yaan (talk) 14:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Your source is incorrect. I have newspapers in my hand that the above is sourced. Compbok (talk) 03:06, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

I hope you understand that I can't just take your word for it. That Elbegdorj lead a Youth Leage cell in the army is from his short biography on the DP site, I don't think you are going to put this into question, too? Yaan (talk) 12:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Business and Media activities

"Elbegdorj founded Mongolia’s first independent newspaper “Ardchilal” (Democracy) and worked as its Editor-in-Chief in1990. During his work as the editor-in-chief Elbegdorj spread information on core values of democracy to Mongolian people and advertised that every Mongolian should have all rights and freedom defined the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which resulted in changes to social thinking of Mongolia."

No source for Ardchilal not being a party newspaper. No source for Elbegdorj changing the way Mongolians think. Yaan (talk) 15:26, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Democracy is not a party newspaper. Please come to Mongolia's Supreme court registration of the first Ардчилал newspaper if needed. Compbok (talk) 06:14, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Seems like reporters without borders has a different opinion: "Four journalists and opposition party members - including Tseren-Ochir, editor in chief of Ardchilal (Democracy), the newspaper of the opposition Democratic Party - were arrested on the night of 12 November while covering a peaceful demonstration against the land ownership law." Yaan (talk) 12:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the first non-communist newspaper since 1910-ies was "Shine Toli" (New Mirror) published by Sanjaasurengiin Zorig (the name was derived from the name of the 1913 newspaper which was considered to be the first newspaper in Mongolia). Please see this interview for more information. It contains more truthful information about the newspapers "Ardchilal" and "Shine Toli". Elbegdorj, of course, has had hand in founding the newspaper "Ardchilal", because he was one of the leaders of the Mongolian Democratic Union. But "Ardchilal" was not the first one, "Shine Toli" was published before "Ardchilal".--GenuineMongol (talk) 03:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you happen to have a link to the interview? And actually I still wonder whether Ardchilal is a party newspaper or not. Or should the article just state something like that Ardchilal was one of the first non-state owned newspapers? Yaan (talk) 12:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, the link is here: Montsame interview --GenuineMongol (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Shine Toli was issued before Ardchilal. If Ardchilal wasn't a party newspaper, then was it the newspaper of the Mongolian Democratic Union, which was not a party? Gantuya eng (talk) 09:09, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Political career

"Elbegdorj founded and worked as the head of Mongolia's first Entrepreneurs Association, which helped to privatize livestock free to their herders from the socialist collectives in 1991. Largely thanks to privatization, heads of livestock in Mongolia reached more than 42 million by 2008. The number had never reached more than 25 million during the socialist years of three quarter century.;"

Elbegdorj's role in the privatization is unsourced. I personally also think that portraying the increase in lifestock numbers as an uncontroversial success might not be entirely appropriate, as a lot of people complain it leads to overgrazong and degradation of pasture. This is not a critique of the privatization itself, just about the way he consequences are portrayed here. Yaan (talk) 14:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

On another note, the reference to 70 years of socialism seems not particularly meaningful. Official lifestock count in 1918 was less than 10 million, in 1924 less than 14 million. So 24+ million does not look so bad in comparison.

More meaningful would probably be to compare lifestock numbers during the time when Mongolia's agriculture was collectivized, i.e. from the late 1950s on. Yaan (talk) 12:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

First term as prime minister

overview

"During his term, he made crucial steps in solving the nation’s pressing economic, political, structural and social issues, and firmly continued its open foreign policy. Those are as following: Elbegdorj co-initiated Law on Press Freedom and he played a key role to pass the law in 1998. Based on this law, another law passed that changed all daily state newspapers into public newspapers without direct control and censorship from the government."

unsourced. Yaan (talk) 14:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Sourced. Compbok (talk) 06:15, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Where? Yaan (talk) 12:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

tax collection

"Elbegdorj's most significant achievement during his first term as Prime Minister was to collect tax and create tax income."

unsourced. And I don't think he collected any tax himself. Yaan (talk) 14:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Sourced. He guided to collect tax. Government collects tax i.e. government led by Elbegdorj. Compbok (talk) 06:15, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

The bureaucracy collects tax. And I still don't see a source. Yaan (talk) 12:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Erdenet

"The biggest tax payer and only significant income contributor to the government's budget at the time was the copper ore mining and processing Erdenet Mining Corporation (EMC) - a joint stock company owned by the governments of Mongolia and the Russian Federation. EMC hadn't paid due tax, income and royalty to Mongolia's government between 1997-1998 which resulted in the government financial crumbling. "

again unsourced. Yaan (talk) 14:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Sourced. Compbok (talk) 06:15, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Where? Yaan (talk) 12:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Erdenet cont.

"Because of this, the previous Prime Minister Enkhsaikhan stepped down due to pressure from the opposition party, the MPRP. After becoming Prime Minister, Elbegdorj ordered an audit of EMC. The audit result revealed that the state due income did not enter the state account, instead it went to dubious accounts of directors at the EMC. This corruption related case was reported in detail in investigative series “Swindle of the Century” on Eagle television. Elbegdorj dismissed the EMC's chairman. As a result, the government began to receive due tax, royalty and income from the EMC."

The only relevant statement from the source seems to be "Eagle's coverage included a six-part series in 2000 titled "Swindle of the Century" that looked at claims of corruption at the state-owned Erdenet copper mine, Mongolia's biggest business. Much of the criticism in the report was aimed at the former ruling party.". So, essentially the section is, IMHO, unsourced. Yaan (talk) 14:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Relevant and sourced. Please watch the series. Compbok (talk) 06:15, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

The source you give is not the TV series. And I am quite sceptical a TV series from several years back would comply with WP:VERIFY. Yaan (talk) 12:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I was the General Manager of Eagle TV at the time "Swindle of the Century" was produced. The one error I see here is that this documentary was NOT aired on Eagle TV although it was produced there. It WAS aired on Mongolia's State TV. Paul Swartzendruber, pdruber@yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.12.240.236 (talk) 22:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Reconstruction bank

"In addition, at the recommendations of international financial institutions such as International Monetary Fund and the World Bank - aid granters to Mongolia, and discount interest rate loan giver Asian Development Bank, Elbegdorj made a decision to sell state owned Reconstruction Bank which became not liquid and experiencing enormous loss, the biggest financial burden to the economy since its establishment in 1997. At that time Golomt bank was the sole private commercial bank in Mongolia and it was the only one that offered to buy Reconstruction Bank. "

I don't think a blog post from Mongolia's minister of finance at that time (i.e. someone probably quite involved in the decision) is a reliable source for these statements. So, essentially unsourced. Yaan (talk) 14:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Sourced. There are other newspapers published at that time on the story in Mongolian. In addition, people who were there knew much better than who were not there. Compbok (talk) 06:15, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Again, a blog pots from someone involved with that merger is not a reliable source. Yaan (talk) 12:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

This description of the Reconstruction Bank affair is wrong from top to bottom. That bank was a problem, but was far from the biggest financial burden on the economy. The IMF World Bank and ADB had nothing to do with the decision to let Golomt take it over; they would never have recommended such a thing -- the then Finance Minister was simply trying to blame them. And the article does not mention that Golomt was owned by leading Democratic politicians, which was a main reason why this was so controversial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madman999 (talk • contribs) 08:51, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Hear hear. It would be nice to have some good sources on that, though (except on Golomt being owned by Lu. Bold. This is unlikely to be disputed, I think). I have Rossabi's From Khans to Commissars to Capitalists, but this work seems to be considered too unreliable by some editors. Yaan (talk) 13:36, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

resignation

"In response to this and the change of EMC's chairman, the minority group at the Parliament MPRP demanded Elbegdorj to resign and resulted Elbegdorj to lose confidence vote at the Parliament. The Parliament had prevented Elbegdorj's government from selling the bank. Elbegdorj's decision to sell the Reconstruction Bank was proven to be correct. Because the bank bankrupted not long after Elbegdorj's first term as prime minister was over and the bankruptcy led the government to suffer enormous amount of financial loss."

again, unsourced (esp "biggest loss", "proven correct", "resulted Elbegdorj to lose"). It was not just the MPRP that voted against Elbegdorj. Yaan (talk) 14:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

sourced. How do you know MPRP so well? Compbok (talk) 06:19, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

You little detective. The reason I know the MPRP so well is that I am Enkhbayar's son-in-law.

But back to the topic: guess there is something wrong with my eyes, but I don't see any reference for the statement above. Yaan (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

wrestling palace

"Moreover, Elbegdorj assisted Mongolia's first Wrestling Palace which was half built for a long time to be completely built during his first term as a Prime Minister. "

unsourced. Yaan (talk) 14:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

There is the interview of the palace on Mongolian daily newspapers. Compbok (talk) 06:15, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

where? Yaan (talk) 11:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

search for successor

"He stayed in office until December 9, because of the disagreements of the Parliament and the President for a new Prime Minister, as the President vetoing proposals from the Democratic Party’s majority. Finally, in December the President agreed to the parliament's proposal on Janlavyn Narantsatsralt, former Mayor of Ulaanbaatar as Prime Minister, and Elbegdorj stepped down."

I think Zorig's murder case may have played a role in why the search for a successor took so long. This is not to insinuate anything, I just think it is an important event and related to the duration of Elbegdorj's term as acting prime minister. Yaan (talk) 14:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Possibly, but do we have sources for such an analysis? --Latebird (talk) 13:16, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

point taken. Yaan (talk) 11:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The fact is that President Bagabandi didn't approve Da.Ganbold (DP) for seven times. Democratic Union Coalition was proposing Da.Ganbold to the President at that time. It is not Zorig's murder case related. Another thing is many Mongolian analysts consider MPRP and Enkhbayar are in connection with the assassination of Zorig as they benefited a lot and they didn't find the murderer as promised in 2000 elections. We can include this in MPRP and Enkhbayar article if necessary. --Compbok (talk) 06:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

You can look for a reliable source first. Yaan (talk) 11:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Second term as prime minister

trivia

"as the second person to hold this office twice."

This is just trivia. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It is a part of history not trivia. --Compbok (talk) 06:26, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Show us how it is not trivia. And I think I count at least three PMs who served during more than one legislative period: Amar, Tsedenbal, Batmunh. Yaan (talk) 11:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

fighting hard

"He fought hard against corruption as he said in the opening of the spring session of the parliament on April 8, 2005 "We will identify the causes and then bulldoze the corruption." "

Holding a speech is not fighting against corruption. It is also not necessarily hard. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

He fought harder than anyone in Mongolia. Remember the Otgonbileg case (Erdenet scandal) and Baatar's case (Custom's corruption). --GenuineMongol (talk) 02:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with GenuineMongol. It is well publicized in Mongolia. All Mongolians know these cases. --Compbok (talk) 02:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

But you agree that holding a speech is not the same as implementing meaningful measures against corruption? And that it is not particularly hard in most cases? Yaan (talk) 11:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Do we have verifiable and independent sources confirming that he actually was (at least somewhat) successful in those efforts? And please, never ever try to use "all Mongolans know" as an argument again. We don't need rumours and popular myths, we need verifiable sources. --Latebird (talk) 22:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Bush visit

"President George W. Bush visited Mongolia on November 21, 2005, and made a speech in the State House, Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia in front of Mongolian leaders and public in which he praised Mongolia's democracy and the ones who brought the democracy particularly Mongolia's Prime Minister Elbegdorj Tsakhia. In an interview with NBC News, Elbegdorj said "We (Mongolia) are trying to contribute to the global effort to combat terrorism.”"

This is already mentioned below and probably does not need to be mentioned twice, or in such great detail. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It has the reference and it should be mentioned. What's your reason only to include something only you want. Compbok (talk) 06:27, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

My reason is that this is already mentioned below, and nothing of what Elbegdorj said that day was especially surprising. But I don't think it is me who has to give a reason here. See WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Yaan (talk) 11:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

a New Yorker

"Elbegdorj also cautioned against states taking "draconian measures" against their own populations "in the name of the fight against terrorism." However, Elbegdorj concluded by saying just as former U.S. President John F. Kennedy "became a Berliner" so "after September 11, 2001, we all have become New Yorkers" to international NGO leaders and former state leaders at "Global Violence: Crisis and Hope" Assembly of the World Association of Non-Governmental Organizations in New York City in October 2001."

This is from 2001! I have no idea what it has to do with Elbegdorj's second term in office. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

History is history. You can't delete something important because time lapsed. Compbok (talk) 06:41, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

It is mentioned together with Bush's visit, when in fact all of this was said four (!) years earlier. And I don't think everything Elbegdorj says and does is history. Yaan (talk) 11:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

In what context is this random bon mot relevant other than to make Elbegdorj "sound cool"? It obviously has nothing at all to do with Bush's visit, so there's no point in mentioning it together with that. --Latebird (talk) 23:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Elbegdor's achievements

"Elbegdorj was instrumental in establishing legislation on freedom of press by initiating, co-drafting and submitting draft of Law on Public Radio and Televisions which passed on January 27, 2005. By the law, the state controlled National State Television and Radio converted into formally independent organisations with increasingly smaller control by the government. Moreover, he co-initiated and drafted Amendment to Law on Rules of Demonstration and Public Gatherings. By the passed amendment on November 17, 2005 public demonstration and gathering began to be allowed legally on Sukhbaatar Square-main square of the capital."

Neither source mentions Elbegdorj's role in these decisions. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Mongolian mass media published it enough. Compbok (talk) 06:44, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Then just give us a source. Yaan (talk) 11:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I'll give source. Compbok (talk) 12:10, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

state media

"During his tenure in government, the formerly state run newspapers, TV, and radio stations were converted into formally independent "

incomplete sentence. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

completed now. Compbok (talk) 06:45, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

highest revenue, children benefit

"Elbegdorj improved economy by highest revenue in Mongolian history and began to issue monthly stipends to all children and considerably increased pensions to seniors."

unsourced, and according to this source children's benefit was only approved in June 2006, several months after Elbegdorj had been forced to resign. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It's sourced. Children's money began when Elbegdorj was in office. Compbok (talk) 12:11, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

The source above claims the contrary, and you have yet to come up with something to show it is wrong. Yaan (talk) 13:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

more achievements

"He subsidized and supported technical schools and specialized professions to reduce unemployment. To promote affordable computers and internet access, he established Information and Communication Agency under the government. As a result of the work, computers became affordable and common rather than rare luxury as they were. He attempted to strengthen domestic businesses by reducing the administrative overhead, by eliminating excessive regulations, many licensing requirements, and import taxes for key product categories. "

Source seems to not even mention Elbegdorj's name. I guess some of these decisions may have been made while he was in office, but even then it does not mean Elbegdorj did all of this alone (there still was a cabinet and a parliament at that time, no?). Also, computers have become cheaper all around the world, income levels in Mongolia have risen, unless you can say what specifically that Information and Communication Agency did to make computers cheaper, I think one source is just not enough for this kind of claim. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

These issues were parts of the official policy of his cabinet. If something is done by the government when someone was Prime Minister of that government/cabinet, then that thing should be credited to the Prime Minister. There MUST be a sentence like "Under his leadership, this and that is done".--GenuineMongol (talk) 03:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

"During his term in office"-like stuff is completely OK for me. But Compbok seems to insist all of this was decided by Elbegdorj alone, as if Elbegdorj was some kind of absolute ruler rather than the head of a coalition government. Yaan (talk) 11:38, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

It is as it was said by newspapers not by me. Please don't attack personally on me.Please check the referenceCompbok (talk) 12:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Show me where I attacked you. I checked your source. As mentioned above, it does not even contain Elbegdorj's name. Yaan (talk) 13:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

GSP+ programme

"Elbegdorj made a Free Trade Agreement with the European Union and Mongolia was accepted into the APS agreement together with other 15 development countries, which makes it possible to export most goods to the European Union without customs duties."

This is not an agreement, but an EU programme. I.e. a rather unilateral thing, not bi- or multilateral as agreement. EU gives, EU can take again. Once, I don't see what role Elbegdorj personally is supposed to have played. Besides, APS is the German name, in English it is called GSP+. And I think this fits better under "foreign relations". Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

But, hey even this "unilateral thing" needs input from the other country. --GenuineMongol (talk) 03:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The requirements are outlined here. Just to clarify, I am not against mentioning that Mongolia was accepted into this programme (though in another part of the article), I am more worried about the "Elbegdorj made a Free Trade Agreement with the European Union" stuff. I am just not convinced such an agreement exists. Yaan (talk) 11:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

If you are not convinced, why don't you contact with Mongolia's Ministry of External Relations to be convinced. The agreement has been talked a lot all over mass media in Mongolia. Compbok (talk) 12:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the relevant source would be somewhere between www.europa.eu. And you are the one who needs to back up your claims with sources. Yaan (talk) 13:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

russian was mongolia's official second language

"By Elbegdorj’s government decision English became the foreign language taught in public schools instead of Russian which was official second language of Mongolia for almost seven decades."

I would like to see a source for Russian being Mongolia's official second language. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Without twisting the language, why can't you propose a sound sentence like "English replaced Russian as the first foreign language to be taught in public schools". Not a good cooperation from your side. --GenuineMongol (talk) 03:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I replaced the statement above with "By decision of his government English became the foreign language taught in public schools instead of Russian." I admit there maybe should be a comma before "instead", and that "the" should be something like "the first", but otherwise I don't really understand how I failed to cooperate. Yes, I think your wording is better. Yaan (talk) 11:30, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Harhorin

"Elbegdorj initiated and began the work to build Genghis Khan's monument complex in front of the State House instead of mausoleum. Elbegdorj played a role at the initiatives to restore Genghis Khan's established capital Khar Khorum as a cultural and tourist town."

I think we can mention that the eventual goal was to relocate the capital there. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Good suggestion.--GenuineMongol (talk) 03:07, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

by-election against enhbold

"Elbegdorj withdrew his parliamentary member’s candidacy for by-elections in the 65th constituency of Ulan Bator as a result of the cooperation agreement between Democratic Party and MPRP on August 2, 2005 to save the grand coalition government after the Democratic Coalition split by Mendsaikhany Enkhsaikhan, paving the way for Ulaanbaatar's mayor Miyeegombyn Enkhbold (MPRP) to become a member of parliament."

I think this sentence is not particularly easy to comprehend for the average English reader. Maybe better split up, leave out the bit about Enkhsaikhan which seems not as important here as the bit about the MPRP threats. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Other English readers understand this. Compbok (talk) 06:47, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

My point was not "There exists at least one English speaker who understands this", it was "This sentence is not particularly easy to comprehend for the average English reader." Yaan (talk) 11:24, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not meant to be understandable to academics only. In any language, once a sentence contains more than roughly a dozen words, we lose about half our readers, and more with each additional word. That sentence above has 59 words. That means that probably 90% of our audience will not be able to comprehend it the first time they read it. In other words: This is bad English and needs to be fixed. --Latebird (talk) 01:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

elbegdorj's fall and allegations of corruption against MPRP

"Despite the coalition agreement, the MPRP withdrew their ministers from the cabinet on January 13, 2006 breaching its agreement with DP, forcing Elbegdorj to resign. The MPRP proceeded to form a new government with the help of DP defectors and independent MPs. The parliament approved Enkhbold as the new prime minister on January 25^th 2006. The events triggered protests from some civic groups and their followers, as well as corruption allegations against high ranking MPRP members.;"

The "corruption allegations against high ranking MPRP members." is not sourced. The alleged source is from November 2005, i.e. from before the event that allegedly triggered the allegations. Yaan (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It is sourced. Please check Mongolian media outlets. MPRP accepted that through its conference. MPRP board members criticized that 56 out of 80 people being examined by Board against Corruption are MPRP officials. Compbok (talk) 03:01, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Then give a source. The claim here is not "There have been allegations of corruption against the MPRP at some point in the past", but "[The MPRP's decision to leave the coalition with the DP] triggered [...] corruption allegations against high ranking MPRP members." Yaan (talk) 11:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

International relations

korean refugees

"Elbegdorj supported the acceptance of North Korean refugees, who arrive in Mongolia through China and eventually move on to South Korea."

The source is from 2003, before Elbegdorj became PM. During his term in office, North Korea re-opened its embassy in Ulaanbaatar, so I don't think it is very obvious that Elbegdorj would keep his opinion after getting int office. Besides, I don't think this was a very important part of Elbegdorj's foreign policy. Yaan (talk) 14:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It is important and sourced. Compbok (talk) 06:48, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

How is it important, and where is the source for this still being his opinion after he took office? Politicians sometimes change their position, especially often upon taking an office. Yaan (talk) 11:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

How do you know he changed his position, then? Do you think you are in Elbegdorj's shoes? We should rely on references. North Korea is important because whole world is seeing to North Korea now. Also it is a part of Mongolia's external relations. Compbok (talk) 12:17, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know wether he changed his position or not. All I know is the source is from 2003, and is given as a reference for Elbegdorj's opinion in 2004. The reason everybody is looking to North Korea now is, btw, not refugees. Yaan (talk) 13:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

agreed to send troops to iraq

"Elbegdorj agreed to send a contingent of Mongolian forces to Iraq in support of the international peace keeping efforts in 2005."

The link does not work. Besides, this give the impression that Elbegdorj decided to send troops to Iraq, when in fact the decision had already been made in 2003. Yaan (talk) 14:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but he agreed to continue keeping a contingent of Mongolian force to Iraq. Actually, this decision was backed by two main parties back in 2003. In other words, it was a kind of bipartisan decision. --GenuineMongol (talk) 03:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

But Elbegdorj was not even in parliament then. I guess one could mention that he did not pull out the troops, as happened after government changes in other countries. But giving the impression the whole thing was his idea is not acceptable. And in any case, the year is wrong.

On another point, could the word "international peace keeping efforts" be somewhat POV? Yaan (talk) 11:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

"international peace keeping efforts" is an internationally accepted neutral term. Compbok (talk) 12:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I know the term is internationally accepted. But I don't think it is internationally accepted, or neutral, for describing what happened in Iraq since 2003. I think the most common term is "Iraq War". Incidentically, this is also the term Wikipedia uses. Yaan (talk) 13:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Burma

"Elbegdorj supported the international appeals to release Burmese democracy activist and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aung San Suu Kyi from house arrest and several Members of the Parliament of Myanmar those have been imprisoned since they were elected to the parliament in 2005.; "

Again, I don't think this was a very important part of Elbegdorj's foreign policy. Yaan (talk) 14:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

May be, but his act on Aung San Suu Kyi's issue should be mentioned in the article. --GenuineMongol (talk) 03:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

But why? was it widely reported in the media at the time? Did he back up this statement recently? Yaan (talk) 11:17, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes he is. Mongolia is a part of international community. It was in New York Times recently. Yaan, why do you want to edit this article if you don't know anything about Elbegdorj and the world affairs at all. Just, please don't bother to edit then. Compbok (talk) 12:21, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's your business to tell other editors to back off. You have shown yourself ignorant enough. Re. that New York Times article, no article of that name seems to turn up in the archives since 1981, and the one article that at least contains the words "Burma can't wait" does not seem to contain Elbegdorj's name. Yaan (talk) 13:05, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

2008 political unrest

court decisions

"All of the three level courts – court of primary jurisdiction, appellate and the Supreme Court of Mongolia proved that Mongolia’s General Elections Committee chairman Battulga (MPRP) made decisions violating the Law on Elections that became the major cause of the nationwide elections irregularities that might have changed the elections result by which MPRP won."

The source here is an interview from the DP party website, not from Udriin sonin. I don't think this kind of source is acceptable here. Yaan (talk) 13:54, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, other sources can be found. So, let's keep this fact here and find another source. Don't remove it until then. --GenuineMongol (talk) 03:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Just keep in mind we have several claims here:

• courts of all three levels of Mongolia's judicative system decided (do courts prove something?) that the GEC chairman (not the whole GEC) made decisions violating the Law on Elections
• courts of all three levels of Mongolia's judicative system decided that the GEC chairman's decisions resulted in nationwide irregularities, and
• courts of all three levels of Mongolia's judicative system decided that the irregularities caused by the GEC chairman might have changed the election results.

I personally also think a fuller picture could be got from looking at what irregularities the DP initially alleged, and which ones were proven in court. But I guess finding useful sources for the claims above would be a good start. Yaan (talk) 11:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, court proves something. Court is justice. You simply want to smear Elbegdorj. That's why you try to negate court systems. There are plenty of sources on this anyway. Compbok (talk) 12:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't negate anything. I want to see reliable sources - sources that you so far have failed to provide. That's all. Yaan (talk) 12:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Court already issued its decisions. The fact is that President Enkhbayar's state of emergency five people shot by police witnessed by wounded victims as in dozens of interviews. Why court decision and interviews of these people can't be resources? Compbok (talk) 02:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Repeating those statements doesn't replace the necessity of presenting sources. Actually, this case is quite tricky, because the court orders are primary sources, which aren't sufficient by themselfes. We need independent and reliable secondary and/or tertiary sources to interpret their significance. To understand the difference (and many other related issues), please study WP:RS carefully. The problem with interviews has already been explained. They usually present more opinions than facts. --Latebird (talk) 21:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

detailed description of the riots

"Civil movement party and Republican party leaders went to MPRP building to give MPRP chairman and Prime Minister Sanjaagiin Bayar a demand to recount the ballots on July 1 after MPRP announced its victory. But Bayar refused to get the paper and the people were not let into MPRP building. People gathered in front of MPRP building demanding MPRP to recount the ballots. MPRP building was protected by the police. The demonstration prolonged and turned into riot and in the midnight President Nambaryn Enkhbayar announced the State of Emergency during which the police shot five civilians to death from their backs and injured many to disability from bullet wounds. A wounded innocent teenager and witnesses confirmed that they were shot by the police. In addition, the police acknowledged its shooting against civilians and usage of rubber bullets in their guns.; Elbegdorj repeatedly demanded from the MPRP chairing Government to account responsibility for the ones who gave orders to shoot civilians and murderers of the victims which haven’t been done yet."

Again, I don't think a detailed description of the riots or how they developed (why no mention of the DP rally on Sukhbaatar square the same day?) is important here. Moreover, I don't think it is appropriate to give the impression that it is completely clear who shot those four people (AFAIK one person died in the MPRP building from suffocation). Yaan (talk) 13:54, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, I think it is not completely irrelevant that the rioters burnt down the MPRP headquarters and damaged and looted the cultural palace. Yaan (talk) 15:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

You seem to favor the MPRP-sided facts, while trying to keep out the DP-sided facts. It is called POV. --GenuineMongol (talk) 03:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I did not know facts can take sides. Can you please tell me which fact mentioned above supports the DP, and which one supports the MPRP.

The reason I wanted to cut this short is because I think the exact course of the riot is not very relevant here. If you think omitting the exact course of the riots will result in a one-sided POV, we can of course also give a fuller account. But I'd like to see some rationale. Yaan (talk) 10:24, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

You kept pushing your part, deleting the court decisions, then all should be included to explain the whole picture.

Otherwise, it can't give full information. Therefore, everything should be in here. It can't be explained in one sentence. Compbok (talk) 12:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I pushed nothing. Yes, I deleted some statements that were not reliably sourced. Why don't you just give us some sources first before reverting and reverting again? Yaan (talk) 12:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

evaluation of elbegdorj's claims by intl. observers, aftermath

I think it needs to be mentioned that international observers called the election mostly free and fair, that Elbegdorj's role was criticized at least from the political opponent, that the DP finally entered a coalition with the MPRP, and that Elbegdorj resigned from his post as party chairman. Yaan (talk) 13:54, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

All level of courts proved that 2008 elections had irregularities done by elections commissions specially by the General Elections Commission's chairman Battulga(MPRP). Mongolia is governed by law and its court as other countries. Therefore, court decisions overwrite an "observation."

Compbok (talk) 06:43, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

International experts called the Moldovan elections free and fair too. How diligent are they? Gantuya eng (talk) 05:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

And what? If opposition demonstrates lack of political resposibility is it a sign of int.observers inadvertence? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 13:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

They are the best independent source we have. The general finding in Mongolia was that interviewed voters (all over the country) said: "In our district, everything went alright, but in the other districts, they all cheat!". In other words, people didn't trust their peers elsewhere, but very little evidence of actual cheating was found. --Latebird (talk) 13:32, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The court has already established major violation in election process, i.e. found the decision of the Election Committee to allow non-registered voters vote. This is one of the major irregularities in the election. Besides, how can international observers establish that the votes are counted accurately and truly. They could observe only voting process. --GenuineMongol (talk) 03:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, court decision and peaceful opposition leader election as new Mongolian President are the signs of the democracy presence, real democracy, not imitation as in Russia and numerous CIS countries. If mr.Elbegdorj wins with 51% - every dictator can change a couple of % to revert 51 to 49, but this was not done. It is a good sign of the healthy politics in the country. But before the crisis ruling party possibly had more voters, I guess.Bogomolov.PL (talk) 08:05, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Mongolian analysts claim that Mr.Elbegdorj won by actual 81.24 percent because there is elections irregularities occuring from 15-30 percent proven in previous elections done by MPRP in elections unit levels. It means 81.24 percent - max.30 percent irregularities =51.24 percent. It is not as you think. Compbok (talk) 08:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

This thread is for the 2008 elections. If you want to claim Elbegdorj won not by 51%, but by 61, 71, 81, 91, or 101%, please find some non-fringe source. IIRC pre-election surveys were pretty close. Yaan (talk) 10:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Re. court decisions, if they are relevant, they should of course be mentioned. But we need a non-DP source for what whcih court actually decided, plus a non-DP source about whether the irregularities had an impact on the outcome of the election. Yaan (talk) 10:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Court decision itself is a non DP source. Even if it is from DP website, DP can't inform court decision in a biased way. It is not allowed for individuals and organizations to inform court decision in other way. Therefore, it is acceptable here. Compbok (talk) 12:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

an interview is not a court decision. If the court decision can be found on the DP website, fine for me. What the DP is allowed to do and what not is not very relevant here - an interview on the party website is still no independent source. Yaan (talk) 12:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

NGO activities

international stage

"On the international stage, Elbegdorj worked as an advisor to the United Nations "Millennium Development Goal" Project in New York City, and for the Broadcasting Board of Governors in Washington DC in 2003."

This is completely unsourced. Yaan (talk) 13:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

This is sourced. Compbok (talk) 06:49, 02 June 2009 (UTC)

Where? Yaan (talk) 09:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

frequent lecturer both in Mongolia and abroad

"Elbegdorj is a frequent lecturer at many public and private institutions and universities, both in Mongolia and abroad, on topics including transitional issues and the new challenges of international security, freedom and development.; ; "

The sources are about one campaign speech and one lecture abroad. This is not "many". Besides, it is not notable: this is what politicians normally do. It could be notable if he was retired and made a living out of it (like Bill Clinton, Michail Gorbachev etc do). But he is still active. Yaan (talk) 13:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll research and add more sources in few days. Compbok (talk) 12:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Political affiliation

"- which conducts parallel policies with western Republican parties, mainly the US Republican party and the British Conservatives. "

the Republican party and the British conservatives do not promise massive cash presents to the population in their election campaigns. Such cash transfers were important parts of the DP campaigns in 2004 and 2008. I conclude the statement is nonsense. Yaan (talk) 13:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we should confuse election tactics (similar in all parties) with the fundamental policies set forth in party programmes. --Latebird (talk) 13:35, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

DP promised in 2008 shares in the mining companies, not cash. MPRP promised enormous amount of cash as counter-maneuver. Gantuya eng (talk) 13:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, DP promised shares, while MPRP promised cash. --GenuineMongol (talk) 16:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I still don't think such promises are typical for US Republicans or British conservatives. And the children's benefit promised in 2004 (120,000 MNT p.a.) was supposed to be a cash transfer from the start.

Of course if we can find a source for the DP claiming to follow policies similar to those of the Republicans or the Tories, we can write that the DP claims to follow such policies, but at the moment the statement is unsourced, some key policies look rather different, and he seems to be compared to Mr. Obama much more frequently than to Mr. Bush. Yaan (talk) 09:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Shoe

Any opinions on whether this is notable? Yaan (talk) 15:59, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Not at all. A drunkard threw a shoe. What's notable about it? --GenuineMongol (talk) 03:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

That was simply hooliganism, no political significance. Gantuya eng (talk) 05:05, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Mr.Elbegdorj yastan

His births place is populated with zakhchin yastan, are the sources of the Mr.Elbegdorj or his family yastan? Here he is named a Zakhchin, but better are selfidentification claims. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 08:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Bogomolov, you are correct. By Mongolian mass media information, he is zakhchin yastan. Compbok (talk) 08:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

But does he somewhere said he is Zakhchin? Media can not decide about smb yastan but the person itself. Not everybody born in German is a German, I guess. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 08:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

There is an article in the German constitution about when - for the purposes of said constitution anyway - you are a German (Art. 116 GG).

Re. Elbegdorj's case, it seems the MPRP tried to play the "you are half Chinese" card(in German), so I guess it would be possible to at least find sources for Elbegdorj's ethnic affiliation that are quite close to him. Yaan (talk) 16:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

About Germany - my frend was born in Soviet troops officer family in E.Berlin - he is not an ethnic German, you see.

About mr.Elbegdorj ethnicity nobody can decide, himself only. But even if 1/2 Chinese - his selfidentification decides.

I can understand why it was so important to some participants to place as possible more detailes about mr.Elbegdorj parents. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 18:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but I am not so sure if it is a good idea to go into full detail without explaining why. It is a bit like writing "Obama is Christian" in the lead section of his article. Of course this became a topic during the election campaign, but writing it without a hint to the Republicans seems a bit off (yes, I think this "you are Chinese" stuff makes the MPRP, not Elbegdorj, look bad)

Doesn't your friend have his ethnicity written into his passport? :)

I guess Mr. Elbegdorj's self-identification may well simply be "Mongol". But (more generally spoken) I am not so sure if really self-identification is the only important factor. If I decide tomorrow that I am Russian, does it make me Russian? Or shouldn't I at least find some other people (esp. Russians) who agree with me? Yaan (talk) 12:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

In Russia (and USSR) ethnicity was written in a passport. He was Russian of course as legally his parents could select only father's or mother's ethnicity (if different). Censuses rules were selfidentification of the ethnicity by the person (or by the parents of the child).

If I decide tomorrow that I am Russian, does it make me Russian? Or shouldn't I at least find some other people (esp. Russians) who agree with me? - good question. My grandmother was German (from Germany), grand father Byelorussian (Russiam mother tongue), other grandfather Finnish (Russiam mother tongue) and grandmother Russian - who I am?

I think the ethnicity (sexual or cultural or political orientation) can be a private question, isn't it? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Elbegdorj's situation (and that of most Mognolians) is probably less ambiguous than yours. If several (many?) media report him to be zakhchin, and there's no contradiction, then I think we can accept that. --Latebird (talk) 21:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Photo

Professional photographers entered commons wikimedia photos on Elbegdorj. Why can't we add these up-to-date photos. Please don't remove the new photo all the time as you are doing. People become older. I think it is important to keep wikipedia with up-to-date - photos specially on the first photo in the article. Compbok (talk) 01:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

No problem with the photos as such, now that their permission has been confirmed via OTRS (sadly he doesn't look very healthy nowadays). But when you add them in one edit together with many controversial changes, then there's no easy way to treat them seperately. Better to proceed one step and one topic at a time. --Latebird (talk) 08:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Compbok (talk) 01:23, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

NPOV tags

I have placed two NPOV tags because

-the section "First term as prime minister" fails to mention who are the owners of Golomt bank and who voted Elbegdorj out of office

-the section "2008 political unrest" fails to mention that

• international observers described the election as more or less fair (Instead, we get a lot of weasel words sourced from a partisan source),

• the MPRP building was burnt down and other buildings were damaged,

• after the riots, Elbegdorj resigned from several party posts,

• in the end, MPRP and DP formed a coalition government.

Of course all of this has been discussed before, see the long and tiring discussions above.

Yaan (talk) 15:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

2008 Riots

This revert was done by User:Goldcup1 with a comment "as BBC's account of Bogomolov is biased - not the reality - only Russia's wanted disguise of hiding its participation". I'd reverted BBC information back, as it reflects reality of this day (and night), and BBC is a relevant source. If collegue User:Goldcup1 would like to add informations about Russia's participation in this events using relevant independent sources - this contribution will be welcomed. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 10:29, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

User:Goldcup1 reverted again BBC informations with a new comment "BBC is not necessarily to be the source of originality or facts - it informed on hearsay not on reality". Bogomolov.PL (talk) 07:03, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

A year ago 2008 riot in Mongolia article was created, I didn't contribute in this article. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 13:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Removal of that material was unjustified. I have added it again and warned the user. BBC is a highly reputable and independent source. As long as we don't have an independent source of equivalent quality contradicting them, the information will stay here. --Latebird (talk) 23:04, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted information (again) about some court decisions, because they are not directly relevant to the person Elbegdorj, the topic of this article. If User:Goldcup1 wants to argue how they are helpful in understanding the person, then he is welcome to present his arguments here in this discussion. --Latebird (talk) 00:30, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Much more helpful would be an explanation of mr.Elbegdorj resignation after this July 2008 riot. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 09:02, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

When I see Latebird's message I realize that why are we all discussing about 2008 riot in this article. It should be a separate article then. Because it has no connection to this article. Please create a separate article on that and let's discuss it there. I don't know how to create a new article and therefore, removed that part. Goldcup1 (talk) 18:10, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You know how to use the search functionality on Wikipedia, don't you? The article 2008 riot in Mongolia has existed for almost a year now. --Latebird (talk) 18:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

But mr.Elbegdorj participation in the 2008 elections, his activity in riots period, his resignation - all these topics would be useful here, in this article. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:04, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the incident should be mentioned, and his role in it explained. But that probably doesn't justify more than a short paragraph here. --Latebird (talk) 19:48, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, in this article we need mr.Elbegdorj activity and political position, but riots detailes and political background should be placed in the respective article. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 20:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I have restored an older version for now, because I think it is significant for this article that the MPRP accused Elbegdorj to have incited the riots, and also that he resigned his DP chairmanship afterwards and that he was the only DP MP to speak out against the coalition with the MPRP. I believe this is better than mentioning nothing about this at all. Maybe the wording is not yet optimal, but I think it is difficult to leave the question of its legitimacy out altogether, since was accused by the MPRP to have contributed to the riot by his protest against the election results. Yaan (talk) 14:00, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I removed your addition related to the riot. Because the 2008 riot topic itself has not been resolved by Mongolia's justice system and Al Jazeera's hearsay news can not be accounted as an alibi to blame Elbegdorj for being the person inciting the riot. Because the 2008 elections riot has been being investigated by the Parliamentary committee and it has not come to its conclusion yet. The topic has been much debated by citizens, civil societies, and the parliament. Most of the population consider that the 2008 riot was an accomplice of the MPRP to conceal its elections fraud but on face to blame Elbegdorj. I checked the old revisions of the wikipedia as well as internet and found many info and links on that. If I include all parties' claims on 2008 riot to make the Al Jazeera's claim neutral, this article will become about 2008 riot only. Instead we can put the claims from all sides in the relevant 2008 political riot article in wikipedia. It is not the right article to put that one party's one claim. Thanks. Goldcup1 (talk) 22:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

It is not necessary to put up each and every claim in order to be completely neutral. It is sufficient to point out that Elbegdorj lost the elections and claimed there was fraud (just like the MPRP had done in 2004, if you will), and that international observers pointed out they had not witnessed any such thing. Btw. that is two different claims from two different sources, if I count correctly. And one of the two sources can even be assumed to be non-partisan.

I believe that Elbegdorj was accused (rightly or wrongly) to have contributed to the riot is very much relevant to this article, and that is why we need the section. This page is for the general reader who may not even have heard of the 2008 riots. Don't you think such a reader might get a wrong impression if there was no info on the riot at all? Actually, that, as you write, "the topic has been much debated by citizens, civil societies, and the parliament." is a reason to include it here, not one to ignore the topic.

Btw. I wonder how you know what most Mongolians think. Have there be representative surveys on the topic or can you just read other people's minds? Or do you believe all Mongolians have the same opinion as your friends? Honestly, the claim that a riot was provoked by the other side is so commonplace that if one were to take it seriously, one would have to wonder if there are any genuine riots at all.

Anyway, I will restore the section, but with some better sources on the findings of international observers.

Maybe if you could point out what exactly you think is not neutral enough it is easier to find a solution. Yaan (talk) 10:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

P.S. As you probably can guess by now, IMHO there are roughly the following POVs:

Elbegdorj on July 1st: 2008 elections were unfair (actually, some other DP politicians thought the same, as did some of the smaller parties, but maybe that is not so relevant here. Plus it is already mentioned that Elbegdorj was only one of several protesters)

International observers: Not from what we have seen (I guess the MPRP kind of had the same opinion, but that seems to obvious to state in the article)

MPRP: Your supporters burnt down our headquarters

Elbegdorj: Your police killed innocent people, and everything just happened because you provoked the protesters anyway (per interview in google cache)

Also some people from DP (?): Your state of emergency was unconstitutional (or something like that. this would also need a source, especially when Bat-Uul is on the record for calling the state of emergency the right thing at the time).

What Do you think?Yaan (talk) 12:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

It is not about thinking, it is about evidence. The evidence is that 5 people are dead not because of Elbegdorj, but because of police shot them dead and there are witnesses and evidences. The authority of that time all belong or used to belong to MPRP. We'd better base wikipedia on evidences not gossips or political accusations of one party for political gain. It is not dignifiable to chase gossips such as MPRP accusation. Members of parliament do not get responsibilities for their speech in duty as per S.Bayar. It is too naive that Elbegdorj's saying on TV that "Democratic Party considers that MPRP made elections fraud" caused the riot. Then why now for the same speech of Nambaryn Enkhbayar on TV recently did not cause riot? It is not necessary to checker up wikipedia with unproven accusations of political parties for political purposes. Rather we should add evidenced neutral facts. Goldcup1 (talk) 10:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Your, collegue Goldcup1, political experience can't be a reason to make any decisions in Wikipedia. We can cite relevant sources, but your conclusions are not supported with sources. You can help to make Wikipedia better providing relevant sources reflecting both MPRP and DP POV, but article body needs to be built using independent sources as it must be neutral. So foreign media observers reports are the best choise. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 11:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Look, I personally think that a lot of what Elbegdorj said before and after the riots is completely naive, but that doesn't mean we should not cover it here. Because one of the ideas of wikipedia is to let the reader make to conclusion, not the author. WP:NPOV does not say inconvenient or controversial topics should not be written about, but that all significant views should be represented "fairly, proportionately, and without bias." I believe the MPRP opinion about the riots is just as relevant as Elbegdorj's, and the findings of the international observers about the 2008 elections are at least as relevant as the opinions of those who lost the election.

Regarding why Enkhbayar's recent speeches on TV didn't cause anyone to riot, I guess one could find a lot of different explanations if one wanted to (people think one riot is enough, people now think politics is nonsense anyway, people already have got used to Enkhbayar not being president anymore, Enkhbayar has already acknowledged that he lost before, only few people have invested their money in election campaigns, Enkhbayar's main beef seems to be with his own party etc.) but that is not relevant here because it would be mere pointless speculation by wp editors. An accusation by the PM is obviously much more relevant. I am all for including any comments from Elbegdorj on that specific accusation in the article, but so far all his commentary I have seen on the issue almost seems to imply that burning a competing party's headquarters to the ground is the most normal thing in the world. Yaan (talk) 09:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Who is adding all these mongolian script names?

Who is adding all these mongolian script names? Cyrillic to mongolian script conversion is not a straightforward, one-to-one conversion. For example, Elbegdorj should be e-l-be-g-dor-ji --chinneeb-talk 06:52, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Who is adding all mongolian script name? Article history tells: User:Shrigley. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 09:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, I'd say that the Mongolian Latin alphabet part should be removed, the alphabet hasn't been used in decades. --chinneeb-talk 07:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)